QUB Student’s Union show signs of “Old Guard” mentality

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Queen’s University Students’ Union from the 1970s until at least the mid 1990s suffered from extremely divided student politics. It even reached the stage that the Northern Bank was excluded from Freshers’ Fair; whilst assorted IRA members were made honorary life members and a number of members of the executive went on after graduation to gaol for IRA terrorist offences.(one popped back up again recently as a Deputy Headteacher) Bizarrely they also voted to ban Nestle products from the Students’ Union shop but never acted on that ban as it would have lost them lucrative sales.

In the mid 1990s in a bid to reduce the tensions, assuage the unionist chill factor in the Union and reduce the negative publicity the university brought in outside consultants. They recommended changes which were implemented by the university authorities over the heads of the Union.

More recently there has been less negative publicity about QUB Students’ Union. Now, however, in what looks like a bid to get back to the glory days of sectarian animosity there is a proposal from a Sinn Fein member to ban selling poppies in the Student’s Union:

“This Council, therefore, instructs the VP [vice-president] Equality & Diversity and the Union President to end the sale of poppies in the Students’ Union to provide an end to political sponsorship of the Poppy Appeal, in the name of peace, inclusivity and progressivism.”

Unionist parties at the university have clearly opposed the move as have the SDLP.

Ulster Unionist Lisburn councillor Alex Redpath said he was “really disappointed” by the motion. Mr Redpath, who was speaker of the students’ council in 2010, said he believed it has become a “less accepting” place.
“This sort of petty sectarianism has been displayed in the past by the University of Ulster Students’ Union and the UUP’s Youth Wing the Young Unionists successfully fought a campaign to stop the ban,” he said

In reference to the article below from Daithi McKay it looks as though Sinn Fein has an “old guard” of young people intent on stirring up sectarian divisions and dragging things backwards.

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  • Mc Slaggart

    In such places would it not be better to sell only the white poppy?

  • Neil

    Or sell everything and let people decide to donate or not. Uni campuses should be tolerant places, and I’m reminded of the GAA top discussion at UUJ. This whiffs of a bit of tit for tittery to me.

  • Kensei

    This is obvious tit for tat. Hopefully it fails, while reminding the tits what happens when you start going down this road.

  • Batta

    I’m actually really upset about this story. I am completely apolitical and find neither a poppy or a GAA shirt offensive. What upsets me is when such a hard line is being taken against intolerance such as racism, homophobia, anti-Semitism etc….in Northern Ireland/north of Ireland (or however you feel necessary to describe this small piece of land) we can’t seem to quite reach a point where we have the courage to tolerate each other.

    A poppy was never intended as political symbol. A GAA shirt was never intended as political symbol. It’s intolerance that makes them so.

    Today’s higher education students are tomorrow’s leaders. Lets hope we can see some tolerance and healing in the future.

  • Dec

    Not sure how opposing (or, by extension,proposing) the sale of Poppies is ‘sectarian’.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    ” political sponsorship of the Poppy Appeal”

    What does that mean, ‘political sponsorship’?

  • Jagdip

    ““It is absolutely scandalous that a display of Easter lilies and a box marked “Honour Ireland’s Patriot Dead Wear an Easter Lilly” has been placed in the reception area of Magherafelt council.

    “The Magherafelt area suffered greatly at the hands of the terrorists who are celebrated by those who wear Easter lilies. This is a gross insult to the loved ones of those who died at the hands of Republican terrorists.

    “It is absolutely unacceptable that such items would be displayed in a building funded by ratepayers, many of whom are Unionists.”
    Says Jimbo
    http://tuv.org.uk/tuv-demand-removal-of-terrorist-display-in-magherafelt-council/

    “It is absolutely scandalous that a display of red poppies and a box marked “never forget” has been placed in the reception area of Queens University student union.
    “The Belfast area suffered greatly at the hands of the British security forces who are celebrated by those who wear red poppies. This is a gross insult to the loved ones of those who died at the hands of British security forces.
    “It is absolutely unacceptable that such items would be displayed in a building funded by ratepayers, many of whom are nationalists.

  • Nordie Northsider

    Agree completely that the proposed ban is intolerant. I hope that it fails. But what was bizarre about a boycott of Nestlé products? They have a case to answer re their activities in the developing world, as laid out by organizations like Baby Milk Action, One of the better Student Union stances, I would think.

  • SDLP supporter

    This motion is the latest move in the oldest game in the book here, namely sectarian coat-trailing. The proposers don’t even have the courage to come on and justify their position. Hope the motion fails.

  • Turgon

    Nordie Northsider,
    You misunderstand. The Union voted to ban the Nestle products for exactly the reasons you outlined. However, the Students’ Union Executive decided to ignore the vote as it would have cost them sales in the shop. The Student President simultaneously defended both the decision they did not act on (banning Nestle’s) and one they acted on (to ban the Northern Bank).

    QUB Students’ Union politics was truly a weird place. Seems some want to go back to it.

  • JH

    “Weird” is what makes student politics brilliant and radical.

    In saying that I don’t know what the purpose is behind this is but I suppose you have to take the good with the bad in terms of radical ideas.

    Last I heard the British Army was still recruiting on campus and in the vicinity of the Union, why not raise that issue?

    It seems like they could continue to allow the sale of poppies in the Union and students could continue to not buy them.

  • rooneyke

    I have no problem with selling poppy as long as the Easter Lilly and other emblems are allowed to be sold.
    On a related issue, Student Unions should not be banning any thing be it the poppy or a Blurred Lines song.
    Students of all people, need to understand that freedom means exactly that – the right to hear wear and sing what you want without restriction.

  • Jagdip

    Stop the presses, Jimbo has spoken

    “It is a symbol of honour and reminds students of Queen’s of the sacrifice paid by former generations, some of whom are commemorated within the grounds of the University.

    “I very much hope that this proposal will be defeated. It is a sick insult to the dead.”
    http://tuv.org.uk/sinn-fein-motion-to-ban-poppies-at-queens-sick/

    I think he’s speaking about the poppy and not the “gross insult” of the lily.

  • RDME

    I think honouring the British army is distasteful, especially in NI, but putting up with things we find distasteful is a necessary skill in NI. That’s why I’d love to see the student who proposed this withdraw it, propose selling the Easter Lily and watch the wheels spin as those screaming ‘intolerance!’ attempt to do a u-turn.

  • Greenflag

    One would think that ‘intelligent ‘ students would show a bit more tolerance ? If this is the best that said ‘students ‘ can come up with what hope for the knucklegrounders of both communities ?

  • Gingray

    “It seems like they could continue to allow the sale of poppies in the Union and students could continue to not buy them.”

    Totally agree with that, I never bought one despite having ex servicemen in the family, but its a personal choice to be honest.

    I do note that Turgon that you fail to mention that SF was banned from organising at the same university as late as the late 90s and that before the 70s both the University and the Union went to great lengths to stop any sort of recognition for nationalists and that what happened was a painful transition as they had to fight to be recognised. What went before needs to be considered. My mother graduated in the early 70s and refused to stand to the anthemn – she was dragged from her chair then pushed to the floor, not uncommon behaviour either

  • Ní Dhuibhir

    Pity, though hardly surprising, that this is the one motion anyone outside QUB is paying attention to. They’re debating several more important things today (abortion, for one).

    It seems an unwise motion to me, but it only takes a couple of students to propose something to get it debated. The way it’s been reported has blown it massively out of proportion. It’s the press and older people who are fixated on this type of issue, not QUB students.

  • socaire

    Surely there are plenty of other outlets selling British Army poppies without hawking them round ‘Queen’s’. The hundreds of thousands in the North of Ireland who have been on the receiving end of the British Army will be hard to convince to buy a poppy. And what reason is non appearance on the biggest show in the country (sic) considered evidence of a weak argument. And it it no surprise that the Slowly Dying Loser’s Party is toadying again.

  • Reader

    socaire: The hundreds of thousands in the North of Ireland who have been on the receiving end of the British Army will be hard to convince to buy a poppy.
    Then they won’t buy them. But most QUB students won’t be among those hundreds of thousands, as the GFA was agreed in 1998 and the British army was underemployed here for a number of years before that.

  • SK

    The party which Turgon supports recently suggested some “old guard” tactics of its own, by pressing the UU board of governors to ban GAA jerseys on campus. This latest stunt is a fairly obvious return of serve.

    “it looks as though Sinn Fein has an “old guard” of young people intent on stirring up sectarian divisions and dragging things backwards.”

    …says the Jim Allister cheerleader, without a hint of irony.

  • notimetoshine

    I had hoped against hope that our Universities would be some form of a bastion against the moronic intolerance, bigotry and parochialism that defines our society here in NI.

    I was sadly mistaken. I would have expected better from a supposed ‘world class’ University and the student body.

    It seems that regardless of where in our society you are, one will always be confronted with crass, ill advised stirring for the sake of stirring.

    Just confirms what I have always thought, that any Ni students wishing to go to University should be forced to over the water or over the border to study, they obviously aren’t mature enough to break the parochial bonds that hold them back here.

    Disgusting.

  • socaire

    Reader, their brothers,fathers etc will remember (as we do). Let them be like the OO and only go where they will be appreciated. Most of the students did not ‘agree’ to the GFA.

  • GEF

    Waving a red flag at a bull this one. All will happen if banning the poppy being sold during remembrance week in November 2014 motion is passed, flag waving loyalists will picket QUB while poppy sellers set up their pitches just outside the students union. No doubt violence and riots will erupt.

  • JH

    notimetoshine:

    Brilliant trolling mate!

  • notimetoshine

    @JH

    hardly trolling, more sheer exasperation!

    Just another instance of silly cultural/symbol based nonsense, which in NI seems to be the main focus of many organisations in NI, though I would have expected better from Queens.

    Will the banning of poppy sales improve quality of education? Improve the quality of facilities? Improve job prospects for graduates?

    This is a sideline issue like so many in NI that will be brought to the fore at the expense of matters than can make a real impact on our lives.

  • Batta

    SF motto: “Justice, equality and fairness for all”.

    We all know that actions speak louder than words, so lets practice this idealism for real: if we ban the Poppy we ban the Easter Lily. If we sell the Poppy then we sell the Easter Lily alongside it. Both sides suffered, both sides remember, and both sides should be free to mark that in their own way.

    A truly just, equal and fair solution demands give and take, on BOTH sides. If anything this whole debate has highlighted the ugly truth that some factions are a long way from meeting in the middle, and fearfully, possibly moving away from it.

    As I mentioned previously, I am completely apolitical, so not pointing a finger in any direction. I just want to live my life in peace.

  • notimetoshine

    A question for everyone, why are these symbols so important?

    Why do we get wrapped up in the politics of symbols, when the are completely superfluous to the things that really make a difference to our lives?

    Why is it that we can’t just ignore symbols we don’t like or don’t mirror our own political views/cultural beliefs?

    It just shows how immature and stupid some people in NI are regardless of which side they are on.

  • tacapall

    Notimetoshine why dont you put that question to the snake oil salesmen up at Stormont, they’re the ones that roll the snowballs for others to throw. Monkey see monkey do and all that.

  • JH

    Just to be clear though the Union is separate from the University, this hasn’t even gone to a vote yet and even if it does it would need to be broadly reflective of the entire student body to pass.

    The content of this ‘news’ currently amounts to pretty much ‘someone said something vaguely controversial in a room’.

  • Reader

    socaire: Let them be like the OO and only go where they will be appreciated.
    That’s a fascinating guiding principle you have there. So do you think Sinn Fein should stay out of Bangor?

  • Sp12

    It’s sad when people just out of their teens cannot act with more maturity than Jim and the TUV :(

  • BarneyT

    My first thought was tit for tat, but the poppy is sensitive over here.

    The fact that it has to be sold, presumably to raise funds for previous and existing British troops and their families is very sad. British, as any other nation, should recognise the sacrifice that their soldiers are making (for the most part) and deal with any financial discrepancy or support issue that exists. You cant ask someone to fight for you and then through them in the scrap heap when it goes wrong.

    I think the poppy should be regarded as a remembrance item and those that got slaughtered during WW1 and this can be extended to WWII. That is surely the purpose.

    Selling it in Ireland to raise funds for those associated with the British and perceived occupying forces is going to generate angst…that’s a no brainer.

    We need to restore the meaning of the poppy and remove the politics from it.

  • Anaximander

    Sell both the lily and the poppy, or neither. The poppy commemorates Britain’s dead in all wars, not just WWI, and is a politicized symbol. As such, it has no more or less validity than an Easter lily, which is likewise political as well as commemorative.

    To do otherwise would indeed be engaging the ‘old guard’.

  • socaire

    Reader, I try hard but I can’t seem to remember the last time that RUC/PSNI forced a republican parade through Bangor. I can however remember the Garvaghy Road when an unwanted OO parade was forced through. To tell the truth I can never remember a nationalist parade being forced through anywhere if you don’t count Burntollet. All symbols are not the same here. Some have ‘government’ stamp of approval and come from the side of the population that decent people come from.

  • Anaximander

    A last point. It’s hard to see how the poppy could be anything other than political when the funds of the poppy sales go to the RBL, an entity which aids British war veterans. By buying a poppy, one is showing open support for the British Army, the same army that has a blood stained record in Ireland stretching back to 1921, and before. One should be free to wear one, but let’s not pretend that the symbol is anything other than tribalistic. I’m sure too we all remember the ”freedom” BBC NI gave its newsreader to abstain from sporting the symbol, ”do so and you’re out the door…”

    Commemorating Soviet war dead in Estonia is all well good for the Russian minority there, but provokes the ire of the Estonian majority, understandably so. Ireland and the poppy is no different.

  • Alan N/Ards

    Is it just so called republican’s who are against the poppy or is it the entire Roman catholic population in NI?

    Is it not a fact that so called republican’s killed more Catholic’s than the army during our recent “troubles”. Does that not make the lily a toxic emblem for many Catholic’s?…. Just a thought.

  • Gopher

    I believe the motion failed. My faith in the world is restored

  • RyanAdams

    Motion failed – 15 in favour, 40 against.

  • Charles_Gould

    Surprising that as many as 15 students voted for such a sectarian motion – I suppose SF were keen that “their” supporters vote in this way?

    Compare and contrast SDLP and SF in terms of progressive tolerant politics.

  • Charles_Gould

    Excellent tweet from SDLP’s Seamas de Faoite: “What a ridiculous idea to ban poppies from being sold in Queens’ Student Union. Politicising remembrance – we’ve had enough of that!”

  • tacapall

    Charles you know for a fact those 15 students were all Sinn Fein supporters ?

  • socaire

    Compare and contrast SF and SDLP in terms of the people’s approval. Somebody is doing something right. Maybe it’s tactical voting or just lending their votes. Does this mean that the Easter Lily will now be on sale in the SU shop or does progressive thinking not apply to terrorists?

  • Charles_Gould

    tacapall of course not, but it seems to correlate with the type of politics that Mr Adams represents.

  • Reader

    socaire: Reader, I try hard but I can’t seem to remember the last time that RUC/PSNI forced a republican parade through Bangor. I can however remember the Garvaghy Road when an unwanted OO parade was forced through.
    I was making the SF/IRA :: RBL/BA link. Can you remember IRA bombs in Bangor? I can. Even if Bangor youngsters can’t remember, to use your words “…their brothers,fathers etc will remember (as we do).”
    Anyway, your guideline didn’t depend on making any sort of argument, it was purely a matter of local perception: “…only go where they will be appreciated.” Will you expect SF to abide by the advice you urged on the RBL?

  • Alan N/Ards

    Charles

    There is no comparison. As a unionist, I respect the SDLP for their commitment over the years to peaceful, tolerant politics. It’s a shame unionist’s and SF can’t do the same. I’m giving Alex Attwood my vote at the election. It was a close call between him and Tina McKenzie.

  • Reader

    tacapall: Charles you know for a fact those 15 students were all Sinn Fein supporters ?
    Well 15 vs. 40 is 15/55. I.e. 27%. That’s almost identical to the SF share of first preference votes in the most recent Assembly elections.
    What a coincidence.

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Both are tarnished.

    Poppies are not just a WW1 or WW2 thing, they could have helped a Black and Tan back in the day or today they could be helping a Para pensioner who went on the rampage in Derry or Ballymurphy 40 years ago.

    If you wear a lily, you’re not just commemorating 1916-21. Get real – you’ve at least got a fair bit of sympathy for what the Provos did or you’re some class of an ignorant gobshite.

    Either way, in a mixed environment like QUB, if you wear one you’re self identifying as an UberBrit or an UberTaig.

    Let them sell both somewhere not too prominent and just walk on by, kids.

  • Zig70

    Isn’t it the rbl that politicise rememberance by using the sacrifice of the world wars to promote and fund aftercare for the current mercenary soldiers. I’d have no problem giving money to wwII soldiers but that’s not were it goes, though that’s the impression that’s given. A case of false advertising. Also we have the unionist outrage, they can’t understand why nats don’t like the British army, the same way history only began in 1969 and the English have just an altruistic interest in Ireland. The poppy should be a symbol of peace, the waste of human life, a symbol to stop sending kids out to their death. Not a recruitment tool.

  • socaire

    It is rumoured that ex-RUC men, ex-Bmen, UDR and a host of other yeomanry get a share of the loot from the poppies. Any truth in this? Yes,reader, it would be nice if SF were able to set up shop in Bangor but not if the locals don’t want them. Bit like Alliance in E Belfast. Whereas the Loser’s Party can go anywhere as they are no threat to anybody only themselves.

  • Comrade Stalin

    This motion was wrong and I am glad it has fallen. I am also glad that so many nationalists see it the same way as I do. That’s a sign of progress as I am quite sure a couple of decades back that they would not have felt the same way.

    What we are seeing here is nothing new. Back when I was at QUB in 1997, there was a motion about whether or not there should be Irish language signs which generated a similar level of controversy.

    As with the Irish language, or Gaelic games, there are aspects of the poppy that make me uncomfortable but that is no reason to propose any kind of ban. Just because some politicians and loyalist groups hijack the symbol and attempt to incorporate it as part of what they call culture does not mean that it should be seen exclusively that way.

    Ireland as a whole is slowly coming to terms with the parts of its history and heritage that it shares with the UK, including when Irishmen felt compelled to fight in the two world wars alongside their British counterparts. It would be poor show for nationalists and republicans to be seen to be going against that grain.

  • socaire

    Can a motion be wrong? What happened to the Irish language signs? According to unionists only british people fought for Britain in WW1/2.

  • tacapall

    Reader I dont know if the student council perfectly correlates with the voting population outside Queens but obviously you do.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Alan N/Ards

    “Is it just so called republican’s who are against the poppy or is it the entire Roman catholic population in NI?”

    I know plenty of Ex British army people {B.T.} in Tyrone who do not wear the poppy.

    I find the RBL very money grabbing. How much money do they send to the people left in the conflict zones the British army did the fighting in?

  • Reader

    socaire: It is rumoured that ex-RUC men, ex-Bmen, UDR and a host of other yeomanry get a share of the loot from the poppies. Any truth in this?
    I don’t expect that B-specials get help from the sales of poppies, as they were part time constabulary, not military. Where did you hear this rumour?
    socaire: Yes,reader, it would be nice if SF were able to set up shop in Bangor but not if the locals don’t want them.
    Sorry, that’s a bit vague. Are you saying they couldn’t, or they shouldn’t?
    Personally, I think a legal organisation (as SF are) should be able to set up anywhere, and receive the protection of the law. But I’m really curious where *your* logic is taking you.

  • Reader

    tacapall: Reader I dont know if the student council perfectly correlates with the voting population outside Queens but obviously you do.
    You presumably had your own guess about the correlation of SF support and the vote on allowing poppy sales on QUB Student Union hallowed turf. And I had my guess. At least I was able to put some numbers to my impression.
    Alternatively, the vote could have added up as follows:
    For: 2 * SF proposers + 13 * Tacapall rejectionists
    Against: Various Huns, lackeys and revised-party-line shinners.
    We may never know.

  • Sp12

    “Is it just so called republican’s who are against the poppy or is it the entire Roman catholic population in NI?”

    Good luck with finding someone who can authoritatively speak for the ‘entire Roman catholic population in NI’.
    I can however say my grandfather and great Uncle, both of whom served in WWII, as their Father and Uncles served in WWI both wouldn’t be seen dead wearing a poppy, no doubt they wouldn’t like to contribute funds to the very soldiers whose actions on Bloody Sunday had them burning their medals and army pension books a few days later at the war memorial at the Diamond.

    Personally, I can remember and respect their actions without joining in the jingoism and compulsory media presence of remembrance day/week/month or whatever it is this year.

  • Comrade Stalin

    socaire,

    Can a motion be wrong? What happened to the Irish language signs? According to unionists only british people fought for Britain in WW1/2.

    Yeah, but they’re wrong.

  • tacapall

    Now reader your getting all disrespectful now it wasn’t me who proposed the motion nor did I give my opinion on bringing graveyard politics into a place where the only thing that should be on sale is education but seeing as were remembering the past I’ll stick to remembering the genocide caused in Ireland by crown forces over the centuries and maybe try and calculate the numbers of Irishmen murdered or forced into slavery by those same crown forces you expect us Irish to simply forget about.

  • RyanAdams

    Anyone who happens to be arguing the point about why Easter Lillies aren’t sold would do well to check out this twitter account where a bright spark effectively called out the motions proposer on this:

    https://twitter.com/PaulWyatt94/status/463718388460957696

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Out of curiosity (and sheer ignorance) where do the proceeds from the Easter Lily sales go?

  • Gopher

    I believe the Queens students to their eternal credit landed a blow against conscription last night. SF was simply trying to enlist the whole of Queens into their cause. A vote for SF is a vote for being involved in a battle a day and I’m glad the majority of students seen through it. I noticed the proposer of the vote was not prepared to come on camera to explain his proposition and remained in his bunker whilst he was prepared to identify the whole of Queens with the motion. Well done again Queens students for defeating conscription and bloc politics.

  • Reader

    tacapall: …but seeing as were remembering the past I’ll stick to remembering the genocide caused in Ireland by crown forces over the centuries and maybe try and calculate the numbers of Irishmen murdered or forced into slavery by those same crown forces you expect us Irish to simply forget about.
    But the roundheads and redcoats are all dead. Depending on your religious beliefs, they are either beyond all possibility of revenge, or gone to a place where there is no collective punishment, and each one is judged as an individual.
    On the notion of collective punishment – maybe one or two hundred thousand soldiers passed through Northern Ireland in the troubles. A tiny proportion of them murdered anyone, and a small proportion of them will ever need the assistance of the RBL. Opposition to the Poppy Appeal is a very blunt instrument indeed.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    tacapall:

    ” …but seeing as were remembering the past I’ll stick to remembering the genocide caused in Ireland by crown forces over the centuries and maybe try and calculate the numbers of Irishmen murdered or forced into slavery by those same crown forces you expect us Irish to simply forget about.”

    Just curious, to which genocides by CROWN forces do you refer?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    BTW, any one:

    If one purchases an Easter Lily then where do the profits go to?

    Just the vendor?

  • tuatha

    How about selling Bhríde’s green rushes solar crosses for Imbolc and the approach of Spring?
    Non sectarian (unless there are some unreconstructed Fir Bolgs still holding grudges for lost turf…), a simple source of income for cottage industry to make such ephemeral things and, who knows, maybe even the cutties might learn something more inspiring than the tired & destructive old dogmas.

  • TwilightoftheProds

    AG

    thats a good question re the lillies…and maybe a better one than we both think…..

    My short answer would’ve been “National Graves Association” but I got wondering….there are a lot of local variants ‘Tyrone National Graves’, ‘Belfast National graves’, which the NGA is adamant are unofficial..and they suggest are largely political (SF?)

    Come to think of it does anyone know the cut off point in historical time for the NGA? Does anyone cease being the deserving ‘Republican Dead’ after a given period in history?

    Now this is where slugger often excels…help a couple of poor huns out and maybe we can try to answer questions about the poppy as best we can….

  • tacapall

    “Just curious, to which genocides by CROWN forces do you refer”

    Are we gonna go down this road again An Gghobsmacht ?

    The Crown is just a corporate name for a cabal of money lenders who have been behind the majority of wars around the world since they took control of Britain after the so called glorious revolution. Those usurers and investors who pulled Oliver Cromwell’s strings and financed his genocide in Ireland are the same people who pull the Windsors strings those private bankers and investors are also the same people who financed the dutch dwarf and his takeover of the English throne, surely you’ve read about that secret cabal who control that independent state and tax haven called inner city London the real government who dictate all corporate UK policy, that Crown, the one that controls all those tax havens like the Cayman Islands, Jersey, Isle of Man, you know all the Crown dependencies, those same people who sell the British people the currency called the Pound.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Tac

    I’m aware of the financial aspect to ‘the Glorious Revolution’, it’s a favourite rabbit to pull out of the hat when one is bored and in the company of Orangemen.

    I don’t see how Cromwell could be labelled as ‘Crown’ anything given that he was an unpopular regicidal, party-pooping, proto-republican dictator.

    And he predates the Glorious Revolution.

    But, I’m up for hearing about it.

  • tacapall

    Theres plenty of evidence online if you take the time to look AG -

    “Edward I banished the Jews from England for many grave offences endangering the welfare of his realm and lieges, which were to a great extent indicated in the Statutes of Jewry*, enacted by his Parliament in 1290, the Commons playing a prominent part

    In The Jews in England we read:- “1643 brought a large contingent of Jews to England, their rallying point was the house of the Portuguese Ambassador De Souza, a Marano (secret Jew). Prominent among them was Fernandez Carvajal, a great financier and army contractor.”

    Oliver Cromwell, traitor In January of the previous year, the attempted arrest of the five members had set in violent motion the armed gangs of “Operatives” already mentioned, from the city. Revolutionary pamphlets were broadcasted on this occasion, as Disraeli tells us: “Bearing the ominous insurrectionary cry of ‘To your tents, O Israel’.” Shortly after this the King and the Royal Family left the Palace of Whitehall. The five members with armed mobs and banners accompanying them, were given a triumphal return to Westminster. The stage was now set for the advent of Carvajal and his Jews and the rise of their creature Cromwell.

    To do so we must turn to such other works as the Jewish Encyclopedia, Sombart’s work, The Jews and Modern Capitalism, and others. From these we learn that Cromwell, the chief figure of the revolution, was in close contact with the powerful Jew financiers in Holland; and was in fact paid large sums of money by Manasseh Ben Israel; whilst Fernandez Carvajal, “The Great Jew” as he was called, was the chief contractor of the New Model Army.

    Great Britain, newly united under James I, was a rising naval power, which was already beginning to sway the four corners of the discovered world. Here also there existed a wonderful field for disruptive criticism; for although it was a Christian kingdom, yet it was one most sharply divided as between Protestant and Catholic.

    A campaign for exploiting this division and fanning hatreds between the Christian communities was soon in process of organization. How well the Jews succeeded in this campaign in Britain may be judged from the fact that one of the earliest acts of ‘their creature and hireling’ Oliver Cromwell, after executing the King according to plan, was to allow the Jews free access to England once more.

    16th June, 1647.

    From O.C. (i.e. Oliver Cromwell), by Ebenezer Pratt.

    In return for financial support will advocate admission of Jews to England: This however impossible while Charles living.

    Charles cannot be executed without trial, adequate grounds for which do not at present exist. Therefore advise that Charles be assassinated, but will have nothing to do with arrangements for procuring an assassin, though willing to help in his escape.

    o O.C. by E. Pratt.

    Will grant financial aid as soon as Charles removed and Jews admitted. Assassination too dangerous. Charles shall be given opportunity to escape: His recapture will make trial and execution possible. The support will be liberal, but useless to discuss terms until trial commences.”

  • Reader

    Tacapall – you’re quoting “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” – that’s an interesting perspective.

  • TwilightoftheProds

    Tacapall’s analysis is reminding me of that scene with Henry Gibson addressing the crowd in the film ‘the Blues Brothers’

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    OK Tac

    So, he had financial backing of THE JEW.

    Now, how does that make him in instrument of the Crown bearing in mind he killed the frickin’ king?!

    OK Tac

    So, he had financial backing of THE JEW.

    Now, how does that make him in instrument of the Crown bearing in mind he killed the frickin’ king?!

    That is surely the least ‘crowny’ thing a person can do?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Damn it, pasted that twice (obviously…)

  • Outsider

    This is your balanced Queen’s audience.

  • tacapall

    Reader I could post you up “The Protocols of the Elders of Zion” but I dont think any of what I posted would be in it but lets face it some people dont like the truth, you know like loyalism attempting to erase the fact that the Vatican was also one of those entities who financed the dutch dwarf and the so called glorious revolution or that the Orange order once an exclusive club for Anglicans only, until lack of numbers forced them to alter their rules and history, was formed to oppose the republican ideals of the Presbyterian formed United Irishmen.

    Twilight – Yawn …. Another Protestant who’s grasp of history is based on an illusion that the so called glorious revolution was about religion. Feel free to check the facts my friend and maybe try and come up with something original rather than the usual loyalist default position of playing the man rather than the ball when faced with something that challenges your traditional beliefs.

    AG do you blame the puppet for the actions of the puppet master ? The same people who pulled the strings of both Cromwell and the dutch dwarf are the same money lenders who created the Bank of England in the aftermath of the so called glorious revolution and the same people who transferred Cromwell’s and the Durch dwarfs debts on to the British population extorting billions from the British people in interest rates over the centuries.

    But then who am I to break the truth to a British citizen that the UK is actually a corporate name and that they are subjects of a global corporation of private bankers also known as the Crown who have for centuries used the British and Irish people as cannon fodder when they decide to plunder and murder in their greed for money and power, rather than the crown that lives in Buckingham palace.

  • Reader

    tacapall – the Cromwell material is from the introduction to the Protocols, here:
    http://www.newsnfo.co.uk/pages/pro.html
    (and search for Cromwell). I have to warn you though, once you start searching for these quotes you land on all sorts of nasty supremacist websites. So I’m off to clear my cache and have a shower.

  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    Would you please provide credible contemporary evidence to support your claim that either the Vatican or Pope Innocent XI financed King William III?

  • tacapall

    Try the THE NAMELESS WAR By Captain A.H.M. Ramsay Reader.

    Ah yes the letters to Cromwell are mentioned on that site but Cromwell is not actually mentioned in the protocols of Zion Reader.

    The truth about the Odescalchi family and their connections to the dutch dwarf wasn’t known until long after Pope Innocent XI was dead. Its only recently that he was uprooted from his tomb in the Vatican and ditched for betraying the Catholic church being replaced by Pope John Paul II. Regardless what religion they operated under or what aristocratic family they came from they were all money lenders who under the disguise of religion murdered and plundered the world for personal gain and the common people were simply cannon fodder in their lust for personal wealth.

  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    Your last paragraph adds no value.

    Do you have credible contemporary evidence to support your claim that either the Vatican or Pope Innocent XI financed King William III?

  • tacapall
  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    I’ve read this before.

    This is a newspaper article about a couple of Italian authors who wrote a novel (not even an acedemic work) based on what they claim to have read in some documents they found.

    I ask again, do you have evidence to support your claim?

  • Reader

    tacapall, what a guy that man Ramsey was.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archibald_Maule_Ramsay
    As for “The Nameless War”. Note that, just as later publications of the Protocols reference Ramsey in the introduction; Ramsey references the Protocols in his book. I wouldn’t take either as lending credibility to the other.

  • tacapall

    Do authors have to be educated at some fancy university that you must approve of or have a load of letters after their name to be classed as able or honest enough to disclose previously unheard of historical facts ?

    The BBC must also be involved in this conspiracy to promote untruths about who financed the dutch dwarf.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/battle_of_the_boyne

    “The Pope backs King Billy

    William is celebrated to this day as a champion of Protestantism, but he was nonetheless backed by the head of the Catholic Church, Pope Alexander VIII. The Pope was part of a ‘Grand Alliance’ against Louis XIV’s warring in Europe and supported William’s reconquest of Ireland.”

    .

  • tacapall

    Ah Wikipedia hmm that fountain of knowledge that anyone can alter. So what he quotes from the protocols of zion, does that make him a liar ? The Orange order and the majority of their spokesmen and grand wizards are anticatholic but that doesn’t make them liars or mean that they lack credibility on any and every subject they give their views on.

  • TwilightoftheProds

    tac

    how do you feel about the feemasons?

  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    “Do authors have to be educated at some fancy university that you must approve of or have a load of letters after their name to be classed as able or honest enough to disclose previously unheard of historical facts ?”

    No, they don’t and nobody (including me) claimed that they did.

    “The BBC must also be involved in this conspiracy to promote untruths about who financed the dutch dwarf.”

    Laughable….the BBC article does not even feature the word “financed”.

    However, to return to the point….your original claim was concerned with the family of Pope Innocent XI, the Odescalchi.

    Therefore, for the third time of asking, would you please provide credible contemporary evidence to support your claim that either the Vatican or Pope Innocent XI financed King William III?

    Also, by “the dutch dwarf”, I assume you are referring to King William III.

    I am curious, why do you continually use this term?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Tac

    I’m with you on the financial element of King William III.

    Prof Niall Ferguson makes references to this link, and that how the ‘Glorious Revolution’ was a convenient vehicle.

    Also, I know that the Pope at the time supported him. In fact, this is wonderfully highlighted in Stormont of all places; on open days on can view the Van Der Muelen painting of William III with the pope hovering in the background:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-25462502

    But:

    a/ I too would like to see evidence of actual financial backing from the Vatican (for the purposes of trying to hell raise next time I’m home)

    b/ How and why is this group of shady money lenders called ‘the Crown’?

    c/ Why would Cromwell’s outfit be ‘Crown Forces’ and the actual forces of the King (i.e. The Crown) NOT be?

    d/ This genocide you speak of (again):

    My understanding of the population decline had to do with 10 years of hostilities, a couple of famines and dear knows how many different armies parading around the place doing the things that armies generally do (bring disease, take food and supplies etc), not just because old Noll couldn’t take his finger off the trigger.

    Tac, citing Cromwell and the ‘Crown’ forces is an unusual reason for not liking the Poppy appeal.

    I understand why many people are not comfortable with the symbol and by that very token I think people should be respectful when wearing it.

    The matter is obviously compounded by fleggers abusing the symbol and by the various outlawed loyalist groups hijacking the symbol. (Same goes for the Protestant Coalition)

  • tacapall

    Niccolo if some numbskull with an IQ of 2 was in the Vatican archives and discovered documental evidence that showed x paid y = z amount of money, just because that person has an IQ of 2, nothing changes the facts in the document that he/she found.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1582225/Vatican-bans-book-revealing-secret-of-pope.html

    Vatican ‘bans’ book revealing ‘secret’ of pope

    “found documents in both the Vatican Secret Archive and the Italian State Archives which suggest that William of Orange was receiving huge sums of money from Rome.

    Mr Sorti and Ms Monaldi said they found documents from a papal envoy discussing the “large sums” that William owed Pope Innocent XI.

    Corresponding documents from Innocent’s family records show that the Holy See sent 150,000 scudi to William via an intermediary. The sum, equivalent to more than £3.5 million today, equalled the Vatican’s annual budget deficit.

    When we found the documents we had already started to write the book, but we decided to include the discovery as part of the storyline,”

    By the way asking the same question over and over again and dismissing whatever evidence is given to you isn’t impressive. Im not here to jump through hoops for you if you dont believe then who cares I certainly dont, perhaps you could write to the Vatican and ask them to verify your assumptions that the claims made about Pope Innocent are false and maybe post your reply on here. While your at it there’s this book called the bible and there’s lots of stories in it about this geezer called God. Could you ask them to delve into their archives and show the world credible contemporary evidence that there was in fact an actual person called God.

    Why do I refer to the little parasite from Holland as the dutch dwarf, well the same as I refer to the parasite that lives in Buckingham palace as Mrs Windsor – Why does it annoy you ?

  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    “Niccolo if some numbskull with an IQ of 2 was in the Vatican archives and discovered documental evidence that showed x paid y = z amount of money, just because that person has an IQ of 2, nothing changes the facts in the document that he/she found.”

    Irrelevant. You keep answering a question that has not been asked. I just wish you’d answer the one that has.

    I have urged you to prove or produce evidence to substantiate your claim of financial support.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1582225/Vatican-bans-book-revealing-secret-of-pope.html

    Again, this is just a newspaper article telling the same story.

    Where is the actual evidence?

    Where is the standard academic corroboration?

    The article is still centred solely on the word of the authors of a fictional work….Dan Brown comes to mind.

    “By the way asking the same question over and over again and dismissing whatever evidence is given to you isn’t impressive. Im not here to jump through hoops for you if you dont believe then who cares I certainly dont, perhaps you could write to the Vatican and ask them to verify your assumptions that the claims made about Pope Innocent are false and maybe post your reply on here. While your at it there’s this book called the bible and there’s lots of stories in it about this geezer called God. Could you ask them to delve into their archives and show the world credible contemporary evidence that there was in fact an actual person called God.”

    This paragraph simply confirms to me that you cannot substantiate your claim of papal financial support for William III.

    Like AG requests above, all I ask is “to see evidence of actual financial backing from the Vatican”.

    Do you understand this?

    “Why do I refer to the little parasite from Holland as the dutch dwarf, well the same as I refer to the parasite that lives in Buckingham palace as Mrs Windsor – Why does it annoy you ?”

    So tell me, why do you do this then?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    As mentioned earlier, there are comparisons with the GAA top episode at Jordanstown

    If I recall correctly I reeled of my usual rant about what the GAA could do to ease the situation (in that any reforms implemented might be enough to satisfy the middle of the road unionists and push the eternal nay sayers to the fringe, for we all know that no matter what the GAA do it will never be enough for some within unionism’s ranks).

    If I also recall correctly I was given the standard “no problem with the GAA! Next!” rebuttal.

    Anyhoo, by the same token of removing the ill-will generated by certain symbols, what can the Poppy Appeal do to take the sting out of its global symbol?

    Apologies?

    A clamp down on the use of the poppy at loyalist terror shrines?

    Can it do anything?

    Has the bridge been burnt?

    Anyone?

  • http://www.selfhatinggentile.blogger.com tmitch57

    @tacapail,

    I remember someone pointing out on another thread that the difference between you and the Nazis was that they believed that the world was controlled by a secret consipiracy of Jewish financiers and you believed that it was controlled by a secret conspiracy of English financiers. I now see that you have added the Jews to your mix. The distance shrinks considerably.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Also, what are the Jewish interests in implementing a ‘genocide’ on the Irish (via Cromwell)?

    Could it be, that once again, the genocide notion is bollix?

    “Other people have a nationality. The Irish and the Jews have a psychosis.” – Brendan Behan

    Though after reading the above comments it’s a bit harsh on Jewish people…

  • Mc Slaggart

    Am Ghobsmacht

    ” what can the Poppy Appeal”

    Use the white poppy!

    http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/

  • tacapall

    FFS titch you are scraping the bottom of the barrel there’s a building site near where I live and theres muck everywhere do you want my address and you could come up and just throw it at my windows and hope it sticks, What a dick. – Why is Britain known throughout history as Perfidious Albion and remind us why the Windsors changed their name from Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. By the way maybe you should check up who declared war on who first maybe get a copy of the Daily Express March 24, 1933 and while your at check out who financed.

    “Could it be, that once again, the genocide notion is bollix”

    Am Ghob like I asked you before, rather than me convincing you why dont you actually try convincing me that I am wrong.

    Niccolo the this doesn’t happen for no reason –

    However, the exhumation on April 7 of a casket belonging to the beatified Pope Innocent XI (1611-1689), from the prominent chapel of Saint Sebastian to an ordinary spot farther into the basilica, is unprecedented.

    So did they make him a saint either ?

    People can decide for themselves -

    http://attomelani.net/wp-content/Italy/TheIndependent13-5-08.pdf

    Twlight if you think things are crazy read this –

    http://www.taroscopes.com/miscellanous-pages/briefhistoryireland.html

  • Niccolo

    tacapall,

    “Niccolo the this doesn’t happen for no reason –”

    “However, the exhumation on April 7 of a casket belonging to the beatified Pope Innocent XI (1611-1689), from the prominent chapel of Saint Sebastian to an ordinary spot farther into the basilica, is unprecedented.”

    In what way is this evidence of papal funding for William III?

    “So did they make him a saint either ?”

    Same question….In what way is this evidence of papal funding for William III?

    Yet another newspaper article?

    “People can decide for themselves”

    Indeed, people will decide based on the evidence presented….so far, none.

    “rather than me convincing you why dont you actually try convincing me that I am wrong.”

    What you need to understand is that one cannot go around making claims without the expectation of reasonable challenge. You’ve been asked politely and repeatedly to substantiate your claim, and continually found wanting.

    As AG eludes to, you did the same when you failed to make a case for your contention that “the Great Hunger” of 1845 to 1852 was genocide rather than a famine.

    It appears that for some reason it is important to you that both of these claims should be true.

    If so, then I suggest you build compelling cases for each rather than resorting to petty name-calling and pointless brow beating.

    Now, for the fourth time of asking, would you please provide credible contemporary evidence to support your claim that either the Vatican or Pope Innocent XI financed King William III?

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Tac

    You can’t be convinced.

    Even when your own sources argue against what you are claiming (as in the potato famine/genocide farce) you still cling on.

    You make bold statements, don’t provide evidence and ignore all questions that would serve to either fortify (or more likely) demolish your argument.

    When the heat is too much you then change topic and reel off some abuse, what you said to Tmitch was uncalled for and completely unrelated to what he said.

    ‘Debating’ with you is like debating with a nationalist version of Willie Frazer.

    You have your own dark world and will not allow any light to shine on it.

    If you could be reasonable and answer the questions that are posed to you then you would either prove our points to be wrong or prove yours to be wrong.

    And whomever is wrong should reappraise their view of the world.

    But I think that a world without Gaelic genocide is one that you couldn’t contemplate.