The problem is not a weak parades commission, it’s our politics..

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Fascinating. Liam Clarke nails something vital here:

….the only way through the marching season is for Parades Commission decisions to be honoured and enforced by the police. That is the message we need from politicians and, if they don’t like the situation, the answer is in their own hands.

They have spent years trying to agree an alternative means of regulating the very small number of disputed parades which blight each summer here.

Their failure is the backdrop to the mess that now seems to be unfolding this year. The uncertain touch of the current commission should spur the politicians on to agree something better when they meet in all-party talks next week.

Quite so. But if the latest Twitter briefing from Barney Rowan is anything go by, the word from SF point men Spike Murray and Bobby ‘How dare they’ Storey is, ‘Nah…’

As Gerry once idly boasted to RTE back in 2007 all of this discord suits Sinn Fein, so why would they let go now. The semeiotics of annual chaos suit their preferred narrative of the failed state they are in turn failing to administer.

Besides, it’s hardly a coincidence that in both places where both these disputes are taking place the party has a difficult turf war with dissident groups of ex SFers who are more than happy to take the credit for finishing ‘the fun so well begun’ by Mr Adams and Co back in the 1990s.

, , ,

  • MYtwocents

    “The slip road at Woodstock Link onto Woodstock Rd in East Belfast has been closed for traffic management due to a band parade later today.” psni twit, sorry tweet.

    Why would this road need to be closed 4 (yes 4) hours before the parade is due to start?, are they trying to encourage the thinking that Parades = disruption.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Morpheus

    ” up to £1000 a go I think he said”

    If the pay for loyalist bands to march with them why complain when republicans march??????

    That being the case why do they think its
    “It’s very difficult to determine where the Orange are and are not wanted. Due to some of the venom that RCs hold against the Orange, many Protestants are keen to at least publically distance themselves from it. ”
    Joe

  • Morpheus

    Let me get this straight, you read a tweet from the PSNI and instead of replying and asking them your question you thought it would be better if you asked no one in particular on Slugger instead? Hmmmmmm

    :)

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe_Hoggs

    How did you get a figure of “20,000″ (OO) within the ROI ?

  • between the bridges

    McS. As a slap ball fan can you tell me do the rebel county boys still fly the confederate flag…

  • Morpheus

    This one?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiOqLv4CAAAWt9T.jpg

    No, too classy for that

  • between the bridges

    Morph some GAA heads on another forum disagree with your assertion…

  • drmisery

    Btb. It is offensive to me that you continue to refer to slap-ball in what appears a derisory reference to gaa, would you kindly refrain; now that I’ve brought it to your attention and you’re an Orangemen and Christian and all that I’m sure you’d prefer not to offend

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Mc Slaggart,

    How did you get a figure of “20,000″ (OO) within the ROI ?
    ————————————————————————

    From a lodge meeting, Orangeism down south is thriving to the point that up here we are becoming an embarrassment to our Southern Brethren.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “From a lodge meeting,”

    I do not know of a single county in Ireland in which the OO could be described as “thriving”.

    When I listen to orange men I find they spend there days following the words of the god Shakespeare. “To thine own self be true” is the scripture they follow.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    When I listen to orange men I find they spend there days following the words of the god Shakespeare. “To thine own self be true” is the scripture they follow.
    —————————————————————————-

    Shakespeare, he would know the difference between their and there.

  • Mc Slaggart

    It would not have mattered as at the time of Shakespeare born their was no agreed dictionary.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    That explains your spelling/grammatical errors and that’s even before we try to analyse some of what you’ve said.

  • williewombat

    Joe and BTB you have had a lot of stamina here with the bile thats been thrown at you and in some cases the downright bigotry. The only way some of the contributors on here will be satisfied is if they can write and tell us what our culture is as they have shown no respect for the position of the Unionist population for 100years and seem to think that everyone should be falling overthemselves to respect them. Thats the best you can hope for extinction or exile would probably be their preferred route.
    They voted without a second thought in their thousands for Murderers and Criminals, set up their neighbours for butchery all in pursuit of their little green Ireland which is now a pipedream. Protestants aren`t aren`t even recognised by The Roman Catholic Church as equals and up to 1966 they wouldn`t darken the door of a Protestant church funerals or not.
    Slap ball has to be careful now that its getting Funded to death but certainly no Unionist could join and subscribe to their requirements for membership. Certainly not so bullish about their support for terrorists or murderers these days just the odd commemoration ceremony to children glorifying terrorists and the dual naming of some GAA grounds to accomodate the funding applications.
    The contributors coming on here with their bigoted abuse hatred and vile hatred and intolerance should go away and write out lines saying I am not a hypocete about 100,000 times shared future and peace its a mind dream with National Irelands mindset to say nothing of its Bloodstained wing Irish Republicanism. The gap between them is now paper thin.

    The Irish language should indeed be open to all except highjacked by Irish Reopublicans as a way of differentiating people and suppressing and intimidating people.

    337 members murdered thousands ofr attacks on our property and every aspect of “our” culture vilified Oppresssion must be resisted in every shape or form.

  • Mc Slaggart

    williewombat

    ” in their thousands for Murderers and Criminals”

    The OO pay “thousands for Murderers and Criminals” to march. It may be the reason for the term “billy no mates”.

    “dual naming of some GAA grounds”

    :-)

    ” “our” culture vilified ”

    What is it with unionists that they think they are the only people with a marching culture?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Willie,

    I think some in here are not aware of what true Orangeism is about, however it’s clear there are more than a few rogue elements within our ranks.

    I have most Nationalist on here prepared to debate the issue and even hopefully gain a better insight. On numerous times I am more at odds with my own side in terms of poor decorum on parade along with parading in jeans/tracksuits etc.

    Out of interest are you in the Orange?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart.

    That most recent post of yours is what’s referred to by Nationalists as ‘whatabouterry.”

    You said,

    The OO pay “thousands for Murderers and Criminals” to march. It may be the reason for the term “billy no mates”.
    —————————————————————————-

    Explain or remove your comment.

  • bystander

    What a depressing read, this site is full of moderate people not being trying to be moderate. Don’t think there is any point in getting involved, minds are set “bands don’t play real music they drill” or the one above the OO pay bands to parade so they “pay thousands for murderers and criminals” maybe the tax payer should think of this post when we look at the great and the good up in Stormont.

  • bystander

    sorry not sure where the being came from should have been even.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Bystander,

    Why would this post relate to the taxpayer?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    williewombat

    “They (non unionists??) voted without a second thought in their thousands for Murders and Criminals.”

    Now loyalists are famous for being both Murders and Criminals. 1

    As we know the OO pay pay loyalists {Murders and Criminals} to march with them.

    1
    “The modus operandi of loyalist paramilitaries involved assassinations, mass shootings, bombings and kidnappings. They used sub machine-guns, assault rifles, pistols, grenades (including homemade grenades), incendiary bombs, booby trap bombs and car bombs. Bomb attacks were usually made without warning. However, gun attacks were more common than bombings.[20] In January 1994, the UDA drew up a ‘doomsday plan’, to be implemented should the British Army withdraw from Northern Ireland. It called for ethnic cleansing and re-partition, with the goal of making Northern Ireland wholly Protestant.[21]“

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “billy no mates”

    Is an expression meaning “Someone with no friends”.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    As a statement that will simply not do. What murderers and criminals do the Orange pay to march?? I want specifics and do not evade this question again.

  • williewombat

    Joe I admire ur stamina but actually most of the contributors on here r keyboard warriors not looking to discuss but always looking to vilify others so they can get some great intellectual victory for the failed community they come from theyre not interested in shared future just demonisation vilification everybody wrong onlythem. Its been going on this site now for years. I am Orange and getting Oranger by the day. I have many true RC friends who show tolerance and with who I disagree regularly with out either of us having to give up our believes or having to b the winner/looser unlike the keyboard warriors on here

  • Comrade Stalin

    williewombat,

    Well done for starting out accusing others of bigotry hatred, and almost in the same breath criticizing the entire nationalist community for voting for “terrorists” and using terms like ball-slappers. Way to go. I particularly enjoy that little reference to the way Catholics were in 1966 (I think you mean Vatican II in 1960, but whatever). Most of us weren’t alive back then.

    Just by way of correction. No I don’t hate my Orange neighbours, I want to share the country with them and see that their rights and heritage are upheld to the maximum reasonable extent. The problem is that this requires a modicum of compromise. My tolerance of Orange parades does not extent to intimidation, deliberate provocation, urinating or defacation in public (especially near churches) and the singing of sectarian songs.

  • Submariner

    337 members murdered thousands ofr attacks on our property and every aspect of “our” culture vilified Oppresssion must be resisted in every shape or form.
    How many of those 337 were terrorists?

  • Mark

    ” I am Orange and getting Oranger by the day ” ……

    What does that mean ?? Have you come back from somewhere tropical ? Or maybe you’ve taken too many carotine tablets or you could be becoming an Umpa lumpa ?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “Robert William Bates” was on a banner of “Old Boyne Island Heroes” Orange Lodge. A fine upstanding Shankill Butcher, member of the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), killer of a member of the Ulster Defence Association and some Protestants.

    Described as “an easy-going, decent fellow, and as far as the Lodge is concerned, a man of good-standing”

  • MYtwocents

    MC, any idea when the GAA is to hosts its next Dominic Mcgilnchey night?.

  • MYtwocents

    Meanwhile back at the PC ranch.
    As non irish nats at Wednesdays Parades and the past talks, tried to find a resolution to the imminent Ardoyne Parade,
    Gerry Kelly with one eye looking over his shoulder at his old (still active) comrades of the Ardoyne IRA procrastinated.

    “Let’s be very, very clear about this,”
    ” we are talking about the overall issues.”
    “So to be very clear – we are not dealing with specific parades or protests in terms of these discussions, and I want to make that absolutely crystal clear.”

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    IF that’s true then it’s one rogue lodge out of 1200 across Ireland and again IF it’s true this lodge has broken the overall rules of the organisation.

    I would be very interested in getting BTB view on this topic.

  • Mc Slaggart

    MYtwocents

    “GAA is to hosts its next Dominic Mcgilnchey night”

    What is a Dominic Mcgilnchey night?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “IF that’s true then it’s one rogue lodge out of 1200 across Ireland.

    Then how did all these get in ?

    Gusty Spence,
    Robert Bates,
    Davy Payne,
    David Ervine,
    John Bingham,
    George Seawright,
    Richard Jameson,
    Billy McCaughey,
    Ernie Elliott,
    Robert McConnell.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    I would prefer to debate with a more enlightened and knowledgeable person than you.

    Just two names on your list as I can’t be bothered arguing a mute point

    1. David Ervine was a member for a very short time and well before he became involved in paramilitaries.

    2. Gusty Spence was expelled due to his involvement in paramilitaries.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “I would prefer to debate with a more enlightened and knowledgeable person than you.”

    Joe you dont even know how the OO is organised. You said in an earler post how their was 40 000 orange member’s in the north and 20 000 in the south. That that after a UI you would all be one organisation.

    That struck me as strange as the OO is already one organisation on the Island. I know sends representatives to the top table in Belfast.

  • Mc Slaggart

    donegal OO sends people to the top table in Belfast.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    The 34,000 members Drew Nelson mentioned were only those in NI and not the ROI. I can’t speak for Drew as to why he quoted NI figures only. The fact is that Orangeism in the ROI is rising like it or not.

  • Mc Slaggart

    As for Gusty Spence the Apprentice Boys of Derry did not kick him out.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Mc Slaggart,

    They did, it was just not made public.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “They did, it was just not made public.”

    Me thinks your nose just got longer.

    You do know that their is less than 40 orange halls in the “south”. If we take your 20 000 and divide by 40 = 500 members per hall. What hall in Fermanagh has a membership of 500????

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Billy Pilgrim,

    Is that a threat?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Mc Slaggart ,

    You do realise a large number of lodges have no halls at all and meet in houses etc??

  • Jagdip

    Might be worthy of a thread,

    The TUV has issued a press release in which it states “All Unionists are now in agreement that the Haass process has been “fruitless””
    http://tuv.org.uk/tuv-comments-on-parades-commission-decision-and-unionist-response/

    That appears to go much further than the joint statement (on behalf of a group which includes PUP and UPRG, though TUV appear to have wiped those two parties off the sole of their shoes in their statement).

    “The DUP and UUP will end their participation in the now fruitless Leaders talks.”

    If unionists are not characterising the Haass process as fruitless, then that is significant.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Jagdip,

    If unionists are not characterising the Haass process as fruitless, then that is significant.
    ————————————————————————–

    Unionsts are characterising the Haass process as fruitless.

  • drmisery

    Joe,
    It is both sad and disturbing we are no further on in all this. By no means am I a bigot, and I genuinely do think support should be given to the Orange, but one has to see that fermanagh and the religious focus of the organisation in the west is not mirrored in the east. The pragmatism of El Derry is not matched by the Belfast orange. It is time for people really to state what they’re for and not just want they’re against. I seem to remember a certain mp standing on the same platform as billy wright in portadown during the Orange protests at Drumcree,but all of us could be at this memory poaching all day. The Orange order need not apologise for being christian and thus should really exclude with gusto all such members who tinker with the dark arts of paramilitaries and white protestant supremacy. But alas no, would that be asking too much?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    drmisery,

    There is not much if anything I disagree with you on. Internal discipline is an issue and anyone involved with paramilitaries and racist groups should be expelled. I do however feel the Orange can be a force for good in rehabilitating those that are off the tracks so to speak and for some I know this has been the case.

  • drmisery

    I agree the Orange Order could be something special for all the community . But the problem is ye must repent and ask forgiveness in a Christian way for all the sins that occurred under the Orange umbrella. We must all acknowledge our failings in this shithole caused by the failings of our forefathers , no one should dare to think they have moral superiority. But to really ask for forgiveness takes courage and strength, and real humanity and unfortunately the Orange in Belfast is so bound up with macho horse manure to lay prostrate before their neighbours and allow space cannot occur due to the reliance on steroids and tattoos. It is time to wash the feet Orange order, it is time to acknowledge perceptions of being affected by the Orange in a bullying culture is a bullying culture.

    It is time to wash feet not march

  • drmisery

    There you go, walking out, no washing of feet. Is there no one able to truly lead in unionism? More of the same, no imagination, where are the thinkers, the dreamers, the risk takers? Empty. A community bereft of hope, the cancer of uncertainty slowly gnawing at the shell of their loyalty, waiting for the end. And it’s coming demographicly
    Jesus wept

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Who has walked out Dr. Misery?

  • antamadan

    Does anyone think that the police reforms of Patten could ever have been negotiated/agreed with a majority of unionists? They had to be just brought in.

    Maybe its the same with some other aspects of unionist dominance (flags/parades), where what’s needed is visible respect for British and Irish identies in NI (and don’t tell me about the (odd) Irish flag here and the nationalist parade there, when any visitor from Mars knows the place is painted red white and blue).

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe

    “You do realise a large number of lodges have no halls at all and meet in houses etc??”

    Their is not that many lodges who have no hall to go to. The actual attendance at halls is very small. Before you tell me how many attend everyone can see how may cars turn up at the halls.

  • drmisery

    but there seemed to be one or two Orangemen on the BBC news website; really Joe are you telling me that talks about marching with senior Orangemen present has nothing to do with the Orange???

    Let’s be honest now. Sure there were three men in sashs outside the police station at tennent street with a sign saying ” free our loyalist prisoners” (belfast tele page 5)

    Honestly perceptions???

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Dr.Misery,

    You suggested that Orangemen worked in the media.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    McSlaggart,

    Are you counting cars outside Orange Halls now?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Joe Hoggs

    ‘Is that a threat?’

    I honestly have no idea what you’re talking about here.

    But let me reassure you that I have neither the capacity nor the inclination to threaten anyone.

    Out of interest, what did I say, that you interpreted as a possible threat? I’m genuinely confounded.

  • drmisery

    C’mon Joe, within the confines of the smart phone and autocorrection, all our fat, middle aged fingers come close to scriptive representations of common parlance. So, sorry for the poor adherence to “eats shoots and leaves”, but my point is that it is clear to me Joe you are wrestling with your inner rebel. You are unhappy it would seem with the urban tumour in the order, but just can’t decide what to do. Am I wrong?
    Can I suggest splitting or disciplining with zero tolerance? The Democratic party in the states had a bad rep when dealing with slavery. I would suggest they have rehabilitated this imag e quit successfully by humbling themselves such that now they get the majority of the African American vote now despite Lester maddox in the sixties. Humility then wash the feet but I suppose the Orange have done nothing wrong….

  • Jagdip

    Whatever about the weakness of the PC, and the weakness of our politicians, there is an emerging concern about the weakness of our police service. With police standing back and allowing LUPOs to erect flags on Lisburn Road PSNI station and in the grounds of a Catholic church in Moygashel, and the spectacle of negotiations with “residents and community leaders” as a precursor to taking down a KKK flag in east Belfast, the concern is that George Hamilton is buckling under the pressure of his new role.
    He told the media on Thursday that he has not requested mutual assistance, despite the evidence that the “graduated response” by LUPOs is targeting the stretching of police resources to the point that the Ardoyne march is forced through.
    Last year, Matt Baggott received the assistance of 630 officers from Britain. George Hamilton needs ten times that number.
    With the recent court of appeal decision, George can tell us on Saturday next when the LUPOs are wrecking mayhem in north Belfast and in a network of flashpoints across the six counties, that the PSNI is not required to intervene when illegality is taking place, but can follow up when tensions have subsided afterwards (by the way, it was the breach of this practice which led to the Gerry Kelly bonnet incident last year, when the PSNI arrested a teenager on the spot).
    If that is to be the PSNI practice this year, then the arrests must come no later than Sunday 13th. The courts must be kept open 24-7. The culprits must receive lengthy custodial sentences which will keep them off the streets for more than a year. The prisons in the six counties and in Britain must be prepared to accept hundreds and low thousands of these criminals.
    Is the PC weak? No, I think it did its job. Are politicians weak? Some are, and this week, the LUPOs didn’t cover themselves in glory and this weakness was amplified by the statesmanlike Shinners seeking solutions in Downing Street (sorry, Westminster) and Dublin. It wasn’t the nationalists who walked out of talks, which in the end, will be the only solution. But the question now is, are the police and judiciary strong enough to uphold law in an efficient and timely (and timely means arrests on Saturday/Sunday, not some time in September) manner?

  • Son of Strongbow

    Oh dear some are not keeping up. ‘Community policing’ is here to stay; and a central tenet of that policing style sees the police ‘negotiating’ a resolution to problems.

    Now whilst it is somewhat refreshing to observe some nationalists metamorphosing into latter day ‘hang’em high’ advocates a revisit to Duke Street Londonderry circa 1968 is unlikely to happen (and just because it might be themuns at the wrong end of a police baton won’t make it any more possible).

    The world has moved on. The Human Rights Act requires any use of force by the police to be ‘absolutely necessary’. Appealing to armchair commanders desire to see cracked skulls would not achieve that criteria.

    Human Rights, community service, community restorative justice and a macro community response to lawbreaking involving the police and all other ‘stakeholders’ is the only game in town.

    Disappointingly, for some, Sheriff Hamilton is not going to ride into town at noon to ‘clean up’ the streets: and it has feck-all to do with him “buckling under the pressure of his new role”.

  • Jagdip

    @SoS

    No-one wants to see cracked heads, we all know from regrettable experience where that leads.

    But what many, most, want to see is the PSNI upholding the law. the point I was making was that the law should be upheld in a timely manner.

    CC Hamilton told the News Letter today
    ““If they breach the determination, if they involve themselves in disorder we will arrest them if it’s appropriate to do so and we will certainly collect evidence and come and knock their door at some point … and charge them”

    It’s the “at some point” that is concerning. With another 6,000 officers from mutual assistance plus significant air support, there is no reason whatsoever why the LUPOs (and indeed, idiots on the nationalist side, there is no monopoly) that do cause mayhem next week, can’t be arrested and charged within a day. That was the approach which Britain adopted in 2011 during the London and regional rioting, that’s what is required here today. In the heat of a mass riot, the PSNI are operationally restricted, but video and air support and manpower means the miscreants can be dealt with quickly – that’s Sunday 13th, not sometime in September.

    CC Hamilton can call on mutual assistance and those shoes should now be on the ground in the province, given the clear signalling of protest which will inevitably turn violent.

    Courts too should be planning for 24-7 processing, and accommodation at prisons/remand centres should now be the subject of rigorous analysis to ensure there is a joined up approach between the police, judiciary and prison services.

  • Greenflag

    @ williewombat,

    “I am Orange and getting Oranger by the day”,

    Don’t worry wombat -it’s a normal phenomenon as e approach the 12th July on which day you will be Orangest of all no doubt :)

    Try and enjoy the 12th and behave yourself like the Orangemen who march at Rossnowlagh in Donegal . Try and stay sober , drink in moderation, wear good walking boots , bring an umbrella and pray to your God to bestow some political nous on your political leaders for it appears they’ve been dealt only a pair of deuces /dunces and the bluffing no longer works ,

  • Son of Strongbow

    Jagdip

    Would that we lived in a place where the police, whilst not operating in a vacuum (as in everywhere else in the world), did not have to perform on a stage so jammed full of competing histories and (ye Gods) ‘narratives’.

    In GB during the disturbances you mentioned the police had the support of the vast majority of the public and taking robust action against rioters garnered near universal popular support.

    In GB the police, happily for them and the public they serve, do not have our history.

    However having said that I would argue that should the police in England be called upon to police disturbances originating in an ethnic minority community, say a Muslim community in some northern mill town, they would be employing many of the negotiating tactics and operational ‘restraint’ we witness locally.

    In NI the police are faced with even much more delicate intricacies to thread their way through. Whilst it is possibly true to say that the majority of people here support law enforcement that only goes so far before it gets a bit fuzzy.

    It would not long before questions would be asked about why such and such tactic was not used when so and so broke the law. As we have witnessed on Slugger the police are criticised on their response to single incidents by reference to some other event, often dredged up from the brimful of occurrences from the recent or not so recent past.

    At the end of the day the schism in this part of the world is a societal issue not a policing one. The solution, if there is one, will be similarly located.

    Alternatively championing and then demonising the police is simply a mechanism that avoids addressing the bigger questions (not that there are any answers to those floating about either).

  • Sp12

    Look what the bloody Shinners have done now

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-28175940

  • DC

    Sp12, fewer in number than the 41 arrested when the Love Ulster rally, which never happened, arrived in Dublin.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Whataboutery never ends for some. They revel in it.

  • Sp12

    “Sp12, fewer in number than the 41 arrested when the Love Ulster rally, which never happened, arrived in Dublin.”

    Haha, yeah, uhmm
    One of those things was a riot and the other markets itself as a religious procession of old men going to church and stuff.
    You’re not very good at this are you?

  • ForkHandles

    The problem is not related to a body that has to rule on various parades. The problem is sectarian hatred from the people that seek to parade and the people that seek to stop parades. If there was no sectarian antagonism from the parade then there would be no reason for residents to object to a parade. In every western society there is a normal mindset of the default position being that people can practice their traditions wherever they want. It doesn’t matter if they are a minority. Tolerance is the normal opinion. If Orange Order people want to parade then it should not matter if they are a minority in whatever town or street. Residents should try and question their sectarian hatred of protestants in general. Also Orange Order people should recognize that no one wants a hate filled event in their neighborhood. If OO people can’t understand that then they should expect people to wish to have no OO parade near them.

  • looneygas

    I think the BBC piece that Sp12 linked to is an excellent example of a successful parade. Their were only 18 people arrested out of 8500. I liked the comments from Mr. Hyde, which I cut and pasted here:

    Eddy Hyde, of the Grand Orange Lodge of Scotland, said: “The new training regime for stewards that we organise in partnership with the police now means that we have over 2,500 of our own trained stewards for our events throughout Scotland.

    “This has led to a real reduction on police resources without any adverse impact on safety or public order.”

    Looking ahead to other summer parades he urged every member of the Orange Order to enjoy the days with the “utmost decorum”.

    He said: “Our parades are a celebration of our heritage, not an excuse for anyone to criticise anyone else’s faith or beliefs.”

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Good point, looneygas. There is plenty of room for everyone so long as things are done respectfully, which, indeed, they are mostly during the majority of OO parades. We have many examples of respectful engagement. We just need a few more.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    williewombat

    Just a quick question:

    Do you have any opposition to the idea of using the Rossnowlagh parade as a template of sorts of the Belfast parade? (as far as it is possible to do so).

  • drmisery

    Not so triumphalist in rossnowlagh, heavier on the religious and 99s. Not so triumphalist in El Derry, more “don’t ham up the “we’re up to our eyes in fenian blood” stuff or this Orange mecca is no go”

    If one has a rowdy drunken brother who turns up at family events drunk or embarrasses the hosts, there is usually a contingency plan to manage them by either not inviting them or hiding the gin. Perhaps the oo could adopt a similar method for the hangers on

  • Greenflag

    @ Forkhandles ,

    Congratulations sir on achieving the 666th post on this thread . You may be the first to achieve this numerical distinction . This achievement singles you out as eh well according to those of a biblical mentality marked for future whatever is the opposite of rapturous events as the world comes to an end -yet again and again ;)

    A couple of points on your post

    ‘The problem is sectarian hatred from the people that seek to parade and the people that seek to stop parades.’

    The use of ‘some of ‘ before ‘the people ‘ in both cases above would be much close to the truth . I’d be inclined to believe that it’s not purely sectarian hatred that motivates a few but also political and ethno cultural lack of tolerance.

    Not to worry -In life the ‘haters ‘ always lose . They suffer from higher rates of anxiety , heart attacks , strokes and seem to contract various cancers more than most . Some of course meet untimely deaths as a result of their overabundance of hatred .And being a Christian I suppose you know what the Christ said about those who hate ?

    ‘In every western society there is a normal mindset of the default position being that people can practice their traditions wherever they want. It doesn’t matter if they are a minority.’

    That would be the case in normal western democracies . In that regard Northern Ireland while it’s in the west is not, well not yet a ‘normal democracy ‘ and may never last long enough to become one . That’s why NI has mandated power sharing i.e because of the failure of the various administrations during it’s history to promote ‘tolerance ‘ and not turn a blind eye to bigotry . The after effects of such regimes does’nt disappear overnight or simply by passing a law .

    The rest of your post I can’t disagree with although it would be a mistake to assume that residents in those affected areas hate protestants in general simply because they oppose an OO march past their neighbourhood .

    ‘Tolerance is the normal opinion.’

    Hopefully it will be eventually in NI but by the time they ALL get it or enough get it -not to make a difference -there probably will be no NI – or not one in it’s present format .

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    If Cameron could spare the votes at Westminster then a quick way to solve this would be to send some slippery mandarin ‘Humphrey’ type to hint that if the parading situation isn’t sorted sooner rather than later then a border poll will.

    Carnival season pushes even unionist types away from ‘unionist types’ and would increase the chances of a yes vote.

    If that doesn’t get their attention then nothing will.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    DC, When those “loyalist” would be snipers take your advice and start murdering police officers, are you going to be sitting at your keyboard typing :good, way to go”?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Rossnowlagh was excellent as usual this year, issues with alcohol are limited and there is never any trouble.

    It’s interesting to note that the number of bands in attendance was down on previous years and this has been a gradual trend for a number of years now. It’s disappointing that many of the bands in Fermanagh who only have one or two parades a year didn’t bother attending with their accompanying lodges. The informal invite structure implemented by Donegal perhaps needs looked at with a more focused element on some of these smaller entities.

    Some of the bands out on parade were also a little bit of a shambles with the three practices per year showing. Some of these bands are important to their local communities so I’m not sure why they practice so little.

    The parade itself it a little bit of an issue with too many stoppages and towards the end of the parade on the return route there is no end point with bands and lodges all ending randomly at different parts.

    Oh toileting facilities are practically non-existent.

    Overall though this was a very good day out.

  • redstar2011

    Joe Hoggs-Oh toileting facilities are practically non-existent

    Luckily in Belfast for OO/Bands that’s never an issue- there’s always a chapel you can p@@s up against

  • Joe_Hoggs

    redstar2011,

    Lets not get into whataboutery.

  • redstar2011

    Not whataboutery Joe.

    Good you had an enjoyable time in Donegal

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe_Hoggs

    “It’s disappointing that many of the bands in Fermanagh who only have one or two parades a year didn’t bother attending with their accompanying lodges.”

    Their is no “crack” for the bands in Donegal.

    “Oh toileting facilities are practically non-existent.”

    That is a OO matter which need addressed for a lot of its events.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Mc Slaggart,

    Their is no “crack” for the bands in Donegal.
    ————————————————————————–

    Incorrect, the bands I mentioned only tend to complete their own church parade along with the annual Twelth walk.
    —————————————————————————

    That is a OO matter which need addressed for a lot of its events.
    —————————————————————————-

    Agreed, how expensive are portaloos to hire? Fermanagh would have around 10-15 for an event that has 30,000 people at it!!!

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Am Ghobsmacht ,

    Do you think a Rossnowlagh solution would fit regionally?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Joe_Hoggs

    “the bands I mentioned only tend to complete their own church parade along with the annual Twelth walk.”

    How many of those bands have members who play in other bands?

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Mc Slaggart,

    Very few to be honest, some of those smaller bands would benefit from going to the Donegal Twelfth along with their lodge.

    These are very rural bands and lodges and the only way to attract new members in is to go to events such as this.

  • Joe_Hoggs

    Quite a few posts have went missing here.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Willie Wombat

    In all seriousness, do you absorb information or only information that leads to a doomsday scenario?

    You say nationalists have not tolerated unionist culture for 100 years.

    IF that’s true then there would be no marching in nationalist towns this past 100 years.

    Yet, even last year there was a 12th in Nationalist towns (I know, I was at one of them with my foreign, unionist, pro-monarchy Catholic wife, I was showing her some aspects of Irish culture that she has never been exposed to and she liked it).

    So, by that very token your point is devoid of foundation. Worse than that, it’s a falsehood.

    The only way it could make any sense is if you go through the thought process that many loyalists I have known over the years go through, observe:

    Step 1: Look for evidence of nationalist intolerance, whether it be from people genuinely upset at some parades or politically driven protests

    Step 2: Inconveniently find evidence of nationalist tolerance (Rossnowlagh, Londonderry, Magherafelt, Rasharkin, Carnlough, Cookstown….)

    Step 3: Ignore step 2 and focus solely on the (smaller) number of nationalist intolerance and act like every parade and every step has been fought for tooth and nail (which it hasn’t).

    Step 4: Accuse all nationalists of voting for SFIRA since day one (which they don’t and haven’t, SF’s share of the vote only went up after the ceasefires and GFA).

    “They voted without a second thought in their thousands for Murderers and Criminals, set up their neighbours for butchery all in pursuit of their little green Ireland which is now a pipedream

    Who did? ALL Catholics? Can you prove that? You do know that SF’s share of the vote went up when they STOPPED killing people?

    Have you not read the numerous comments on here from people of a Catholic back ground who have stated that they are pro-union/status quo and others said they could be if unionism calmed down?
    If you have read these then your branding of all Catholics as intolerant and anti union is obviously incorrect.

    ” Protestants aren`t aren`t even recognised by The Roman Catholic Church as equals and up to 1966 they wouldn`t darken the door of a Protestant church funerals or not.


    Well, ditto some elements of the Orange Order to this very day, so, that’s a pot-kettle situation there. You can’t complain about that at all.
    I think you’d also be alarmed to find out how many people who were born into the Catholic church are now atheist or have no love of the that church.
    You are aware of all the anger towards the church and it’s cover ups aren’t you? Of course you are. Even though it contradicts your message….
    Also Willie, a question for you: What is the difference between an Irish Catholic, an Irish nationalist, an Irish republican , an Irish atheist nationalist and an Irish atheist republican?
    Look, most people here (not all) just want the OO and politicians to man up and criticise the underbelly of marching.
    Criticising a drunken tattooed lout who shouts “FTP!” at a parade is NOT criticising the decent Orangemen who enjoy the big day out.
    Criticising the burning of religious relics, tyres and posters on bonfires is NOT the same as criticising an orderly procession on its way to church
    Criticising a band for displaying loyalist terrorist standards is NOT vile bigotry or a statement of support for the Provos.
    Do you understand this or is it simply “you’re either with us or against us’?
    Willie, for the sake of logic and reason could you just ‘listen’?
    I have said nothing bigoted nor hate filled in the above statement, I am a unionist of an Orange background (though obviously not in the OO or bands anymore) and I wish to see the preservation of marching culture. So don’t hit me with your usual ‘bigoted bile’ nonsense, it doesn’t wash.