Unionism to make ‘graduated response’ to no Ardoyne return parade

The Parades Commission have again ruled that there will be no return parade past Ardoyne, consistent with its previous rulings in 2013 and subsequently.

The unionist response has been pretty immediate. Not only have all the unionist parties walked out of the wider talks at Stormont, but there has also been an attempt to provide a unified front in a statement issued by DUP leader Peter Robinson, UUP leader Mike Nesbitt, TUV leader Jim Allister, PUP leader Billy Hutchinson and Ian McLaughlin of the Ulster Political Research Group.

“We do so to avert violence and destruction on our streets with the attendant harm that this would cause to Northern Ireland’s community relations and reputation,” they said.

“If we are to convince unionists that violence is not the only response to those who have consistently succumbed to republican violence and threats of violence, we must provide alternative means to channel justified anger and outrage.

“There will be a graduated unionist response involving the Orange Institution, the PUL (Protestant Unionist Loyalist) community and political unionism. Unionist leaders are willing to share the strain within the political process. Political action in tandem with peaceful and lawful protests is the path we must follow.”

Of course, if that ‘graduated response’ becomes less peaceful and unlawful, as has repeatedly been the case in recent years, the chances of any accountability from the leaders of unionism/loyalism will be zero. Anyone looking for possible signs of political maturity or leadership in the joint statement will be disappointed. Perhaps, for just once, they might abide by the Parade Commission’s ruling and see what happens.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Only 27% of the people living on the Crumlin Rd want parades banned from passing by. Why should their rights be more important than the rest??

    It’s not about percentages.

    If it’s the noise that’s an issue, I’m sure the bands are happy to walk past to a single drumbeat.

    It’s not about noise either.

    It’s about drunken sectarian wankers singing sectarian songs.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Look, here’s the long and the short of it. The Orange Order has spent decades refusing to talk to or attempt to meet the concerns of people who live along or near to parade routes. It is too late for it to recover the situation. It is unlikely that a return parade will ever go ahead. The prospect of violence and protests make it even less likely.

    “graduated protest” is a code word. Unionism is calling people out onto the streets once more to block roads, riot, and attack police. It will bear responsibility for any violence which occurs. God help us if anyone gets killed.

  • Tugger

    Comrade Stalin: It’s about drunken sectarian wankers singing sectarian songs.

    What percentage of the half a million people who take part in or spectate during the Twelfth are they?

  • Tugger

    Comrade Stalin: It is unlikely that a return parade will ever go ahead. The prospect of violence and protests make it even less likely.

    And yet all the evidence points to the opposite. Sustained violence against the PSNI nearly always results in their capitulation and rewards from the Parades Commission.

    Where have you been the past few decades??

  • Niall Noigiallach

    “Catholic residents were out watching the Whiterock parade in their dozens last weekend on the Springfield Rd. Not the IRA-organised protest – I’m talking about catholic families and couples standing in their gardens with a cup of tea or tin of beer enjoying the spectacle further on up the road. Why can’t the people of Ardoyne do likewise?”

    Complete and utter fabrication. I am directly challenging this as an untrue and completely false statement based on the fact that I was there, lived in the area for years and family members live in those houses.

    This is another myth about parades that is spouted – Catholics actually enjoy them. They all really love them and they’re a day out for everyone. Absolute nonsense and lies.

    What would you say Tugger if I told you that in fact last Saturday one of the drummers in said parade clearly looked at said residents in their garden and while not shouting or screaming, mouthed “fenian bastards” at them?

  • Tugger

    Niall Noigiallach: Complete and utter fabrication. I am directly challenging this as an untrue and completely false statement based on the fact that I was there, lived in the area for years and family members live in those houses.

    This is another myth about parades that is spouted – Catholics actually enjoy them. They all really love them and they’re a day out for everyone. Absolute nonsense and lies.

    What would you say Tugger if I told you that in fact last Saturday one of the drummers in said parade clearly looked at said residents in their garden and while not shouting or screaming, mouthed “fenian bastards” at them?

    It’s not nonsense and lies. I seen with my own eyes between 30 – 50 people from the catholic homes on the Springfield Road either on the footpath or in their gardens watching the parade pass by. Some were holding a cup of tea, a couple were drinking tins of beer and a few were chatting to the police officers nearby.

    Why would I make something like that up??

  • SK

    So Tugger, who wants a Loyalist march to pass a Catholic area, would not permit a Nationalist march through a Protestant one. Doesn’t it speak volumes.

    Incidentally, since when is the march through Ardoyne a “religious procession?”.

    Here’s some footage of the last march in 2012:

    https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=264711027067189

    Does that look like a “religious procession” to you? Would you want that in front of your house?

    Both sides have to compromise. But that means unionists understanding that the days of them marching when and where they want, without dealing with the locals, are long gone. It means telling the hangers-on to stay away from contentious sections of their marches. It means showing a bit of respect and not pissing on churches or marching in circles outside of them.

    The local lodge only, with a single band, playing the minstrel boy or something equally innocuous as it passes the Ardoyne shops. No banners, no flags (sure it’s a “religious procession”, so why would you need them?) and an undertaking to heavily discipline anyone who cannot resist the urge to shit-stir. How would a compromise like that suit the average Tugger?

  • Niall Noigiallach

    They are the residents of that stretch of road, out making sure that those parading by don’t piss in their gardens, break windows or scream obscenities at their kids like they did in previous years.

    Nobody was there taking part in the festivities, you can be absolutely certain of that

  • Tugger

    SK: So Tugger, who wants a Loyalist march to pass a Catholic area, would not permit a Nationalist march through a Protestant one. Doesn’t it speak volumes.

    Why do you have to tell lies?

    I have not said anything of the sort and anyone following these comments can see you are a liar.

  • Tugger

    Niall Noigiallach: They are the residents of that stretch of road, out making sure that those parading by don’t piss in their gardens, break windows or scream obscenities at their kids like they did in previous years.

    Nobody was there taking part in the festivities, you can be absolutely certain of that

    Another mind reader I see…..

  • sitarman

    Tugger: “The past 15 years have proven that once this parade is blocked permanently, the focus will shift to Donegall Street. Then, once catholic violence/threats have put an end to that route they will move on to Albertbridge Road, Peters Hill, Ballynafeigh, etc, etc.”

    What, and you think forcing the parade up the road will stop that!? It’ll ENSURE it happens! No, it’s time the OO looked to the future with a long term strategy and not just winning a short lived victory. There is no other way but talking if you honestly want some sort of normalization.

    Look at the Donegall st. Protesters have said they would call off protests if parades continue to adhere to the PC rulings. Some real honest goodwill on both sides will solve most of the contentious parades. There may not be a resolution to them all but if it stops this escalating into something bigger evolving many more parades then this is the only way.

    What solution can you conceive of that will result in parades getting to where they want to go without continuing problems & conflict? Paramilitary violence? You must be crazy if you think that will fix anything. It’s time YOU woke up!

  • SK

    Oh sorry, so you would be okay with a load nationalists marching past your front door then? Sorry I must have missed the post where you said that’s absolutely fine with you.

  • mycousinvinny

    Could a Unionist who supports the walkout from talks please try to explain how the decision of the Parades Commission justifies said walkout ?

    The talks, which covered more (important) issues than just parades included the future and likely reform of the very same Parades Commission.

    If I was cynical I would perhaps suggest this immediate joint approach by all Unionists was convenient and unlikely to have emerged just today. I might also query Peter Robinson’s prophetic decision not to leave on holiday. But, such cynicism may well be entirely misplaced (I genuinely mean that). So, over to U….

  • Tugger

    sitarman: What, and you think forcing the parade up the road will stop that!? It’ll ENSURE it happens!

    And yet the evidence clearly shows those who commit or threaten the most violence get what they want. Pay attention.

    Look at the Donegall st. Protesters have said they would call off protests if parades continue to adhere to the PC rulings. Some real honest goodwill on both sides will solve most of the contentious parades. There may not be a resolution to them all but if it stops this escalating into something bigger evolving many more parades then this is the only way.

    ….and then a dissident Donegall St resident group appears demanding further concessions as the previously agreed deal is no longer good enough for them. Exactly as has happened at Ardoyne in the past few years. What do the OO do then? Further appeasement of threats and violence???

    What solution can you conceive of that will result in parades getting to where they want to go without continuing problems & conflict? Paramilitary violence? You must be crazy if you think that will fix anything. It’s time YOU woke up!

    I am providing evidence to back up what I am saying – the PSNI and Parades Commission continually reward violence. What do you have to back up your ‘analysis’?

  • Tugger

    SK (profile) 3 July 2014 at 8:27 pm
    Oh sorry, so you would be okay with a load nationalists marching past your front door then? Sorry I must have missed the post where you said that’s absolutely fine with you.

    I’ve already answered this nonsense.

    An annual catholic religious procession dating back 100+ years would be no problem to me if I moved into a house along the route.

  • SK

    No, thing is, Tugger, I didn’t say Catholic religious procession, I said Nationalist Parade. You’re answering a question that nobody asked.

    Would you allow a nationalist parade past the front of your house?

  • Tugger

    Please describe what a ‘nationalist parade’ is and what it’s got to do with a discussion about freedom of religious expression.

  • BetsyGray

    In the words of the late Charlie Haughey….referring to the Northern
    Ireland state as “a failed political entity”….its times like now…the mad-marching season ..that I realized he was correct…conceived with force…maintained by force….and finally to be destroyed by that same force, as it fails to step into 21st century…..Old father time and its Frankenstein DNA will be its undoing..!

  • SK

    I’ve already described it. Twice, I believe. I’ve no desire to carry on like this for another page or so, but suffice to say your reluctance to answer is an answer in itself.

  • http://www.liamrobertson.com liamro

    Is Tugger for real or a troll to get the comment count up?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Tugger:

    What percentage of the half a million people who take part in or spectate during the Twelfth are they?

    A tiny percentage. Just like the fact that only a tiny percentage of this march has actually been curtailed.

    And yet all the evidence points to the opposite. Sustained violence against the PSNI nearly always results in their capitulation and rewards from the Parades Commission.

    When’s the last time the Orange Order marched down the Garvaghy Road then ?

    ….and then a dissident Donegall St resident group appears demanding further concessions as the previously agreed deal is no longer good enough for them.

    Why would they do that ?

    Broadly speaking, nationalists tolerate well-behaved Orange parades. There was a successful 12th in nationalist-controlled Derry last year.

    I recognize the “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile” rhetoric but it doesn’t seem to apply. A tiny fraction of Orange parades have their routes curtailed by an equally tiny fraction.

    If you want to go to war over the right to march a couple of hundred metres of road, all I can say is that it seems a bit disproportionate. All that you’ll do is land a lot of young loyalists in jail; and give the dissident republicans exactly what they want – proof that unionism is unreconstructed and that the Northern Ireland state is ungovernable, something they were not able to do in 25 years of sustained violence.

    (didn’t you used to post under the name “don’t drink bleach” ? Your particular brand of debating by introducing strawmen, references to “catholics” and avoiding the hard bits of the argument you can’t handle seem very familiar.)

  • Tugger

    Comrade Stalin: If you want to go to war over the right to march a couple of hundred metres of road, all I can say is that it seems a bit disproportionate. All that you’ll do is land a lot of young loyalists in jail; and give the dissident republicans exactly what they want – proof that unionism is unreconstructed and that the Northern Ireland state is ungovernable, something they were not able to do in 25 years of sustained violence.

    Ah yes, the old ‘protestants are to blame for the IRA murdering them’ line so well used by the appeasers of catholic violence in Northern Ireland over the years.

    “Give them what they want or they’ll kill you and it’ll be your own fault!”

  • CoisteBodhar

    No, the root cause is the rancid, poisonous bigotry endemic within Northern Ireland’s catholic community. Like the white racists who refused to let black schoolchildren into their area, they are threatening violence as they don’t want protestants walking past their local shops.

    This comment is absolutely golden. There is no point trying to help you to see another point of view.
    I actually think this is the beginning of a calculated attempt at removing the devolved institutions

  • sitarman

    Tugger, i’d much rather put my analysis to the test than yours!

    So, are you saying that if the UVF shot a few people dead then the PSNI would let the parade up the road? You think that’ll fix things? You think people will just accept that and stop protesting? And when the next parade comes along and there’s thousands more protesters than before, then the paramilitaries just have to shoot a few more people and the parade will be forced up again, and repeat with every following parade? You are mental if you think for one second that would happen.

    The threat of republican violence may well stop the parade from walking up the road but i can assure you now that loyalist violence or the threat of it will not force the parade through. The government simply won’t allow it. The government fears world opinion & pressure much more than they fear you, and right now loyalism doesn’t have many friends in the world.

    The threat of violence from hardline republicans is a bitter pill to swallow but returning that threat will not work. Not anymore.

  • Tugger

    sitarman: So, are you saying that if the UVF shot a few people dead then the PSNI would let the parade up the road? You think that’ll fix things? You think people will just accept that and stop protesting? And when the next parade comes along and there’s thousands more protesters than before, then the paramilitaries just have to shoot a few more people and the parade will be forced up again, and repeat with every following parade? You are mental if you think for one second that would happen.

    When you reward violence it only encourages more violence – how many times do I have to repeat this?

    The cowards in the PSNI and Parades Commission will have only themselves to blame if that cycle were to begin.

  • CoisteBodhar

    No, the root cause is the rancid, poisonous bigotry endemic within Northern Ireland’s catholic community. Like the white racists who refused to let black schoolchildren into their area, they are threatening violence as they don’t want protestants walking past their local shops.

    This sort of chat puts years on me.

  • tacapall

    “When you reward violence it only encourages more violence – how many times do I have to repeat this”

    So obviously what your annoyed about is that the parades commission didn’t cave in to orange order violence ?

  • looneygas

    What’s the big fuss?
    One section of the community is very fond of the parade and the paraders.
    Another section doesn’t like it or them one bit.
    So the PC cuts the baby in half.
    Very wise, I say.

  • Mick Fealty

    The summer weather brings them out Liam.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    I trust that those allowing themselves to get wound up eventually will realize that the worst thing to do with a troll is to feed it.
    Remember UPC and his various aliases?

  • Tugger

    Why is someone with a different opinion a ‘troll’?

    I have provided evidence to back up everything I have said.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Ah yes, the old ‘protestants are to blame for the IRA murdering them’ line so well used by the appeasers of catholic violence in Northern Ireland over the years.

    I did not say that or anything like it.

    You are Don’t Drink Bleach. I claim my five pounds.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Matthew 7:16

  • looneygas

    Are you contrasting Orange parades with Pride parades?

  • redstar2011

    Let’s not rule out the possibility of the PC ruling being reversed……..

  • Comrade Stalin

    The ruling is not going to be reversed. If the Unionists want Drumcree at the top of the Crumlin Road, they’re going to have it.

  • redstar2011

    CS what makes you so sure PC wont back down?

    They have often enough before

  • TheHist

    Tugger you make the following assertion “I am providing evidence to back up what I am saying – the PSNI and Parades Commission continually reward violence. What do you have to back up your ‘analysis’?”

    If it’s true that the PSNI and Parades Commission “continually reward violence” why aren’t they allowing the parade to go back along the Crumlin Road this year? After last year’s violence, hence rewarding the Orange Order? This notion of rewarding violence is another misconstrued phobia that leaders of Unionism are putting forward to increase tension instead of showing proper leadership – it’s time the OO and leaders of Unionism sat down with a long term strategy with resident groups to try and hammer out a compromise deal!

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m not aware of the Parades Commission ever reversing a ruling except for that one occasion a week ago over Portadown.

  • MYtwocents

    Tugger, keep the faith.

  • MYtwocents

    The SOS will overturn the “ruling” should events dictate.

  • Tugger

    How will these muppets on the Parades Commission sleep at night if lives are lost over the coming weeks? Imagine having something like that on your conscience.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The SoS power to review PC decisions has to my knowledge never been invoked before.

    The actions of the unionists in walking out of talks and talking about a “graduated response” actually makes it politically more difficult for the SOS to overturn the ruling than it otherwise would be, as no matter what the rights and wrongs are she will be seen to have caved into their direct threat.

    The Parades Commission’s justification for rerouting the parade on the basis of poor conduct by the Orange Order at Twaddell over the course of the past 12 months is too significant for the SoS to simply set aside.

  • Tugger

    Comrade Stalin: The Parades Commission’s justification for rerouting the parade on the basis of poor conduct by the Orange Order at Twaddell over the course of the past 12 months is too significant for the SoS to simply set aside.

    The decision was made based on the threat of catholic violence. Did you not read the determination?

  • BetsyGray

    Tugger, the last time I heard that bollocks… three small children and a RUC man lost there lives….. how did the Orange Order sleep in their beds…..?….. they lost the argument…but got their pound of flesh.

  • MYtwocents

    The SOS will do anything to stop a return to war (bombs on the mainland).
    Over the last (say) ten years, the threat of the (still active) IRA returning the place to “war” has lead to the PC banning parades, should the SOS become convinced that a loyalist backlash against this “ruling” will make the return to “war” More likely, she will, on advise, allow the paraders to return home.

  • tacapall

    “should the SOS become convinced that a loyalist backlash against this “ruling” will make the return to “war” More likely, she will, on advise, allow the paraders to return home

    How is she going to be convinced by that ?

  • MYtwocents

    taca, do you want to rephrase your question into one I can comprehend.

  • carl marks

    Twaddell didn’t work, the flegs didn’t work Holy Cross didn’t work, Drumcree didn’t work so we will have more of the same! Law of averages got to work sometime. Maybe a bigger caravan will work?
    Unionists don’t really do politics, the Tories are convinced they will need the unionist MPs support after the next election, the southern government would love to bloody SFs nose and the best the leaders of unionism can do in talks where they will have the support (if tacit) off two government is walk out and stonewall, sure next time when after the British elections and perhaps the government in power doesn’t need them anymore and the shinners are in government in the south then they won’t like how it turns out but hey, way break that old tradition of pulling defeat out of the Jaws of victory!
    The Rev Gibson stood behind both the DUP and UUP spokespersons as they announced that they were pulling out of the talks! Suppose somebody has to make sure they are reading from the approved OO Hymn book.

  • MYtwocents

    “Maybe a bigger caravan will work?”.
    Maybe a bigger stick will work, that is after all, the message the PC is giving out.

  • tacapall

    “should the SOS become convinced that a loyalist backlash against this “ruling” will make the return to “war” More likely, she will, on advise, allow the paraders to return home”

    Did you not write the words above ?

    When you threaten a return to war are you threatening the British government that you will murder Irish citizens or British Catholics if you Protestant British dont did get to parade a few yards up an Irish road ?

  • Tugger

    BetsyGray (profile) 4 July 2014 at 12:20 am
    Tugger, the last time I heard that bollocks… three small children and a RUC man lost there lives….. how did the Orange Order sleep in their beds…..?….. they lost the argument…but got their pound of flesh.

    I don’t understand what a personal dispute between the Quinns’ uncle and Garfield Gilmour has got to do with the Orange Order.

  • BetsyGray

    Tugger…FYI

    http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinn_brothers'_killings

    I hate deviate from thread …but to dismiss this gruesome act as any thing other than barbarically sectarian .. For a grudge that went wrong defies belief.

    I suppose Constable Frankie O’Reilly was the victim of grudge also.

  • MYtwocents

    Betsy, your not the first to link this horror with the OO, and just like the rest of those who do, you provide no evidence that the OO,Drumcree or any parading dispute motivated the attack.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    From the BBC news website for Northern Ireland:

    ‘A report for the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Investment (DETI) said “social unrest over parades and flags” had potentially had an impact [on tourism].

    It also said the local tourism industry was worried about “continuing sectarianism and racial prejudice”.

    The report said there needed to be “concerted action to promote a safe and secure image of Northern Ireland, including targeted marketing”.’

    Just how are they going to attempt this? The only way that such an image can effectivly be prrojected is by entirely ignoring reality. But when was such an action from amongst our framers of policy ever a surprise ……..

  • latcheeco

    Tugger,
    We appreciate the concern, but don’t worry yourself unduly about future dead taigs. There isn’t really gonna be a next time round because Special Branch, M15, FRU and MI6 aren’t gonna be there to ride shotgun and do all the heavy lifting for loyal loyalists. Most of the young men and women of Ulster are taig now anyway, so dreams of 1912 or even 1985 are well… really just dreams.

    And if your ominously threatening predications of Christians murdering other Christians (defenseless strays no doubt) over a Christian parade came true, all it would bring in the end is more failure, jail, and misery for loyalism and sure would that be worth it just to walk up a road that said Christians already walked down that morning?

    Anyway, we both know the current crop of unionist leaders won’t be there for that fight- not really- because they know they’d lose personally in the end, and they care a lot less about loyal loyalists than they do about international travel, peerages, and dirty laundry. They will of course wind up and manipulate said loyalists as far as they can for their own benefit in the meantime though.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    This reason why this has arisen is that Nationalists right across the board have failed to understand the importance of the Loyal Orders and parading within the Unionist community. Instead as a community we are subjected via the media, on this forum and across many others including social media outlets to sectarian abuse, caricatures, stereotyping from ‘holier than thou’ commentators.

    Nationalists pardon the pun have built the bonfires and thrown kerosene on them and are now complaining that they don’t like the results.
    Unionism does need to fix some inherent issues internally but Nationalists have issues of their own to rectify.

  • Jagdip

    Has anyone read the PC decision on the notification (there are at least three for different OO “lodges” – this is the link to one, https://www.paradescommission.org/viewparade.aspx?id=48168)
    The PC acknowledges “sincere and meaningful” talks between the OO and residents. However, the PC is unhappy that the talks were not sustained, though it doesn’t point the finger at the OO (or anyone else) for failings.
    The PC notes “actions, such as the call by some within the Orange Order to protest against the July 2013 determination, a protest which culminated in violence, undermines the progress delivered elsewhere”
    The PC says “on the issue of whether the parade organiser has respected the July 2013 determination, the Commission refers to the disorder which occurred on 12 July 2013 and for a number of days after. The Commission has also considered the nightly and weekly parades which have been held in protest against the July 2013 determination. The Commission understands that these nightly and weekly protest parades reflect the significance to the Orange Order of a “return home”. However, the frequency of these parades has impacted on community life and community relations in the local area. The Commission has considered the 76 breaches of determinations on the nightly and weekly protest parades, most of which occurred prior to April 2014, after which there has been substantive compliance. The improvement in compliance cannot be deemed to fulfil entirely the conditions laid out in the July 2013 route map”
    When the PC is balancing competing human rights, and producing a compromise, then both sides don’t get 100%. The decision seems rational and unassailable to me.

  • Jagdip

    The response by the LUPO leadership has been dismal.
    Okay, none are calling protesters out on the street, though none appear to be calling for protesters to remain off the streets either.
    The “graduated response” starts with throwing their dolls out of the pram and presumably ends with throwing bricks and firebombs at the PSNI.
    The boy who has cried “wolf!” so often has threatened, yet again, to collapse the institutions, is that the third time now in the past 12 months after Castlederg and the OTRs?
    The only talks aimed at long term solutions to parading, flags and the past are abandoned, though the DUP didn’t even turn up for their opening with elected representatives, so their heart was hardly in it anyway.
    SF, on the other hand, emerge spotless, and was it any coincidence yesterday that Gerry Kelly issued two statements simultaneously, one welcoming the PC decision and the other welcoming the building of a new school and facilities. The message is: parade or no parade, this country is moving forward to a better tomorrow, and that is where our priorities lie.

  • babyface finlayson

    Jagdip
    What the ruling seems to be saying is that if the OO had accepted the previous ruling and shown willingness to talk they would have got a different result. So they brought this on themselves.
    I seem to remember a request to walk the return route early in the morning, which was turned down?
    Given that the outward walk is deemed fairly unproblematic, being in the morning, I wonder if something like that might not provide a solution to the impasse.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Joe Hoggs

    “This reason why this has arisen is that Nationalists right across the board have failed to understand the importance of the Loyal Orders and parading within the Unionist community. Instead as a community we are subjected via the media, on this forum and across many others including social media outlets to sectarian abuse, caricatures, stereotyping from ‘holier than thou’ commentators.”

    That’s simply not true.

    The fact that marching, bands and lodges means so much to so many communities is probably the main reason why most nationalists DON’T ask for them to be banned.

    If nationalists were as opposed to marching as some people say they are then there would be a LOT more protests.
    There would be less marching in Londonderry, Rossnowlagh, Rasharkin, Magherafelt etc.

    I’m afraid Joe, in the grand scheme of things, at the moment (apart from a few residents groups) the nationalists are the more tolerant of the two main groups.
    ————————–

    There are many angles and problems within this topic.

    As you know, a big part of it is planet Belfast.

    They (seemingly) simply can’t conduct themselves in a fashion similar to their rural brethren.

    Another one is the number of people who can’t react rationally to points of view.
    e.g. The Rev Kennaway is NOT a provo sympathiser, he is an ex-Orangeman who does not tolerate any excuses regarding bad behaviour and disrespect to houses of God.
    But people are trying to paint him in a ludicrous light.

    Seeing compromise as a ‘surrender’ is another one.

    With regards to sectarian abuse. Well, I haven’t seen any direct sectarian abuse on this web page (yet) and with regards to the real world, I’m sure there are nationalists who love to hurl insults at marchers.
    Likewise, I’m very sure there are marchers that love to hurl insults at nationalists.

    You’ve commendably highlighted some of the failings of the OO.

    But these failings won’t be fixed by blindly sticking together and seeing everyone else as ‘the enemy’.

    The list of people who are now tired of the antics of some parades now extends to:
    Catholics, immigrants, British tax payers, non-marching unionists and Protestants, British politicians, American diplomats, unionists who used to march but have been embarrassed into giving up and tourists.

    Surely they may have a point between them?

  • Jagdip

    So the “graduated response” was in fact a “tapered response” which began with “NO!NO!NO!” to the PC decision, dialled down to “NO!NO!No” to the Haass talks because there is a recognition that a solution will ultimately – after all the tantrums – involve talks.

    That tapered off to “NO!NO!no!” to the North South ministerial council, where the “boycott” was really just a diary conflict with the LUPOs busy in Belfast.

    That tapered off to “NO!No!no!” to calling protesters out on the streets, and has Mike Nesbitt now specifically asked for protesters to stay off the streets?

    That tapered off to “NO!no!no” with the abandonment of “mass mobilisation” when the LUPOs realised its potential for self-destructive counter-productive chaos and the fact that themmuns could mob together as well.

    That tapered off to “No!no!no!” as the OO ditched “knee jerk” reactions, which presumably means the LUPOs will now return to Haass talks or similar aimed at a consensus resolution of the flags, parades and past issues.

    That tapered off to “no!no!no!” with the realisation that the LUPOs couldn’t even get protesters out of the bed in the morning to protest. As Gerald Solinas, an organiser of the Twadell caravan protest, told the News Letter “I think when they [LUPOs] want to riot in the evening period they can get plenty of volunteers, but not early in the morning” Wasn’t such laziness and aversion to something resembling work, once a badge of themmuns?

    So, the “graduated response” promised on Thursday last has tapered off to a whimperish “no, maybe, whatever” four days later.Wonderful leadership!

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Danny Kennedy has suggested that the N.I. executive should discuss the PC determination on Tuesday. Grandstanding or a case of the head staggers?

  • Comrade Stalin

    As Stephen Farry and others have pointed out, it makes no sense for the Unionists to walk out of talks covering parades (among other things) and then turn around and demand that parades are discussed in the Assembly and the Executive.

    It shows that they want to blow smoke in front of the cameras rather than actually negotiating.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Comrade Stalin[8.09] How little the OO and DUP et al learned from the loss of Drumcree, and how easily they forgot about why it ended for them, in the deaths of the Quinn brothers, but of course they are incapable of sympathy for those victims of their neurotic obsessions.
    They sayit only takes six or seven minutes to pass the shops, so whe big deal, Well if the march is so little a deal, threatening Stormont and locals with riots is well over the top. What unionism really wants is repartition to get themselves back their fixed majority, but can’t admit openly because of their spurious claims to be democrats……, as if.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Coiste Bodhar [9.03]Before the council elections I wouldn’t have expected Robbo to cut and run from Stormont over this farce but the Duplicity party lost their dominance over unionism and took a psychological hit from that, so perhaps robbo might decide he can’t go into assembly elections tied to mart, so maybe the top table at dup might be in kamikhaze mode after all.

  • MYtwocents

    budgets not passed today, and won’t be passed tomorrow.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Cs (9.33) i have to say tonights statement by unionists with the other 3 parties is a direct contradiction of their plans when they walked out, which leads to suspicion they have got cold feet because they didn’t think thru the graduation and have retreated behind the parapet. If there’s no trouble at 12th unionists are going to look very silly

  • GEF

    “They say it only takes six or seven minutes to pass the shops, so whats the big deal,”

    One simple way to resolve this nonsense is, If the remaining section of the Crumlin Road (after passing the Ardoyne shops) has not been blocked by the Parades Commission the PSNI could use police vans to drive the 3 LOLs plus one band past this contentious section of the road. Then the 3 LOLs can disembark the vans and finish their parade peacefully up to Ligoniel Orange hall.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    How about if the three lodges complete with just their banners but without their bands/supporters were allowed to pass the area – would this be acceptable?

  • Annie AuldIrn

    Joe
    Can you explain why any OO (religious) parade needs the quasi-military paraphanalia of bands and camp followers?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Well we’ve now seen that the “graduated response” is to ask the Secretary of State for an inquiry.

    I don’t see where Robinson is going with this move. Any inquiry will be appointed by the Secretary of State, and, as such, the government will have a fairly substantial influence over both the inquiry and its outcome. Does Robinson really expect any inquiry to find anything other than that the Parades Commission acted within the law and that the Orange Order and Unionism were wrong to oppose it ?

  • Annie AuldIrn

    Robbo-minister is buying time, hoping that his request is granted then the whole affair can be kicked into the long grass until such times as a report is published. In the meantime, he can claim to be “doing something”.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Are the OO and others likely to be fooled ? It won’t be long before Jim Allister calls this game what it is.

  • Annie AuldIrn

    A Good Question, CS. As I read it, someone has had a quiet word with the PUL top-dogs. I expect there will be no escalation beyond the “normal” load of twaddle.

  • Mister_Joe

    This is nothing less than ridiculous. There is already a legal avenue that they could avail of – apply to the Court for a judicial review.

  • Mister_Joe

    Joe, why are you asking us? I personally would find such a thing acceptable but the OO needs to talk with the residents and make such a proposal.

  • Annie AuldIrn

    But … but … but … you don’t understand. The OO don’t do talkin’, only walkin’

  • Comrade Stalin

    Judicial reviews are expensive. For something like this you’d be talking about a substantial five-figure sum in legal fees – at the very least. And no guarantee of a favourable outcome. Any review would be to test the conduct of the Parades Commission against its remit in legislation, and it seems unlikely to me that the PC have been careless with their brief.

    My best guess is that Robinson knows that there’s feck all he can do, but he wants to come away with at least something that will kick things down the road (as Annie said) until the marching season is over. I think he genuinely does not want violence on the streets, knowing the damage that it does to the cause.

  • Mister_Joe

    “twaddle” – good one Annie.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    I know this is naïve, but, given that Nesbitt can’t out fleg the TUV or out backstab the DUP then would it not be worth his while going against the flow?

    This is all going to end up as a hash anyway for unionism, he might as well bale out while he still can.

    The UUP should (I feel) be more about decency and respect rather than chasing the flegger vote. (yes yes, 50 year junta notwithstanding)

    There’s definitely a market for mild unionism. The hard line unionist vote shrinks with demographics, mild unionism can potentially expand into the Catholic vote, fleggerism most certainly can not.

    Maybe I’m just too removed from NI to see the drawbacks?

    Is it the constant fear of being labelled a Lundy?

    Time for a defenestration of flag methinks. A new direction. Let the DUP, TUV, and PUP march the people up the hill while the UUP watches from the sidelines and picks up the pieces further down the line.

    Any thoughts?

  • Annie AuldIrn

    Do you really think the typical Unionist voter will abandon the comfort zone for new territory? Not going to happen – until another purveyor of “blood and thunder” from the same school as Dr. No emerges.

    How many Unionist parties have been launched since 1970? I counted 14, of which 8 sank without trace, leaving no discernible impact on mainstream Unionism. Of the remainder, only one party has had a major impact on the Unionist demographic. I’m sure you can guess which.

    Have disillusioned Unionist voters converted en-masse to the Alliance Party? Why not?

  • Comrade Stalin

    The biggest fly in the ointment is the common misconception that the UUP have a strong moderate element. They don’t; the moderates are weak. They don’t want to come up with compromises, or a moderate challenge to the DUP.