Kyle Paisley, Pastor McConnell & Peter Robinson

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Kyle Paisley has commented on the recent McConnell / Robinson Islam debate over on the Eamonn Mallie blog.

While there are irreconcilable differences between the theology of Biblical Protestantism and the theology of traditional Islam, this is no reason for any man to go out of his way in order to insult another.

One has to wonder what Kyle Paisley therefore thinks of Rev Ian Paisley protesting the Pope or Ian Paisley Jnr being ‘repulsed’ by gay people.

All Free Presbyterian Ministers sign the Westminster Confession on becoming a minister which reads in part:

V The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error; and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan. Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.

VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.

‘Synagogues of Satan’ referring to the Book of Revelation usage of the term. The Sermon Audio website has many similar sermons to that preached by Pastor McConnell by various Evangelical denominations including some by the DUP’s Rev William McCrea MP.

The Guardian in the meantime blames the whole thing on Scottish Calvinism. And The Spectator says ‘Let Evangelical Protestants be Evangelical Protestants

Update:

The Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster Government & Morals Committee have released a letter published in today’s News Letter stating that Christians have a duty to warn of false teaching.

Free Presbyterian Church supports Pastor McConnell

Whilst the Rev Ivan Foster had also blogged good support branding Islam Heathen.

Islam is a heathen invention of men and is totally repudiated by the Word of God. It is a Christ-denying blasphemy which sets itself up as the only means of salvation whereas the Word of God states clearly that:

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me,” John 14:6, KJV.

Furthermore, the salvation of the sinner comes about as a result of the Saviour’s death on the cross and not as a result of any series of self-works as taught by Islam.

“ . . . and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin,” 1 John 1:7, KJV. “

The Rev Brian McClung (Free P Minister & Administrator of Newtownabbey Independent Christian School) had also blogged his support.

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  • Charles_Gould

    This story is getting London interest. Anna now on Newsnight, Anna on C4 news today both.

  • Morpheus

    Amnesty International have released a statement:

    “Governments are obliged to combat negative stereotypes of, and discrimination against, individuals and communities on the basis of their nationality, ethnicity, religion or belief. As head of the Northern Ireland government, the First Minister had an opportunity do just that. He blew it.”

    http://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/northern-ireland-amnesty-response-comments-first-minister-re-anti-islam-sermon

  • http://www.ulster-scots.co.uk Kilsally

    I have posted the blog above as comments on the Mallie blog but they have all been deleted, repeatedly.

  • Charles_Gould

    Kilns ally

    It’s interesting that the pastor seems to be getting a lot of support on the spectator comment zone!

  • Pete Baker

    On the pastor’s comments, and in reference to the original post, as I said back in 2007,

    Whilst I’m not a supernaturalist [you're not?! - Ed] the politics, both internal and external, of the organisations involved are still interesting to watch.

    As Patsy McGarry put it at the time

    And now, from the people who brought us Limbo, then took it away. Who gave us Hell, took it away too, and have since tried to give it back to us. Who gave us the Latin Mass, took it from us, and gave it back last Saturday.

    Yes, from those same people we now have a repeat, summer-time restatement of why being Roman Catholic is “simply the best”. Furthermore, they explain again why being Protestant is to be a yellow-pack Christian.

    Yes, from the very people who under Pope Paul VI told us that Christians who were Protestant belonged to “sister churches” of the Roman Catholic Church, we are being told again that Protestant (Reformed) churches are not really sister churches at all.

    Now, they are not even churches “in the proper sense”. A bit like St Christopher, they have been demoted. They are now mere “ecclesial communities”. You could say they remain in something of an ecclesiological Limbo. If Limbo still existed.

    Pity our Anglicans, our Presbyterians, our Methodists, etc. They do not know it really, despite being told before, but their priests/ministers are not really priests or ministers at all. And as for their Holy Communion – it’s a sham! All a sham.

    Even if, when in 1997 Cardinal Desmond Connell used that word after President McAleese received communion at a Church of Ireland Eucharist service in Dublin’s Christ Church Cathedral, he meant it was “a sham” for a Roman Catholic like her to do such a thing. But, let’s be frank, it is the Holy Orders and the Holy Communion of the Reformed Churches that Rome really sees as “a sham”.

    To be fair and as you would expect, Cardinal William Levada, current prefect of the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, put in somewhat differently in yesterday’s document (which was approved by Pope Benedict).

    He said: “According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called ‘Churches’ in the proper sense.”

    All of which can be summarised in one pithy word – sham!

    Despite the best attempts of some to turn this into a party political issue, or even a racial issue, the reality is that the comments, at heart, remain an issue of competing religions.

    But it’s also worth remembering what Anna Lo has said, as the intro to this UTV report notes

    Anna Lo of the Alliance Party has said she is planning to quit Northern Ireland politics but that it is because she is “fed up with tribal politics”.

    Here’s a quote from Anna Lo in March this year

    “Tribal politics and the lack of delivery on many bread and butter issues can turn women off politics. They can often view the Assembly as a hot house for trivial party politics and bickering.

    And from April 2010

    Alliance South Belfast candidate Anna Lo has stated that the move by Sinn Fein to withdraw their candidate Alex Maskey from the South Belfast election is despicable tribal politics. She has said that this development is similar to the sectarian headcount created because the UUP and DUP agreed to have a unionist unity candidate.

    Anna Lo said: “This is just more tribal politics – it is no different to the sectarian headcount caused by the UUP and DUP agreeing a candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone.

    I am very disappointed and extremely angry that Sinn Fein has decided that they are putting tribal issues ahead of the very real problems facing people in South Belfast.

    These tribal stitch-ups have to stop because they undermine democracy and they cheapen politics in Northern Ireland. These are very ugly and extremely crude tactics.

    People will be angry that parties are playing lowest-common denominator politics with this election when jobs are being lost and our frontline services are under threat.”

    Something to keep in mind…

  • DC

    Spectator

    “Moreover, he robustly declared that he himself had a problem with Muslims in terms of terrorism and sharia law, though obviously he’d trust them to go down to the shops for him…ie and bring back the change. This is so hair-raisingly un-PC, so riotously non-conformist, you have to salute Mr Robinson.”

    Well he did end up backtracking and apologising, I initially thought he just didn’t give a shit and to hell with it type thing, hmmm not so!

  • abucs

    It is interesting that Anna commented that it was difficult for a woman to be part of the system she described as ‘tribal politics’.

    I would put it another way. The femnisation of politics shuts down debate on sensitive issues,creates a hierarchy of victimhood and emotionally blackmails participants to adhere to a moral group think.

    Catholics took the time to culturally understand Mr Paisley’s outbursts against the Pope and were confident enough to engage and discuss the matter maturely.

    Ms Lo would do well to also be culturally aware and not try to emotionally shame people who do not follow her moral group-think or those who she deems to be on a lower ladder of the victimhood tree than herself or the group that we dare not criticise.

    In short Ms Lo try to understand and engage with people and groups as they are and not stand at a distance trying to force them to be a moral copy of yourself through emotional shaming.

  • gendjinn

    The femnisation of politics shuts down debate on sensitive issues,creates a hierarchy of victimhood and emotionally blackmails participants to adhere to a moral group think.

    Misogyny at it’s finest. I prefer my bigots out in the open where we can identify and ignore them.

  • http://www.oldfaith.wordpress.com truthfinder

    It would be better if all sides just stood by their beliefs. We are constantly being told politicians should be authentic. But when they do they are blasted from pillar to post.

    The Roman Church has issued its official position that all other churches (including Protestant) are not true churches in Dominus Iesus in 2000.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus

    As an evangelical Protestant, I have no problem with that. There is nothing offensive as I reject their interpretation and application of the Bible. Likewise I am not offended by the village idiot philosophy of the Richard Dawkins of this world. I see the tunnel he wants us to go down but I see no light there!

    HM Government operates within a Protestant Christian Framework. It is not pluralistic or religiously neutral. The Government is only obliged to ensure that there is freedom of religious thought and worship. Contrary to Amnesty’s claims, HMG is not obliged to defend the values and theology of competing religious thought to Biblical Christianity. In fact, it should not as it is constitutionally obliged to maintain the Protestant Faith.

    A touch of common sense in order! We have unrepentant child murderers and sectarian murderers sitting in our Stormont Government. I would have thought that should be enough to occupy the “outrage brigade” from Amnesty, the Guardian and Stephen Nolan.

  • abucs

    I am so ashamed now I better be quiet. See how it works?

    No discussion of points. No attempt at understanding. A very narrow manufactured morality that everyone must adhere to without intellectual discussion or the political correct police start their shaming.

    Our politics is much poorer and weaker because of this attitude. The inability to properly discuss the very real consequences of different followers of Islam is but one example.

    The irony is that such an attitude that pretends to be civil by shutting down debate and shaming people not adhering to certain restrictive group-thinks actually creates more Pastor McConells.

  • gendjinn

    abucs,

    you didn’t engage in discussion, you engaged in a misogynistic rant.

    Do you not understand how offensive your prejudice is? Being a contemptible piece of shit is not an acceptable defense.

  • Dec

    ‘In short Ms Lo try to understand and engage with people and groups as they are and not stand at a distance trying to force them to be a moral copy of yourself through emotional shaming.’

    Something for her to bear in mind next time she’s being chased through Connswater shopping centre.

  • babyface finlayson

    abucs
    When did she describe the makeup of this victimhood tree and her place on it? I must have missed that.
    Has she not spent her political career here trying to;
    “understand and engage with people and groups as they are and not stand at a distance”?
    As Dec points out when it comes to Connswater she would be well advised to stand at a distance.

  • David Crookes

    Suddenly a real and serious story rises above the discussion of trivialities.

    From todays BBC news:

    “UK political leaders have united to urge Sudan to lift the “barbaric” death sentence handed down to a Christian woman accused of abandoning Islam.

    “A court ruled that Meriam Ibrahim, who was raised by her Christian mother and married a Christian, was Muslim in line with her father – which she rejects.

    “David Cameron, Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg said they were appalled by the treatment of Ms Ibrahim, who gave birth to a daughter in her cell on Wednesday.

    “She has appealed against her sentence.

    “Mr Cameron said the treatment of Ms Ibrahim had “no place in today’s world” and said the UK would “continue to press the government of Sudan to act”. Mr Clegg and Mr Miliband both said her case was “abhorrent”. ”

    If Meriam Ibraham and her family were transported to Northern Ireland, whom might they feel like condemning?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Truthfinder

    “The Roman Church has issued its official position that all other churches (including Protestant) are not true churches in Dominus Iesus in 2000″

    Great. But no one cares.

    I sometimes think Norn Irish Protestants pay more attention to the Vatican than irish Catholics.

    IF the RC church came out with comments that could lead to attacks on Protestant minorities, then we’d have a problem (and before you start flicking through ‘atrocities of the counter reformation Vol IX’ I’m referring to modern 21st century comments.)

    “We have unrepentant child murderers and sectarian murderers sitting in our Stormont Government..”

    Yes we do.

    We voted for it.

    Our Government ok’d it, the South’s did too.

    Sorry.

    Get over it.

    It shan’t be readdressed.

    If you don’t want people to vote SF then devise a strategy that weakens their support base and appeal.

    That s now the only logical course to take.

    Ranting about it won’t make it any better.

    ‘ Likewise I am not offended by the village idiot philosophy of the Richard Dawkins of this world”

    There’s nothing offensive about science, so you shouldn’t be offended.

    Admittedly, Dawkins does go too far (imo) as he seems to relish it, which is not something I’m comfortable with.
    He is, as a feller said to me once ‘evangelically anti-evangelical’.

  • Mc Slaggart

    truthfinder

    “The Roman Church has issued its official position that all other churches (including Protestant) are not true churches in Dominus Iesus in 2000.”

    Nope:

    “The document reserves the word “Church” for bodies that have preserved a “valid episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery.”[5] Such bodies, which include the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Old Catholic Churches, “are true particular Churches,”[6] and the document affirms that “the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of Primacy.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominus_Iesus

  • abucs

    Dec, the situations are not the same, hence logic would dictate that what is suggested in one scenario doesn’t automatically translate to another. It is you who are conflating those two scenarios. Last time I checked, it wasn’t Pastor McConelll chasing her across the shopping centre.

    Gennjinn ,like the Islamic terrorist who turns to violence to protest at being called violent, you have made a similar response.

    Having questioned the level of manufactured morality shaming that is used instead of reasoned debate your immediate reaction is to call me a ‘misogynist’ and a ‘contemptible piece of shit’ without discussion on the points raised.

    You make the perfect example of what I am talking about. Thank you.

    There is a worrying tendency that if you do not sign up to a certain moral outlook you are automatically branded a hater in the most foul pontificating.

    Such a juvenile mentality is not good for the progress of any society and is not only unintellectual but a frightening look at the abyss that some are pushing us towards.

  • cynic2

    “It shan’t be readdressed.”

    It is being gradually addressed For all the hot air SF vote has plateaued. The DUPs is falling back slightly. Above all more and more of just wont vote for any of them

  • gendjinn

    abucs,

    we had exactly the right sort of debate about your prejudice. Your attitude is unacceptable and you got called on it. Either mature or get used to it.

    “The femnisation of politics….” You really don’t have a clue, do you?

  • gendjinn

    cynic2,

    one election does not a trend make, let’s see what happens in the GE & Stormont elections in 2016. It is clear that SFs easy gains in the north have been made and future growth is likely on the backs of demography and therefore at a lower rate than the last 20 years.

    BUT in the south it’s a whole different ball game and their meteoric ascent will continue. Their dominance of councils on both sides of the border is giving them immense power to erase the border. Once they are in government in the south, it will synergise with their position in the north.

    Unionists can only fight SF in the north and SF doesn’t need to get any bigger there to achieve their objectives.

  • abucs

    so no debate….cased closed … prejudiced ….. unacceptable ,,,,,,, immature ……. clueless ……..

    and lets not forget those earlier gems of yours – misogyny and contemptible piece of shit..

    All for little more than criticising the feminisation of politics in some respects.

    I wonder if I had said that the feminisation of politics introduced a more well-rounded, caring, civil and broader perspective discourse if you had gone off your rocker and started throwing nasty names around without any intelligent response?

    That’s what’s wrong with this emotional shaming culture. It only allows one train of thought. All others are shouted down.

    That approach has got a limited life span and is juvenile.

  • gendjinn

    abucs,

    so your position is that if you hadn’t been sexist and used feminsation as a pejorative you wouldn’t have been criticised?

    But as your position is sexist and you used feminsation as a pejorative you were criticised.

    Yeah, I think I can go along with that reasoning :)

  • carl marks

    abucs,
    this is wierd even for you,
    “I would put it another way. The femnisation of politics shuts down debate on sensitive issues,creates a hierarchy of victimhood and emotionally blackmails participants to adhere to a moral group think.”
    So women should stay at home and not worry their pretty little heads about politics, they are much happier having babies and cooking and doing what the man of the house says!
    Then this,
    Ms Lo would do well to also be culturally aware and not try to emotionally shame people who do not follow her moral group-think or those who she deems to be on a lower ladder of the victimhood tree than herself or the group that we dare not criticise.
    Looks like a diatribe to me, but hey I could be wrong tell me how does complaining about vile sectarian abuse and threats be “emotionally shaming to people who do not follow her moral group mind”? And this victimhood tree thing care to explain it.
    This last bit,
    “In short Ms Lo try to understand and engage with people and groups as they are and not stand at a distance trying to force them to be a moral copy of yourself through emotional shaming.”
    That sounds more like he tone of many of your posts but I may well be wrong again so give examples please.
    Abuccs I know you avoid answering when you are asked to explain or prove your posts but try this time, you will learn more if you engage instead of running away.

  • carl marks

    If anybody is interested try abuccs website;

    whatswrongwithatheism

    His views on everything from science, religion and history make fascinating reading; he seems to have lived in a different world from the rest of us.
    But be informed like his posts check every fact and prepare to be amused!

  • abucs

    Gennjinn,

    the position stated was first suggested to me by a very successful woman and friend . She owns her own computer company, has a series of university degrees and advises the Ukranian government on education.

    The great majority of women are not beholden to the feminist crusaders. They, including my strong willed friend can think for themselves and choose who represents them.

    When the feminisation of politics is criticised your response is exactly the problem. There is the rush to take offense, the claim of victimhood, the claim to represent all supposed victims, the projection of hate onto the one making the comment and a torrent of vile names and ‘isms’ trotted out in some attempt to culturally shame even the raising of criticism .

    This is exactly my point.

    My friend is an extremely smart and successful woman. She’s got your measure completely.

    She is strong and confident enough not to get dragged into a false ‘tribal politics’ with regards to gender and shaming.

    Increasingly, the real tribal politics here is less Catholic and Protestant and more the frightening restriction on the freedom of thought and expression made by those claiming to be progressive and standing above ‘tribal politics’.

  • carl marks

    abucs

    abucs
    the position stated was first suggested to me by a very successful woman and friend . She owns her own computer company, has a series of university degrees and advises the Ukranian government on education.
    I have noticed this wonderful ability to produce a friend who supports your point ,when you are being homophobic you produce unlikely gay friends and now we have this wonderful educated successful lady who is antifeminist!
    If your rather loose links to facts in previous posts is anything to go by I’m afraid we will need more proof that this friend exists (remember the “hundreds of Canadian pastors in jail” claim you made when debating same sex marriage and your claim that the Nazis brought abortion to western Europe, both untrue )
    I love the implication that only the strong willed and confident can resist the evils of feminisation (sounds like your calling those who disagree with you weak willed and easily led .
    But you have been asked for examples of the “the feminisation of politics” but not given any what you have done is mope about those bad people who disagree with you.
    So some facts please you make big claims but apart from waffle refuse to back up anything you claim with anything approaching a fact.

  • gendjinn

    carl marks,

    well said.

    abucs,

    we are done here, you want a debate on the merits of sexism & bigotry. There aren’t any. The end.

  • abucs

    No Gennjinn, the record clearly shows that I never asked you for a debate on sexism and bigotry.

    That was your misrepresenting of my position through name calling and false attribution.

    Congratulations, no debate on my points took place.

  • abucs

    A really bad church is one that believes it has all the answers and anyone even questioning one of its dogmas must be motivated by the very worst of motives.

    A really bad church is one that stifles debate and casts vile and evil qualities onto its critics.

    The Progressive movement is becoming a great example of a really bad church.

  • abucs

    take two:

    A really bad church is one that believes it has all the answers and anyone even questioning one of its dogmas must be motivated by the very worst of reasons.

    A really bad church is one that stifles debate and casts vile and evil qualities onto its critics.

    The Progressive movement is becoming a great example of a really bad church.

  • carl marks

    abucs
    Three posts and not a question answered! Has to be a record!
    No Gennjinn, the record clearly shows that I never asked you for a debate on sexism and bigotry.
    True you certainly did not ask for a debate, you just made a sexist and bigoted statement and expected everybody to accept it, you have failed to back up you statements in any way or answer any questions, just more irrelevant nonsense and mopery.
    So lets hear your argument, defend statements like” manufactured morality” (prove yours wasn’t manufactured) and “group mind” well that’s a hell of an insult to those who disagree with you.
    So less of the whinging and more facts.

  • David Crookes

    On the title of this thread: does Kyle Paisley deserve the public attention which he has been afforded? If so, should we be asking for an opinion on the same matter from Callum Best?

  • GEF

    Looks like Rev Brown, the new rector of Kyle’s father’s former church has jumped on the anti Islam bandwagon now and come out with a similar sermon, which would look like he supports Pastor McConnell’s & FMNI Peter Robinson.

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/preacher-at-ian-paisleys-former-church-denounces-islam-as-a-wicked-religion-30321153.html

  • carl marks

    David Crookes
    I suspect Kyle Paisley statement is more to do with the power games inside the DUP than anything else.
    The Rev David Mc Ilveen agreed with him on the William Crawley show yesterday , correct me if I’m wrong but Kyle has stayed out of NI politics for many years without ever making a statement then along come two attacking Robinson in short notice.
    As to why he gets press coverage, yep your right Calum Best is as relevant.

  • David Crookes

    Thanks, Carl, that makes sense.

  • carlota martinez

    Overly cynical, I think, Carl.

    I’m prepared to accept Kyle Paisley’s criticism of Peter Robinson at face value.

    It is true that he does not make a habit of commenting on local politics but I prefer to believe that his view of the lamentable statements of Robinson is a consequence of his having lived for many years in a multi cultural, liberal country and not here.

  • Morpheus