“Would you favour a united Ireland?”

With Sinn Féin trying, again, to drum up interest in the report they commissioned of an ‘independent’ modelling of the benefits of an economically right-wing united Ireland, TheJournal.ie reports on the responses of the RTÉ Claire Byrne Live / Amarách Research Panel to the question, “Would you favour a united Ireland?”.

From TheJournal.ie report

The question was posed “Would you favour a united Ireland?”

The question was asked in the run-up to this weekend’s Easter Rising celebrations.

In total, 54% said Yes, 24% said No and 22% said that they don’t know. The splits were consistent across genders, but differed around the regions.

In Munster, 60% of people said Yes, but just 47% in Dublin said the same. No votes were also highest in Dublin, at 32%. [added emphasis]

Details of the breakdown of the demographics of the 1000 panel members, including recruitment guidelines, is available here.

Obviously the poll only covers one of the two referendum areas required under the 1998 Agreement, but it calls into question whether even a single, all-island, referendum would produce a ‘Yes’ vote.

, , , , , , , , , ,

  • Jollyraj

    “Funny enough we’ve been trying for almost a thousand years to decide our own destiny but the British government seems intent on ignoring that reality”

    To be fair, it is the hard left of Irish Republicanism that intently ignores the massive opposition to a UI within what they call the island of Ireland and from what they consider to be the ‘Irish’ people.

  • Anglo-Irish

    No confusion on my side, quite a bit of delusion on yours though.

    They didn’t have a problem with accepting that you are a British citizen, which you are.

    Next time you have your passport to hand take a good long look at it.

    Does it look like a document that applies specifically to someone who is British and only British?

    It doesn’t does it? It includes another category AND Northern Ireland.

    Why is it considered necessary for that inclusion?

    An Irish passport has one word on the front ‘Ireland’ and you are entitled to it whatever part of the island you were born on.

    The British passport could just say ‘Britain’ if everyone who was entitled to it by birthright was in fact British couldn’t it?

    But it can’t do that, because some people are entitled to it who aren’t actually British and therefore that fact is acknowledged on the front of the passport.

    Understand?

    In England if you have an Irish accent they thought that you were a Paddy, Britishness didn’t come into it.

    As for me seeing you as Irish I simply point out that Donald Trump sees himself as an American despite having a Scottish mother and German grandparents on his fathers side.

    Therefore it seems strange that after hundreds of years of living in Ireland PUL people see themselves as belonging to a country other than the land of their birth and their ancestors birth.

    Any comment yet on your Republican racial purity requirement claim?

  • Anglo-Irish

    I don’t ‘ believe passionately’ that you are Irish, I merely point out that you aren’t British.

    As people all over the world that emigrate to countries such as America, Canada , Australia etc regard themselves as belonging to that country after the second generation or so it just seems weird that PUL people take the view that they do.

    My objection to partition is that there will always be a problem until such time as the border is removed.

    Why should anyone accept such a ridiculous bodged up sectarian driven divisive anomaly existing in their country?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Ah, but then he was “a planter………..”

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’ll ask the boys with the geology degrees next time we get together exactly how this is achieved in practice. But at a guess, I imagine they simply instruct the water on how far it may go before it is pumped underground!

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    Thank you Jolly for tempting “Anglo-Irish” into his riff on what he thinks it is to be British. I haven’t laughed so much in a long time.

    Btw referring back to our previous on Blood & Race; keeping to the spirit in these parts you may if you wish now refer to me as Welsh-Irish-Norwegian-Scottish, ‘Wins’ would do for the sake of brevity.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Hadn’t thought of that, sounds good, perhaps they could get a priest to bless it?

    That’s always worked out splendidly in the past.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I’ll make the suggestion.

    “Is there nothing to be said for another Mass, Ted?”

  • Anglo-Irish

    When you’ve finished laughing perhaps you would wish to enlighten us on why it is necessary to specifically exclude Northern Ireland from the description Great Britain on the front of a British passport?

    After all England, Scotland and Wales don’t get a mention do they?

    Talking of laughing I’ve mentioned this debate on previous occasions to several English friends of mine.

    You should have seen them laugh, ” Delusional bunch of thick Paddy’s ” was the common verdict.

  • Jollyraj

    “It includes another category AND Northern Ireland.
    Why is it considered necessary for that inclusion?”

    The passport says, right on the front there, “United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland”.

    See, as I’ve told you before ducky, Great Britain is the larger island. ‘Great Britain’ and ‘Britain’ is not the same thing.

    It doesn’t say “United Kingdom of Britain and Northern Ireland”. If it did, you might even have a point. But it doesn’t. And you don’t.

    You could always put a bit of wine-coloured tape over the word ‘Great’ on yours if you like. Assuming you haven’t already.

  • Jollyraj

    “As people all over the world that emigrate to countries such as America, Canada , Australia etc regard themselves as belonging to that country after the second generation or so it just seems weird that PUL people take the view that they do.”

    If I ever do emigrate to Ireland proper perhaps I will do the same. Don’t think I will, though. It’s a fine country, Ireland, and I genuinely like the people. Just never felt like home though.

  • Jollyraj

    “It seems strange that after hundreds of years of living in Ireland” (that we don’t see ourselves as Irish.

    Hmm. You do know that Partition has meant that all of us in NI haven’t lived in Ireland for the last 100 years, right?

    That being so, it is indeed strange that a significant, though dwindling these days, number of hard left Irish Nationalists (having been born in NI, and thus Britain) continue to feel that they are Irish.

    Credit where it’s due. Good point, AI.

  • Croiteir

    I am more worried about what I see as a real and present threat. The gas storage under Larne lough. Looks like you and me both could be staring into the abyss as has happened in Bayou Corne. But there again some may say that if it happened to Larne it could be classified as Environmental Improvement

  • Croiteir

    Good enough for Paris Seaan

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Oh I worry about that too, Croiteir. But I imagine that all the salt they will wash out to make the caves will be useful on our roads in wintertime. At least those living out at the head of Glenarm might just get to and fro.

    By the way have you encountered this?

    http://www.stcolumbscathedral.org/events.html

    It’s the” Icons at Easter” I’m referring to of course! I have two Icons up on display, but it’s a 75 mile drive.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And Frank Bigger who reminded Alice Milligan (the speaker) at Shane’s Cairn in 1913, that “they were both of planter stock, but had come to make one people with the old Gael of Ireland…”

    No, “place not race”, AI…………

  • Croiteir

    I got mine of the wee nuns up the Falls – obviously better than the Prod ones! But thanks – If I get to Derry I will call in ro the Londonderry cathedral – as an ecumenical gesture. On a serious note however it would be worth going to.

  • Thomas Barber

    Good for you Reader and are your ancestors genelogical records recorded in Irish history pre the plantations.which was my point. its not my fault that some like yourself are ignorant of Irish geneology and the workings of the Tribal system, Nearly all old Irish Septs or Tribes trace their lineage back to Heremon and Heber sons of Milesius theres even proof that Mesolithic hunters were in Ireland 10,000 years ago. Maybe you should look up The Annals of the Kingdom of Ireland or Dr keatings and O Harts Irish Pedigrees maybe even MacFirbis’s Irish Genealogies first published in 1666 and im sure you will find that faithful genealogical records showing the decent of each member from the original founder of the Sept or tribe was meticulously maintained. Dr keating prodly asserted that no other nation could equal what had been accumulated.

  • Thomas Barber

    Obviously you believe Ireland was unihabited before the Glorious revolution Jolly.

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    “Delusional bunch of thick Paddy’s” (sic). In response I might be tempted to say of you and your pals, ‘bunch of bigoted English bast……….’. But I won’t, I’ll merely remark: you really do mix with a nice bunch of people. And you ‘half-Irish’ and all! 🙂 Perhaps you just sit there meekly saying nowt (a bit of Yorkshire Yahoo for you there) in case someone outs your “Paddy” antecedents and you get a punch in the gob?

    NI is mentioned separately on a British passport because the phrase you refer to is the official name of the state, the United Kingdom; which is then described in terms of the bits of the physical world that state covers, Great Britain (the island on which the bulk of the three nations of England, Scotland and Wales sit). Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain as it sits in the north of Ireland.

    Now in general usage the term Great Britain is flexible and it can cover areas outside its geographical boundaries. Anglesey, Isle of Wight and the Scottish islands as examples are obviously not the island of Great Britain but are informally regarded as part of Great Britain.

    Here you may observe that the geography, Great Britain, has morphed into the political Great Britain. Now further morphing occurs, people in the UK could I suppose be called United Kingdomers, but they’re not. They are called British – you may recall this discourse is on the British passport. Or the passport of the United Kingdom as you may refer to it.

    Now it can get even more confusing. I can understand your difficulty in this. Technically there is no ‘British State’, the state is the United Kingdom. But of course the terms are perfectly interchangeable, and perfectly acceptable as such. So therefore both in everyday speech and officially people quite acceptably refer to the UK as ‘Britain’.

    Indeed some reduce the state even more and refer to the UK as ‘England’. But that’s Johnny Foreigner for you, and I expect neither you our your friends will be having any truck with that sort.

    I was going to go on and explain how sporting types from Great Britain, other surrounding islands and NI compete internationally in some sports as ‘Team GB’ but I fear I may have taxed your geography-fixated brain too much already.

    Suffice to say that those born in the UK can quite legitimately state that they are British. They can also claim to be half-and-half, three quarters this or that, or indeed anything they choose. I’m sure most of them as they exercise that freedom to identify themselves will also be able to laugh off those, like you and your pals, who wish to casually insult them for doing so.

    But you know in the end, in this case at least, the geography pedant in you can be satisfied. Anyone hailing from the British Isles can quite comfortably embrace being ‘British’.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Dear me that rattled your cage didn’t it?

    A few points, my friends are the salt of the earth, the only two things I look for in a friend is a kind heart and a modicum of intelligence.

    Other than that I don’t care what race, colour or creed they are, I don’t even care what political party or football team they support.

    The English do tend to have a habit of referring to other nationalities using nick names which isn’t something that I particularly agree with, but life is short.

    I have myself been called a Paddy and it only bothered me on one occasion many years ago when it was obvious that it was intended to be derogatory. I invited the man to step outside and say it again, he declined, but never used the term again.

    As for my confusion or difficulty over the matter I have none you are the one who is confused.

    My question was very simple and straightforward. The description on the front of a British passport is as follows.

    UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND.

    England, Wales and Scotland are included within the description GREAT BRITAIN and therefore are not mentioned, there has to be a separate and additional add on however for Northern Ireland, for the pure and simple reason that it is not part of Great Britain and is a separate entity.

    Anyone born in NI is entitled by birthright to either a British or Irish passport or indeed both if they wish, they are British citizens should they chose to be but they are not British.

    My friends only included the term ‘thick’ because of the ridiculous notion that anyone born in another place would believe themselves to be British rather than a British citizen.

  • Anglo-Irish

    You live in Northern Ireland, but that isn’t Ireland?

    Partition was 94 years ago.

    Ireland is not, and never has been, part of Britain, so Irish nationalists, or anyone else for that matter born anywhere on the island are born on the island of Ireland and not in Britain.

    Your failure to grasp that simple fact sums up your inability to debate the subject with any degree of credibility.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Ireland is not included in the Great, do you understand that?

    NI is mentioned whilst England Scotland and Wales aren’t precisely because NI isn’t in Britain, Great or otherwise.

    My passport has a one word description of the country it belongs to and a harp on the front, no need for tape. : )

  • Jarl Ulfreksfjordr

    Dear me indeed it did. Not so much a “rattle” though, more a shiver of revulsion. Then again I do find those who should have ‘ists’ and ‘phobes’ added to their opinions rather annoying.

    Still each to their own I suppose. I imagine you and your pals are more than comfortable in your skins.

    As for your little ‘British’ difficulty; well you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink. So I’ll leave it with you Neddy.

  • Jollyraj

    “You live in Northern Ireland, but that isn’t Ireland?”

    Well, boysadear! I think he has finally grasped it. Yes, AI, I live in Northern Ireland, but that isn’t Ireland. Not in the political sense. Northern Ireland hasn’t been part of Ireland in, as you helpfully totted up for us there, 94 years.

  • Jollyraj

    Oh not at all. Successive waves of new invaders have been displacing the previous invaders for thousands of years in Ireland.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Ahh the ad hominem attack the last refuge of losers everywhere.

    Keep calling yourself British if it keeps you happy and fulfills some deep need which can’t be fulfilled by accepting what you really are.

    I and my friends will keep smiling as ever.

  • Anglo-Irish

    Try saying that you live in Northern and see where it gets you as a response to a customs official.

    ” Northern where? ” they will ask and then you’ll have to say that awful soul destroying word won’t you?

    Not part of Ireland, you are amusing it has to be said.

    You think NI isn’t a part of Ireland, and in a previous post you say ” Having been born in NI, and thus Britain “.

    Geography wasn’t your best subject was it?

  • Thomas Barber

    The Aborigines didn’t just sprout up in Australia they ended up travelling there from somewhere else but I dont think you could call them invaders most people would accept they would be defined as indigenous seeing as they’ve been there thousands of years.

  • Jollyraj

    Would you consider Gerry Adams indigenous or invader?

  • Thomas Barber

    I consider Gerry Adams as a fellow Irishman just like I consider you as a fellow Irishman. I do accept however that until the majority decide otherwise this part of Ireland remains under British rule and that you consider yourself as British. But what would happen if that British rule were to end, would you consider yourself as Irish if unification were to occur, if the majority decided so ?

  • Jollyraj

    If I’m honest, I really can’t see a UI happening in my lifetime. Perhaps it never will. So it’s difficult to know how I would feel about it. Probably I’d accept it, but I would in all likelihood see myself as still being British, much as I would if I were to go and live in Spain or wherever.

    I do find it interesting that you currently see me as Irish, and then ask me if I would change my view of myself in a UI. Intransigent on your part, no?

  • Jollyraj

    True, but then they wouldn’t have called it Australia back then. They’d have had their own name for it, and their oen language (s). Do you also feel modern day Australians should rename their country as whatever the Aboriginees called it, and perhaps learn their language in school? To be congruent with your take on Ireland, that is.

  • Jollyraj

    “Ireland is not included in the Great, do you understand that?”

    Do you actually read my comments?

  • Anglo-Irish

    Well, I read them but as they made no sense I ignored them.

    After all, you are someone who is under the impression that being born in Ireland means you are born in Britain aren’t you?

    Great Britain includes England Scotland and Wales plus the smaller islands surrounding the large island but not the Channel islands or the Isle of Man.

    Ireland is not, and never has been a part of Britain, hence the wording on the British passport and the titles of British and Irish sovereigns down through the years which always delineated the countries as separate entity’s.

  • Thomas Barber

    Get a grip Jolly it was an honest question.

  • Jollyraj

    Yes, I read it as an honest question, and answered it as such. I will reiterate: I don’t find a UI to really be a realistic prospect in my lifetime. If it does come along, and I’m living in a UI, I will always see myself as transplanted British, not Irish. Would I accept it? I think so – you can’t ignore the reality you live in.

    I do wish, though, that Republicans would wake up to the reality we actually do live in. NI is currently in the UK, not Ireland, in terms of political identity and (as I respect your right to be Irish) please stop trying to deny our right to be British.

  • Jollyraj

    I’ve tried repeatedly to explain to you that the terms ‘Great Britain’ and ‘Britain’ refer to two different things. I note that other posters have tried, apparently without success, to explain the same.

    You can bark at the moon at the moon all you like, but it just won’t change that reality.

  • Jollyraj

    If you feel that NI is a part of Ireland, why don’t you call it ‘the North of Ireland’? I assume the reason is that you do know the two are separate, albeit sitting on the same hunk of earth.

    Sadly for you, just as a person may be born on the island of Borneo and not be Malaysian, it is possible for one physical island to house more than one national unit.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Oh dear, tut, tut, tut, Croiteir, now it’s “Prod” and “Catholic” icons, and even in jest that’s a bit of a worry! The inception of Icon writing in Ireland was started by Sr Aloysius McVeigh:

    http://www.derryjournal.com/news/sad-passing-of-sister-aloysius-1-2132905

    its really worth checking these things out before scoring points about “better” if not from Heretics! While the venue is St Columbs Cathedral, St Lukes sStudio is continuing her work, and most of the peopel I’d work along with or who would teach technique are Roman catholics, except they tend not to either ask about “which confession?” or the like, although in conversation some of the women mention which Convent they are based at. The Icons are worked on in an atmosphere of prayer.

    Most of those who stayed on on Wednesday night for Evensong at the Cathedral after Collette Clarke’s talk on Irish saints I now know after a number of years to be Catholic. I imagine “the wee nuns up the Falls” developed their work at the Icon group that meets at St Mary’s, which is an offshoot of Sr Aloysus’ work.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Good question

    I suppose the main draws would be the following;

    The UK is evermore London centric indeed if not just ‘City of London’ centric and is quite content to let the rest of the UK just chug along with minimal fuss. The Northern Ireland area (being an hour away from Dublin) is too close to ignore in economic terms and less likely to be left behind.

    No finance minister in his right mind would tolerate the amount of money wasted in NI regarding things like segregated education, a mighty fiscal scythe would need to be taken to that one.

    Infrastructure projects would be more likely to get the green light e.g. the Narrow water bridge

    From the perspective of the Protestant community it would have the potential to stem the ‘Brain Drain’, the idea that so many young Protestants opt for university education in Britain and never come back.

    If the border were to go and we all wake up the next morning to find that the wood kerns haven’t slaughtered Protestant villages wholesale then the more paranoid members of the unionist community might be able to relax a bit and get on with life as opposed to trivial things like flags which we expend so much energy on.

    To me, on paper it seems like a rational enough idea BUT then SF come along and ruin it: “OPPRESSION! WEE FLAGS ON SUPERMARKET POULTRY! IRISH BIG MAC TRANSLATIONS!!” etc etc

    Anyhoo, I think it has a lot of god potential but it would need to if one is to ask a group of people who are happy with their lot to just give it all up.

  • Anglo-Irish

    You’re starting to lose the plot a bit here. For a start off it wouldn’t be factual to refer to it as the north of Ireland would it?

    As Donegal is further north than any part of NI the expression ‘the north of Ireland ‘ would include Donegal wouldn’t it?

    I and just about every other person I know refer to it as NI if indeed that’s what we are talking about.

    There is nothing sad about this debate from my point of view in fact I find it highly amusing.

    As to Borneo I have been there on holiday Kota Kinabalu ‘ The land below the wind ‘ it’s beautiful and the people are friendly.

    The thing is that we were in the state known as Sabah which together with Sarawak is part of Malaysia. There are if I remember correctly two other states involved. So there are three countries represented on the island similar to Britain in fact.

    The thing being that just like in Britain each of the states has managed to come up with an entirely individual name to differentiate itself from the others.

    None have settled for sticking an inaccurate geographic direction as a prefix to the country they’re actually in.

  • Anglo-Irish

    And you won’t change the reality that using both terms ‘Great Britain’ AND ‘Northern Ireland’ on the front of a British passport shows that those descriptions are mutually exclusive.

    If your argument was correct the passport would simply say Great Britain, and NI would be covered in the same way that England Scotland and Wales are wouldn’t it?

    As you are someone who actually said that someone born in Ireland was born in Britain you must accept the fact that your viewpoint carries little weight, at least as far as this subject is concerned.

  • John Collins

    Did I tell you before that Adams was a Hannaway on his mother’s side. No way are either of those names old Irish. Pearse’s and Clarke’s fathers were both Protestant, so Irish Republicanism is neither Irish or RC.

  • Thomas Barber

    Does it matter what it was called then it is still accepted that the Aboriginies are indigenous to whats now called Australia. Who’s trying to change the name of Ireland and who’s forcing anyone to learn Irish in schools ? If truth be told was it not the English language and its culture that was and still is enforced upon the Irish people and was Derry always called Londonderry.

  • Thomas Barber

    Im not denying your right to choose your identity Jolly im just wondering if in the event of a united/unified Ireland would you revert back to the nationality of your forefathers who fought at the battle of the Boyne.

  • Jollyraj

    I will always be, and consider myself, a British citizen, Thomas.

    If Sinn Fein, and their goons in the IRA, have acheived one thing in the last 50 years or so it has been to create a legacy of lasting distance from an Irish identity in the hearts and minds of unionists generally. More than anything else, the various activities of SF and the IRA have entrenched attitudes of difference and hostility between the two communities down the generations. Who knows – if SF had never existed at all the border might even have been removed a decade or so ago.

  • Jollyraj

    By your logic, “If truth be told was it not the English language and its culture that was and still is enforced upon” … the aboriginal people of what is now Australia, to use your argument. Same goes for the First Nation peoples of Canada. Or the Native Americans of the US. The Irish in NI have no more or less right to turn the clock back than those peoples do. Would you agree?

  • MainlandUlsterman

    I can trace my ancestry right back to the East African Rift Valley. The blow-ins running Kenya now, it makes my blood boil …

  • MainlandUlsterman

    reminds of the fictional hit Austrian gameshow from The Comic Strip’s “Eddie Monsoon”, called “How Pure Was Your Grandpapa?”

  • MainlandUlsterman

    if he says he feels a British Ulsterman who doesn’t embrace Irish identity (like myself), do you still consider him an “Irishman”? Doesn’t the GFA state we should accept each other’s choice of national identity, whether British or Irish or both? I’ve read it – it does.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    it’s the big weakness of traditional Irish nationalism – it depends on telling people what national identity they ought to have. It’s innately absurd and illiberal.

  • MainlandUlsterman

    even SF accepted the Britishness of people in NI who self-define as such, it’s in the Good Friday Agreement. Are you aware you’re taking a more extreme Irish republican position than the Provisional IRA?

  • MainlandUlsterman

    Jollyraj,
    It’s an amusing thread but I think AI ceded the argument with: “Well, I read them but as they made no sense I ignored them.” Only one of you is actually debating and it’s not him.

  • Jollyraj

    Aye. I think they find it complicates things overly if you let people make their own minds up about how things ought to be.

  • Tony1221

    These surveys are useless until people see what structure of a united Ireland would appear on the ballot paper. E.g. All Ulster (9 counties) as a provincial, regional government within the Republic, governed from Belfast, would garner most support north and south. Most people however, when asked the question only think of one government in Dublin which is not the best option frankly. Whatever option is voted on, the birth-right of unionists to remain British (from the NI 6 counties) would have to be recognised and constitutional guarantees put in place for the unionist community. I don’t see a vote on the issue though for another 20/30 years.