Sinn Féin: “What happened was done with British cabinet approval…”

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A few days ago on Eamonn Maillie’s blog, Brian Rowan gravely informed us that, rather than the wild paranoid ramblings of a party desperate to distract attention from their threat to “review” their support for policing if the Sinn Féin president, Gerry Adams, was charged as a result of the investigation into the abduction, murder and secret burial of Jean McConville in 1972,  Sinn Féin’s latest outburst is evidence that “we’re not out of the political woods just yet.

The source of his concern is this Belfast Telegraph article by the formerly little known placeman, Sinn Féin chairman, Declan Kearney.  The conspiracy theory was first aired in a BBC interview with the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister, Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness.  In between his ill-timed jabs at the DUP and the Conservative Party, and others, and claims that his comments about reviewing support for policing had been misrepresented, the BBC report noted

The deputy first minister said the fact that the police had told Ms Villiers in advance about Mr Adams’ arrest but not him, was a clear example of the PSNI showing political preference towards the British state rather than the devolved government.

Gerry Adams has been briefing some journalists along the same lines, telling Niall O’Dowd’s Irish Central website

“People know well what this was about,” he said. “It was politically motivated.”

He pointed out that British Northern Secretary Theresa Villiers has now admitted that she had known beforehand that he was going to be arrested.

The Sinn Féin chairman, Declan Kearney, went further

What happened was done with British cabinet approval. Theresa Villiers knew over two days beforehand. Others will also have known.

The basis for this latest conspiracy theory are the comments from the Northern Ireland Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, to the BBC on 2 May.

[Theresa Villiers] “I was told on Monday that it was expected that Gerry Adams would be questioned in relation to the McConville case.  I was told by one of my officials who had been informed by a member of the PSNI.  I noted it and obviously started to think through the potential consequences.” [added emphasis]

Just to be clear, on the same day that the PSNI contacted Gerry Adams’ solicitor to agree when he would be questioned, the NIO were also told that he was expected to be questioned.  The NI Secretary of State was informed, noted it, and “started to think through the potential consequences”.

Given Sinn Féin’s subsequent reaction, and the NI Secretary of State’s continued role in some aspects of policing here, that would seem to have been an entirely prudent move.  I’d also fully expect the same information to be passed on to the NI Secretary of State if any leader of a significant political party here was being questioned as part of a murder investigation – historical or not.

As for “British cabinet approval”, the alternative would be for the PSNI to have been told that they couldn’t question Gerry Adams – which would have been political interference in an on-going police investigation.

But if Martin McGuinness is still feeling left out at not being informed on the Monday, he should ask his party president “Why not?”

[Is the bunny back in the box? - Ed]  For now…

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  • Charles_Gould

    The phrase “you can fool some of the people some of the time” springs to mind.

  • Robbo47

    Central government delegations rightly exclude issues which are novel and contentious, PSNI would be required to give advance warning to the political chain of command before the arrest of a party leader. SofS NIO would, in response to the news, consider the government’s line to take and supplementary questions which might be raised. This I believe is the background to Theresa Villiers’s comments.
    In short there is no evidence here of British government interference in this very important criminal investigation.

  • aquifer

    The UK has the brief for state security and anti-terrorism, so it was quite proper that Teresa Villiers should be told in order to consider political and any other reactions or over-reactions.

    Conspiracy?

    Sinn Fein are seriously self-important.

    That much is clear.

  • carlota martinez

    CG. ‘The phrase ” you can fool some of the people some of the time’ springs to mind’

    The phrase “utterly inane comment” seems appropriate.

  • WhatWasThat13

    And it gets even more complicated when we consider that… The sudden about-face with regard to PSNI’s willingness to arrest Adams in the face of many years of accusations and ample first-hand evidence provided by prominent Republicans came literally 2 days after First Minister and DUP leader, Peter Robinson’s widely publicized statement that if enough evidence exists Martin McGuinness should be tried before a court.

    (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/peter-robinson-says-martin-mcguinness-should-be-tried-before-a-court-if-evidence-exists-over-ira-involvement-30224943.html, http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/martin-mcguinness-claims-old-peter-robinson-30225738.html, & http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/try-mcguinness-if-evidence-exists-30224898.html)

    Mr. Robinson went on to say: “I have consistently indicated that I believe that there are certain people who have been left alone because of their involvement with the political process, that the government did not want to be disturbed….No one should be less amenable because of their political involvement.” How is that for clairvoyance on Robinson’s part? As clairvoyance doesn’t actually exist, we are left with at least four possibilities;

    a) Like Theresa Villiers he knew in advance (and the PSNI would have to have been involved in this at some level) that a prominent Republican (he may even have known it was Adams and used McGuinness’ name as a smoke screen) was about to be arrested and wanted to offer the DUP an opportunity to ride the wave of “being in the right” during election season which finds Unionist allegiances deeply fractured or;

    b) His comments triggered a direct reaction on the part of PSNI to make the arrest, when previously they had ignored an abundance of opportunities and readily available evidence, who then subsequently informed Theresa Villiers;

    c) Someone in PSNI didn’t keep their lips zipped with regard to an ongoing investigation and somehow the info was leaked to certain members of the devolved government (but not McGuinness because as far as he and Adams knew, until immediately prior to the arrest, he was going to voluntarily meet PSNI) before even Theresa Villiers knew herself. Perhaps it was information relayed through PSNI via government representatives in the Republic of Ireland? We will likely never know. This is the real cause for concern because, apart from being the most realistic scenario, if it is indeed the case, it demonstrates an extreme lack of professional behavior on the part of at least one PSNI officer(s) and is cause for investigation. As Adams has submitted an official complaint to the ombudsman, we can only wait and see what is turned up and whether this possibility is even looked at.

    d) This was all just a very happy coincidence for the Robinson and the DUP on the run up to elections.
    Following the arrest, Robinson continued his remarkably well-timed train of thought and went on to praise PSNI for the move. “It strengthens our political process in Northern Ireland for people to know that no one is above the law, everyone is equal under the law, and everyone is equally subject to the law.”

    Funny, that is almost the same thing he ‘just happened’ to say just a couple days before the arrest…

  • Charles_Gould

    CM: you are entitled to your view. My comment – as you will appreciate points to the rather blatant level of dissimulation suggested in the OP.

  • Count Eric Bisto von Granules

    The ‘debate’ around Adams arrest is unionists convincing themselves that it was merely due process of independent policing and judicial systems sans political interference.

    However, if a senior politician in europe (eastern or western) was held for questioning for 3 days 3 weeks prior to a major election, the assumption would be that the government in place had given tacit approval if not directly orchestrated it.

    This would be our view if it happened elsewhere and it is the prevailing view elsewhere of what happened here.

  • Mark

    Surely SF’s ” little known placeman ” ( as Pete puts it ) would rather of said MI5s’ approval but that would open up a bigger can of worms than blaming the current Tory party . Governments come and go , it was the security services who decided to arrest Adams .

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “The NI Secretary of State was informed, noted it, and “started to think through the potential consequences”.”

    Was Eamon Gilmore informed too?

  • Mark

    I’d say all three Governments ( can’t forget our friends / allies accross the water ) knew at some level . You’d never know Nevin , Eamon’s former comrades could be sitting in his chair come the next GE down South ….

  • Dixie Elliott

    Problem being why are they only going after Adams now when they had high level informers who could have done the job in the 1980s?

  • Dixie Elliott

    I think what does come out of this is just how many Republicans have walked away from the shinners across the North.

    I myself was shocked at the low turn out, a few hundred, at the Adams mural unveiling but the so called Devenish rally told the tale in that leading shinners had to lie to their own as to the actual numbers which attended…

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/breen/arts2014/may11_Sinn%20Fein_caught_out_making_up_the_numbers___SBreen_Sunday-Life.php

  • Mark

    That would mean one of the informers turning states evidence / going supergrass on Adams back then . Maybe they saw him as someone they could work with . That’s of course if he was a Provo at all ……

  • Morpheus

    You base your assumption that Republicans have walked away from SF based on a mural? Hmmmmm…

    Maybe the election results will tell us more

  • Comrade Stalin

    PSNI would be required to give advance warning to the political chain of command before the arrest of a party leader

    More accurately, since the arrest was under the Terrorism Act (2000), and counter-terrorism is not a devolved matter, the relevant Minister (in this case the Secretary of State) was informed.

    WhatWasThat13,

    I think you’re getting ahead of yourself.

    The arrests come in the context of the Boston College tapes being revealed. Robinson’s comments come in that context.

    but not McGuinness because as far as he and Adams knew, until immediately prior to the arrest, he was going to voluntarily meet PSNI

    Of course, the source for the claim that Gerry Adams did not know he was going to be arrested is .. Gerry Adams. The same guy who says he was never in the IRA. We don’t know whether or not the PSNI warned his solicitor that he could be arrested. And if they did not, it seems even more unlikely that his solicitor would not have warned him of their arrest powers under Article 82 of the Terrorism Act (2000).

    This was all just a very happy coincidence for the Robinson and the DUP on the run up to elections.

    Gerry Adams being released without charge could be equally seen to lend credibility to the school of thought within some parts of Unionism that the Shinners control the police and the British will do anything to appease them. Both unionists and nationalists can spin a conspiracy to suit whatever story they like.

  • megatron

    As pointed out above if this happened in any other country everyone here would cry foul. That doesn’t mean anything untoward has happened but I wouldn’t necessarily call it paranoia when an leader of a political party cries foul. I imagine (for example) Nigel Farage would say the exact same.

    Pete dishonestly (with typical commentary from the mysterious Ed) tries to equate what SF knew with what Villiers knew. He conviently forgets that SF didn’t know he was being arrested. The government(s) obviously knew this. That certainly doesn’t mean there was a conspiracy but give me a break with the “this was a purely operational matter” bullshit.

  • megatron

    PS good article by Brian Rowan

  • WhatWasThat13

    Comrade Stalin,

    You said, “The arrests come in the context of the Boston College tapes being revealed. Robinson’s comments come in that context.”

    These tapes have been in PSNI possession since last year and in fact some of them including at least the one by Dolours Price (supposedly key to the recent arrest) and Richard O’Rawe do not contain any evidence whatsoever about the Jean McConville case. See the following quote from,

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/01/24/death-of-dolours-price-opens-up-possibility-that-her-taped-oral-history-will-be-published/

    “According to an affidavit made by Ed Moloney, unlike Dolours Price’s more recent media comments, the Belfast Project interviews will not shed light on Jean McConville’s disappearance.
    “… in her interviews with BC researcher, Anthony McIntyre, Dolours Price did not once mention the name “Jean McConville”. The subject of that unfortunate woman’s disappearance was never mentioned, not even once. Nor so were the allegations that Dolours Price was involved in any other disappearance carried out by the IRA in Belfast, nor that she received orders to disappear people from Gerry Adams or from any other IRA figure. None of this subject matter was disclosed in her taped interviews with Anthony McIntyre.” ”

    It also begs the question, why on earth did they wait until she was dead to use tapes that supposedly contained info about the murder as opposed to acting on her very public accusations while she was still a living witness?

    You said, “Of course, the source for the claim that Gerry Adams did not know he was going to be arrested is .. Gerry Adams.”

    The fact that he willing offered to meet with PSNI had been public knowledge for at least a month prior to Adam’s actual arrest and the fact is he walked into the office a free man. If they had any evidence at all or if they thought he would not willing appear they could have easily arrested him elsewhere.

    Lastly, you said, “Both unionists and nationalists can spin a conspiracy to suit whatever story they like.”

    Let’s see what the Ombudsmen concludes. I’m still betting on loose lips among PSNI as a theory.

  • WhatWasThat13

    For further reference that the tapes are a poor excuse for “evidence” against Adams see, http://thepensivequill.am/2012/09/ed-moloney-press-statement-dolours.html

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    There have been a number of people arrested very recently as well as Adams in connection with the murder of Mrs. McConville. It is fair enough to ask “Why now?” after all this time. The obvious answer must be that the PSNI must have got some new information. We will likely see what that is when court cases commence. Anything else, specific guesses, is just speculation.

  • summerhill

    Dixie,

    May 24th when the votes are counted will tell whether your comments are relevant or redundant

  • http://www.thedissenter.co.uk thedissenter

    But Gerry knew he was going to be arrested before he entered the police station – a matter or where not if http://leargas.blogspot.co.uk/ and he clearly didn’t bother to give heads up to the comrades.

  • Son of Strongbow

    Scene: an office at Spook Central, Loughside, Belfast.

    Spook 1 ‘…. we should arrest Target Number One right now’

    Spook 2 ‘ great idea. Playing on every Brit stereotype and paranoid delusion in nationalism should really pay dividends come election time. The voters will be running from the Shinners in droves and the world as we know it will be saved.’

    Spook 1 ‘ give Agent Matt a call and tell him to get his folks on the job, and feed Agent Peter his script. We’re onto a winner with this one.’

  • Comrade Stalin

    megatron,

    As pointed out above if this happened in any other country everyone here would cry foul.

    I’m trying to think of what other Western democracies have leading politicians who have been widely named as being commanders of well-organized paramilitary organizations, but I seem to be coming up a blank.

    Also other countries have prosecuted senior political leaders. Silvio Berlusconi springs to mind.

    That doesn’t mean anything untoward has happened but I wouldn’t necessarily call it paranoia when an leader of a political party cries foul.

    You don’t think senior IRA figures should expect that, having failed to negotiate an amnesty, that they may be subject to prosecution ? Isn’t that why they went to the trouble of obtaining the “comfort letters” ?

    WhatWasThat13:

    These tapes have been in PSNI possession since last year

    If your point is going to be “why did it take so long” perhaps you can give your own estimate of how long you think the PSNI should have taken to analyze, cross reference and corroborate the tapes given the resources they have; and can you explain to us what expert background you have that qualifies you to provide such an estimate ?

    and in fact some of them including at least the one by Dolours Price (supposedly key to the recent arrest) and Richard O’Rawe do not contain any evidence whatsoever about the Jean McConville case.

    What exactly has that got to do with anything ? I’m aware of the legal case being taken by O’Rawe, which is a matter between him and the judge who reviewed the tapes to select which ones would be sent to the PSNI – but I don’t see what that has to do with the question around the timing of Adams’ arrest ?

    It also begs the question, why on earth did they wait until she was dead to use tapes that supposedly contained info about the murder as opposed to acting on her very public accusations while she was still a living witness?

    Who says they waited until she was dead; who says that her death did not occur before the PSNI had a chance to assemble the case to question her ? Weren’t there allegations – I don’t know if they were malicious or not – going around about Price’s mental state ? Wasn’t she in Dublin, which would have necessitated extradition proceedings (complex) ?

    The fact that he willing offered to meet with PSNI had been public knowledge for at least a month prior to Adam’s actual arrest

    So what ? Gerry Adams does not dictate the pace or timing of police investigations.

    and the fact is he walked into the office a free man.

    Who isn’t a free man immediately prior to their arrest ? What exactly does that prove ?

    If they had any evidence at all or if they thought he would not willing appear they could have easily arrested him elsewhere.

    How exactly do you think the scenario where an arrest warrant was issued against Gerry Adams would have played out ?

    Don’t you think it’s possible that the PSNI phoned Gerry’s solicitor and told him that Gerry had the choice of presenting himself at Antrim or a warrant would be issued for his arrest ? This would all be perfectly routine.

    Let’s see what the Ombudsmen concludes. I’m still betting on loose lips among PSNI as a theory.

    If the Ombudsman concludes that there was nothing at all untoward about this matter will you accept it ?

  • Raymonds Back

    Comrade Stalin: most western democracies were created a long time ago. The two on this island are less than a hundred years old and, at their establishment or very shortly afterwards, had very few leading politicians who were not leaders of well-organised paramilitary organisations.
    On another general point, I still fail to see what purpose charging – or indeed convicting – Gerry Adams of membership of an organisation which no longer exists serves. And would welcome a reply.

  • Dixie Elliott

    I notice that several shinners gave the standard reply ‘watch the election results’…

    I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve stated that the Adamsite Cult will continue to do well because the people fear that should they not vote for them they might return to the bad old days…thats the reason for the McGuinness/ Raging Bull Storey stunt. Putting that fear in them.

    And theres the ingrained sectarian mentality which they can count on.

    That only means they became the SDLP….The difference being that no one died following Hume and so far theres been no large scale covering up of paedophiles and rapists in the SDLP.

    That vote was always there and it’s now in the hands of former Republicans going by the name of SF…

    In fact I could safely say they are now as close to Loyalism as they are as far away from Republicanism.

    Sure didn’t people even vote for the likes of Michael McDowell, Mary Harney, Garret Fitzgerald and even Austin Curry? Adams could slide into their company anytime.

  • Morpheus

    Dixie

    From
    “I think what does come out of this is just how many Republicans have walked away from the shinners across the North”
    to
    “I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve stated that the Adamsite Cult will continue to do well…”
    in the space of a single post, that has to be some sort of record. With a U-turn like that you simply have to be a DUPer – or should I say DUPed.

    You are right though. A love of their economic policies isn’t ehy people vote SF, it is fear that pushes them but not a fear of “they might return to the bad old day” – that is just drivel – but a fear of what will happen if political unionism get their grubby hands on all the levers of power in Northern Ireland. And that fear is completely justified when you look at the shenanigans going on in North Belfast with Deputy Dawd and he-who-creeps-the-bejesus-outta-everyone in regards to social housing and their efforts to protect their personal fiefdoms…another one of those stories which slips though the cracks when all the attention is on Gerry Adams. The Detail have yet again gone above and beyond in their investigative journalism, FOIs and everything:

    http://www.thedetail.tv/issues/316/mccausland-dsd-nihe-story/documents-reveal-dup-lobbying-over-north-belfast-housing-and-allegations-of-gerrymandering

    For reference, the most I get from the Shinners is the occasional party flyer – hardly “putting the fear in them” wouldn’t you agree?

    And your post got a thumbs up – bless :)

  • Scáth Shéamais

    You are right though. A love of their economic policies isn’t ehy people vote SF, it is fear that pushes them but not a fear of “they might return to the bad old day” – that is just drivel

    Since Adams’ arrest SF haven’t stopped calling it an attack on the peace process, and how it needs to be defended. Just a few days ago Adams was talking about how his arrest “brought into sharp focus the attention of the wider nationalist, republican population as regards the importance of this peace process”. So they really are playing that card.

    And that fear is completely justified when you look at the shenanigans going on in North Belfast with Deputy Dawd and he-who-creeps-the-bejesus-outta-everyone in regards to social housing and their efforts to protect their personal fiefdoms…

    That’s rich considering the dirty deal made between the DUP and Sinn Féin over Girdwood.

  • summerhill

    Dixie,

    Your rationale, such as it is, of the potential of more people voting for Sinn Fein as a result of ‘Putting the fear in them’ and ‘ingrained sectarian mentality’ surely does not apply here in the South? If, as expected, Sinn Féin make progress in the South, what do you think the reasons are for this? I am prepared to wait until the 24th May.

  • DoppiaVu

    SoS

    Thanks for a rare bit of common sense in amongst the tin-hattery.

    The fact that they arrested him, then released him without charge well in advance of the elections, thus creating for him a public platform (an international one at that) to trot out the usual guff hardly points to a well-planned smear attempt.

  • Morpheus

    Scáth Shéamais

    Of course they are ‘playing the card’ – when the hysteria settles it will be obvious that GA had questions to answer and wanted to get this particular monkey off his back so volunteered to meet the PSNI knowing full well that he would be arrested. Martin McGuinness used the opportunity to put on a little show for the ‘old guard’ to show that SF recognizes that the ‘dark side’ of policing hasn’t completely gone away y’know.

    (Uuuurgh, I can’t believe I just typed that – any phrase which ends in ‘…gone away y’know’ should be banned as a crime against journalism)

    “That’s rich considering the dirty deal made between the DUP and Sinn Féin over Girdwood.”

    What’s your understanding of the most recent dirty deal regarding Girdwood SS? There are so many to choose from. The most recent I heard was that the DUPers offered to support The Peace Centre if the Shinners promised not to push too hard for social housing in North Belfast flooding the area with people who would not vote for Deputy Dawd or he-who-creeps-the-bejusus-outta-everyone. A deal the DUPers obviously relinquished on and now plan to build a leisure centre on the site instead even though there are 3 or 4 in the immediate vicinity. I mean, if you can’t trust a DUPer….

  • FuturePhysicist

    Do Sinn Féin care about more individuals than Gerry Adams and Paul Kavanagh? I don’t see these are electoral issues for the common man, rather than Sinn Féin’s upper classes.

  • Comrade Stalin

    raymond:

    Comrade Stalin: most western democracies were created a long time ago. The two on this island are less than a hundred years old and, at their establishment or very shortly afterwards, had very few leading politicians who were not leaders of well-organised paramilitary organisations.

    The rough guys you’re talking about went on to actually found new countries. Gerry Adams and his contemporaries haven’t done that. It’s a stretch to credit them alone with the minor constitutional tweaks that we did get in 1998, especially given that they were a revised version of the tweaks they rejected in 1972 and 1974.

    On another general point, I still fail to see what purpose charging – or indeed convicting – Gerry Adams of membership of an organisation which no longer exists serves. And would welcome a reply.

    Something to do with upholding the rule of law and pursuing those who committed crimes, which is the statutory responsibility of the police. Or somesuch equally daft concept.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Morpheus said….

    “Dixie
    From
    “I think what does come out of this is just how many Republicans have walked away from the shinners across the North”
    to
    “I’ve lost count the number of times I’ve stated that the Adamsite Cult will continue to do well…”

    in the space of a single post, that has to be some sort of record. With a U-turn like that you simply have to be a DUPer – or should I say DUPed.”

    Thats nonsense and you know what I was referring to. Republicans have walked away in large numbers to be replaced by political opportunists like Mary Lou etc…

    When I say that Adamsites will do well I mean that those voting for them aren’t doing so because they are Republican but because of the same fear which the SDLP fed on for decades.

    Then you add…

    “but a fear of what will happen if political unionism get their grubby hands on all the levers of power in Northern Ireland.”

    But they have all the political power they want. The Adamsites can’t even get an Irish Language Act, a Peace Center or even the HAASS Proposals off the ground.

    They have to do as they are told or face monetary punishments from Westminster so in effect the only power in Stormont is keeping the place lit at night.

  • Dixie Elliott

    summerhill….

    In regards to Adamsism South of the border I think it’s clear that they are rising on the Southern Electorate’s desire to punish the established parties. I also hope they get to form a coalition government soon because it won’t take the electorate down there long to realise that they’ve bitten of their noses to spite their faces.

    And come the following election the Adamsites will go the way of the PDs, the Green Party and other government hangers on….

    Back to 2007.

  • Mark

    Dixie ,

    Are you saying Mary Lou isn’t a Republican ? SF are a political party now and make no bones about that fact . Every party needs ” opportunists ” . She’s alright ……

  • Dixie Elliott

    Meanwhile the Cult leader hits the news again…

    Brother’s sex abuse case comes back to haunt Gerry Adams

    Exclusive: Police ‘tipped off’ Sinn Fein leader about case before trial….

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/brothers-sex-abuse-case-comes-back-to-haunt-gerry-adams-30272460.html

  • Dixie Elliott

    A few years back she was doorstepped about how Keiran Nugnet had died and she turned to those beside her and asked who Keiran Nugnet was…

    Besides that what Republican party makes a habit of meeting the British Queen? Even The Welsh Nationalist Party Plaid Cymru refuses to attend royal functions….

  • Mark

    Well I agree , she should have known who Keiran Nugent was and how he died . It was a tragedy and should never have happened .

    Who doorstepped her by the way ? ….. just curious .

  • Mark

    Dixie ,

    For a minute I thought when you said she was ” doorstepped ” you meant someone collared her coming out of an office / home . You probably meant she was canvassing with party members and a resident asked her about Keiran .

    But she can’t be expected to know everything about prominent volunteers at the drop of a hat .

  • summerhill

    Dixie,

    It remains to be seen how well Sinn Féin will do in the election after this one…due in / before 2016? In the meantime I will wait until the 24th May 2014 when the votes are counted in this election. Sinn Féin have said that they will keep every election pledge they make. If they do not keep these pledges, then people will not vote for them. However in the North there is no Water Charge because of Sinn Fein and so far Sin Féin have also stopped the implementation of the British Welfare Reform Bill ( despite threats of dire consequences, financial penalties and so on).

  • mac tire

    Dixie – a so called Republican whose only politics is to attack Republicans.
    He alone can dictate who a Republican is. With a swish of his mighty hand Mary Lou is fecked. Many others are de-Republicanised by his word alone. Look out – you may be next.

    A strange type of creature since Sinn Féin and Adamsites, it seems, are all he can utter. Unable to understand that, in the real world, there are many who vote (and criticize) SF.

    Ach, you know the type of poster I’m on about. Those who never have alternatives – just rhetoric. A bit like that man Gerry Adams.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Stalin

    ‘I’m trying to think of what other Western democracies have leading politicians who have been widely named as being commanders of well-organized paramilitary organizations, but I seem to be coming up a blank.’

    Really? Completely blank?

    … George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Theodore Roosevelt, Emiliano Zapata, Simon Bolivar, David Ben Gurion, Menechim Begin, Ariel Sharon, Nelson Mandela, George H.W. Bush, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Raul Castro, Eamon DeValera, James Craig, Edward Carson, Michael Collins, Sean Lemass, Frank Aiken, Risteard Mulcahy, Andrew Bonar Law, Lord (Mark) Thatcher, Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness….

    And that’s just off the top of my head.

  • Dixie Elliott

    mac tire

    “Dixie – a so called Republican whose only politics is to attack Republicans.”

    I don’t attack Republicans mt I attack those claiming to be Republicans who see no problem toasting the British Queen and who protect rapists and paedophiles. I attack those who have become the most powerful propaganda weapon the British ever had throughout the history of Irish Republicanism.

    You can throw up all the nonsense you want about winning elections North or South but the fact is Fianna Fail and Fine Gael have been winning elections since the early days of the Free State. Do you honestly think the Adamsites are going to walk in and change things?

    Hume, Fitt and the likes of Austin Curry were pulling in massive votes since McGuinness was speaking on the TV on behalf of the IRA in 1972 – twice too as I remember – strangely enough, something he was never charged with. Then McGuinness decided Hume was right after all….too late for countless people who died.

    Winning elections doesn’t make you a Republican anymore than it makes those who vote for you Republicans.

  • Raymonds Back

    Comrade Stalin: Re your answer below – if that is the case, then why are the police not pursuing, arresting and charging all those people who are members of a CURRENTLY active paramilitary group – ie the UDA leaders we hear so much about?

    On another general point, I still fail to see what purpose charging – or indeed convicting – Gerry Adams of membership of an organisation which no longer exists serves. And would welcome a reply.

    Something to do with upholding the rule of law and pursuing those who committed crimes, which is the statutory responsibility of the police. Or some such equally daft concept.

  • cynic2

    Poor Declan

    One minute SF complain that the PM hasn’t met the Great Bearded oNe and then they complain that he is conspiring in Cabinet to have his arrested.

    The truth is two fold

    First that the UK is a democracy and that Cabinets in a democracy don’t do that. I know that concept is hard for SF but there are lots of books out there wilkl help them learn about the concept

    Second, they wouldn’t bother doing it because, from a Global UK Perspective, SF are well down the priority and food chain. The truth is Gerry doesn’t really matter to the Cabinet anymore

    All this whinging sounds of desperation

  • cynic2

    Billy

    Hugo Chavez ? A democrat? He was elected but so was Hitler – whom you left off your list too

  • cynic2

    Why shouldn’t they toast Liz? She pays their wages and funds SF.

    The worst thing financially that could happen to SF is a United Ireland!!! All that money stopped.

  • mac tire

    Dixie, type away all you want. The end product is always, always the same – attacking other Irish men and women because you see them as less Republican than yourself.

    Good man, keep it up. I’m sure it is contributing to the removal of partition. Just another few sentences now and beidh saoirse againn.

    Dixie, it just gets monotonous.

    “anymore than it makes those who vote for you Republicans.”

    There you go again determining who can be an Irish Republican in your world. Yip, I generally vote Sinn Féin (though gave 1st choice to an independent Republican last time out).

    Do I need to send my application form to be a Republican to MI5 or to you, Dixie?

    Tell you what. I’ll send it to you since you are doing the former’s job anyway.

  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    ” George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton, Andrew Jackson, Zachary Taylor, Theodore Roosevelt, Emiliano Zapata, Simon Bolivar, David Ben Gurion, Menechim Begin, Ariel Sharon, Nelson Mandela, George H.W. Bush, Hugo Chavez, Fidel Castro, Raul Castro, Eamon DeValera, James Craig, Edward Carson, Michael Collins, Sean Lemass, Frank Aiken, Risteard Mulcahy, Andrew Bonar Law, Lord (Mark) Thatcher, Ian Paisley, Peter Robinson, Martin McGuinness….”

    @Billy,

    First, I think you need to review both basic grammar and history.. Have is in the present tense, had is in the past tense. All of the Americans you mentioned are from one to two centuries ago (except for George H W Bush who served a mere seven decades ago) and were connected to a MILITARY group, not a PARAMILITARY group–particularly a terrorist paramilitary, which is what the term as used in Northern Ireland really means. The same is true for Simon Bolivar. Hugo Chavez also served in a regular military. David Ben-Gurion’s last military service was in WWI–he was prime minister and defense minister during the Israeli War of Independence. Ariel Sharon served in the prestate Hagana, but only saw combat in the regular Israeli army.

    “I’m trying to think of what other Western democracies have leading politicians.”

    Cuba isn’t normally considered to be a Western democracy–according to the Castro brothers not Western, and according to the West not a democracy.

    So you seem to be left with NI (which isn’t other), Menahem Begin in Israel, the Republic of Ireland, and Britain. Which paramilitary organizations did Mark Thatcher or Andrew Bonar Law belong to?

    “And that’s just off the top of my head.”

    Next time you TRY thinking you should use the rest of your head–it works better.

  • Dixie Elliott

    mac tire I doubt you’ll put your name on it anyway as most online Adamsites like to stay undercover. Can’t say I blame them given that Adams has managed to turn the party inside out.

    Somebody made the amusing claim above that they were keeping political Unionism in check…

    Clearly not, if anything political Unionism is amusing itself with the Shinners and I thought Pat Sheenan was amusing last night as he squirmed like someone who needed the loo after Nolan put pressure on him to apologise to Peter Robinson and poor Pat just couldn’t bring himself to do it.

    Mike Nesbitt amusing himself with the Party Chairperson was another example. I thought Declan would have ended up being in charge of seating arrangements at SF meetings rather than an actual chairperson after that debacle…

  • Morpheus

    “political Unionism is amusing itself with the Shinners “

    Hahahaha, is that what you call it? Running from ‘crisis’ to ‘crisis’ is their idea of amusement is it?

    What is amusing is that the three examples you use of political unionism’s perceived dominance – blocking the Irish Language Act, blocking the Peace Center and blocking the Haass Proposals – are not examples of anything to be proud of. How the Haass proposals were handled embarrassed political unionism immeasurably in front of Haass, Cameron, Kenny, Obama and the entire White House Administration. Christ, by bringing in the ‘Reverend’ and consulting the likes of Frazer/Bryson they managed to make the Shinners look like seasoned statesmen who can say with a high degree of credibility “we tried but look what we were up against” :)

    Uproar one week about a Republican march commemorating people who tried to blow up a town. Silence the next when there’s an annual Loyalist march commemorating people who tried to blow up a town. Uproar one week about a republican even in a Leisure Centre, silence the next when there’s a loyalist event in a Leisure Centre. The hilarious list of ‘amusements’ goes on.

    This current crop of political unionists don’t give a crap about the union 10, 20 or 25 years from now…if they did they wouldn’t be behaving the way they are.

  • Mark

    Morpheus ,

    For some reason I don’t seem to be able to commend your comments but your dead right in what you’ve posted . What happens if McGuinness rang in sick ( as someone suggested ) and refused to shake the hand of the Queen ? There would have been uproar especically after her visit last year to the South . Pragmatism plays a huge part in politics esp in the North where it’s people are ready to pounce at the first opportunity . Every move is scrutanised and gone over with a sectarian fine tooth comb .

  • Mark

    Typo – it’s people should read it’s politicans ……. thousand apologies !

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Cynic

    ‘Hugo Chavez ? A democrat?’

    Indeed. Quite possibly the most unambiguously democratically-legitimate leader of recent times.

    ‘…Hitler – whom you left off your list too…’

    You’re right. An obvious oversight. Hitler should indeed have been added to the list.

    (Note: this is not a list of heroes, nor a list of villains, though it contains both. It’s simply a list that exposes the fatuousness of Stalin’s original statement.)

  • Billy Pilgrim

    TMitch57

    Thanks for the lesson in grammar. But surely if the past is irrelevant, then that applies to Gerry Adams’ past too?

    The reference to George HW Bush is not in relation to his WWII service, but to his leadership of the world’s foremost terrorist organisation, the CIA. Chavez formed and headed a secret cell within the Venezuelan military, and was jailed for leading a conspiracy to overthrow the government. Ben Gurion was head of the Haganah, Begin headed up Irgun, and together they did this, among other things.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing

    Sharon too served in Haganah, though I was actually referring to his collaboration with falangists in the Lebanese massacres of 1980s.

    You’re correct to say that Cuba isn’t a democracy, but it’s scarcely less democratic than the USA or UK, and is much more democratic than Israel, yet you don’t question their credentials. And it’s bizarre to say Cuba isn’t western, what with it being smack bang in the middle of the western hemisphere, a good 4,000 miles west of where we sit.

    Bonar Law was the most treasonous parliamentarian in British history, this side of Cromwell, and was as complicit with the UVF as Adams later was with the IRA.

    Lord (Mark) Thatcher was a key player in the failed coup in Equatorial Guinea; now he sits in ermine.

    Glad to aid your understanding.

    ‘Next time you TRY thinking you should use the rest of your head–it works better.’

    Ouch!