Will Chief Constable Hamilton pass the Dervock test or will he endorse the hate?

40 views

If “the right to freedom from sectarian harassment” promised in the Good Friday Agreement is to mean anything, then the newly appointed PSNI Chief Constable, George Hamilton, will shortly be directing his officers to remove the loyalist flag erected inside the grounds of Our Lady and St John the Evangelist Church in Dervock.

The Irish News reported earlier in the week that loyalists had erected a flag from the same lamp post last weekend when also painting the church gate and kerbstones red, white and blue. At that time, the UDA-aligned UPRG spokesman, William McCurry, said young people had painted the gates “out of frustration and anger” after being criticised for erecting the flag. Subsequently, nationalists removed the flag whilst senior loyalists appear to have directed their minions to repaint the church gate. The kerbs remained loyal.

Following on from the Ardoyne/ Crumlin Road Parades Commission determination, local loyalists returned the flag to the post inside Church grounds, and a photograph in today’s Irish News appears to show PSNI officers in discussion with loyalists outside the church in the immediate aftermath of the incident occurring.

The PSNI did not intervene.

No arrests were made.

A blind eye was turned to the hate.

Today, loyalist leaders have told The Irish News that the flag will not be coming down now.

The beleagured minority catholic parishioners of Dervock must realise their lowly status in the Loyal village.

It says a lot about the leadership of political unionism that this flag has been allowed to be returned without a swift and unambiguous intervention by senior unionist leaders, but then the unwillingness to tackle a prejudicial, supremacist mentality continues to define a political leadership willing to bring down a government because loyalists can not march past catholic homes at a sectarian interface twice in one day.

It’s decision time for the new Chief Constable.

Having so spectacularly failed to stand against the hate in Ballyclare 3 years ago, will the PSNI turn away again?

 

  • Mc Slaggart

    What is need is for people to ring the police and complain. I have been told by one police man that it is illegal to take down the flags yourself once they are up. This means of course they can never legally be taken down as the people who own the flags never have their name on them.
    Is it not time that anyone who puts up flags must identify clearly to the police and the general public that it is their flags that have been put up.

    “It is alright for Sean Begley to talk about the flags on the A5. But they are not illegal – See more at: http://ulsterherald.com/2014/07/01/call-for-leadership-after-flags-erected-ahead-of-twelfth/#sthash.xUJBFp7a.dpuf

  • Comrade Stalin

    McSlaggart,

    If the police warned me that I’d be arrested for taking a flag down in these circumstances, that would make me more motivated to go ahead and do it.

  • Comrade Stalin

    This crap really, really pisses me off and completely undermines my faith in devolution. The unionist veto over legislation or progress on flags is, in effect, providing a cover for loyalists to continue committing openly provocative and intimidating acts against minorities.

    Devolution cannot stand in these circumstances; the British government will have to investigate this matter itself and legislate appropriately for the police and/or courts or other authorities to have the power to deal with this nonsense.

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com John Mooney

    Painted kerbstones…flags on bonfires…territorial marking with illegal flags….any colour sis an absolute disgrace.
    If it helps I can post a pic of a bonfire beside Free Derry Corner (August 2010)….the bonfire has several British flags, several Orange flags and at least one Israeli flag.
    A disgrace.
    But as far as I know, Dervock is NOT a parish church. It is a church attached to parish in Ballymoney…the parish has one priest serving both areas.
    This is not unusual. There are several Churches which have at least one smaller outlying church in potentially hostile areas.
    While I can certainly think of some that have been attacked, it is testimony to the essential decency of most people…Catholic and Protestant and Neither….that churches are generally unmolested.

    Indeed there are many Catholic and Protestant villages that take a certain pride that the “other” church is respected.
    What happened in Dervock is of course a disgrace but I have my doubts that making it “high profile” is actually a help.
    A quiet word with PSNI, loyal orders, politicians and other ministers might be more effective.
    Certainly the angry loyalist youths are not reflective of the broader Dervock community and I note the use of the word “nationalist” to describe the person who removed the flag ….not “parishioner” or “Catholic resident” .
    While I understand that any Catholic resident-parishioner-nationalist in and around Dervock, keeping a low profile…..I dont think they would fully appreciate a car load of “nationalists” coming in from nationalist areas to liberate them.
    Of course I might be far too cynical. Maybe the “nationalist” who was so moved by the plight of the minority in Dervock, will be joining them for Mass on Sunday.
    Or maybe not.

    Touring the Six Counties looking for examples of bad behaviour in relation to flags and emblems (both sides) is an easy option.
    But while some opine that nothing has changed…and others opine its all changed …in forty years …the truth is that we have come a long way and have a long way to go.
    So the Chief Constable micro-managing a place like Dervock seems unlikely.
    its a long way from the time when I saw an old RUC land rover stop at a lamp post in a Catholic area of Dungannon and an officer took down my national flag from a lamp post and made a gesture to his colleagues that he was wiping his bottom with it.
    Now that offended me more.

    But public space is difficult.
    Look at that International Wall in Divis Street in West Belfst (and broader murals).
    Who owns that International Wall?
    Who decides what gets painted?
    Angry Dervock loyalist youth spontaneously painting church gates….but wasnt there a similarly angry republican spontaneous response that prevailed on West Belfasts resident muralist to depict Gerry Adams on his arrest.
    Can I go down there and paint my own mural?
    Angry and spontaneous….hardly.

  • tacapall

    Im glad to see Comrade that you’ve finally come to realise that if the will was there the British government could change loyalist mindsets tomorrow but the truth is they dont want to because loyalism represents British interests in Ireland. It must be satisfying for the British establishment in terms of global politics that there’s people from another country other than England that are unashamed and not embarrassed to give two fingers to all the victims of British injustice. There is only one solution for Ireland to release itself from this cycle of bigotry, refuse to take part in British elections, refuse to give the British government any moral right to decide the type of democracy that people in this part of Ireland live under.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The problem isn’t solely restricted to one side, John, but it is unionists who are blocking the adoption of protocols and powers to deal with these issues.

  • mr x

    Looked at Wikipedia and the Catholic population of Dervock is 1.2%.

  • Comrade Stalin

    tacapall,

    I don’t think the British government could change loyalist mindsets any more than it can change EDL or Britain First mindsets. But it could at least establish and enforce a legal framework.

  • tacapall

    Comrade do you believe for a second loyalists could get away with what they do in England or outside Muslim places of worship ?

  • mr x

    @tacapall

    When the next Labour Government severely cut the Northern Ireland block grant the problem will be solved

  • Jagdip

    From experience, it was the video recording of the Conway band outside St Patrick’s playing the so-called “famine song” that galvanised civic society against this childishly vile sectarianism.

    What is needed at Dervock is photographic and video evidence of what these idiots do and have done, and how the PSNI react. The sunlight of transparency is just the Dettol this behaviour demands.

  • Count Eric Bisto von Granules

    A supersoaker filled with a flamable liquid is a quick way to solve any flag problems

  • Comrade Stalin

    tacapall, no I don’t, but that’s not what you said. you talked of “changing mindsets”. The British government do not possess mind control powers.

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com John Mooney

    Comrade,
    I agree absolutely.
    There is a …dare I say “letsgetalongerist” mindset (and to your credit you dont have it) that by default blames each side 50-50.
    “Sure they are as bad as each other”.
    And they arent.
    Which is why I basically identify with the “side” that appears rooted in a philosophy after 1789.
    True compromise is not about splitting the difference between republicans and loyalists but rather going with what is the “right thing”.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Comrade Stalin

    “If the police warned me that I’d be arrested for taking a flag down in these circumstances, that would make me more motivated to go ahead and do it.”

    To be honest I am not going to take flags down off the A5. That would require a team of people and if you are going to do it its often best to do it on your own.

    I also must admit that in certain places I quite like to see the national flags. My favorite one a farmer fly’s (Union jack) beside the main Gaa ground in Tyrone (Healy park). It used to fly from the top of a big tree and once the tree came down the farmer put up a big pole in its place to fly the flag.

    That having been said on a rare occasion I have removed flags. In doing so I have tried to be quick and extremely careful. It has also been in areas in which I am well known.

  • tacapall

    Comrade why were Islam4UK banned ?

  • Son of Strongbow

    Whilst I suppose we should welcome that some nationalists who previously held, ahem, an ambiguous attitude to law and order have become Johnny-come-latleys to zero tolerance style policing; yet the impression is now given that they merely seek to judge the cops on highly partisan terms.

    The police as political/sectarian footballs is no doubt attractive to many: the cops blocking a loyalist march on Twaddell Avenue is interpreted as SFPSNI, whilst officers not producing ladders from their back pockets and climbing up to take down a loyalist flag is ‘old style RUC tactics’, or “endorsing the hate” if you are of a melodramatic bent.

    So it seems to those in the Greek Chorus of either tribe sitting comfortably, and safely, in their armchairs a win-win situation. The police strike a blow for ‘their’ team and they can sit back to watch the predictable mayhem from the other side that they hoped for, poised of course over the keyboard to gleefully report the actions.

    The difficulty for such folks is that that is not the way policing is meant to happen. The police are in the business of trying to reduce tensions, not to stoke them on the partisan urgings of others.

    The police are required to consider the potential outcomes of their actions, unlike those who chant ‘do it, do it’ from the sidelines. This is particularly so when police action may result in them having to use force.

    The police know that police organisations across the world who have been held to account on human rights failings have had the focus squarely on police planning prior to the critical incident rather than actions at the time of the incident itself.

    What can appear as inaction, or ‘political/sectarian policing’ if you prefer, is much like a duck on the water, not much happening above the surface yet paddling furiously below the waterline.

    Hoping things will resolve themselves, seemingly endless negotiating with politicos and/or the legion of ‘community workers’ that infest this place is no doubt thankless work, but someone has got to do it.

    Not that any of this will placate those with a malevolent eye on the police, and in particular the new Chief Constable. I wonder how long it will be before his RUC antecedents are dredged up as a tool with which to attack him?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Mr x

    “Looked at Wikipedia and the Catholic population of Dervock is 1.2%.”

    Thankyou for the numbers.

    However, some youths still made the effort to punish this small percentage.

    Hurt is hurt and insult is insult, regardless if there is a sufficient critical mass to be considered worthy of consideration or not.

    Depriving the fruit of liberty to a certain religion is a strange way of endorsing religious and civil liberties.

  • streetlegal

    It has been suggested that the reason for that the united unionists have chosen to make their ‘big push’ now is that they know they have the new Chief Constable ‘on-side’ and that he will be ready to concede the ground when push comes to shove.

  • Comrade Stalin

    John, I suppose I have a bit of getalongerism going on in that I don’t think it’s a good idea to attempt to ban the Orange Order outright, which is what is being talked about in Scotland. You kind of do have to try to meet halfway, or somewhere reasonable. To me, reasonable is where people who behave themselves can have their rights to parade respected and even enshrined in law.

    tacapall, I don’t know why Islam4UK were banned. But bans are tricky in Northern Ireland, especially as the largest nationalist party is one which insists on commemorating people who killed civilians and tried to overthrow the state through violence.

    SonofStrongbow, nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent, excepting of course the odd hiccup on the bonnet of a landrover. While I’m not excusing nationalists for being selective on law and order, they’re hardly alone on that front; police officers have, as you will know, been killed or seriously injured while policing parades which have been restricted.

  • Comrade Stalin

    streetlegal,

    Suggested by whom ? Your arse ?

    The united unionists appear confused and disorganized. This morning, Robinson and Nesbitt went on the record to say that Parades Commission rulings have to be obeyed. Nesbitt is going around saying that he is expressly not calling people onto the streets. The DUP say they are not boycotting the North-South bodies. This in turn implies that they are not planning to withdraw from the Executive.

    What exactly they are going to do remains unclear.

  • streetlegal

    Robinson is yesterday’s man and his words carry no weight. It is ‘the mighty Dodds’ who is running this show and he is running rings around Mike Nesbitt. Dodds knows that he must now deliver a victory to satisfy the expectations he has raised within unionism.

  • http://fitzjameshorselooksattheworld.wordpress.com John Mooney

    Oh I wouldnt ban Orange Order….far from it.
    But I certainly wouldnt devote hours of TV to cover their “carnival”.
    I certainly wouldnt encourage them.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Comrade Stalin

    ” nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent”

    That is a very insulting comment.

    It makes one wonder do you know the history of the why the Ulster Special Constabulary/ Royal Ulster Constabulary.

  • redhugh78

    Mr X,

    I looked at the census and Dervock has a Catholic population of 10.4%.

  • NOT NOW JOHN

    What exactly they are going to do remains unclear.
    —————————————————————————
    What exactly they are going to do now is very clear. What exactly they are going to do now is the same as they have always done. What exactly there are going to do now is nothing at all. Nothing whatsoever other than a lot of hot air and foolish talk.

    Remember the flags protest and the formation of the United Unionist Forum? Remember what it was going to do? Remember Billy Hutchinson and his ‘the flag may soon fly again” nonsense? “I am not going to make promises to anybody. What I am saying is that we are going to try to put the flag back. I want to be very careful about this. I don’t want to lead people up the wrong road. But the idea is that it might be back. But, we will have to see”. And still we wait. Similarly with the ‘graduated response’ promoted by the Unionist leadership this week. Looking even more foolish than he did the launch of the Unionist Forum last year, Mr. Nesbitt said that the ‘graduated response’ would “become more obvious as the days and weeks roll out”. More obvious to him I guess as no one seems to have any idea what it’s all about.

    The Unionist leadership has a remarkably consistent history of promising to lead loyalists to a promised land but it never delivers anything. (Ian Paisley was a master of it … at least until David Irvine came along.) And it won’t deliver anything this time. Postponing a North South meeting and walking out of talks which they know would be required compromise were they to stay in, is a glorious non-response. Stunt politics is what Ken Maginnis used to call it when the DUP and UUP were less unified.

    What the loyalist people have to understand is that the Unionist leadership can no longer deliver anything for the simple reason that they are no longer in charge. The days when the Orange Order controlled Ulster Unionist Party ran the country is long in the past. That’s why the opposition to the Anglo Irish agreement failed. That’s why their opposition to Sinn Fein in government failed. That’s why their attempts to save the UDR and RUC failed. That’s why all their heavy handed opposition to the Drumcree situation failed and failed utterly. Of course the Orange Order can still wag the Unionist Policy dog as it always did in the past but these days that is as far as it goes. They can no longer implement it now despite all their fighting talk.

  • Comrade Stalin

    McSlaggart,

    Dry your eyes.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Not Now John,

    You’re right in saying that they always promise everything and deliver nothing. But that doesn’t mean that they will sit on their hands. OTOH, I don’t think they have a plan – if they did we’d have heard about it by now.

  • MYtwocents

    cs, how about this for a plan, Do on to others, as they do onto you.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    MYtwocents

    “cs, how about this for a plan, Do on to others, as they do onto you.”

    Hmmmm, I hope not.

    The churches that my family members attend are in mainly nationalist areas and I would be ill at ease with the thought of the adjacent kerbstones being painted GW&O and a tricolour or two plonked nearby/in the grounds.

    On the other hand, I suppose maybe your plan might work if we were to use the Rossnowlagh parade as a blueprint for Orange parades province wide?
    Minimum fleggery, noble conduct, respect, sobriety.

    THAT might be a help.

  • gendjinn

    Comrade Stalin,

    I don’t know why Islam4UK were banned. But bans are tricky in Northern Ireland, especially as the largest nationalist party is one which insists on commemorating people who killed civilians and tried to overthrow the state through violence.

    Not to mention Sinn Fein.

    …nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent….

    You need to fuck right off with that crap. The RUC murdered & terrorised the Nationalist community since the foundation of the state. And you have the absolute gall to criticise them for failing to support the fuckers to the requisite level you deem?

    Cop yerself on lad.

  • Sp12

    “McSlaggart,
    Dry your eyes.”

    Do you normally resort to insults when pulled when making stupid comments?
    Nationalists didn’t ‘evolve’ to support the police, the police evolved into a force that some nationalists can place a degree of trust in.
    If nothing else your attitude shows why the Alliance mindset has gained zero traction outside of the small U Catholic wards.

  • Zig70

    My reading was that the status quo will be maintained. A human rights approach they call it, where nothing is done at the time, the crime goes unhindered and the police pick the soft targets to make the figures readable in hindsight. It’s shit. Kids get criminal records, paramilitaries get a free reign and society is stuck with paramilitary infestation. Style over substance from the psni, but it’s hard to combat with complicit politicians.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    gendjinn

    ” nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent, excepting of course the odd hiccup on the bonnet of a landrover”

    OK, apart from the chicken-egg question regarding who evolved, is Stalin’s comment really so wrong?

    I was under the impression that, for the greater part (as in substantial) the nationalist community does support the PSNI.
    Especially when compared to the RUC & B Specials.

    Is this wrong?

    Is it only a minority of nationalists that support the PSNI (in so much as one can ‘support’ a police force, I’ve certainly never met anyone in Glasgow who ‘cheers on’ the Strathclyde Police)?

  • Sp12

    “OK, apart from the chicken-egg question regarding who evolved, is Stalin’s comment really so wrong?”

    Sure, leaving aside the central issue of who had to do the changing it’s definitely one of the more astute observations I’ve ever read.

    “I was under the impression that, for the greater part (as in substantial) the nationalist community does support the PSNI.”

    I dunno, when I see some fellah from Derry with 10 twitter followers get a criminal record for proposing that someone should be shot and see a DUP deputy Lord Mayor get an ‘informed warning’ for the same offence, or some guy after a few too many beers get busted for shouting TAL in the middle of a year of violent flag protests I start to wonder myself.

    I tell you what, come back and gauge the support of the police, when we’ve all seen their reaction to the annual summer dicky-fit by unionists.
    More telling, let’s see how popular they are when the gnomes can’t even make it the garden centre because the spides are blocking the roads.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Right.

    so ‘no’ then? Or a pessimistic ‘maybe’?

  • MYtwocents

    its hard to see how the psni could protect every building from this type of vandalism, they have been, and are unable to stop the weekly attacks on orange halls, what difference church’s.

  • gendjinn

    Am Ghobsmacht,

    evolved?

    The UDR/B Specials/RUC were tools of repression that harassed and murdered the Nationalist community. Colluded with Unionist terrorists to murder Nationalists. It is reasonable, not unevolved, to withhold support from such organizations.

    The success of the PSNI is fantastic and necessary for a peaceful north.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    gendjinn

    “The UDR/B Specials/RUC were tools of repression that harassed and murdered the Nationalist community. Colluded with Unionist terrorists to murder Nationalists”

    I know that.

    I’m not sticking up for them.

    I’m insulted that you think that I didn’t know this or need reminding.

    ” It is reasonable, not unevolved, to withhold support from such organizations.”

    This insinuates that there is no difference between the RUC and the PSNI.

    Is that your view on the matter?

    “The success of the PSNI is fantastic and necessary for a peaceful north.”

    Right.

    So, my original question still remains unanswered: “I was under the impression that, for the greater part (as in substantial) the nationalist community does support the PSNI.
    Especially when compared to the RUC & B Specials.

    Is this wrong?

    Is it only a minority of nationalists that support the PSNI (in so much as one can ‘support’ a police force, I’ve certainly never met anyone in Glasgow who ‘cheers on’ the Strathclyde Police)?

    Yes? No? Maybe?

  • carl marks

    When the (overwhelming) majority of people on both political entities on the island voted to the GFA we agreed to change, everybody and everything was going to have to change, The way we were governed, The Police, Nationalists, Unionists, flags and emblems and last but not least our attitude to each other flags and emblem.
    Of course some people didn’t vote for the GFA but since we live in a democracy they are bound by it as much as anybody, it now the law of the land.
    The police are moving on (evolving) that process isn’t finished yet!
    Nationalists are moving on (evolving) that is another unfinished Job; we are going to have to take a long look at our flags and emblems, we perhaps think of doing a bit of evolving there.
    Irish language for everyone (Bobby Sands Bursary)
    Paramilitary murals making a comeback in West Belfast!
    But Unionism is still stuck in the 1920’s reactions are still knee jerk and as proved by some of the posts on this thread seems unaware that it even has any evolving to do!

  • Reader

    MYtwocents: its hard to see how the psni could protect every building from this type of vandalism, they have been, and are unable to stop the weekly attacks on orange halls, what difference church’s.
    I think it would be reasonable for the PSNI, as part of a multi-agency team, to remove *some* flags in exceptional cases, and this seems an obvious candidate.
    I’m not sure they could reasonably be expected to clean up graffiti or mount 24 hour guards on vulnerable buildings, which is where this could be going.

  • the rich get richer

    We have to come up with a way of showing how ridiculous and downright funny the whole pantomime is.

    If we were watching this carry-on going on in some other tiny corner of the world we would immediately see how ridiculous it is.

    In most parts of the world people are working too hard and too long hours to have the amount of time to devote to this.

    Make them work harder and longer to diminish their ardour.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    CM

    “Irish language for everyone (Bobby Sands Bursary)”

    Good point, with regards to the ole perception of Irish being joined at the hip to republicanism and therefore making it harder for some of us to sell to ordinary unionists, well, this doesn’t really help.

    A Lenny Murphy scholarship for lambeg drumming wouldn’t help that fraternity bring nationalists back in from the percussionist cold.

  • Comrade Stalin

    cs, how about this for a plan, Do on to others, as they do onto you.

    So the plan is to try to reroute all the nationalists parades that pass through or near to majority unionist neighbourhoods. That sounds like a winner.

    Sp12, glendjinn,

    Bit hard to take, that. SF and the IRA did not support the PSNI for the first six years of its existence. Prior to then they had been insisting on the complete disbandment of the RUC. They relaxed their requirements, which is why I said “evolved”.

    Nationalists have evolved from a completely pointless and unattainable objective of trying to overthrow the union either through violence or by backdooring the British and Irish governments.

  • MYtwocents

    cs, do onto others. attack Irish culture at every opportunity, let the greater Irish nat community know, what its like to feel the conflict is not over, but has just move on to a different stage, let them feel, how the orange side feels, it won’t bring as peace, and an eye for an eye, Ect, but what else to do, GARC and their like won’t stop, and if nats on slugger are anything to go by, GARCs anti orange/British pogrom has many supporters.

  • tacapall

    “cs, do onto others. attack Irish culture at every opportunity”

    MTC when has Unionism/Loyalism ever not attacked and not tried to erase Irish culture in Ireland and strange as it may seem but 100% of those Orangemen who are deluded enough to believe their forefathers fought at the Boyne are in fact also Irish.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Am Ghobsmacht

    what CS wrote:

    ” nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent”

    The fault with policing has never been anything other than an issue with the police force itself. If one compares the relationship of Donegal nationalists and Tyrone nationalists then its easy to see that the basic elements of policing was wrong from the foundation of the state of Northern Ireland.

    On a personal level most “nationalists” {or Irish people} would have got on with individual police men. Some was even in the police force. The problems started when they put on the uniform.

  • Sp12

    “Bit hard to take, that. SF and the IRA did not support the PSNI for the first six years of its existence. Prior to then they had been insisting on the complete disbandment of the RUC. They relaxed their requirements, which is why I said “evolved”.

    Nationalists have evolved from a completely pointless and unattainable objective of trying to overthrow the union either through violence or by backdooring the British and Irish governments.”

    Ohhh I see, in Alliance world Nationalists and the IRA are interchangeable terms.
    And the PUP world view too.
    Cool, glad we’ve cleared that up.

  • MYtwocents

    sp12, its only in the Irish nationalist world, that they are not interchangeable.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    MTtwocents

    “cs, do onto others. attack Irish culture at every opportunity”

    Every opportunity?

    If nationalists are attacking Orange culture at every opportunity then could you please list these events?

    And why has no one told the nationalist residents of Magherafelt, Rasharkin and other nationalist towns to do the same?

    If nationalists DID attack orange culture at every opportunity then the list would be huge.

    But they don’t, do they?

    If we follow your advice then it’ll only be a matter of time before the OO are banned from Belfast city centre.

  • carl marks

    MYtwocents (profile)

    6 July 2014 at 6:21 pm

    sp12, its only in the Irish nationalist world, that they are not interchangeable.

    Really, Mtc that is maybe the stupidest thing I have ever heard on slugger, if you really believe or more importantly if a lot of unionists really believe that then it’s even sadder and more confused than I thought it was.
    Before the bay of Pigs Kennedy was told by the CIA that the Cuban people would rise up against Castro when the invasion took place, after the whole thing went belly up he said that the biggest mistake he made “was believing his own propaganda” and as any historian will tell you that is a sure way to lose.
    But as a nationalist may I thank you and those who think like you for your help in project UI.
    Probably would not have been able to do it without you, keep the faith.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Brain dead loyalists at it again. Roll on the revolution!

    genjinn

    If the UDR, RUC were colluding with loyalist terrorists then who imprisoned approx 8,000 of them? Maybe my father did it on his own.

  • carl marks

    It’s beginning to fall apart (the pan unionist front) already, James if off cue with Gregory and Gregory hasn’t been told what will happen (Nolan this morning) but Arlene seems to be in the loop.
    While some politicians are saying there will be no street protests loyalists ideas are ranging from the good old 100,000 orange men and their supporters up there and they won’t stop us tactic (despite the fact it hasn’t worked since 1974) to shoot a few police officers and that will sort it.
    The last time peter marched the troops up the hill (flegs) he left them there and pissed back off to his very expensive carp and I bet he does it again.
    Wee Jim is breathing down the DUPs neck and making them nervous.
    The important thing here for Peter is putting a Robinson in the family seat and since he knows that he doesn’t have a chance of pulling support from moderate Catholics or indeed from the garden Centre types he is going for the support base that can be mobilised with a bit of the oul religious tension.
    You can always depend on the loyalists, wave a flag shout about themmuns attacking our culture and they will come running.
    So we can expect the following.
    Street disorder and young protestant men going to Jail!
    Policing bill skyrockets!
    People hurt, police, protesters and more than likely a catholic or two who is unlucky enough to be in the wrong time!
    Peter will wash his hands off the whole thing, but you can be sure that he will not allow any threat to his salary so no collapsing the Assembly.
    When it quiets down loyalists will complain that the unionist parties used them but will turn up again whenever Peter wants them again and happily repeat the process.

  • carl marks

    Alan N/Ards
    I’m sure your father was a good man and a good policeman, many in the RUC were but many in the RUC and UDR were not, Collusion happened it was wrong it resulted in many deaths and it is hard to explain how loyalists operated with such impunity in both their terrorist and criminal activities unless the police were watching their backs.
    In my youth a joke went around,
    Q/ what is the difference between the UDR and Boots?
    A/you get your photos back from Boots.
    The UDR was the main source of weapons for the loyalists, and the links between special branch and loyalist murder gang is well documented.

  • gendjinn

    Alan N/Ards,

    If the UDR, RUC …

    There’s no if about it. It’s fact & the British prime minister apologised for it.

    That the UDR, RUC & B-Specials harassed & murdered Nationalists is fact.

  • Alan N/Ards

    gendjinn
    The question still stands. Who put the 8,000 loyalists behind bars? You know the answer. It was the decent, hard working and honest members of the security forces who did their job. They were in the majority but of course that doesn’t fit in to the republican narrative.

    Was every Provo a sectarian bigot? Probably not. But some of them were and they murdered and harassed unionists and that is a fact. That doesn’t fit into the republican narrative either.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Alan N/Ards

    The “security forces” actions at the interface with people who they took to be “republican” turned into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    I know people who was in the British army who said the scariest people that they ever met was the RUC people who was assigned to them on patrol. {I did not even know that occured}.

  • Alan N/Ards

    McS
    I’m not defending the lawbreakers in the security forces. They were beyond the pale. The tarring everyone with the same brush is wrong. Credit needs to be given to those who did the job in a fair and unbiased way. Those loyalists were tracked down and sent to prison by decent people. As I said before, this doesn’t fit the republican narrative.

  • Son of Strongbow

    The RUC/UDR bad-to-the-bone is indeed a central element in the nationalist narrative. Indeed it is crucial to sustain the ‘war’ fiction that is at the core of that fantasy (although you have to set to one side the MOPEry that ensues when incidents, such as at Loughgall, sees the ‘enemy forces’ firing back – just like in a real war)

    The much more ‘successful’ terrorist franchise’s results in attaining a high ‘body count’, that is the nationalist terrorist machine, has to be mitigated by having all loyalist terrorism laid at the door of the State.

    Inconvenient truths, such as loyalists arrested, prosecuted and jailed, must be brushed under the carpet lest a jarring note enters the canon of ‘The Risen Croppie Songbook’ (hits including: ‘The Battle of La Mon’, ‘Gunfight at the Mountain Lodge Church’ etc)

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sp12, I said “either through violence or by backdooring the British and Irish governments”. The “either” is important. Constitutional nationalism, until 1998, was focussed on short-circuiting the unionists by getting the British and Irish governments to impose a joint settlement effecting the governance of NI. I did not say that nationalists were interchangeable with the IRA.

    if you’re going to a dick and put words in my mouth, or accuse me of being a spokesperson for others, don’t bother replying to me.

    MYtwocents:

    cs, do onto others. attack Irish culture at every opportunity, let the greater Irish nat community know, what its like to feel the conflict is not over, but has just move on to a different stage, let them feel, how the orange side feels, it won’t bring as peace, and an eye for an eye, Ect, but what else to do

    I am wondering how this will work.

    Unionism already blocks Irish cultural stuff every opportunity it can. Unionist politicians write letters to the media and the BBC complaining about GAA coverage; they refuse to budge on the Irish language or displays of the tricolour; they block planning applications by the GAA to use or take over council land. Unionists make excuses for the burning of the tricolour.

    What else can unionism do to mess around with nationalism ?

  • MYtwocents

    “The UDR was the main source of weapons for the loyalists, ”
    Thats a lie, or, Your an idiot!.

    cs, how it would work, would be the an irish themed event would attract protest,these protests would lead to trouble, these events would then become known as, trouble, then the people who enjoy these events but don’t like trouble, would stop going to these events. Its a bit like what has happened with the loyal order parades, only in reverse.

  • Sp12

    “if you’re going to a dick and put words in my mouth, or accuse me of being a spokesperson for others, don’t bother replying to me.”

    Is that like an order?
    If you’re gonna make idiotic assertions about nationalists ‘evolving’ to accept the police then give the IRA as an example, all after getting obnoxious when pulled on it by multiple people that took issue with your moronic analysis, perhaps you’re the one that needs to look into doing the eye drying thing.

  • fordprefect

    Carl Marks is spot on. It’s F****** Groundhog Day (again) here! Same old same old, as CM points out, it’ll be the working/unemployed class who will wind up with records while the great and the good who wound them up will keep spewing forth their garbage while making sure their own healthy salaries and their nepotism isn’t touched. As CM also pointed out, when it’s expedient for Robbo and the rest of that shower to condemn unionist violence, they’ll do it, and you’ll have PUP and UPRG spokespersons on calling them everything. Here’s a tip for any working/unemployed unionist reading my tuppence worth, when that bunch of clowns call for roads to be blocked etc. DON’T! Tell them to do it, and make sure they bring their family members who are on good salaries with them.

  • fordprefect

    I meant to write working class/unemployed unionists.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Alan N/Ards

    ” Credit needs to be given to those who did the job in a fair and unbiased way. ”

    I had friends in both the RUC and UDR some of them was lovely people others you would not have let drive cattle.

    The problem was not with them but the organisation and what it allowed people to get away with.

  • Alan N/Ards

    fordprefect
    Spot on. The problem is the loyalist working class are probably itching for a scrap and the DUP know that. I don’t believe they can see that they’re going be used. Robinson and his masters in the Belfast OO will then do the usual Pontius Pilate act and blame the paramilitaries. If only they would get wise to them.

  • gendjinn

    Alan N/Ards,

    why are you creating straw man exaggerations of my position to argue with?

    People wearing the uniforms of the RUC, the UDR, the B-Specials regularly belittled, harassed, assaulted the Nationalist community.

    People wearing the uniforms of the RUC, the UDR, the B-Specials murdered men, women and children of the Nationalist community.

    People wearing the uniforms of the RUC, the UDR, the B-Specials covered up for them.

    Many of them never faced a court and to this very day the PSNI & the British state delay and frustrate investigations into dozens of these murders.

    To criticize Nationalists for failing to deliver slavish support for such a police force is bizarre.

    Interesting that Unionists don’t come in for criticism for their complete, unwavering and blind support for the police in circumstances where they obviously murdered civilian children, women and men.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sp12, I’m not the one doing the faux outrage thing.

    MYtwocents, I can’t think of an Irish cultural event that loyalists could protest.

    I guess once again you could start protesting kids going to schools or picketing churches, right ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    gendjinn, just sayin’, the total death toll attributable to the RUC is something like 58. Out of the ~3200 people who died in the troubles.

  • Sp12

    “Sp12, I’m not the one doing the faux outrage thing.”

    No, you’re the one citing the IRA’s actions as your first example to back up your moronic suggestion that ‘Nationalists evolved to support the police’.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    MYtc

    Now, with regards to your call for protesting ‘Irish’ events:

    Does the St Pat’s parade in Ballymena (held by theOrange Order of Ireland) count as an ‘Irish’ cultural event?

    And if (IF!) some one within the OO (somehow) decided to resurrect, commorate or even exhibit (like a small exhibition in city hall) the old Irish language banners used by the OO and Ulster unionist party, does that count as an Irish event?

    If Scottish Presbyterian Gaels were invited to a Gaelic music night in NI, would they be in the line up for harassment too?

    I think there’s still some traditional fiddle sessions in Orange halls in Co Down, should they get the treatment too?

    I mean, you did say ‘Irish’ culture after all.

    Or do you mean just the elements of Irish culture that are laden with nationalist trappings?

    Please specify as Irish nationalist culture and Irish culture are not exclusively the same thing.
    Something that people tend to forget.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    commorate – ‘commemorate’

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sp12, it’s not nice to deliberately misrepresent what I said, especially after I took the time to point out the nature of your misrepresentation.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    MYtc

    “am, yes, to all, best to clean out your own house before starting on next doors.”

    So, you advocate culturally purging ‘your own people’ because some of ‘themuns’, the British people, the middle class and immigrants are critical of a small element of some of your culture?

    Why not just burn down a couple of Weatherspoons pubs while you’re at it?

  • MYtwocents

    its called total war.

  • MYtwocents

    what weatherspoons have to do with it, I don’t know, but shake the creeping irishness out , yes.

  • MYtwocents

    does one get to know which comment, deserved the yellow card, so that one can learn what not to type.

  • Mc Slaggart

    what CS wrote:

    ” nationalists have evolved and are now embracing the police to a substantial extent”

    Which you clarified as:

    “Bit hard to take, that. SF and the IRA did not support the PSNI for the first six years of its existence. Prior to then they had been insisting on the complete disbandment of the RUC. They relaxed their requirements, which is why I said “evolved”.

    Nationalists have evolved from a completely pointless and unattainable objective of trying to overthrow the union either through violence or by backdooring the British and Irish governments.”

    ==========================================

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    MYtwocents

    You’re not making any sense.

    Should we then get rid of various Irish symbols such as the red hand, the YCV badge, the RHC motto (lamh dearg abu), whisky, many tunes played by loyalist bands, murals & banners of people who were proud to be Irish (Edward Carson, the SAS’s Blair Mayne), the Irish regiments of the British army, the Books of the Dead in St Anne’s Cathedral, the big Celtic cross on the side of St Anne’s, the celtic cross that is the IFA badge, the ‘I’ in IFA, the ‘Ireland’ in Northern Ireland….

    Follow your master plan and we’re left with a group of people in shell suits and bowler hats whom will still be regarded as paddies when they go to England.

    We’ve been stripping back and surrendering parts of our ancestry and culture for nearly a century.

    It has not made us any more British.

    To most people we’re just a bunch of paddies with union flags all over the place.

    Sacrificing culture in the name of preserving culture is a strange strategy.