Unionism: Bourbons with Big Drums

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Can you hear it?

We’ve bridged the months to July, the rather expensive bonfires (but only for ratepayers!) are under construction and the once faint but now increasingly detectable sound of the Big Drum beating can be heard far and wide.

In Dervock, they hear it, and so did the parishioners of the Church of Our Lady and John the Evangelist where local loyalists erected a flag inside the grounds of the church before painting the gates and kerbstones at its entrance in Her Majesty’s colours. The local UPRG representative informed The Irish News that young lads had done it “out of frustration and anger.” Sure how else are our youth to express such feelings other than by engaging in acts of sectarian intimidation against the minority catholic population of the area?

In Loyal Moygashel, they hear it, and so did any member of our ethnic minority community unfortunate enough to have seen the carefully stenciled hate threat, warning local landlords that the crime of ‘leasing property to foreign nationals will not be tolerated.’

In East Belfast, it’s loud and clear, and its impressive repetitive strain has been heard over the years as summer solstice gave way to preparations for cultural expression (who can forget yesteryear’s invasion of Short Strand and the tea & biscuits with Peter at Stormont that followed?)

The non racist picketing of a house of a man who coincidentally happened to be black and not from ‘up the country’ was followed by the erection of KKK flags in a part of the city now very familiar with news bulletins reporting the aftermath of race hate attacks. But will they burn the flags of the Poles again next week, or will that honour be reserved for the nearer- and even less dearer- neighbours?

Over in North Belfast, the Pride of Ardoyne Flute Band hear it.

The band has been at the centre of the Crumlin Road parade dispute. Its banner depicts the names of deceased UVF members. A photograph, believed to be at Twaddell recently, shows its banner being carried by a member wearing a Combat 18 shirt.

A number of band members were questioned by the PSNI last night in Tennent Street PSNI Station over alleged Parades Commission determination breaches.

The DUP were prominently represented along with loyalists of all hues, with Minister Nelson McCausland and MLA William Humphrey in attendance. The latter even addressed the crowd after meeting with the PSNI to determine how long the men would be questioned for.

One of the band members got in a spot of bother last year when proclaiming that he was praying for the violent deaths of every child, woman and man in Ardoyne.

Along with his fellow band members, it is his inability to parade through a catholic area in Belfast’s most sensitive sectarian interface which has led the DUP and UUP to leave political talks and threaten a ‘graduated’ programme of protest which can have but one outcome- to make the drum beat even louder.

Think on that for a minute.

On the Lisburn Road, they hear it. Leading loyalist Billy McBride, of the UDA-aligned UPRG, couldn’t have been clearer with his threats once the PSNI had the temerity to challenge loyalists erecting flags the length of the Lisburn Road (no doubt to shared gasps of horror from the affluent residents- Catholic, Protestant and Dissenter- of that part of the city.)

Says Billy of the prospect of the PSNI stopping loyalists from said practice, “They’re going to see more and more [flags.] If it comes to the bit we’ll do everywhere.”

The flags went up. The drum beat ever louder.

Ulster’s leadership cabal, now helpfully united beneath the pathetically crude PUL abbreviation, continues to struggle with our new dispensation, and in the process performs a modern interpretation of Lundy’s role, betraying a proud unionist people requiring guidance to the promise of a shared future.

Loyal Ulster’s Groundhog season is decidedly warmer and spicier than the late winter version celebrated in Hollywood, but it is no less predictable.

A quarter century has passed since Cork professor, JJ Lee, wrote of the necessity of unionism engaging in a process of self-examination to escape “from the paralyzing shackles of supremacist thinking.”

A quarter century from now the elusive dream of a British Ulster will be forever shattered as the shades of green finally blend equally with those of orange.

Tick tock, tick tock. It matters little.

As Talleyrand said of the Bourbons, “They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.”

History’s march is as unrelenting as it is unforgiving of those foolish enough to ignore its lessons.

  • Tugger

    Yes, the erection of a KKK flag by a lone idiot is representative of all of the people of east Belfast. The immediate removal of the flag in conjunction with local community representatives is not.

    I think we see where you’re coming from Chris.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Tugger,

    Given your characterisations of “Catholics” as terrorists do you really think you are in a position to complain about prejudice ?

  • Tugger

    Once again, please provide evidence where I have said that.

  • märsta

    “Yes, the erection of a KKK flag by a lone idiot is representative of all of the people of east Belfast. ”

    I must have missed that bit – Where did Chris state this?

  • SK

    Great piece, Chris.

  • TheHistorian

    Tugger – what evidence do you have to suggest it was a “lone idiot” who erected the flag?

    The erection of the KKK flag is representative of the views exposed by elements within the unionist community namely racism, sectarianism, racial and religious supremacy towards ethnic minorities and Catholics! Why did PUL community representatives not take down the KKK flag if it wasn’t representative of feelings in the are?

  • TheHistorian

    Very interesting piece as always Chris!

  • Tugger

    TheHistorian: The erection of the KKK flag is representative of the views exposed by elements within the unionist community namely racism, sectarianism, racial and religious supremacy towards ethnic minorities and Catholics!

    Sweeping statements about hundreds of thousands of people – sounds like racism to me…..

  • Turgon

    “A quarter century from now the elusive dream of a British Ulster will be forever shattered as the shades of green finally blend equally with those of orange.

    Tick tock, tick tock. It matters little.”

    But Gerry told us about a united Ireland by 2016: seems that clock is loosing time rather badly.

  • TheHistorian

    If you read the comment carefully you will see the word “elements” which refers to a minority – surely not a sweeping comment as you suggest! And most certainly not racist by any sense!

  • TheHistorian

    British Ulster??? didn’t know that even existed!

  • BetsyGray

    Tick-tock indeed…..and they know it….!!….that drum will get louder…..the flegs will get bigger..(if possible)…parading more numerous…and on and on the Orange order go.. to where nobody knows…

  • Niall Noigiallach

    Brilliant piece

  • Sp12

    “As Talleyrand said of the Bourbons, “They have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.””

    In the meantime a helpful distraction from McCausland and the wider DUP’s relationship with Turkington and the ‘developers’ and those UN representatives unwelcome comments on housing allocation in North Belfast, as well as the Swish family’s continuing efforts to bury any reports into the circumstances of Iris’ cuckolding of her husband.

  • Tir Chonaill Gael

    “…seems that clock is loosing time rather badly.”

    What the hell does “loosing time” mean?

    Chris: excellent piece. Maith thú féin.

  • Turgon

    Tir Chonaill Gael,
    You are of course quite correct. I made a significant mistake with spelling putting in an extra “o”. I meant losing not loosing.

    Continuing the theme of mistakes Gerry has just made mistakes with several decades it seems at least accruing to Mr. Donnelly – along with mistakes about family paedophilia, songs not yet written, when he was in gaol, assorted people he did not know etc. etc… Yes compared to such mistakes using an extra “o” is truly a disaster.

  • Tir Chonaill Gael

    No worries, Turgon: it’s not like you to be a pedantic little prick or anything. Cheers.

  • belfastboyo

    Excellent article Chris, hit the nail on the head.
    Unionism cant adapt, they are predictable.
    When the world changes the species that don’t evolve or adapt go extinct. Those who adapt and change to a suit a different climate thrive.

  • MYtwocents

    Can you hear the drum chris.

  • between the bridges

    lol, CD sure what do ye expect from themuns…

  • Mick Fealty

    Tugger,

    If you are really Don’t Drink Bleach, then you already know where this all goes, right?

    Others,

    Don’t let Chris’s drumbeat fool you into thinking that the usual rules don’t apply.

  • Banjaxed

    Excellent piece, Chris.

    And the paucity of thought on the PUL side, including (alas) the usually articulate and verbose, but nonetheless interesting, Turgon, depresses me. Every comment above from one or other of their spokespeople is kneejerk whaboutery. Where is the forward thinking, the need for advancement of the education of their children – jobs, health issues, welfare and having – fecking hell – LIVES!

    Good God, is that is what it’s all about? The addiction to marching through areas where they’re not wanted any longer, flaunting victories from more than 300 years ago in our faces, playing provocative tunes (aka hymns, doncha know – wink, wink ) outside RC churches, painting the same kerbs RW&B, planting union ‘flegs’ in same grounds and, nearer home, flooding interface areas in Belfast with ‘flegs’ twice the size and double the number of last year.

    In other countries it would be termed Fascism. In Norn Irn, we call it, ‘Our only crime is Loyalty’.

    What’s not to like about supremacist fantasies?!?

    In all seriousness, all I can see is a corner with people wielding paint brushes so furiously that the leaders don’t or won’t realise that the walls will not budge any further and that the corner is getting increasingly smaller.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Belfast boyo

    “Unionism cant adapt, they are predictable.”

    I can’t argue there, BUT there is a small part of my detached, overly optimistic self that thinks they can.

    Once ALL the leaders, King’s men and King’s horses have failed them then the penny might drop.

    In Animal Farm the work horse’s solution for every problem was “I will work harder!”.

    Unionism’s response for everything was “we will fleg harder!”

    After a while the horse ended up being sent to the glue factory….

    Once the threats of the ‘loyalist backlash’ fail then people will have no choice but to ask questions (and blame the f*nians too, naturally) and hopefully then there’ll be some change.

    Maybe there won’t be a ‘defenestration of fleg’ but maybe other voices will be allowed a fair hearing without the usual cries of Lundyism.

    We’ll see (I’m not betting on it though).
    ——————————————-
    Banjaxed

    “flaunting victories from more than 300 years ago in our faces”

    I think that is indicative of the main problems with the unionist side of the fence, also demonstrated by their respective songs: unionists and loyalists sing songs about the past, nationalists and republicans sing songs about the future.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Just a few questions about Carnival season and the arguments that have been bandying about on slugger:

    1/ Nationalist intolerance vs nationalist watching parades:
    On one hand I’ve been reading cries of nationalist intolerance to Orange culture.
    Then sometimes I’ll hear how some Catholics and nationalists enjoy parades.

    Can someone clarify which is it? Because if they’re actively watching and enjoying parades then that would hint at tolerance (wouldn’t it?)

    2/ Nationalist intolerance vs number of parades in nationalist/mixed areas.

    As with above, we hear cries of nationalist hatred towards marching.

    Righto. But then we see successful 12th’s in places like Magherafelt and Londonderry and Carnlough.

    Furthermore, the nationalists of Magherafelt ‘tolerate’ the union flag up on the diamond 367 not to mention the loyalist arch which has Cromwell on it of all people (hardly a hero of Scottish-Irish Presbyterianism)

    So, which is it? Are they tolerant or not?

    3/ The dismissal of ‘a few’ bad egg parades vs the blanket branding of one community

    On one hand I’ve read that it’s wrong to judge all Orange parades on a few contentious parades.

    Fair enough. In fact, that’s quite a good point.
    Rossnowlagh is not North Belfast

    Then, does that mean then that supporters of said parades DON’T judge the entire catholic and nationalist community as intolerant on account of an identical number of protest groups?
    Cos I could have sworn that I read somewhere (here) that the nationalist community need to show tolerance…

    4/ Blaming republicans for stirring it all up vs giving republicans a PR bonanza

    Surely, IF all of themuns are hard-wired into Connelly House and take their orders from dear Leader and his minions then this would suggest that there is some sort of PR game afoot aimed at demonising the marching culture?

    If so, then how does reacting predictably, stubbornly and violently thwart the schemes of ‘the enemies of Ulster’?

    “Ha! Gerry wanted us to act like violent, intransigent villans in front of the TV cameras so that he could induce a sense of sympathy from a global audience! Well, we sure showed him!”

    Yours baffledly
    Tonbridge wells

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Should read “24/7/365″, not 367.

    Pedants.

  • cynic2

    I know Chris …..and in your closed little world view isn’t it awful for Nationalists to have to realise and come to terms with the fact that the Brits they want out exist live here and aren’t planning to go anywhere

    Then there is the small matter of green and orange mixing. Have a look at the polls on opinions for a United Ireland. A large amount of the “green” (as you would claim them no matter what their views) has turned a light red white and blue

    The saddest bit in all this is that, as a reasonably intelligent man, you cant get beyond a sectarian headcount view of politics

  • Gopher

    The Parades determination is fair given the state of the return parade, the Orange get to march to the field and I cannot see that being changed in the future no matter how much Republicans jump up and down, except if the Orange continue to act like idiots. As for the DUP politicians they have banned more events on spurious grounds from ELO in Ballymena to Radio One playing Belfast on a Sunday than I care to remember. The return parade is a drunken rabble and would clear no hoops any other event would have to jump through.

    The best thing the Orange could do to promote itself is would be disperse in the City Centre on the return.

  • MYtwocents

    Gopher, “disperse in the City Centre on the return.”,
    the bands, lodges, and supporters from the ardoyne and Ballysillan areas are making their way home, should the parade “disperse” in the city centre, those folk will still need to pass the shops on there way home, only they would do it in drips and drabs, spread out over hours.
    I see, easy prey for the GARC Bigots.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    This is a really constructive and insightful piece of writing that will ensure that Unionists on Slugger circle the wagons whilst Nationalists continue their never-ending attacks.

  • Doug

    MYtwocents (profile) says: 4 July 2014 at 8:30 am Gopher, “disperse in the City Centre on the return.”,
    the bands, lodges, and supporters from the ardoyne and Ballysillan areas are making their way home, should the parade “disperse” in the city centre, those folk will still need to pass the shops on there way home, only they would do it in drips and drabs, spread out over hours.
    I see, easy prey for the GARC Bigots.

    —————————–

    Taxis, busses, mini busses….? Just saying, if people didn’t feel safe walking through an area in small numbers there are other ways of avoiding that.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Doug ,

    Taxis, busses, mini busses….? Just saying, if people didn’t feel safe walking through an area in small numbers there are other ways of avoiding that.
    —————————————————————————-

    So you recognise there is a threat against Protestants in this area?

  • Gopher

    “This is a really constructive and insightful piece of writing that will ensure that Unionists on Slugger circle the wagons whilst Nationalists continue their never-ending attacks.”

    The opening post is the usual rubbish and the response is the usual rubbish. Instead of circling wagons could the Orange not bring itself into the 21st century? Today I believe Her Majesty is going to name a 65,000 ton ship which Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can serve on. Meanwhile the Orange Order and quite a few unionist politicians make the monumental bores of Irish Republicanism look interesting.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Gopher,

    The opening post is the usual rubbish and the response is the usual rubbish. Instead of circling wagons could the Orange not bring itself into the 21st century? Today I believe Her Majesty is going to name a 65,000 ton ship which Protestant, Catholic and Dissenter can serve on. Meanwhile the Orange Order and quite a few unionist politicians make the monumental bores of Irish Republicanism look interesting.

    —————————————————————————-

    How do you wish that Orangemen would embrace the 21st century?

  • Hopping The Border

    Joe,

    “This is a really constructive and insightful piece of writing that will ensure that Unionists on Slugger circle the wagons whilst Nationalists continue their never-ending attacks.

    Which parts of the piece are factually inaccurate?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Which parts of the piece are factually inaccurate?
    ———————————————————————–

    Hopping the Border,

    All of it. Mr. Donnelly is stereotyping the entire Unionist community based on a fraction of the Unionist community.

    One KKK flag now represents the thinking of all Loyalists – come on. This post by Chris is hatemongering at its worst with no counter balance given on unnecessary protests by Nationalists in Dungiven, racist attacks in West Belfast covering up of Child abuse by his party leader. Yes that’s whataboutery and it’s necessary in this instance.

    How also does Chris come to the conclusion that we’re on the brink of a UI?

  • MYtwocents

    joe, maybe all the members of Gerry’s ring, still cling to the 2016 dream.

  • Doug

    Joe_Hoggs (profile) says: 4 July 2014 at 8:52 am Doug ,

    Taxis, busses, mini busses….? Just saying, if people didn’t feel safe walking through an area in small numbers there are other ways of avoiding that.
    —————————————————————————-

    So you recognise there is a threat against Protestants in this area?

    ——————————-

    Wouldn’t know Joe – I’m not from there. I’m saing if I personally don’t feel safe walking in an area – I avoid walking in that area.

  • NOT NOW JOHN

    Mr. Donnelly is stereotyping the entire Unionist community based on a fraction of the Unionist community.

    —————————————————————————

    Joe, who are the leaders of the other part of the Unionist community which you refer to? Who do they vote for? Who speaks for them?

  • TwilightoftheProds

    Re Unionist commentators ‘Every comment above from one or other of their spokespeople is kneejerk whaboutery.’

    …I think that’s because a lot of us are busy shouting at the TV or rocking gently in a corner….

    I quite like parades. I don’t like it when they are parading ‘at’ nationalists..I don’t like it when they react without thinking eg Twaddell. Its more than about symbols and respect there..it is after all only clipping a corner of ardoyne along an arterial route. Its about territory in North Belfast..about maintaining or breaking community boundaries – respect (whether for nationalists or unionists) is only part of the story there.

    Its particularly dumb for the unionist family to go ‘all in’ for that parade…it shows that the DUP particularly is too much in hock to the OO membership. Not worried so much about thinking strategically, more worried about explaining themselves at the next lodge meeting.

    Some bad news for Chris ( a very readable post BTW). Don’t imagine that this will all go away in any future united Ireland (if/when). national/communal groupings never evaporate -no Prods surrender, no Micks lie down no matter the constitutional framework-doesn’t matter about demographics as long as there is a substantial body of people, with a usable history and network. Don’t believe me? Look at the other societies around the world like us. We’re not Finchley, but we’re not Swords either. The flegs etc are still up in Nicosia, Beirut and many towns of old Yugoslavia.

    So we have to imagine a way of dealing with these issues instead of imagining a ‘sure we’ll all get along’ NI or united Ireland.

  • Droch_Bhuachaill

    Would someone from the Orange tradition please explain to me why it is so important to them to march through Ardoyne on the return leg? Not a loaded question; just purely don’t understand it. Thanks.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Would someone from the Orange tradition please explain to me why it is so important to them to march through Ardoyne on the return leg? Not a loaded question; just purely don’t understand it. Thanks.

    Droch_Bhuachaill,

    Traditional route, members live within the area and it’s part of the protocol for lodges all over NI and ROI to parade their home area after the Twelfth.

  • Droch_Bhuachaill

    thanks Joe_Hoggs,

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Thanks for asking Droch_Bhuachaill.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Joe

    How strict is this protocol?

    i remember marching ‘home’ only on a few occasions. Mostly it was a case of the feeder parade, both legs of the main parade and then home.

    BTW, i think we’re lucky to have you on slugger so please don’t see my questions as a Lundy-esque assault, there are just so many questions. FYI, you hold your own very well and with great dignity.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Am Ghobsmacht,

    I’ve never paraded home, I like to enjoy the main Twelfth parade and to get to the home parade one has to leave early. Having said this many want to keep up the tradition it just doesn’t interest me.

  • Son of Strongbow

    About as predictable as the cack-handed unionist political response to the PC determination has been the spectacle of the Slugger nationalist bloggers and posters falling over themselves in their sectarian glee to put the boot into unionists.

    It would of course have been unthinkable for those of that ilk to have held back in exercising their size nines. However I fear they may need to arrange to visit a audiology specialist as the drum motif employed here is rather misplaced. The banging depicted is much more likely to be the echoing reports of gunfire courtesy of PIRA v2.0 based in Ardoyne sending a message to the PC.

    So the nationalist bile-ble has been raided for all the old clichés (and already harvesting results with a sectarian attack, complete with ‘IRA’ graffiti daubed on an Orange Hall in the Lisburn area).

    So far so situation normal.

    As for unionist political leadership? If this was an attempt to head-off a violent loyalist response to the ruling, as some in the DUP have avowed, they have positioned themselves as tiger jockeys.

    Unionism/loyalism exhibits none of the ‘army discipline’ observed within nationalism where Sinn Fein rule the roost, the SDLP is an irrelevance and allegedly disaffected nationalists hold some sway in a few places (Ardoyne being one such location). I don’t therefore hold out much hope of success for unionist ‘strategy’ in the febrile atmosphere of the 12th at Ardoyne.

    Robinson etc would have been better served sitting down the North Belfast OO and telling them that their Crumlin Road march is lost, that their ‘neighbours’ in Ardoyne despise them and will not tolerate their march.

    Robinson should also take the time to explain to them that their own behaviour at times has helped to foster that attitude within sections of nationalism.

    I very much doubt he, or Mike Nesbitt for that matter, will. No matter. More importantly he and others should realise that they are worthy of fierce condemnation from fellow unionists for officially making common cause with terrorist ‘political’ groups (and here I’m not talking about sitting in Stormont with Shinners).

    Finally to this thread’s leader piece; this latest kerfuffle just had to provide another opportunity to announce that unionist actions are, seemingly like every event from the Scots referendum to the Summer Solstice, a harbinger of a ‘united’ Ireland when the “shades of green finally blend equally with those of orange” (ye Gods! Don’t give up the day job); and this melodramatic flourish comes after indulging in a hatefest against that very same ‘orange’!

    Perhaps a little honesty would be better, like that on show annually by nationalist residents of Ardoyne? Why do nationalists of that mindset not truthfully follow the trajectory of their rhetoric and Shinner up the flagpole to cut away that orange bit that in reality so exercises them?

  • Doug

    Really god post, but for some reason I can’t ” Judge it ” as such.

  • MYtwocents

    my Judge it, is also not working, I was not going to use it at this time, as son of strongbow, lost me with his “terrorist ‘political’ groups” line.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    twilightofthe prods

    “So we have to imagine a way of dealing with these issues instead of imagining a ‘sure we’ll all get along’ NI or united Ireland.”

    A thousand times yes.
    Spot on.

  • carl marks

    One of the many amusing bits of the whole thing, is the way some people who regularly call the nationalist electorate supporters of the murder party because they made SF the largest nationalist party but only after SF give up violence, but manage to ignore the leaders of unionism forming Alliances with the political reps of loyalist terrorists (of course nothing new here, that’s what they have done through history) who are still active isn’t that called hypocrisy.
    The whole using the flag and RWB paint as markers in the same way a dog marks lamppost is would be amusing if not so sinister, but what is always funny is the painting of street furniture and kerbstones red, white and blue, do these people not know what dogs do on street furniture and kerbstones hardly what I would call respect for the good old flag and its colours but then again the law abiding Unionists party are only law abiding and unionist when it fits with their real agenda which is being anti-Catholic .
    Of course it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling when those old unionist selective memory kicks in, forgotten is the sectarian tunes, the rioting, the drunken sectarian coat trailers, the burning of tricolours, the UVF/UDA involvement, the bands named after sectarian killer (wanting to walk within 20 yds. of where he gunned down a man for no other reason than he was a catholic) and another band with the names of loyalist terrorists on their backs of course nobody mention the breaking of PC rulings on the 12th last year and the many since them at Twaddell , it not about any of that it’s about a few old Christian men returning home from church and it those hate filled intolerant taigs fault .
    In this fast changing world it nice to know there are still places where you can find the 17 century!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    My pretentious quote of the day:

    “A great civilisation is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within”

    (No Mc Slaggart, I’m not calling the OO a great civilisation…)

  • DC

    I think maybe Unionists have gone about this the wrong way, do it the republican way, talk a good talk be positive and stay in the talks then rely on rogue loyalist paramilitaries to put a few bullets into the PSNI?

    That should bring everything into order next year that, that should restore a bit of balance in the decision making process?

    Loyalist paramilitaries should be drawn away from pointless street protests and putting flags on lamp posts and on catholic churches and what not and pushed totally underground and have their efforts redirected at the PSNI only. Only the PSNI.

    Should do the trick going by what works here in the past, sure the PSNI never flies the Union flag at all, green light.

  • carl marks

    DC
    pushed totally underground and have their efforts redirected at the PSNI only. Only the PSNI.

    Good thinking, turning loyalist areas into Ardoyne circa mid-70s that will sort everything out and help out the working class prods a lot.
    Of course if you’re wrong in believing that nationalist violence is really the cause of the PC ruling then a lot of people will suffer in your community for nothing.
    So it would be better to think about this before you call for war!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    DC

    Before plan F is called, how about the OO just act with respect and decorum as they do in Rossnowlagh and many other parades?

    How would that backfire?

  • Comrade Stalin

    DC,

    Loyalists shot at the PSNI during the Whiterock protests, and IIRC someone fired at the police during flag protests in East Belfast, and there was the attempted murder by the UVF of a police officer outside of the Alliance HQ there.

  • DC

    Comrade, I know but all that that you mention hasn’t been co ordinated properly like republicans have done, loyalist paramilitaries are like cats in a bag, time to cement something more meaningful, more politically productive, time to copy republicans and dissidents?

    There now needs to be a similar force within loyalism similar to the dissidents who Unionism can rely on and use to their political advantage.

    Loyalists are too vocal and crude, they need to be given a lead to come in off the streets, take the flags down, stop working with the police, stop being seen out in street, go to ground and rely on a few sharp shooters whose actions on the day will give them something to stare at and be content with knowing that something is being done to support their cause, better than taking to the streets and jumping on land rovers. I reckon this sort of action is something that would placate the loyalist masses, make them content to sit on their hands, would chill them out, they could chill out knowing that a few good men were going to fire a few shots at the PSNI in order to get balance restored within Parades Commission towers.

    All the while Unionist politicians act all worried in the news about the seriousness of the situation but remain positive on the leadership front be seen to be positive and working to resolve this but all the while have a right good twisted chuckle behind the scenes that they don’t give a shit in reality and have spoken to paramilitaries who they can rely on to deliver force and threat on the day.

    After, Unionists can then go back to the government and say look we did our best you saw us talk positively and we tried to lead and did lead but look at the trouble that happened?

    Same sort of shit was rolled out by republicans and dissidents are carrying this out to good effect now.

    Bring the loyalist paramilitaries off the street and Unionist politicians should engage in deceit and trick the government and the public by being all positive about respecting the parades commission and decision making, scale back the protests on the day and bandsmen confronting police lines and work in the background with rogue loyalist paramilitaries as to who is going to fire at the PSNI in order to hit where it hurts?

    This way Unionism gets to save face and effect a much better outcome without all the negativity of on street violence and being held responsible for public disorder and all the rest of it?

  • jh25769

    Maybe a stupid question. But why do the loyalists have to play and sing sectarian songs near Catholic areas? I hear a lot about respect for whatever culture it’s supposed to be, but if a culture is about showing disrespect. Is that really culture?

  • tacapall

    “There now needs to be a similar force within loyalism similar to the dissidents who Unionism can rely on and use to their political advantage”

    A good start for people like yourself DC would be to actually read up a bit on your own history. When have Unionist politicians not enjoyed the type of relationship above and used loyalist paramilitaries for their own purposes . Have you forgotten David Ervines revelation that the DUP advised the UVF not to call a ceasefire when they were randomly murdering innocent Catholics in the run up to the ceasefires. Those same snipers your talking about, are they going to shoot their MI5/PSNI handlers ?

  • tacapall

    It looks more like throwing the dummy out of the pram DC. The only chance of the above happening is if the British establishment allow it to happen the whole wide world knows loyalist paramilitaries are controlled by British intelligence. Maybe the DUP could don their red berets again and maybe we’ll all get to see them bringing out into the open those still at large and non decommissioned third force weapons.

  • tacapall

    DC do you ever wonder how Winky went so quickly up the ranks, wasn’t he Brian Robinsons brother in law – Do you think they talked much ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    DC,

    The idea that SF are acting in league/coordination with the dissidents who have death threats out on them doesn’t stand up.

    And you’re still acting as if loyalists making threats to get their way over parades is something that has never been tried before.

    How about a theory based on reality ?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    DC

    Could you please explain why your murderous surgical strike strategy would be more effective than a strategy of ‘wising the bap’?

    If the OO and loyalist bands were to act with decorum, respect and sensitivity then a lot of the tension goes away.

    Now, if this lack of tension is deemed a bad thing by the great republican octopus then at least it has to react and do something to stoke up tensions or whatever it is that it needs to do.

    Some fleggers don’t advocate the route of respect and tolerance because they feel the shinners will find something else to yap about.

    I say “good!”.

    If that is the case then at least they’ll have to actively do something.

    At present they don’t have to do anything.
    Money for frickin’ jam!

    I suspect though that one of the main reasons for not adopting this strategy is that IT MIGHT RUDDY WELL WORK.
    If it does work and marching with respect and sensitivity is in fact the way to go then that’s an awful lot of egg on an awful lot of faces.
    “Oh. You mean we didn’t have to wreck the place after all? Right, sorry….”

    We’ve seen the results for marching with respect and dignity.

    We’ve seen the results of marching like a congress of drunken baboons.

    Stop. Compare. Think.

    Jeeez.

  • carl marks

    DC

    “they could chill out knowing that a few good men were going to fire a few shots at the PSNI ”

    With the ability to from complex and original ideas like this I can see a future Brigadier in the making!
    It will be difficult to get started as we all know that there is no history of violence inside unionism them being the innocent victims and all, also please remember this is all about some old men coming back from church and care will have to be exercised, old men might have Heart attacks if they see a police man being murdered.
    I emailed your man Dara on Mock the Week and telling him that he should have Mtc, Tugger, and your good self on the show you all have a big future in stand-up!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Do you think it’s time for Louis Theroux to come to Norn Iron (if he hasn’t come already?

    I think we’re now mad enough.

  • carl marks

    AG,
    We are mad enough but is Louis!

  • fordprefect

    I’ve watched many of Louis Theroux’s shows and some of them were quite bizarre, you know like “The Most Hated Family In America” etc. Though I reckon if he came to this place and saw all the malarkey and carry on that we have to put up with, he’d stop filming and run away screaming: “These people are all lunatics and there’s nothing that can be done for them”!

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Ford

    “Louis’s Loyal Weekends: feat. Willie Frazer, Jamie Bryson, George Chittick and Edwin Poots”

    “I’m heading back to Westboro Baptist church for some sense!”

  • Joe_Hoggs

    And yet Chris Donnelly remains silent when it comes to IRA terrorist awards to primary school kids.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Joe Hoggs
    “And yet Chris Donnelly remains silent when it comes to IRA terrorist awards to primary school kids.”

    Well, quite Joe.

    Surely then, this would be a good reason to address the marching and flags issues?

    I mean, if marching is sorted and there is little controversy
    regarding the bonfires and wot not, well, the newspaper pages will be a little bit emptier and would need something else to focus on.

    That IRA mural went up in West Belfast, but, it gets to slink past in the shadow of marching season.

    Last year SF got a punch on the nose from Jim Allister regarding the SpAd bill.

    It was soon over shadowed by marching season.

    Do you see the pattern here?

    If you want people to make a song and dance about other topics (from themuns) then turn your own music down.