DUP to fight for flag, animal welfare and working with others..?

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Not much to argue with in the Slugger ratings of the PEBs to date, but I thought this latest from the DUP was an interesting attempt to focus on the locals and to flag up [Really? - Ed] some potential directions on policy.

Along with a decidedly soft launch for their ‘Belfast Manifesto’. I’d be interested in hearing what people think of it, not least given the pretty torrid time the party has had in the last few months…

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  • Charlie Sheens PR guru

    Isn’t ‘May, 76′ a DUP councillor for Pottinger in Belfast?

    A bit cheap to use an elected party rep. for an average Joe public piece telling her why she’s voting DUP.

    Are any of the other ‘ordinary folk’ DUP reps or candidates?

    Actually it might be a fun game to start “I’m voting DUP…” an then finish it with what they really mean

    “I’m voting DUP as I’d be a funny sort of DUP councillor not to.”

    If you can somehow surpass the hilarity of my sidesplitter above then let’s hear it:

    “I’m voting DUP because….”

  • Charles_Gould

    It was not a bad PEB. The DUP seem to be (?) the only party that did a PEB for the locals rather than just repeating the one on Europe.

  • Politico68

    They want to protect animals but no mention of Unionist persecution of minorities?

  • Mick Fealty

    You want to get a complaint to the Equality Commission? Or is it still 1968? ;-)

  • Morpheus

    Check out Peter Robinson in council estate no less! I bet he hasn’t set foot in one of those since his days as an estate agent.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Very slick PEB, sounds like it was driven by market research. Easy to understand, simple, clear soundbites.

  • Sp12

    Super slick, indeed.

    DUP
    Bad spides that hurt dogs….. Boooo!
    DUP
    Ignore spides that shoot girls in stomach
    DUP
    Illicition
    DUP
    Flegs

  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    CS,

    I agree–much better than the endless negative ads that one sees in American elections except for those lucky enough to have satellite TV or Netflix. I was taken by the emphasis on symbols rather than substance, something that the unionists have in common with republicans. Something that unionists also have with many American conservatives and liberals who get much more upset over attacks on revered symbols than on actual substance.

  • Politico68

    “Easy to understand, simple, clear soundbites.”

    Well in fairness, it has to be if loyalists have any chance of actually understanding it.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Pulling on my own experience producing Pop Promos and Corporate Videos , I realised that the entire point of such a broadcast is to maximise audience appeal. Just in case the DUP might feel that they should wish to draw on any Irish speaker support for votes, I have been translating the text into Irish for sub-titling, if only for innocent amusement.

    I came up with the name “Peader Mac Spideog” for our esteemed first minister, with its satisfying (and very Irish) word play on his support base in east belfast (Spideog/ Spide) but am still stumped in finding a reasonable translation for Nigel’s surname. I’ve hit on the possibility of an open word play on Dodd/Dud (“tá sé gan mhaith”), or possibly Nigel gan Maith but would value any help from other slugger posters….

  • Morpheus

    Animal Welfare eh?

    Let me get this straight, in a period where:
    * the DUP failed to prepare their electorate for a possible change in the flag flying policy at BCC,
    * the DUP opted to inflame and take advantage of the situation by – in partnership with the UUP – distributing a cowardly leaflet targeting fellow democratically elected representatives and didn’t have the stones or integrity to put their party logo on them denying all responsibility until caught red handed
    * the DUP had one of their Councillors commenting on Facebook about republican massacres
    * the DUP had one of their MLAs talking about the acceptability of burning foreign flags
    * the DUP had one of their MLAS claimed it was really nationalists who stole and threw a holy statue onto a loyalist bonfire
    * the DUP backed a proposal for £30,000 of ratepayers money to be used to create a site for Ballyduff’s 12th of July
    * the DUP leader jetted off to America before he let everyone knew that he had done yet another of his infamous u-turns regarding The Peace Centre in a letter
    * the DUP manufactured a ‘crisis’ about the OTR saga
    * the DUP tried to ban a play
    * v blocked a bid to legislate in favour of same-sex marriage in Northern Ireland even though the majority of the people are in favour of it
    * the DUP opposed gay adoption
    * the DUP opposed gay men donating blood
    * the DUP had an elected, unrepresentative member Orange Order on their ‘negotiating’ team at the Haass Proposals
    * the DUP voted against the Haass Proposals
    * the DUP embarrassed themselves and their electorate in front of Cameron, Kenny, Haass, Obama and The White House Administration
    * the DUP were in uproar over a republican parade to commemorate people who tried to blow up a town centre
    * the DUP were silent over an annual parade to commemorate people who tried to blow up a town centre
    * the DUP were silent on an annual loyalist parade to commemorate a UVF leader
    * the DUP were in uproar about a republican event in a leisure centre
    * the DUP were silent about a loyalist event in a leisure centre
    * the DUP are up to shenanigans in North Belfast in regards to social housing
    * the DUP leader said he wouldn’t meet the Pope before, you guessed it, another u-turn

    But for the love of God, what about the kittens? The whole thing smacks of a desperate attempt to say what they think the electorate wants to hear to get votes to save their seats/salaries/pensions/expenses

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Morpheus, you really need to prepare a spoof election video for broadcast!!! You need to hear all that from a similar selection of smiling, people friendly, everyman (and woman) talking heads to those the DUP(er)s have filmed.

    If you need help from someone with thirty years professional experience in the business, who does not drink coke, support Liverpool, or require endless curries……..

    But the kittens, oh the kittens…. (note that “LOOK, KITTENS” is actually the “in trade” term for any conscious attempt at misdirection in a documentary or corporate film).

  • Morpheus

    Don’t support Liverpool and don’t have Ruby Saturdays? No deal

    :)

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Hey, Morpheus, I hear that now Narendra Modi is A Great World Statesman he’s approached Peader Mac Spideog, looking to twin the BJP with the DUP. Sad how no-one talks to Lord Bannside any more.

    Offer’s still on the table…..

  • aquifer

    The DUP are a sectarian threat to the stability and security of our agreed state.

    I’d sooner intern them than elect them.

  • cynic2

    ” it has to be if loyalists have any chance of actually understanding it.”

    I cannot think that this is just shallow racism so I assume you will apply the same to SF adverts in West Belfast ………doh……fleg ……vote fleg

  • cynic2

    Morpheus

    Why complain? It’s a balanced position

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Every time I see the DUP posture on film I think of Brookborough and I’m reminded of Marx’s dictum about Napleon III and his uncle:

    “First time in tragedy, second time in farce…”

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Morph, you really should do a spoof with all you have listed.
    gorge yourself on Armando ianuchi (?) and Christopher Morris stuff beforehand and then let rip.

  • Morpheus

    Think I will leave that to LAD AG

  • SeaanUiNeill

    While I can only assume that the DUP are serious about animal welfare, and are not simply trying to attract the vote of the kind-hearted who would otherwise be repelled by the list Morpheus has so ably presented, I can only judge the rank and file members by those I live among.

    Ever since the new PPS21 “entitlement” to easy planning permission for a house on farm land occured there’s been a strong rise of DUP membership through the previously almost solidly UUP voting farming community around me. I’m certain that they are sincere supporters of the younger, more virile party and have no intention whatever of using their membership to ensure that there are no bricks in the road for their applications, espessially now that the Councils will be the “employers” of the planners. But considering the number of dead sheep I see in the fields (and roadside) as I cycle the roads, and the poor condition of those in the fields (“praying” sheep down on their knees just before they keel over) I wonder if the DUP might not start with a requirement for their policies to be practiced among their own membership before they try and gull the “townies” with such blandishments.

    Oh sorry, I’d completely forgotten that the odd MLA or councillor or two might just come in handy when DARD comes knocking at the farmhouse door.

    By the way, Morph, the offer still stands, to give them a wee bit of our celebrated “irony of the Gael…….”

  • cynic2

    SeaanUiNeill

    That sounds just like what I might have expected a 1960s UUP councillor to say about Catholics

    What goes around ………..

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I remember having the old Femanagh Mafia of the UUP being pointed out to me by family on Remembrance Day as I was growing up, with suitable pithy comments about who was scratching whose back, and for what. And of course insider gossip about their actual war records that dissolved the small group around us into fits of highly unsuitable sniggers.

    But I can only say, what I said is just what I’m noticing about my local DUPers, although I’m open to proofs that the general rank and file of the party elsewhere are sufficiently different to virtually everyone else in Norn Iron political life to be entirely dedicated to dispassionate public service without any special favour being shown to their own support base.

    And I’m not saying I could not repeat the same posting word for word about Sinn Féin were I living in Tyrone, so, as Yeats says about something other than the DUP: “Prove that I lie….”

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And, Hey! cynic2, as I said over on another posting(about GA & SF):

    “Its the standards we set for ourselves and those we support that permit us to have any right to speak of morality in public life.”

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Politico68[7.51] Watching Jeffrey Donaldson on Nolan the other night, it was instructive that after saying he was appalled that polish flags would be burning atop 11th night bonfires. Not appalled to see Irish ones there. Nolan picked a sham fight with JD before turning his guns on the SF man as if to show he was impartial but few would be fooled.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    danielsmoran

    “Watching Jeffrey Donaldson on Nolan the other night, it was instructive that after saying he was appalled that polish flags would be burning atop 11th night bonfires. Not appalled to see Irish ones there.”

    Absolutely contempt worthy.

    I honestly think some unionists don’t actually see the problem with burning the tricolour.

    Some great ‘leadership’ from the DUPers as usual…

    If flag burning is a core part of one’s culture then the culture has some serious problems.

    No doubt come the height of carnival season JD and co will be spitting feathers about the ‘intolerance and hatred’ towards Orange culture but without pointing out to the OO et al why people may have a problem with some parades.

    I dunno, maybe there should be some sort of penalty clause related to the parades commission e.g. for every disrespectful act committed by people attending ‘Orange cultural events’ in a district points could be awarded and when the points pass a threshold then the bands of that district will be subject to penalties either the next carnival season or ASAP.

    Or sumfin.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Am Ghobschacht[4.51] Unionists suffer from a common neurotic condition which could be described as a superiority complex whereby they’re outraged at insensitivities they see from ‘themmuns’. Apparently they can’t understand why marching past themmuns singing sectarian songs might be insensitive. The Nazis must have learned from orange bigots, marching through Polish towns, gloating over their ‘ownership’ of that country.

  • Morpheus

    Anyone see the video over on LAD regarding the Whitewell Metropolitan Tabernacle, the Church our First Minister attends?

    Might be worth a press release distancing himself from this I would’ve thought

    “Can I get an Amen?” Classic :)

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Danielmoran, that would perhaps be extreme (“Unionist = National Socialist”) if they did not themselves insist on occasionally flying the old disked hakenkreuz on red alongside the ubiquitous Isreali flags they always insist on flying.

    Now that’s something of an Olympic class standard of insensitive…………

  • Outsider

    Moran,

    For many within the Unionist and Protestant community the tricolour is seen as representing militant Irish Republicanism and terrorism and that is why many feel the burning of it is justified.

    Perhaps if Sinn Fein stopped misusing this flag that would be a good place to start?

  • Outsider

    SeaanUiNeill or should I say Tom ;)

    When have Unionist ever flown the swatstica?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thank you Morpheus, I was typing when you posted the link. But I relished the video (Although I’d have shot it with three cameras, one with tracking, so taht one could cut into a tightening close up of his face, to bring home his all important points, rather than the “just letting it swing” approach to camera work used. But what can you expect….. amateurs!!!! The guy really needs a Leni Riefenstahl to get his message across, not some Sunday afternoon enthusiast. But is it not really sweet how they cater for the “hearing impaired” among the congregation with the wee lady “signing” over on his right (“the right hand of…”)?

    And I now finally know why I want to convert to Islam, like Cat Stevens, although it’s sad the preacher does not seem to have realised that these “Satanists” have their own Sunni (evangeical) /Shia (Catholic) split just like real people…..

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Hiya, Outsider, (my old friend from the late sixties Colin Wilson, perhaps?) it may not have been a Unionist collection of flags but was certainly at a Loyalist encave, where I saw the NSDAP banner meself, with my own eyes, on the road to stroke city one long hot summer a few years back. But don’t take my word for it, send an email to Gerry Anderson who mentioned it, too, in a broadcast the same year.

    To give them their due, it was taken down soon, certainly by my next trip the week after. Now, about who put it up, I did not actually see it being put up, and its siting there may have been the action of evil shinners trying to discredit those brave, well informed, Loyalist supporters of the State of Israel (and the occasional flakey supporter of the Dannite origins of the DUPers on the side).

    And, hey, who is TOM?

  • Morpheus

    Never mind the camera angles Sean, I am shocked they committed it to tape at all

  • Outsider

    You remind me of a Tom I know.

    I think you also know very well that amongst the Unionist community whom you deem to be intellectually inferior there is no support for Nazism, your post was therefore mischievous and you fell victim to Godwin’s law more or less in your attempt at superiority.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Hey, Morpheus, if they’d used good enough camera angles and they’d have had us all jumping from our seats shouting “more, more!!!” I used to “sell” jaffa cakes over the telle with thirty second long ads using my old friend Victor Spinetti, hey man, I know just how these camera shots manipulate you! That video was, mercifully, so bad (technically, too) that it really must have helped to be watching with a bag over the head.

    Oh dear, Outsider, “no support for Nazism”, eh? Ho, humm….

    How you younger generation seem to forget the fads of your elders!!! I remember having a number of the ex-Anglo-German Fellowship fellow travellers from “that quarter” pointed out to me during a number of Armistice day commemorations, by an ex-service relative with a particularly black sense of humour. And even during the war itself there was rather a big sympathy lobby for the boys with the “oh so well cut uniforms” among Unionist circles that extended well beyond the well-known sympathies of Lord Londonderry. Incidentally, my uncle used to watch from the far shores of Strangford as the big flying boats brought Nazi grandees to Mountstewart for weekend house parties. And was that not some Allach porcelain I saw still on a mantelpiece on my last visit to Mountstewart?

    Did you know that one of the strongest branches of Rotha Lintorn-Orman’s “British Fascists” in the 1920s was in Kilkeel, strongly supported by staunch south Down Unionist ladies with strong ties to their Imperial heritage?

    Mind you, some among the IRA brigades in Belfast in 1937/8 started sporting slouch hats resplendent with black feathers, actual cast offs of the Italian elite Bersaglieri regiments, sent over by Glasgow Italian sympathisers. They looked, I was told, rather like the hats from old uniform of the North Irish Horse.

    So sorry, Mike Godwin, but sometimes “they” are (or were) really there and its not simply a way of closing up a discussion. And it chills that smidgen of actual Jewish blood I’ve inherited with the rest.

    And you must admit that the very public flirtations of Loyalists with the NF and Brit nats is too well known to be rehearsed again here.

    Now, regarding “the Unionist community whom you deem to be intellectually inferior,” I’m sure that many of them have rather better degrees than I, an incorrigible flâneur even at University, but I do know for a fact that many among the broad Unionist community have followed that great Bangor woman, the late Isabel Hill Elder, into those complex speculations that seek to trace the tortuous descent of the British and Ulster elect from the lost tribe of Dan, something that I confess entirely baffles me!

    And, do I not remember that a “Tom” is slang for a lady of ill repute? Are you implying…..

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Just a postscript, outsider, “post was therefore mischievous”.

    I can live with that……….

  • Outsider

    No Tom is a guy from Tempo with a very similar personality and persona to you.

    Those links between Unionism and Nazism are unsubstantiated at best and slight at worst. The true proof was in the pudding when duty called in 1939 and Unionists were not found wanting agains the great struggle.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Oh, outsider, yes they were substantiated, for anyone who was around these people, or trusted the sarcastic stories of those who were!!!!

    And a word about the last part. One of my pet gripes on Slugger is just how many “Unionist” people used the lack of conscription to duck out of fighting in “the great struggle.” Far more people, risking far more socially, volunteered from the (then) Free State, and I heard that from soldiers from here who had fought in the war. I grew up with a family who had all (my mother included) “done their bit”, and was early warned just how many people who can spout patriotism till the cows come home will, when the cards are down, will find that acting on their words is something much less appealing.

    I’m always interested as to how many of those who are out on the Armistice commemoration either fought, or are the descendants of others who fought. Can you really claim that “Unionists were not found wanting” with a staright face? As well as having the cadences of “Our Island Story” the sentence is ambivalent, stating truly that [some] “Unionists were not found wanting”, but in implying that Unionists as a totality “were not found wanting” it glosses over the fact that Unionists as a whole decided that they could best support the war effort by remaining just as far from the enemy as they might manage. Such “were not found wanting” in the wit to save their skins while the mugs went to war. And those who fought were slighted and laughed at by the smart boys when they returned (if they returned). So I really do not allow the right of anyone who was not engaged in some way to claim the war service of others as something that they may lay claim to for modern political ends, just because they were born into the same broad tradition.

    Lord Bannside for one would have been old enough to do his bit by 1943, so……..interesting. I’d love to see his war record……..

    And I have no links with an tIompú Deiseal as far as I know, although the earliest of my Scots planter line built a few castles elsewere in Fermanagh. Ruins today…..

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And please forgive me, outsider, I had no intention of implying that the Tom you knew was a lady of the night…….

  • Outsider

    So Unionist are draft dodging Nazi sympathisers – oh gee there is no point in continuing with this,

  • SeaanUiNeill

    No point whatsoever, outsider, a truly tragic record. But I did not say they all were, just the greater number. In the 1950s everyone knew who they were, (its a small country) and their presence at Armistice Day drove some to a similar level of indignation to that you now show.

    But some, my uncle’s friend Blair Mayne for one, were made of quite different fibre. But it does no-one any credit to pretend…..

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And, outsider, as I said on 18th May, further up this posting, “Prove that I lie….”

  • Outsider

    UUP mafia with no actual service?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Tiresome boy………quite a few desk jockeys as I remember…and a few self publicist evangelical hysterics such as Churchills man Monty, who, I was told almost snatched defeat out of the Jaws of the victory Auchinleck had so carefully planned at Alamien when he took over. He had a free hand to show his real talents at Arnheim, however!

    Its never as simple as just wearing a uniform…..

  • Son of Strongbow

    Is there an Irish language translation for ‘spoofer’, I’d even settle for a stab at it in Ulster Scots?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    I think the word you’re looking for, Gilbert, is “áilteor”!

    As I told “outsider” above,

    ‘Just a postscript, outsider, “post was therefore mischievous”.

    I can live with that……….’

    So yes, to my ill disguised intention to use levity in order to reconfigure the other posters perceptions of our endemic deadly conflictual bitterness using a ludic framework of reference.

    Seriously, the bulk of what I’m passing on from family is genuine army circles gossip from the time, a hearty corrective to the post-war cannonic version of things, and I’m seriously enraged (seriously!) when I find people who are not octogenarians laying open claim to their fine effort in the war, as above. My grandfather continued to be friendly with most of his fellow senior officers in the province when I was growing up, and I believed what I heard from them about “a province of selfish, grafting draft dodgers.” And I never met anyone who was not a civilian who had a good word to say about Monty or his master!

    And, I repeat “Prove that I lie….” so if you can point me to a single major figure in the DUP who can make serious claim to an ancestor’s fine war record, I may reconsider (slightly)! Some, such as Lord Bannside, are just about of an age to have even served themselves……

  • SeaanUiNeill

    And the decent from the lost tribes of Israel thing in the OO and DUP really worries me! While I, as a Neo-Jacobite, am reluctant to feel that having unusual beliefs should disqualify someone from being thought of as human, it would worry me if I knew, for example, that the person I was being asked to vote for thought that we were being brainwashed by aliens circling the earth in giant invisible spaceships….oh, I’d forgotten the Aetherius society has their foot in the door here, too!

  • Son of Strongbow

    I confess Seaan that you are my guilty pleasure here on Slugger. The arrogant condescension and overweening self regard that is weaved throughout your posts make entrancing reading. At one time I imagined them as part of some sort of performance artwork.

    However to argue that people are disqualified from speaking with authority about contemporary events because their family members did not fight in previous wars is ludicrous. The fact that you claim that right for yourself without presenting any evidence of your ‘qualifying’ relatives’ “fine war record” somewhat deflates your own point.

    A member of my own family fell in 1914 at Le Cateau fighting in an Irish regiment. His sacrifice bestows no vicarious authority on me or my views whatsoever. How would I dare to trade on his memory in such a squalid manner?

    As to “neo-Jacobites” I’m humming ‘Ye Jacobites By Name’ as I type …………….

  • Outsider

    Sean,

    Are you looking for current Unionist politicians who have military service such as Tom Elliott and Jeffrey Donaldson?

    Are you also saying people should not vote for Orangemen?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Outsider, we live in a democracy (I’m told…) so you may vote for anyone you may wish to. I remember arguing once at a party in west Cork that the National Front had as much right in a free society as anyone to express their views. Anthony Lester strongly supported me, with much more able arguments. So, as a lifelong Libertarian, I would never seek to deny a much more broadly based organisation any right to express their views or stand for election. Perhaps it might clarify matters if I state that I consider people as individuals, rather than as corporate robots. So I have many friends on every side of the argument in our own gladiatorial pit. My concern is for those rare qualities of sincerity and honesty, strangers to those most engaged in our various political “boxes.”

    Also, I did say (quite intentionally) “single major figure in the DUP”, while Tom Elliot, although rather silly at times in his language (on Irish flags for one thing) has, quite honourably, never deserted the sinking ship of his party, the UUP (unlike…), and from his eighteen-year stint in the Royal Irish, has my full permission to speak about the two world wars when he wishes.

    I’d forgotten about Jeffery Donaldson (I forget about him a lot…) and his membership of the Ulster Defence Regiment did not flag him for me as a regular, but I must think you for bringing up one single senior DUPer who has actually been under the colours, if only in a local militia. But it rather highlights the others, does it not?

    Oh, and I’ll pass your comment on to Sean when I meet him—, thank you, Seaan.

    Oh dear, SOS, a little riled, perhaps. I’m truly sorry, as I have no intention to offend, only to inform. I did not say that anyone had no right to their opinion, especially on contemporary events, simply that they had no right to claim close identity with the sacrifice of others in earlier times. This is a practical thing, as when such people as begin to claim earlier events as their property, they may go on to become similarly confused about other issues, a problem when they are in government. We already have far too many “Sons of William” who know little to nothing about that terrible civil war of the late seventeenth century that robbed us of our true line of succession by substituting as “King” the leader of the national enemy for much of the previous fifty years. And the mentions I’ve made in the past to the slaughter at Lisnagarvy in 1650, whose architect is occasionally commemorated in Ulster Scots areas is a case in point as to what strange affinities the lack of deep memory may lead people.

    I’m also not so much wishing to claim any credit for my ancestors experiences myself as to use what I’ve experienced to pass on some knowledge of a few useful counterfactuals, some of them commonplaces in my youth, about how real soldiers thought about the paper patriots. And perhaps I’ve been hoping in this that the thoughtful may cast a colder eye on their sometimes shallow enthusiasms. Needless to say this goes across the political board, as far as I’m concerned.

    And please note, “Ye Jacobites by name…” is a party song for the Whigs, not the honest complaint of “a man undone.” Art, fabrication, not factual reality.

    But please accept my sincere thanks, these points being fully considered, for your perceptive and flattering review of my postings, always a delight to meet a fan…….

  • Outsider

    Jim Shannon was in the UDR and has a general service medal.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Outsider, it’s important not to let rancour against fellow posters make you become bitterly discourteous in your replies, or the dreaded cárta buí comes into play.

    Sadly, as the history of the last five hundred years shows us, no-one will ever finally win! Its all about good-humoured debate, rather than reaching the “Final Solution to the Ulster Problem”.

    But please feel free to continue compiling a list…..

    Agus Dia dul in éineacht leat!

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    SeaanUiNeill[1.25]Well, quite. Funny how unionist political types always side with international colonists and historic oppressors as in S Africa, Middle East and Pinochet in Chile to name but a few.

  • Outsider

    Why is the running narrative always to have the Unionists as the bad guys?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Outsider

    I don’t feel particularly good about saying this on account of the number of UDR men that I have met (and who helped shape my life for the better and who have been stalked, hunted, bombed and shot) but to talk about the war record of NI and mention the UDR doesn’t really (in my experience) hold much water with ex-soldiers from other regiments.

    I’m sorry, for the stress that they put themselves through (never off duty, constant security concern, family is a ‘viable’ target or ‘collateral’ etc…) they seemingly were never highly regarded by true professionals (yes lads, I called the British army true professionals, could ye’s please just let it slide this once…?).

    If I understand correctly, Stormont were so ashamed of the number of volunteers in WWII that they considered implementing conscription.

    “In Northern Ireland, approximately 38,000 people volunteered for service in the British armed forces between 1939 and 1945 – including 7,000 women. There were in fact more volunteers from neutral Éire with approximately 43,000 men and women enlisting in the British armed forces during the war.[5] Some evidence suggests that the numbers of volunteers from Northern Ireland in the Second World War was considered disappointing by contemporary standards. In 1943, for example, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill negatively characterised Belfast youths as young fellows of the locality who loaf about with their hands in their pockets impeding recruiting and the work of the shipyard”

    http://www.qub.ac.uk/sites/irishhistorylive/IrishHistoryResources/Shortarticlesandencyclopaediaentries/Encyclopaedia/LengthyEntries/NorthernIrelandandWorldWarII/

    I take no pleasure in saying this whatsoever but I feel obliged to, I can’t let MOPEry rewrite history so I can’t let MOLEry either.

    On a lighter note, I strongly recommend this book:

    http://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Irish-marshals-Patrick-Marrinan/dp/0948868023

    It’s about the disproportionate number of top WWII army brass who are of Ulster background, quite pride swelling.

    Incidentally, Monty’s house is still (just about) standing, on the northern outskirts of Moville, Co Donegal.
    Highlight of my trip that was….

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    “Why is the running narrative always to have the Unionists as the bad guys?”

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Indeed, danielsmoran, I think its all that exposure to “Our Island Story” and its later offshoots. An exclusive diet of historical fairytales tends to make the pallet insensitive to unfamiliar flavours, see above: my Cromwell/Lisnagarvy comments. It all really began with Cromwell and his shooting of the Levellers who defied him and claimed that the Irish had the same right as they and he to self-determination…….

    Oh dear, outsider, how often do I need to tell you that its the bad guys who are the bad guys! I know some very decent liberal imaginations in the UUP (not front bench material, at least one is far too “posh”) and some similarly decent, honest people in Sinn Féin, but I assess them as individuals and ignore the sandwich boards. Few people are entirely bad or good, and going entirely by labels can have strange and sometimes tragic consequences in politics. I would have hated to be treated as the “Irish” (no matter what their politics or religion) were treated in Cromwell’s Ireland, and my smidgen of Jewish blood chills to see the shallow play made with the swastika by some “row or a ruction” Loyalists, as stated before.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Thanks, Am Ghobsmacht, for a clear and lucid statement of my point. And in that one assessment even old “turncoat” Churchill (as my very very Unionist Grandmother, who was in the group that tried to turn his car over in Belfast in 1913, used to call him) was perfectly right.

  • Outsider

    Well Seaan, it appears you win. Expressing my views has resulted in censorship, no doubt in the fullness of time you’ll wash your hands of this.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Please, please, outsider, no-one ever wins! No-one has all the answers, its called “debate”, and we all express different, sometimes contradictory opinions.

    You should continue to refine and argue the positive Unionist case, but do not attempt to defend the indefensible, for just as it is certain that some Unionists were “draft dodging Nazi sympathisers,” others were clearly not. The problem is that you lumped them all together as “Unionists.” Please do not be put off posting, I’d simply wish you to assess your own side of the debate more carefully. There is a case to be made, but with more discression…….

  • Outsider

    Why is what you’re saying acceptable but my defence is worthy of censorship from Mick?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Don’t worry Mick’s yellow carded me for a few personal remarks in the past, its a hazard of finding ones feet on Slugger. Do not let it put you off, he’s not censoring, he’s trying to guide you into debate, otherwise the posts would become just a string of insults like some of the English papers I do not post on. Think about how to make strong effective points rather than trying to simply claim “Nah, yer wrong, an’ I’m right!” And mentioning Jeffery Donaldson will always reduce people with a low humour threshold such as myself to gibbering wrecks…..

    I can only surmise that Mick does not think that I’m “playing the man”…..at least on this occasion. Usually he would give me the dreaded cárta buí for being irrelevant or inconsequential.

  • Outsider

    OK well then lets start again.

    Do you not feel NI is better off within the UK?

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Where do I begin? We are already all within Europe and will soon be simply the fodder for an all ruling Global Banking Internationale, so its entirely academic whether a Government run by Bankers based in London collects our taxes or a government controlled by bankers based in Dublin, who have all been trained at English banking houses , have some control of our lives. I remember poor old Richard Kearney asking us all to “exorcise the demon of sovereignty” in talks the year his “Postnationalist Ireland” came out. Since then “Global” has almost cleared the field…

    So for any of us with any cultural identity the issue is not which now almost irrelevant national government should claim sovereignty over us in order to run us for their financial masters, but how we may hold on to any small shards of identity we may still have retained in the storm. Frankly we’d be better off not thinking about being “better off” if we want to survive the homogenisation process of the global empire. David Crookes has posted some excellent postings about this elsewhere on Slugger. I can recommend looking at everything written under his “profile.”

    I’m, however, delighted to have been born here and to have in this some claim on one of the greatest and richest cultures of Europe, an ancient language that is as rich as Sanskrit, and a literature that may stand alongside that of Greece and Rome. I also really enjoy the younger, more gauche English culture, particularly Alexander Pope, who was almost as disillusioned about the whole political mess of his day, as I am about my own time. But I see myself as an active participant in a culture, and a loyal subject of our true king, Francis, heir to James II, rather than an abstract citizen of a modern nation state.

    I’m also afraid we are now straying so very far away from the theme of the thread that we may be trying even Micks endless patience….

  • tacapall

    “Where do I begin? We are already all within Europe and will soon be simply the fodder for an all ruling Global Banking Internationale, so its entirely academic whether a Government run by Bankers based in London collects our taxes or a government controlled by bankers based in Dublin, who have all been trained at English banking houses , have some control of our lives. I remember poor old Richard Kearney asking us all to “exorcise the demon of sovereignty” in talks the year his “Postnationalist Ireland” came out. Since then “Global” has almost cleared the field”

    Well said Seaan. There really is no escape from the reality that Bankers control and decide our destiny. Whenever it suits them for Ireland to be one country thats when it will happen regardless what the majority want. We can argue over a piece of coloured cloth and stand out in the elements for years demanding the right by birthright to roam whatever highways we choose, vote whoever we want into government but nothing will change the fact that private investors and a global elite of bankers have our politicians and our economy on a set of strings that they can manipulate whenever they please in order to keep the status quo.

    By the way Seaan I take it you frequent the Culturlann for your coffee, theres a nice local cafe in B/Mount Ave thats cheaper with great food and the same view.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Only too right Tacapall, and the internet is not the get out of jail free card for this Bankster straightjacket most people think.

    I sent a very chilling answer when SoS wrote:

    “…..ok, ok, so for some it’s always winter 1984 and the telescreen is ever present, in their minds at least if not on the wall.”

    But when Googles executive chairman, Eric Emerson Schmidt starts spouting his stuff, (and, after all, he’s in a position to know)….

    “Nous n’avons pas besoin en fait que vous tapiez tout sur votre ordinateur. Nous savons où vous êtes. Nous savons où vous avez été. Nous pouvons savoir grosso modo ce que vous pensez. Je pense en fait que la plupart des gens ne veulent pas que Google réponde à leurs questions [...] Ils veulent que Google leur dise ce qu’ils doivent faire ensuite. Si vous avez quelque chose ou fait quelque chose que vous ne voulez pas que d’autres personnes ne le sachent, peut-être que vous ne devriez pas le faire en première instance. Nous avons besoin d’une identification de service positive pour les gens. Les gouvernements vont le demander (contrôle internet dans le style chinois). Nous savons tout ce que vous faites et le gouvernement peut vous tracer, vous surveiller. Nous saurons où vous vous trouvez à 50cm près, et nous réduirons cette marge à quelques centimètres dans le futur… Votre voiture se conduira toute seule, c’est emmerdant que les voitures furent inventées avant les ordinateurs, mais vous n’êtes jamais seuls, vous ne vous ennuyez jamais, vous n’êtes jamais à cours d’idées.”

    I found this quote on:

    http://ordo-ab-chao.fr/de-bilderberg-2013-a-google-berg-pour-une-revolution-technocratique/

    Roughly translates as:

    “We do not actually need you to type anything on your computer. We know where you are. We know where you’ve been. We know pretty much what you think. I really believe that most people do not want Google to simply answer their questions……they want Google to tell them what they should do next. If you think something or do something you do not want other people to know, maybe you should not do or think it in the first place. We need to create a service that can positivly identify what people are up to. Governments will demand it, demand in effect, something to allow internet control Chinese style. We will know all that you do, so the government can trace you, observe you. We already know where you are close to 50cm, and we will reduce the margin to a few centimeters in the future … Your car will control its own actions, that its taking time is just due to cars being invented before computers , but you’ll never be alone you will never get bored , you’ll never run short of ideas.”

    Yeah, sure, its hype, but a hype that he and his clients aspire to. And that’s not me and Kevsterino getting all paranoid, its him trying to get us paranoid with the sales pitch. And while its quite a different theme to how one accesses trails of wrongdoing in public life to ensure accountability, it suggests to me that no one sane should rely on the internet to bring anything important to light that others may pay to keep hidden, if the internet is actually not “owned and controlled” by geeky altruists, but by business men who milk it to access something they can sell on, or limit access to, for real money.

    Thats my own translation, but its pretty literal.

    on another tack, I’m round Beechmount area a lot just now, so I may look the wee local place. I’m contributing something to this at the moment:

    http://www.forbairtfeirste.com/forbairt-news/ceiliuradh-na-noglach-celebrating-the-volunteers/

    I had an ancestor in the Second Company at St Mary’s that day. More generous times…….

  • tacapall

    Thanks for the reply Seaan I hear ya regards Google but no-one can deny the internet opened the gates to a mountain of evidence concerning history that would otherwise have been overlooked or hidden. We are now in an age where history is recorded in real time with on the spot video and audio evidence. Im not foolish enough to believe video evidence and events cannot be manipulated but it sure as hell is more accurate than hearsay and folklore, of course the content we can all access on the internet will in the not too distant future be regulated and censored to the point that history like the reasons behind the invasion of Iraq will be fabricated to suit the bankers agenda.

    Fair play Seaan that St Marys commemoration sounds like a good day out I might just go myself maybe I’ll have a coffee with you.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    It’d be good to see you there. I put the piece by Eric Emerson Schmidt and my translation up because it shows just what the motives of the people running these big internet players is. And yes, its good so much is available that was hard to get before, but Schmidt’s clear intention really creeps me out.

    Almost as much as the DUP “we are nice guys who care about our voters” promo the thread started with does!!!!!!!

  • Morpheus

    Anyone heard as much as a whimper from anyone other than Martin McGuinness regarding the disgusting comments from the supposed ‘man of God’?

    Hopefully it will be deemed important enough for a thread so we can discuss it

  • Delphin

    The BBC report his remarks are being investigated by the PSNI.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27501839
    I don’t think there is too much to discuss – his expressed views are those of a fascist.
    In fairness to the DUP, Diane Dodds spoke out unequivocally against racism in the election debate on Tuesday night. It’s a pity this leadership is not reinforced by the Pastor.

  • Neil

    He was on Radio Ulster on Nolan. I’d recommend it. He went somewhat further this morning.

  • SeaanUiNeill

    Morpheus, I agree. I’m a libertarian and remember supporting Anthony Lester on complete freedom of speech at a long afternoon party in west Cork as the conversation turned (as it does) serious, but for someone such as this fellow to be permitted to speak publically, it is utterly necessary that the case against him is very fully aired.

    He will loose the arguement, hands down, but if there is no arguement presented…….

  • Morpheus

    Delphin, I didn’t really mean we should rehash what he said over and over again – he said what he said and it is online for all to see – but I thought it might be useful for us to talk about the wider implications for Northern Ireland of having people with these sorts of views in positions of power, if these views are shared by the politicians who attend this Church for spiritual guidance, just how representative these views are across Northern ireland etc. Nolan said he was inundated with support for the Pastor so it doesn’t appear to restricted to just a few so how representative is it?

    Diane Dodds deserves a pat on the back for what she said about racism but I want to hear her and, more importantly, the elected representatives who attend this Church coming out to publicly distance themselves from the Pastor’s comments so we can be assured that they do not share the same views…’silence gives consent’ and all that

  • Delphin

    Morpheus, I had visions of a post like we had after some of Pootsie’s utterances where we all lined up to condemn him – a bit pointless, although strangely satisfying.
    You are right – people that worship in that church and who are in government need to be questioned about their support or otherwise for the pastor’s sentiments.
    I think this all needs to be seen in the context of the rise of populist political parties – people like Adams and Farage appear Teflon coated because they have unquestioning support of the people they represent, Robinson on the other hand was damaged by the ‘sliver of land ‘ and the lock keeper’s cottage.