Loyalist parades have went DOWN since 2005!!

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In direct contradiction to recent claims made, Loyalist/ Unionists parades have NOT doubled since 2005. In actual fact, as a proportion of all parades in Northern Ireland, Loyalist/ Unionist parades have actually went DOWN since 2005….  

Like most band members, when I heard there was going to be some news coverage of the band scene in Northern Ireland on television last night, immediately I was bracing myself for the worst. I was assured by some that no, this was going to be a positive story; but Bands aren’t used to receiving much positive publicity and I reserved my judgement. Yesterday morning Good Morning Ulster ran with a scaled back version, and the full commentary went on Newsline last night. So what were the taglines?

Well first we had some reasonable interviews with bandsmen from the Upper Falls Protestant Boys Flute Band from Suffolk West Belfast. Situated in a small enclave, the Upper Falls band are like the vast majority of bands, an integral part of their local community structure. The guys expressed their views sincerely and honestly, accurately reflecting many band member views especially those bands in urban environments. Essentially it boils down to people doing something they love and that it’s a fundamental part of their lives. In turn they resent what they feel are politically motivated misrepresentations about their Raison d’être.

That part was essentially a useful mask for the main story however. The rest? Well there were four parts. Firstly there are more bands than ever, secondly there are twice as many parades as ten years ago; and thirdly, bands have benefited from almost one million pounds of funding. Finally- and the whole reason for the piece- to tell us all that because there were more bands, parades and funding; the belief of Unionism that elements of its culture are under attack is utter poppycock.

The number of bands referenced was 660, whom Queens University’s Dr Paul Nolan says are ‘registered’.  Where they are registered beats me because there is no universal body covering or registering all bands, governmental or internal to the movement. Despite that he’s about right, and we didn’t need told. There are twice as many bands in Northern Ireland as there are GAA clubs; it is the Province’s largest musical movement (one of the largest over the entirety of Ireland and the UK in fact); and it’s still growing. There have been two new bands formed in the last few months alone. Young men and women are joining bands, and band organised processions this year have been attracting larger crowds than in many years.

The number of parades quoted is a different matter. As far as I can see from all available evidence the basic figures quoted were total and unadulterated nonsense, and the veracity of that claim can be laid out very quickly. According to Dr Nolan in 2005 there were 2,120 (or did the reporter mean that was the amount of Unionist parades but didn’t say that? No. They wouldn’t have deliberately tried to mislead. Of course not…). No there weren’t. The Parades Commission says there were 3,424 (from 1st January to 31st December- all my referenced stats are based on that time-span both in 2005 and 2013). According to Dr Nolan in 2013 there were 4,637. Well the Commission actually has more, namely 4,719! 3,424 to 4,719 isn’t doubled, it’s an increase of 38%.

Ok, that’s still significant. Or is it? Again using the Parades Commission’s own information gathering system, parades that are specifically designated as Unionist in 2005 were 2,193 (very close to the claim in the reporting that ‘In 2005 there were 2,120 marches’ in total. But no, they wouldn’t mislead deliberately. Of course not…). Under the exact same reference in 2013 there were 2,719. So far from doubling in ten years there has been an approximate increase of 526, less than 25%. Considering we had a year of significant one-off centenary commemorations; as well as flag protests, and daily parades relating to Twadell and other disputes in Stoneyford not in existence in 2005 resulting in more applications, in truth the increase is close to insignificant. The headline from the 2005/ 2013 comparison isn’t the increase in ‘Loyal’ parades, it’s that the proportion of ‘Loyal’ parades have dropped from 64% to 57% of all parades in Northern Ireland!

Bands have also been given almost one million pounds as well we are told. Again what’s omitted from that statement is more important than the figure. I don’t think I even have to dissect this one in depth, but a few facts: – 1/ the ‘bands’ funding is open to ALL marching bands from any community. That money hasn’t all went to bands primarily of Unionist identity. 2/ In terms of the scale of the sector and the timescale over which the grants were issued, the amount is paltry. 3/ the grant in question has been cut on an annual basis. 4/ In comparison to primarily Nationalist sporting and cultural organisations such as the GAA, the amount is totally and utterly insignificant.

Where does that all leave the conclusion that Loyalist and Unionist Culture ISN’T under threat?

The whole piece is partial reportage of facts accompanied by innuendo in order to make a politically motivated point. The number of parades hasn’t really changed and the ‘grants’ that have been awarded are close to insignificant (if anything it makes it clear by virtue of the movements scale that bands should have vastly more designated funding opened).

Band membership has though increased. It’s clear as day why. People are joining bands and forming bands BECAUSE they feel their culture is under threat. Whether it is or not is for another post, but one thing’s for sure, propaganda and manipulation of facts like the report last night won’t alleviate the belief that it is. The exact polar opposite- it has enforced it.

  • Mc Slaggart

    ” there are twice as many parades as ten years ago”

    Its not the number of parades that is the main issue. The main issue is when and where you have them.

    Why do you need to march in town centers?

    Most nationalist bands do the bulk of their marching around a field.

  • Quincey Dougan

    Mc Slaggart. Fair enough. But that isn’t what the story was about or reporting. This piece is about the story. A story blatantly misrepresenting facts.

  • Dec

    Quincey

    It’s probably worth pointing out that in a 7 month period last year, policing parades cost the taxpayer £26 million pounds. You may want to factor that amount into your fiscal calculations.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Quincey

    “A story blatantly misrepresenting facts.”

    I do not understand why you do not think the following should be included:

    “Considering we had a year of significant one-off centenary commemorations; as well as flag protests, and daily parades relating to Twadell and other disputes in Stoneyford not in existence in 2005 resulting in more applications”

  • Mc Slaggart

    NOT

  • Quincey Dougan

    Mc Slaggart, those facts are relevant because the story is asserting that Loyalist cultural parading has increased two fold. Those events are of a very specific nature and come from circumstance beyond traditional parading habits and patterns and are therefore not likely to become mainstays of the tradition.

  • gendjinn

    Quincey,

    Looks like you’ve found some bugs in the Parades Commission search engine. For the 1/1/05 to 31/12/05 period only the following Purposes returned values & they don’t add up to the total.

    | Type | Number |
    | All/None | 3424 |
    | Annual Parade | 442 |
    | Band | 97 |
    | Other | 1428 |
    | Other – Annual | 177 |
    | Charity | 46 |

    Worth trying to figure out where the reporters got their data and the problems with the PC search results before jumping to malign intent.

  • Banjaxed

    “Loyalist parades have went DOWN since 2005!!”

    Lol. It’s like a headline from LAD; you couldn’t make it up!

  • http://heartsofoakandsteel.wordpress.com Mark McGregor

    Quincy, it seems a little disingenuous to claim any reduction in loyalist/unionist parades. The report makes clear a trend of additional parades from these communities but from non traditional organisers. 24% of current parades. It also explains the paper % drop to 58% you highlight. Simple maths, if Unionists organise many additional parades via non traditional organisations the percentage from the usual organisers will fall but when the fellow travellers are grouped the increase is real in numerical and percentage terms. Maybe you should try your analysis again without excluding the massive increase in parades from your community coming from a new group of applicants?

  • Sp12

    ‘Loyalist parades have went DOWN!!!!!!’

    Did they get denied permission for the return leg?

  • BarneyT

    Surely the problem is this. Folks are drawn towards band participation in response to their culture being eroded. Why don’t folks bolster their culture, rather than pursue marching, bands and all the regalia, unless of course the PUL culture is predominantly defined and expressed through these demonstrations.

    If this is not stopped the PUL community will increasingly become aligned solely with these events and the problems they can cause.

    If the loyalist and presumably British culture in NI is now defined by these demonstrations, there is no cultural future for the PUL community. The culture will be rendered seasonal and be regarded as a provocative and hate filled one. They will continue to alienate themselves from the rest of us in this region and drift further from the parent culture on the “mainland”.

    So, whilst you are right to contest the figures, as they do suggest that there is a disconnect and a lot of whining in the PUL ranks, surely the PUL community can draw on so much more for cultural identification.

  • JR

    “Loyalist parades have went down since 2005″ No they didn’t there were more loyalist parades in 2013 than in 2005 fact.

    in 2005 the Orange order held 496 parades in 2013 it was 1390. In the same time “loyalist band parades” increased from 442 to 592 you are talking BS Quincey, pure and simple. You have started with a narrative and are trying unsuccessfully to make the numbers fit.

  • http://alaninbelfast.blogspot.com Alan in Belfast

    The statistics most people are talking about from the Peace Monitoring Report attached below (blog post):

    Parading statistics from NI Peace Monitoring Report

  • Morpheus

    Oh where to begin, where to begin…

    1. I know exactly where he got 660 from – it is taken from the laughable tax-payer funded report commissioned by Nelson McCausland’s Department of Social Development called “The Socio-economic Impact of the Traditional Protestant Parading Sector in Northern Ireland” Remember the one from 2013 which said that the NI economy benefits to the tune of 10 million billion pound per year because of parades? :)

    Here’s a copy of the tax-payer funded report into the The Social-economic impact of the GAA in Northern ireland

    2. There are twice as many bands as GAA clubs. Let me see now, the local GAA club near me has U10 Boys, U10 Girls, U12 Boys, U12 Girls, U14 boys, u14 Girls, U16 boys, U16 girls, Minors, Minor ladies, Reserves, Ladies Reserves, Seniors and Senior ladies. By the math used in the report above that’s 10 million billion players per club and doesn’t even count the managers, coaches etc :) If your point is to get into a dick-swinging competition I am not sure you will like the outcome

    3. In 2005 there were 97 Apprentice boys applications to the Parades Commission – obviously not including those that were withdrawn
    496 Orange,
    177 Black,
    442 Loyalist band.
    A total of 1212.

    In 2013 there were:
    202 Apprentice Boys
    1390 Orange
    450 Black
    592 Loyalist Band and
    27 Flag protests
    A total of 2661.

    So yeah, more than doubled. What’s that you were saying about the whole piece being “partial reportage of facts accompanied by innuendo in order to make a politically motivated point”?

    That’s all tongue in cheek of course, I think the bands do a great voluntary giving thousands of people something to do and they put on a great show. They are the ones who bring the culture, pageantry, spectacle and talent to the 12th

  • Sp12

    “Band membership has though increased. It’s clear as day why. People are joining bands and forming bands BECAUSE they feel their culture is under threat. Whether it is or not is for another post, but one thing’s for sure, propaganda and manipulation of facts like the report last night won’t alleviate the belief that it is. The exact polar opposite- it has enforced it.”

    So pointing out that parades have doubled has reinforced the paranoid belief amoung bands that ‘their culture is under threat’ and therefore will lead to increased numbers of new bands/bandsmen (and therefore new parades)

    If we could produce a study for next year to say they have halved would that lead to a further decrease in parades or would somebody rally the troops with the ‘we will not be the generation to fail Ulster!!!’ war cry that in turn will lead to an increase in parades.

    Help us out here Quincey.

  • Reader

    Banjaxed: Lol. It’s like a headline from LAD; you couldn’t make it up!
    “have went” is a cross-community grammatical construct that I associate with West Belfast as a whole rather than (say) just the Shankill Huns. But it was really classy of you to fleg it up.

  • Banjaxed

    Reader
    You can associate all you want but, in my opinion, a headline sets the tone of an article and, if its incorrect grammar hits you in the face, it doesn’t bode well for the content of the piece.

    This has been amply demonstrated by most contributors above who have torn Quincey’s allegations to shreds by simply quoting the facts of the situation and not, as he did, in what amounted to a whinging justification of MOPE-ery..

  • MYtwocents

    The BBC ireland propaganda piece’s central theme was that despite claims by them Huns, that their culture is being eroded we have figures that show that its not.

    I would contend that is what is being claimed, is that, there is constant attempts to erode the culture.

    Not the same thing.

    And if one thinks about it, it reeks of, malign intent.

  • MYtwocents

    Also, off topic (Biased Media reporting*), funny how folk who have spent the last month** or so, spouting how the Loyal Orders, and their parades are soon to be a thing of the past, and how backing up the “twice as many” claim.

    * side note, when one puts the word “biased” into yahoo, the first thing offered up is “biased BBC”,

    ** since Mytwocents started the slugger thing.

  • BarneyT

    Reader…”Went” is heavily used in Scotland in place of “Gone”. I have listened to Pat Nevin and other commentators use this frequently. i.e. “Has has went down the line and put a lovely cross in”.

    It just sounds odd, but when you think it replaces “gone” it makes some sense. Its definitely an Ulster Scots influence.

    I have noticed many use “ran” instead of “run”. This however extends south of the border…but perhaps we’re looking at English V Celtic use of English.

    There is a heavy use of the term “Gotten” in the ROI, something which I have always associated with the Americans..but again, we need to look at the origins.

    I do side-track, but I did find this use of England interesting. Its not wrong, just different use of a word, but the tense is correct if I am no mistaken.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    So have Loyalist band parades went up then since 2005 or not?

    In relation to Orange lodges there are about 800 in NI and each one has a church parade and sometimes an associated district parade so there are almost 800 Orange parades here before counting the Twelfth and other events.

  • Jagdip

    3% of all parades are nationalist (from Alan’s Peace Monitoring Report).

    Nationalists must feel very comfortable in their cultural skins.

    Off topic, I know its part of the Joint Protocol on flags developed between the PSNI and others, but isn’t it lamentable that the PSNI needs to have discussions with residents and community groups before removing a KKK flag.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Jagdip,

    I would suggest parading is not part of the Nationalist culture which tends to be more varied focusing on Fleadhs, Gaelic sports and other such festivals.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    ‘Loyalist parades have went (sic) DOWN since 2005!!’

    ‘People are joining bands and forming bands BECAUSE they feel their culture is under threat.’

    If you’re interested in cultural expression you’re interested in, I’d suggest you start in the area of literacy.

    Quincey – you describe your beloved subculture as a ‘musical movement.’

    Why do you think it is that there has been virtually no, y’know, music, that has come out of it?

    Why does the number of artists to have emerged from your ranks currently stand at zero?

    (Not sure if James Galway was a Kick The Poper in his day, was he?)

  • Billy Pilgrim

    ‘If you’re interested in cultural expression you’re interested in, I’d suggest you start in the area of literacy.’ (sic)

    That’ll teach me to be snooty…

    (Skulks away.)

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “I would suggest parading is not part of the Nationalist culture… focusing on Fleadhs, Gaelic sports and other such festivals”

    You do know that bands turn up at those events and play music?

    FYI

    “In a proposal some are calling one of the most important peace gestures in Irish history, Tyrone and Armagh GAA boards are considering combining their potential July 12th Round 2 Qualifier clash with the Twelfth celebrations on the field of play.

    The scenario will only take place if Monaghan defeat Armagh in their replayed Ulster semi-final this weekend, with bookmakers reckoning this scenario will be the likely outcome.

    Both county board met yesterday to thrash out an agreement on the proposal with the following details confirmed as definite:

    Instead of St Michael’s Enniskillen, the players will march behind a lone Lambeg drummer, playing any tune he likes
    Both sets of players will march wearing a sash in their county colours

    The National Anthem will be replaced by The Sash My Father Wore

    A bonfire will be lit in the corner of the field at half time with no flags to be burnt, just rubbish and spare tyres donated by spectators

    Free beer cans for all in attendance

    Tyrone spokesman, Kenny Nelis, explained the gesture:

    “We in the GAA pride ourselves with forward thinking and this is just a natural extension of that. There are other proposals we are considering so don’t take that list as a definite. There’s talk of marching back to the changing rooms after the game is over, if the players are fit for it. This will be a special day for everyone.”

    A stumbling block has surfaced though as Armagh have demanded they walk their tradition route on the outside, closest to the crowd. However, Tyrone are refusing to also give up their right to the outside lane and there are concerns there’ll be a stand-off. PSNI officials have reminded both county boards that they’ll employ water cannons if an impasse is reached on this issue.”

    http://tyronetribulations.com/category/gaa/

  • SK

    From today’s telegraph…

    “Chairman of the Sandy Row bonfire committee Graham Nelson said last year they burned around 60 tricolours on it as well as an effigy of the Pope, adding they planned to do the same again this year.”

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/we-burnt-60-tricolours-last-eleventh-night-and-well-do-the-same-this-year-30399910.html

    That’s 60 tricolours on a single bonfire. And an effigy of the Pope thrown in for good measure. This is the night before that same community gets (track)suited and booted in order to goose-step past their Catholic neighbours in a wholly benign and not-at-all-supremacist display of ‘kulchur’.

    These charming people constantly complain that nobody understands them. I think their real problem is that the rest of us understand them perfectly.

  • GCFB Ned

    If you take in to account feeder parades that all have to be registered with the Parades Commission now & probably weren’t in 2005. Plus the ‘protest’ parades, you’ll see there is no real change of any significant degree, there’s only so many days in a year & where are all these parades happening & when?

    Fact is that they’re not.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    SK

    Indeed.

    The marching band subculture is a ‘musical movement’ full of people who apparently have no interest in music.

    The marching bands don’t practice. They train. They don’t perform. They drill. They’re not about exploring their creative musical potential. They’re about preparing for battle. They are a musical organisation as much as the Irish Volunteers, when they drilled with hurls rather than rifles, were a sporting organisation.

    Quincey

    ‘Essentially it boils down to people doing something they love…’

    Yes, but what is is that they love?

    ‘In turn they resent what they feel are politically motivated misrepresentations about their Raison d’être.’

    What is their raison d’être?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Billy,

    Field Marshall Montgomery Pipe band.

  • between the bridges

    what I posted on that ‘other’ thread… a lot of spin in that doubling of parades, for a start a lot of feeder parades which would have been on the main 11/1 now require there own form.
    Of the top of my head…The vast majority of parades are church (prob 1.5-1.8K) parades usually 1/2 lodge and one band on a Sunday morn or eve, another 547 take place on the 12th (feeders to and from) other big days such as Easter Monday & 12th August (ABOD), 13th & last sat (RBP)also add a few hundred feeders on the same day. There are certainly more bands and more band parades between 17th march and mid Oct. So the bulk of parades are on the same few days and the rest spread out across 6 months from 17th march to 1st Oct and they are spread across NI.

    Re musical ability it will vary (there are bands that practice twice a week and those who practice twice a year) from world champions as mentioned by Joe to bands whose only outings are a church parade and the 12th…

  • MYtwocents

    I hate all the Grammar correction on slugger, probably because I am thick, but Billy I feel compelled to correct your,

    “as much as the Irish Volunteers, when they drilled with hurls rather than rifles, were a sporting organisation.”
    when of course it should read as.

    “as much as the Irish Volunteers, when they drill with hurls rather than rifles, are a sporting organisation.”.

    So glad you have come out of denial, and are admitting what the GAAs true raison d’être is.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Spelling and grammar corrections are a nod to LAD and the fact that the PUL community are all guilty of this sin.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    ..We in the GAA pride ourselves with forward thinking..

    Which apparently includes things like burning spare tyres in the corner of a football field.

  • Banjaxed

    Point of information, please.
    In view of falling church attendances (on all sides!), as evidence would suggest, why have the numbers of loyal order church parades increased?

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Because a certain gentleman(?) makes work for idle hands?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Banjaxed,

    Have they increased?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mister_Joe

    “Which apparently includes things like burning spare tyres in the corner of a football field.”

    JOKE

    The web site is one that tells tall tails…such as:

    “New rules introduced by the EU via Stormont will see the village of Fivemiletown in Tyrone renamed Eightkilometretown from next Monday.

    Council workers were today hard at work changing signage in and around the town to ensure that the Ulster councils do not fall foul of a new
    EU directive designed to ensure consistency and transparency across European members, which includes the standardisation from imperial measures to metric.

    Fivemiletown is not the only location in Tyrone affected. Sixmilecross village today similarly becomes Ninekilometrecross, whilst one of the county’s best-known visitor attractions, the Beaghmore Stone Circles, a site of significant archaeological interest, becomes the Beaghmore Kilo Circles. Retail outlets are also affected, with Poundland in Dungannon’s Scotch Street changing to Gramland from next week.

    Other plans which may be introduced over the next twelve months include driving on the right hand side of the road, horsemeat being sold throughout the county, again, and compulsory three-hour siestas on any day the sun comes out.”

    http://tyronetribulations.com/2014/05/

  • Tugger

    Billy Pilgrim – 2 July 2014 at 10:14 am
    Quincey – you describe your beloved subculture as a ‘musical movement.’
    Why do you think it is that there has been virtually no, y’know, music, that has come out of it?
    Why does the number of artists to have emerged from your ranks currently stand at zero?

    I’m in a Loyalist marching band which contains musicians trained at the Belfast School of Music, ex-Ulster Orchestra members and numerous former British Army band members – including a couple who have performed for The Queen herself. Every band member can read music and a number have composed their own military-style marches in the past. The average experience among the 50 or so band members is 20+ years – and that includes two who have been marching for over 50 years and are still going strong today.

    In future, when you know absolutely nothing about topic, perhaps you should refrain from commenting and embarrassing yourself.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Tugger,

    As someone in the Orange would you say the lack of discipline is more an issue for us than bands?

  • babyface finlayson

    Banjaxed

    “This has been amply demonstrated by most contributors above who have torn Quincey’s allegations to shreds by simply quoting the facts of the situation and not, as he did, in what amounted to a whinging justification of MOPE-ery..”
    There is something not quite right, grammatically, about the latter part of that sentence.
    Ha ha silly you.

  • Dec

    Tugger

    Sloop John B or Famine Song?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    What is Sloop John B?

  • MYtwocents

    Joe, its a beach boys song, its tune was rejigged for flute and drum, and is played by non irish nat bands, someone in Scotland I believe, has penned lyrics (the famine song) that many (including me) find offensive*, so the mopes on here and elsewhere now claim that any playing of the tune is a ref to the lyric.

    * and stupid.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    MyTwoCents,

    This is all very new to me – I wasn’t even aware of the song but a check on Wikipedia claims it is played at most Loyalist marches – sometimes we don’t help ourselves.

  • MYtwocents

    “sometimes we don’t help ourselves.” indeed Joe, however in this case as in others the lyrics where penned after the tune became a regular part of the band repertoire, and if bands where to drop tunes every time some wag write’s lyrics that some people find offensive, the bands would have no tunes to play, the same mopes have a problem with “what a friend we have in Jesus” for the same reason.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    MyTwoCents,

    No win situation, are you part of the bad community?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    band* community although many will say I was right first time. :)

  • MYtwocents

    Not a member of a band, nearly was once a long time ago, but I was too lazy, no, I just enjoy the parades.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Could we tempt you into the Orange? New members are always welcome and indeed needed.

  • MYtwocents

    no, for reasons that would take too long to explain.
    Hoping to travel to Irvinstown this 12th, hope there are plenty of pipe bands, my little girl loves them.

  • Turgon

    Billy Pilgrim wrote:
    “The marching bands don’t practice. They train. They don’t perform. They drill. They’re not about exploring their creative musical potential.”

    That is simply an untruth and one which is so widely known to be untrue as to make it a blatant and deliberate lie.

    Many band spend large amounts of time practicing. They tend to be much better at music than marching. I and my in laws have been involved in several bands. Not one has ever practiced marching (sometimes it shows) but some have obsessionally practiced music (again it shows). They also perform frequently. Marching bands in Fermanagh provide the music at the county show (whilst seated in a bandstand typed area). They have also provided music at open days of gardens for charity events and the like again in a very seated fashion. They are akin to colliery bands.

    Band competitions involve relatively little focus on marching and a great deal on music.

  • Tugger

    Corporal Maurice Brown from the Army School of Music in Catterick (who himself started out in music with the UVF Regimental flute band in east Belfast) said recently that the top four flute players in the entire British Army and twenty of the twenty-four drummers in the Irish Guards corps of drums started out in Loyalist marching bands in Northern Ireland.

  • BarneyT

    ok, what about my idea to replace the mass of polluting bonfires? Posted on a previous thread.

    Basic idea. Light selected fires to reenact the use of beacons at the time..presumably to communicate goings on and other developments.

    Focus on the historic event. Does anyone think this is starter for 10? It would clearly cross many counties on the island…and perhaps be less intimidatory and perhaps more welcome?

    Maybe this will be a non starter as I have visions of many 10s of beacons from some part of Ulster to Drogheda…or presumably the reverse?. Just a thought…focusing on the historic event and not the defacing\destruction of emlems and synbols?.

  • Roy Walsh

    McSlaggart, sorry for being wholly off point but, ref. your post about the forthcoming Ulster final. In 2001 Croke Pk received complaints from disgruntled Kerry fans, upset at the marching up O Connell St by two dark suited, bowler hatted and sashed Armagh supporters, I still have the picture of the two in the 2002 semi final programme smiling and marching in the center of the Capital, who said Willie Frazer failed to walk all the way down the street?
    I don’t remember this Parade being notified.

  • http://www.banuanlae.org/ Ulick

    Armagh didn’t play Kerry in 2001 Roy, we were knocked out by Galway in the qualifiers. There was the famous/infamous 2 match series in the 2000 semi though when the Kerrymen had to behead Cathal O’Rourke to seal their progress through the replay.

  • Roy Walsh

    Cheers Ullock, must have been the, then new, quarters.

  • Roy Walsh

    Or, as it now seems, the 2000 semi.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    MyTwoCents

    Thanks for the grammatical lesson, but I think you’re confused. You seem to be outraged by my use of the past tense but I can see no error in what I wrote. I think my use of the past tense was appropriate, given that I was discussing an organisation that has not existed since 1918.

    I have no idea what your comment about the GAA has to do with anything. I think you may be conflating unconnected things.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Tugger

    ‘I’m in a Loyalist marching band which contains musicians trained at the Belfast School of Music…’

    What heady heights their studies have brought them to.

    ‘…ex-Ulster Orchestra members…’

    What a sad and ignominious denouement to their careers.

    ‘…and numerous former British Army band members…’

    I have no doubt.

    ‘– including a couple who have performed for The Queen herself.’

    She has my sympathy.

    Any evidence of anyone who has gone on from Kick The Popery to better things? Or just sad cases of people who have fallen from better things into Kick The Popery?

    ‘…a number have composed their own military-style marches in the past.’

    This kinda proves my point. Even the talented, creatively curious people within this subculture have their creativity channeled towards the militaristic. God only knows what marvels these people might be capable of, if they were freed from the military-style culture.

    It’s instructive that, in arguing for the creative excellence of your subculture, you cite as an authority a soldier. As if military men are musical authorities. Military music is anti-music. Nothing could be more anti-creative. But the fact that you regard this person as an authority hardly disproves my argument about the militaristic nature of your subculture.

    I don’t doubt that there are many young bandsmen who spend long hours with their instruments, and become quite skilled. But you have to wonder why frankly even the good ones aren’t much use. I mean, even the prize-winning ones aren’t exactly drawing the admiring attention of the conservatoires of the world, are they?

    ‘The average experience among the 50 or so band members is 20+ years…’

    Yes, but what has been the creative achievement, for all these years? Where are the albums? Where are the concerts? Where are the fans? Where is the innovation? Where is the cross-fertilisation with other genres? Fundamentally: where is the CONTRIBUTION?

    For all the years practice and all the dedication, why aren’t they any good? (And comparing them with other military and quasi-military musical performers is hardly a meaningful rebuttal.) It can’t be that there’s universal absence of talent.

    I suspect that you and I simply aren’t on the same page. I’m talking about music, about creativity, about cultural contribution.

    I suspect that you and your band have other priorities.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Roy Walshh

    ‘In 2001 Croke Pk received complaints from disgruntled Kerry fans, upset at the marching up O Connell St by two dark suited, bowler hatted and sashed Armagh supporters.’

    I remember seeing the gentlemen in question. They caused much hilarity. But you must be joking with your assertion that some Kerry fans complained to Croke Park? I just find that quite unbelievable.

    And we lost after a replay in the 2000 semi, but had our revenge in 2002. I don’t recall the foul on Cathal O’Rourke, to be honest, but I do remember Bumpy O’Hagan dropping a ball into Declan O’Keeffe’s hands in the dying seconds of the drawn game, which allowed the soft free that Mossy Fitz converted for the draw. And I remember being five points up, halfway through the second half of the replay, and our shrinking into ourselves, a self-fulfilling invitation of the Kerry backlash. We had only ourselves to blame in 2000. But I wonder whether, without the hurt of that defeat, we’d have gotten over the line two years later?

  • Tugger

    Billy Pilgrim,

    Your total and utter ignorance of the marching band scene does not, in itself, make it bad. Most people shy away from a discussion of which they know little but your nonsensical, venom-filled contribution to this topic does nothing but expose you as an anti-protestant bigot.

    You asked where the musical expertise was in the scene and evidence was provided for your enlightenment. Alas, that does not seem enough to clear that poisonous green mist clouding your judgement.

    Carry on.

  • sitarman

    Billy Pilgrim,
    So are people who play in orchestras, highland pipe bands, or the majority of traditional folk session players not musicians either because they don’t compose their own pieces?

    I think as Tugger explained there are many levels of ability within the military style band genre. You question of ‘How many have gone on to better things?’ is perhaps as offensive as asking ‘How many people from the GAA have gone on to make it in proper sports?’

  • MYtwocents

    Many GAA “people” have gone on to Proper sports, but many return to the fold, they miss the drilling, they miss the bigotry, and they miss going out with their gaa buds, burning Orange halls, basically they miss getting together with their irish nat kin (remember non irish nats are not allowed to be members) and scheming.

  • boondock

    Completely amazed at the comments earlier about the famine song.

    ‘if bands where to drop tunes every time some wag write’s lyrics that some people find offensive, the bands would have no tunes to play’

    Fair enough if the sectarian version of a song has been penned by some sad loner and put on the internet and hardly anyone has heard it but the famine song is widespread throughout Scotland and Northern Ireland and strongly associated with a section of Rangers fans in fact at the moment it is probably the most well known anti-irish song.

    To claim the bands are playing the non-sectarian version is extremely naive but if that is genuinely the case then you think they would have the wit to stop playing it!!

    Someone else who cant quite grasp the difference (not that we would expect anything else from him)

    https://www.facebook.com/BELFASTLAD/photos/a.167845846753708.1073741828.167750270096599/262498480621777/?type=1&theater

  • Jagdip

    I see there has been an (unprecedented?) joint statement from the DUP, UUP, TUV, PUP and West Belfast UPRG about this Saturday’s “outward” parade in Ardoyne, the full statement reads:

    “It is the same people walking up the Crumlin Road in the evening as the Commission has allowed down in the morning so logic dictates they should be allowed to return home. The morning parade along the Crumlin Road has not been the core issue so the key question remains.Will the Parades Commission cave in to the publicly issued republican threats against the homeward leg on this arterial route or not? We believe they must be unequivocal in their rejection of these threats and allow the homeward leg of the parade”.

    No word yet from the local residents but they might do worse than issue the following:

    “It is the same people walking up the Crumlin Road in the evening as the Commission has allowed down in the morning so logic dictates they should be disallowed to set out at all.

    The morning parade along the Crumlin Road should be the core issue

    Will the Parades Commission cave in to the publicly issued unionist insults against the homeward leg on this arterial route or not?

    “We believe they must be unequivocal in their rejection of these insults and disallow the outward (and homeward) leg of the parade”.

  • MYtwocents

    Jag, and that will help?.
    Here’s the thing, the PCs policy of pandering to the big stick* has led us to this, next weeks decision will again pander to the big stick, it remains to be seen if the joint pro parade lobby have convinced the PC (and the SOS) that the bigger stick is, at this time, being waved by the pro parade people. its a mad way of conducting affairs.

    * this point is in part proven by the PC allowing some “contentious” parades, like the morning ardoyne, or the Whiterock, yet banning others, and in part proven by their ex member stating the threat of public disorder has influenced their decisions.

  • Reader

    sitarman: or the majority of traditional folk session players not musicians either because they don’t compose their own pieces?
    Well, obviously most of them don’t but there’s this one guy Trad Arr who has done a hell of a lot of material which does seem rather familiar. I think he’s even done some stuff with Sir James Galway.

  • Doug

    MYtwocents (profile) says: 3 July 2014 at 7:08 am Many GAA “people” have gone on to Proper sports, but many return to the fold, they miss the drilling, they miss the bigotry, and they miss going out with their gaa buds, burning Orange halls, basically they miss getting together with their irish nat kin (remember non irish nats are not allowed to be members) and scheming.

    ————————————————-

    Still not true since the last time you said it.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Roy Walsh

    “In 2001 Croke Pk received complaints from disgruntled Kerry fans, upset at the marching up O Connell St by two dark suited, bowler hatted and sashed Armagh supporters, I still have the picture of the two in the 2002 semi final programme smiling and marching in the center of the Capital, who said Willie Frazer failed to walk all the way down the street?”

    That Wille boy goes to every match. The fecker never takes the bloody hat off. You try and sit behind him at a match.

  • Roy Walsh

    Billy, I’m afraid I’m not joking, complaints (more than one) were received, one of them is a friend, as I said, I saw the picture in the 2002 semi-final programme, having, in 2000, 2001 spent all summer in Espana.
    Fortunately in 2002, the Orangemen won in Dublin,
    McSlaggart, I’m sure as with the rest of the Armagh men, Willie was very proud.

  • redstar2011

    I note the unionists/loyalists( is there a difference) including UVF/UDA representatives ( no probs standing shoulder to shoulder with terrorist types when it suits) have walked out of the ” intensive discussions” and are now predicting all kinds of bad things ahead!!!

  • Roy Walsh

    That’s part of the ‘our culture is threatened’ thing, it’s not to long ago Willie McCrea was on a stage with Billy Wright when they felt this too.
    The latest round of ‘protests’ are simply designed to threaten the parades Commission into submitting to the coat trailing culture.

  • Jagdip

    I tend to agree with the LUPO contributors on here about the accuracy of these new statistics.

    SF has just released a press statement which includes the following

    “There are more loyalist and orange parades taking place each year than ever before. In 2005 there were 2120 marches in the north. By last year that had more than doubled to 4,637. Two thirds, or over 3,000 of these are loyalist parades. In the same period the number of orange bands has also doubled.

    There are less than 200 parades that are broadly nationalist and non [sic[ are contentious.

    Claims that objections by a handful of nationalist areas to orange parades going through their communities is an attack on the Orange are clearly a nonsense.”
    https://www.paradescommission.org/getmedia/0f6a1cea-79a8-4023-bdae-fef6393f0657/NorthernIrelandParadesCommission.aspx

    As far as I can tell from the PC statistics which monitor parades on a 12-month Apr-Mar basis, total parades have increased from 3292 in 2005/6 to 4449 in 2012/13, a 35% increase.

    LUPO parades have increased from 2408 to 2569, a 7% increase whilst nationalist parades have increased by a whopping 37% from 128 to 175.

    The SF contention that there are no contentious nationalist parades is poppycock. The PC says that 8% of nationalist parades are contentious.

    Has anyone challenged QUB about its figures and the apparent discrepancy between its and those produced by the PC.

  • Jagdip

    Ooops, this is the link to the SF statement from which the above extract is taken

    http://www.sinnfein.ie/contents/30880

    This looks seriously inaccurate on SF’s part, will anyone call them out on it?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Jagdip,

    What is the inaccuracy?

  • Jagdip

    @Joe, not sure what the apparent discrepancy between QUB and PC is, inaccuracy perhaps, but given QUB is now being cited by politicians, perhaps QUB should be challenged.

    The SF contention that there are no contentious nationalist parades is an inaccuracy in the sense that the PC says 8% of nationalist parades are contentious.