DUP illustrate unionist leadership as #RuthPatterson is in court

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Yesterday Ruth Patterson attended court for her Facebook post and provided an interesting piece of optics for the television cameras. In a considered move, a variety of DUP ministers and other public representatives, including Edwin Poots, Sammy Wilson, Jonathan Bell and Guy Spence (to name a few), attended the court hearing or accompanied her to and from the court, clearly with an eye on the cameras. Other unionist glitterati in attendance included Willie Frazer and others taunting Patterson to get rid of her ‘DUP hangers on’. Her solicitor indicated that she intended to contest the charges.

When the original Facebook post came to light, Patterson issued an apology stating:

“I unreservedly apologise for this lapse of judgement,” she said. “I completely withdraw this flawed Facebook comment. Murder and terrorism can never be justified in any circumstances. To descend to such a level would be to repeat the actions of those we stood against during the dark days of Northern Ireland’s Troubles. My ill-judged comment is completely incompatible with the polices of the Democratic Unionist Party and what is expected of me as an elected representative. I recognise that my careless comments fall short of the standards expected of anyone holding a responsible post. I deeply and sincerely apologise.”

The DUP also issued a statement saying:

“Ruth’s comment was completely unacceptable and not in keeping with the Party’s policies or the standard of behaviour required of our members”.

I don’t think grinning DUP politicians clearly trying to be captured on camera supporting Patterson at her court appearance in any way accords with either statement.

There are various clips of this on Youtube.

At another level, though, in contrast to Chris’ post on the absence of unionist leadership, which he compares with that offered by Martin McGuinness, I think that what was played out at Laganbank yesterday is actually the substance of unionist leadership. In that regard, I think Chris measured it against a set of values that unionist leadership simply doesn’t seek to attain. In the context of the upcoming talks to be chaired by Richard Haass, indeed, it is hard to see any value in republicans directly engaging political representatives who provide a style of leadership to their nominal constituency which appears at odds with any conventional concept of leadership.

In that regard, the optics of smirking Stormont ministers sticking close to Ruth Patterson to try and associate themselves with her (and, in reality, her online comments) in the voters’ minds in some ways encapsulates both the type of leadership offered by unionism and the futility of the current political engagement model that the Haass talks will represent. And there is an alternative to that. Sinn Féin (and the SDLP if they rouse themselves) can simply indicate that, prior to the full operation of the various Agreements signed over the last fifteen years, there is no need for them to attend. The British, US and Irish governments, as guarantors of sorts need to get their act together and implement the Agreements that have already been made. Until then, there is nothing for republicans to negotiate. And currently there are no recognisable leaders on the other side of the table to negotiate with.

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  • tacapall
  • http://www.ur2die4.com/ amanfromMars

    I hear you loud and clear amanfromMars but whats the point of trying to protect ones sensitive information from those who have access to quantum computers, the games up, even the human brain can now be hot wired, hi-jacked and deciphered. There is no hiding places anymore. …. tacapall 28 August 2013 at 10:42 pm

    Howdy doody, tacapall,

    You might like to consider the finer points in alien contact which much more project than just protect ones sensitive information from and for those who have access to quantum communications and computers. Nevertheless, we are in full agreement with all that you have freely said and shared so selflessly.

    And what do think of the likelihood of there being currently an understandably very deeply covered [stealthily and healthily covert and suitably clandestine] British Revolt with enterprising leadership from the Intelligence Services as outed and speculated upon by Trevor Edward Walder here …… http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/cartoon/2013/aug/28/barack-obama-syria#comment-26444605 ….. or are we to believe and conclude that they and their present heads of operations and programs are not smart enough to lead everything in a better beta direction from the shadows and clouds, virtually anonymously and absolutely fabulously?

    Such a dire state of affairs would then present one and those who can* with a myriad collection of super opportunities which can also always be exploited as flash zerodays/lightning hit and run strikes which collapse core systems from within and which highlight and direct one to the ignorant failings which are peppered throughout arrogant hierarchical structures in extant exclusive executive admins.

    Such would also be a most valuable dual use resource and asset for global export and foreign import too, and an exceedingly powerful cyberspace weapon in both the right and wrong hands too, although one would have to share that one would need to be more than just a tad intelligent and mad to use and abuse such information for such as delivers crazy unsustainable gains.

    * In intelligence fields, worthy of the name, it may only require that one thinks that one can to be able to do as one wishes and shares and can.

    Sounds like a bunch of students are engaged in some sort of prank to disprove the validity of the Turing test. …. Comrade Stalin 28 August 2013 at 10:43 pm

    Don’t they wish …… for then they be Masters of Reality via Virtual Means and AIMemes? Something for QUB Computer Dept and Students Union to deny any MI5 Holywood involvement in should they be asked, methinks.

  • Morpheus

    Another fantastic example of DUP leadership:

    “A fresh row has broken out between the DUP and Sinn Fein at Belfast City Council over a motion condemning the attack on Lord Mayor Mairtin O Muilleoir in Woodvale Park earlier this month.

    Sinn Fein plans to propose the motion, which says the Lord Mayor should be able to attend events across the city in safety, at the next meeting of the full council on Monday evening. However, the DUP has indicated it will not support the motion, and accused Sinn Fein of “political point-scoring”.

    And another bunch of unicorns keel over…

    BT story here

  • Neil

    Morpheus,

    That unicorn graveyard’s getting pretty full.

  • Morpheus

    It’s almost like a unicorn cull Neil

  • Barnshee

    “It’s almost like a unicorn cull Neil”

    Their is no need to cull—– simply ignore them -they are “economic unicorns” who will cease to be unicorns when it is “economic” for them do do so. The is no need to cull( or court ) such fabled (economic) creatures

  • Morpheus

    Ignore the Catholics who want NI to remain as part of the UK even though
    1. they are now the majority in the U80 age-group in NI
    2. they have nearly 10% more in the U19 age-group
    3. they are outnumbered 2:1 in the over 80s age-group.

    OK, good tactic. Political unionism seems to have started that ball rolling already – let’s see how that pans out.

    (Table DC2116NI if you are interested), no biggie if you aren’t)

  • Barnshee

    What part of-

    “they are “economic unicorns” who will cease to be unicorns when it is “economic” for them do do so”

    do you not understand?

    That`s why they don`t feature on the prod radar– they don`t really count because their attachment to the UK is based on UK benefits (loyal to the half crown was the old cry ) if there are better available in a UI –off they go–”events dear boy events” will dictate their behaviour and that`s at the mercy of global finance and the British Exchequer.

    There is no” cull or court” lever or purpose available to unionists, in the face of a choice based on an economic system over which they have no control.

  • carl marks

    What part of-

    “they are “economic unicorns” who will cease to be unicorns when it is “economic” for them do do so”

    so no point in behaving like civillised people with a concern for politics then, its just more of the oul secterian crap and mopery till those taigs get old enough to vote then its more mopery as we enter a united Ireland.
    yep i can easily live with that, carry on that man

  • Barnshee

    Repeats

    There is no” cull or court” lever or purpose available to unionists, in the face of a choice based on an economic system over which they have no control.

    Civility is a given –however since the unicorns interest is purely economic the is no need for a concern for politics since the unicorn will cease to be one when the economic conditions are considered right.

    The unionist cannot hope to influence a unicorn whose focus is economics not politics particularly when even the economic levers are beyond his control

  • Alias

    “How do you know that Alias? Sentence structure and grammar?” – Neil

    No, it never occurred to me until Dixie Elliot pointed it out on Anthony McIntrye’s blog. Having looked at both posters, the match is good enough for me.

  • tacapall

    You are correct of course Alias, Michaelhenry and Michael McIvor are the same person.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Barnshee,

    As much as I see what you’re getting at, do you not think the fact that some have crossed the Rubicon into the ‘unenthusiastic/reluctant Unionist camp’ is something that could be worked on?

    Is it not encouraging?

    Surely 30/40 years ago it would have been near inconceivable that they could exist at all, so convinced we were that Catholics to a man wanted a United Ireland?
    Yet now we know there are some and you’ve casually written the whole lot off as economic whores with the same conviction that Craig and Co had regarding Catholics being insurgents-in-waiting.

    I dunno man, there seems to be an opportunity that has fallen into the lap of unionism and you’re advocating doing nothing about it.

    Surely if a unicorn has some 5-10 years experience of being resigned to unionism of some sort then that unicorn might not be so willing as to trade relative certainty for a great unknown in the form of voting for a UI?

    Seems like an awful gamble for potentially little gain.

    With regards to not courting them, there is plenty Unionism can do to make itself more appealing:

    +Drop the fleg obsession or at the very least be more sensitive with choice of fleggery and its adornment of telegraph poles and lamp-posts.

    +Try and kill the perception of Union flag/Unionism = Protestantism (the Protestant Coalition are single handedly setting that notion back 20 years)

    +Follow some of the advice on here regarding parades; on here we have ordinary people saying exactly what their beef is with certain parades. How much pride would be lost by removing a few UVF/UDA type standards or such like from some bands?

    Only 3 suggestions from many.

    Granted, there is no magic switch to abruptly turn off the appeal of Nationalism but if you want to put out the nationalist fire then at the very least don’t throw diesel on it, which is exactly what we do every marching season.

    I personally have a lot of respect for John Gorman, a gentlemanly Old school Unionist and a Catholic to boot.

    He’s happily reconciled to being both Irish and British, is there nothing we could learn from him?

    Does he approve of bands drunkenly playing offensive music in areas where the bands are a bit of an issue?

    If there are no unicorns to be converted then really the game is up and there’s very little point in continuing the farce other than to deny Gerry & co their United Ireland by 2016 i.e. spite.

    So come 2017 let’s just cut a deal and be done with it as it is seemingly inevitable given your argument.

  • Barnshee

    “I dunno man, there seems to be an opportunity that has fallen into the lap of unionism and you’re advocating doing nothing about it.”

    You arguements are all non economic.

    (I agree with you suggestions on parading etc they are eminently sensible tho I woud go further and demand cash deposits from paraders and protesters -forfeit if trouble breaks out)

    Since we appear to be in agreement that the unicorns are only “here for the beer” and will flee when it runs out-it follows that any of your suggestions- sensible as they may be -are ponitless since they will not affect the basic “here for the beer” scenario

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    True, as pointed out by AYM my ‘points’ are usually perception or emotion based.

    I still say dress Northern Ireland as a presentable little lamb regardless if she is bound for the sacrificial altar.

    And (BTW, very flattered, I’ve never had the word ‘sensible’ associated with myself before, I shall remember this day) the suggestions are not pointless:
    People in NI have tremendously long memories.
    As exemplified every marching season.

    A nice and respectful approach to the lower echelons of marching might be a bargain investment should the unicorns turn out to be Minotaurs….

    (I like the marching-deposit-penalty idea BTW).

  • ayeYerMa

    Most aren’t even logic-based arguments on emotional issues either, Ghobsmacht, as evidenced by the fact that you are engaging such a topic on this thread.

    The argument here spun by SF/IRA supporters is that not wasting time with SF/IRA tricks is a “unicorn cull”. I don’t think a typical “unicorn” should be particularly impressed with SF/IRA.

    This is the flaw with “power sharing” as in the system at present . Power sharing is not between Protestant and Catholic, rather (as that is not pragmatic at all) on flawed euphemisms of “Unionism” and destabilising “Nationalism”, the most dominant organisation in the latter being a mass murder and criminal gang. In no part of the world would you ever be expected to treat the latter with respect, especially not in democratic politics where it is healthy and normal for one political party to get stuck into another (and just look how SF/IRA get treated in the Dail). Such an unnatural mandatory coalition system distorts all normal values and the longer it continues, the more damage it will do.

  • Neil

    The argument here spun by SF/IRA supporters is that not wasting time with SF/IRA tricks is a “unicorn cull”. I don’t think a typical “unicorn” should be particularly impressed with SF/IRA.

    Horseshit. The unicorn aspect of this thread came about in response to the DUP disagreeing with a motion saying the mayor of Belfast should be able to conduct his business without being attacked by a gang of unemployed thugs. Most “unicorns” I suspect would support such a motion. It seems the DUP and their hangers on really hate violence, as long as it’s violence directed at good loyal prods.

  • ayeYerMa

    Some unicorns may support such a motion, but I don’t see how any of the non-naive could be put off by a vote against. Especially when one spells out that this is not about the face value of words of such a point-scoring motion, rather reading between the lines to their intended purpose, and when one does such it is just another attempt to whitewash the IRA campaign, forcing such whitewashing down other people’s throats. With recent comments from the same Mayor glorifying said campaign, with no regrets or remorse, it is ridiculous to force others to have reverence for such an individual (just as I would be understanding of those not wanting to respect Mayor Gusty Spence, Mayor Johnny Adair or Mayor Lenny Murphy).

    Let’s also remember that SF/IRA also murdered more Catholics than anyone else.

  • Kevsterino

    @ayeYerMa, What has the Lord Mayor done that would place him in the same league as Gusty Spence, Johnny Adair or Lenny Murphy?

    Keep trying to excuse the DUP’s support for mobbing democratically elected politicians, man. It strengthens the union, you know?

  • SK

    “it is ridiculous to force others to have reverence for such an individual”

    How about simply refraining from assaulting him as he goes about his lawful duties? Or is that also too big an askk?

    On the subject of offensive comments, would you hold Ruth Patterson in the same contempt? If that pig were ever to become mayor and found herself getting a hiding in a nationalist area, would you be as quick to shrug that off?

  • SK

    The DUP refuse to condemn a sectarian assault on the Lord Mayor of Belfast. Such is the caliber of representation put forward by the ever-peaceful, ever-democratic unionist community today.

  • Barnshee

    .”On the subject of offensive comments, would you hold Ruth Patterson in the same contempt? If that pig were ever to become mayor and found herself getting a hiding in a nationalist area, would you be as quick to shrug that off?”

    I would hope that she would quietly suggested that the vist/item might be better attended by her “deputy” due to pressing business elswhere.

  • SK

    “I would hope that she would quietly suggested that the vist/item might be better attended by her “deputy” due to pressing business elsewhere.”

    _____

    So Prods open Prod buildings and Taigs open Taig ones. You’re a visionary.

  • Kevsterino

    I recall when Lord Mayor Maskey tried to do just that and had his Deputy attend a Remembrance Day thingy.

    He was immediately criticized for not being a Mayor of all the people.

    Granted, he wasn’t accosted, which I attribute to either a more civilized bunch of unionists or the Lord Mayor’s boxing background.

  • Submariner

    Let’s also remember that SF/IRA also murdered more Catholics than anyone else.

    AYM where did you hear that fantasy down the local lodge of knee breakers.
    From CAIN website.

    A total of 1552 Catholics were killed during the troubles.
    Republicans were responsible for 446
    British Security forces for 303
    Loyalist for 734

    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

  • ayeYerMa

    Keveristino et. al., I think you’ll find that the law is already in place for assault and it has absolutely nothing to do with Belfast City Council.
    There are police and courts in place for that purpose.

    Supporting such SF/IRA games detracts from the bigger picture: the complete lack of justice in NI, where terrorists now act increasingly untouchable and unashamed at rubbing salt into wounds all the more. Corrupt the justice system in such a way and the only result can be chaos.

    As for Ruth Patterson’s comments, let’s compare and contrast to the recent response to terrorism by the US authorities post Boston-bombings — within a day or two we have photos of a dead body all over the Internet – - justice and celebration all round. As far as many are concerned the only good terrorist is a dead one, and Ruth Patterson merely expressed what many are thinking concerning our lack of justice, albeit not very eloquently.

  • SK

    “As far as many are concerned the only good terrorist is a dead one, and Ruth Patterson merely expressed what many are thinking concerning our lack of justice, albeit not very eloquently.”

    _____

    I sincerely hope you take up a career in politics when you grow up, AyeYerMa. Loyalism is in dire need of another sectarian pissant with a thesaurus.

  • ayeYerMa

    Additionally, although foolishly bordering on incitement vigilantism it was not such, and Patterson was discussing a hypothetical – - such hypothetical discussion also should serve as an indication of genuine feeling for those in charge of the justice system.

    Compare and contrast to SF/IRA and their supporters who regularly glorify REAL terrorism, yet do not face court at all.

  • ayeYerMa

    Submariner, you’ve conveniently grouped organisations together there so are making a different point.

    If you want to merge the relationships of various groupings, then one can equally make another wider point to you on that reactionary Loyalist Paramilitaries have little reason to exist if not for existence of difficultly identifiable uninformed Republican terrorist groups. More importantly than that, however, is a backdrop of a British government (with proper intelligence capability) that for much of our history over the past century which has been seen as rather soft on terrorism and soft on defending British citizens, with periods of stability only occurring after crack-down periods to dampen the spiral out of control of lawlessness.

  • ayeYerMa

    *uninformed = ununiformed

    Additionally, you’re probably also grouping together the innocent with the not-so-innocent.

  • Kevsterino

    ayeYerMa, on the one hand you deny the position that politicians need not condemn violence because there are police and courts are in place for that purpose. On the other hand you justify Ruth Patterson praising hypothetical massacres as merely expressing what many are thinking.

    Then you jump in with the logical fallacy of false comparison with the recent US experience with the now deceased bomber of the Boston Marathon.

    By the way, those who are thinking like Ruth Patterson’s musings on the internet are wrong. Unless you believe in mob rule, that is.

  • ayeYerMa

    Keveristino, I did not use the word “violence” but “terrorism” . I am not an all-out pacifist, nor should anyone be who lives in the real world. Violence, while normally to be avoided, cannot be avoided if you are to effectively deal with mass terrorist threat, preventing and even greater scale of violence, and upholding justice in such circumstances.

    Peace without justice isn’t really true peace.

  • ayeYerMa

    … some good quotes from William Allen White:

    “Peace without justice is tyranny”

    “Whoever tramples on the plea for justice temperately made in the name of peace only outrages peace and kills something fine in the heart of man which God put there when we got our manhood.”

    “Just because the Supreme Court makes a decision does not mean that justice has been served. Just because there is not violence in the street does not mean their decisions are right.”

  • Submariner

    ayeYerMa (profile) 2 September 2013 at 6:18 pm
    Submariner, you’ve conveniently grouped organisations together there so are making a different point.

    I haven’t conveniently grouped anything together the facts are that there were three main groupings involved in the troubles . Loyalist terrorists republican terrorists and British security forces

    If you want to merge the relationships of various groupings, then one can equally make another wider point to you on that reactionary Loyalist Paramilitaries have little reason to exist if not for existence of difficultly identifiable uninformed Republican terrorist groups. More importantly than that, however, is a backdrop of a British government (with proper intelligence capability) that for much of our history over the past century which has been seen as rather soft on terrorism and soft on defending British citizens, with periods of stability only occurring after crack-down periods to dampen the spiral out of control of lawlessness.

    A couple of things its interesting that you refer to loyalists as reactionary which they most certainly are not and also that you refer to them as paramilitaries whilst referring to republicans as terrorists Whats wrong can you not bring yourself to call them what they are Terrorists or are you a sneaking regarder.?

  • Comrade Stalin

    ayeYerMa:

    With recent comments from the same Mayor glorifying said campaign, with no regrets or remorse, it is ridiculous to force others to have reverence for such an individual (just as I would be understanding of those not wanting to respect Mayor Gusty Spence, Mayor Johnny Adair or Mayor Lenny Murphy).

    That’s hilarious. We had Lord Mayor Hugh Smyth of the PUP, whose paramilitary wing in 1993 was killing more people than the IRA were at the time of his election (just before, and during the ceasefires). Unionists voted him in. After all we couldn’t possibly have a taig there. Yabba dabba doo, right ?

    And we also had deputy Mayor Frank McCoubrey, who has links to the UDA (and who is now a DUP councillor). In Newtownabbey we had deputy Mayor Tommy Kirkham, who was one of the first people the police arrested when they were investigating the murder of the young postman Danny McColgan. During his term as deputy Mayor, Kirkham was called to testify in court over a sectarian murder which happened in the 1970s. He only attended court when he was told that he would be arrested if he wasn’t.

    Please stop talking shit about how terrible it is that you have to put up with murderers in office. Unionists have no problems putting people connected with paramilitaries in office provided they’re flying the right flag.

    And you are comparing these people with Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, a man who did not “volunteer” for the IRA – a man who said the IRA’s tactics were wrong and who wants to understand unionists. Contrast this with Ruth Patterson who is going around saying a fantasy murder spree of Sinn Féin politicians would be a good thing. Are you sure they measure up ?

    There are people who are victims of the troubles who have a more conciliatory perspective than you – people like Alan McBride, who must each day muster more courage than I need to do me for a lifetime. Could it just be that you use the victim status of people you don’t know in order to satiate your need for sectarian mud-slinging ?

    In no part of the world would you ever be expected to treat the latter with respect

    What about the ANC in South Africa ?

    , especially not in democratic politics where it is healthy and normal for one political party to get stuck into another (and just look how SF/IRA get treated in the Dail).

    To date – this year – there is no evidence that unionists are prepared to reach out to the minority community in the councils and regions they control. Frankly with the attitude of people like you I’d completely oppose any ending of mandatory coalition as it is clear that you have no interest in democracy or respecting the mandate of others at all. Mandatory powersharing stays until an alternative is agreed.

    Such an unnatural mandatory coalition system distorts all normal values and the longer it continues, the more damage it will do.

    You should be careful what you wish for. Are you going to be supporting simple majority government when unionists are a minority, which is approaching within the next 20 years ? You’re just going to sit there and allow a nationalist majority to decorate the place like Croke Park because they have more seats than unionists ?

  • Submariner

    ayeYerMa (profile) 2 September 2013 at 6:21 pm

    Additionally, you’re probably also grouping together the innocent with the not-so-innocent.

    What exactly do you mean by this

  • ayeYerMa

    Submariner, Google “ayeyerma loyalist terrorist”. I have used the phrase several times in my comment history and paramilitary/terrorist are rather interchangeable. The main drivers of insurgent terrorism in the last century, ignoring all treaties, have been Republicans so that is why the focus — take away Republican terrorism and no other terrorism has reason to exist, as per ceasefires (and acknowledged by Albert Reynolds of all people).

    What I mean by your inclusion of those not so innocent is very clear by law.

  • Comrade Stalin

    The Americans and the French celebrate their own home-grown terrorists every year on the 4th and 14th July every year respectively. I think you’re going to have to come up with a better definition.

  • Submariner

    What I mean by your inclusion of those not so innocent is very clear by law.

    Are you suggesting that some of the murders carried out by Loyalist terrorists were lawful or are you suggesting that some of those murdered were convicted in a court of law of some terrorist offence and therefore deserved to be murdered?

  • ayeYerMa

    Proscribed terrorist organisations are very clear in law.

  • ayeYerMa

    Comrade Stalin, clearly statistics aren’t your strong point. The number of terrorists in power is so weighted towards Republicanism that you have a bit of a nerve to even try to make the comparison. And as I said, I don’t believe Catholics should be made to respect Unionist/Loyalist Terrorists either, and should not be made to have these people on their TV screens day in and out.

    The basis behind any good-will towards reconciliation was supposed to be that to “move on” one has to put the glorification of terrorism behind us. I am talking about what is happening TODAY, and recent events confirm the fact of the matter in that dominant glorification of Republican terror by those in power continues without much spirit of what we were told was supposed to happen. I can’t apologise for my lack of Stockholm Syndrome in this regard.

    Mayor Goebbels himself was chief propagandist for the Provisional Movement and in recent interviews was unashamedly justifying IRA actions.

    And you’re sounding like your mate Gerry in laughably even trying to equate minority rule in South Africa with majority rule here…

    And what is your definition of the “minority community? If that minority community continues to elect Provos into power, name play-parks after them, and endless obsess over the subjugation of their neighbours under all-Ireland rule then there isn’t much chance of any “reaching out” to be going on. If that is the type of attitude you want to be “reached out” to, then so be it and Unionists will continue electing whomever does best to stop people like you from destabilising the place by making their priority to appease and “compromise” with Republicans.

    I also said nothing about ending “power sharing”, rather “mandatory coalition” as several parties have already put forwards proposals where both can be done. You endlessly drone here about wanting such a coalition of the middle, yet care more about the feelings of Provo glorifiers to make it happen — says it all about where your Prod-hating priorities lie.

    As for Unionism, I think I’ll be long long dead and buried before a 70+% vs 20-% majority on the border issue is reversed!!!

  • Submariner

    AYM
    What percentage of those Catholics murdered by Loyalist terrorists were members of proscribed organisations as you have accused me of grouping the innocent with the not so innocent no doubt in your eyes to make Loyalists look bad .

  • Morpheus

    “As for Unionism, I think I’ll be long long dead and buried before a 70+% vs 20-% majority on the border issue is reversed!!!”

    Based on…?
    *please don’t say Spotlight, please don’t say Spotlight*

  • FDM

    ayeYerMa 2 September 2013 at 9:46 pm

    “Comrade Stalin, clearly statistics aren’t your strong point”

    Is man playing, implying CS is stupid, which he is not.

    “Mayor Goebbels himself was chief propagandist for the Provisional Movement and in recent interviews was unashamedly justifying IRA actions.”

    Is man playing.

    “And you’re sounding like your mate Gerry”

    Implying that CS is somehow associated with Gerry A, which we all know he isn’t, which is man playing.

    “whomever does best to stop people like you from destabilising the place”

    Which is accusing CS of somehow destabilising the peace process from his keyboard, which is man playing. He is entitled to an opinion. One that I oft don’t agree with I grant you but in my humble opinion but he presents it eloquently enough.

    “You endlessly drone “, implying CS is boring, which is man playing. Actually CS is usually quite compact in his replies. Consistency of viewpoint is not droning.

    Your own comments seem to be a heady mixture of your need to man play [exampled above], your opinion, manufactured statistics and a underlying hatred for Irish nationalists. I whole heartedly disagree with your comments. It seems Stormont and the councils are not the only place you are losing the debate.

    I think collectively we would all appreciate it if you could tone down the insults and stick with the subject matter, or is that too much to ask?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Unionists used to gerrymander constituencies. Now they’re gerrymandering the definitions of words. See as ayeYerMa draws lines around words like “terrorist” and “insurgent” to benefit the people he supports and at the expense of people he doesn’t like.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    So

    These are logical arguments from a non-naive unionist in the real world?

    Pardon me if I’m underwhelmed and unlikely to change my overly-emotional tune…

  • Kevsterino

    “I am talking about what is happening TODAY, and recent events confirm the fact of the matter in that dominant glorification of Republican terror by those in power continues without much spirit of what we were told was supposed to happen. ”

    What were you told was supposed to happen and who told you that?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Sigh. For old time’s sake.

    Comrade Stalin, clearly statistics aren’t your strong point. The number of terrorists in power is so weighted towards Republicanism that you have a bit of a nerve to even try to make the comparison.

    How many terrorists have to be in power before it comes a problem ? Are we allowed a few terrorists (or their friends) here and there .. can you explain where the tipping point is ? I need to make a note of it. Perhaps at the Haass talks we can agree a compromise of how many terrorists are permitted for each non-terrorist ?

    BTW most Sinn Féin MLAs, and indeed its leader and deputy leader, don’t have any convictions. You’re the guy who says that accusations don’t count unless it’s official ?

    And as I said, I don’t believe Catholics should be made to respect Unionist/Loyalist Terrorists either, and should not be made to have these people on their TV screens day in and out.

    Actually I think Hugh Smyth was quite a good Lord Mayor. If people vote for him he has a right to have a fair shake. That’s the difference between us. I’m not a hypocrite. Your rail about terrorists in government and then make mealy-mouthed excuses for exactly the same thing when it is done by the people you support. I think the same rules should apply to everyone in good faith.

    The basis behind any good-will towards reconciliation was supposed to be that to “move on” one has to put the glorification of terrorism behind us.

    Where do you get the right to decide what the “glorification of terrorism” is, and who appointed you in charge of deciding that it was the only prerequisite to reconciliation ? Did you stop, for a second, to consider what opinions nationalists might have about what reconciliation should look like and whether or not you ought to take them into account ?

    I am talking about what is happening TODAY, and recent events confirm the fact of the matter in that dominant glorification of Republican terror by those in power continues without much spirit of what we were told was supposed to happen. I can’t apologise for my lack of Stockholm Syndrome in this regard.

    “dominant glorification of Republican terror in power” ? Are we living in the same country ? I see a defeated organization which limped away from it’s “armed struggle”, stripped of its weapons, operating the British jurisdiction it was sworn to destroy, and trying to make up for it by buying its supporters off with a few pathetic trinkets. What’s glorious about any of that ? Unionists should be raising a glass to this. Instead you let yourselves get spooked because they’re able to persuade both you and their supporters that they won.

    Mayor Goebbels himself was chief propagandist for the Provisional Movement and in recent interviews was unashamedly justifying IRA actions.

    The messages from Sinn Féin are mixed, I’ll give you that.

    The messages from the DUP are not mixed. Ruth Patterson thinks that slaughtering republicans (who have now abandoned violence and who have a significant electoral presence) would be doing everyone a favour and so far nobody in the DUP has repudiated this idea.

    And you’re sounding like your mate Gerry in laughably even trying to equate minority rule in South Africa with majority rule here…

    So it’s OK to shoot people and blow them up if it’s minority rule ? Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend ?

    And what is your definition of the “minority community?

    It depends where.

    In Belfast or Derry, it’s unionists.

    In Lisburn or Newtownabbey, it’s nationalists.

    Irrespective of who the minority is my view is the same. The minorities must be recognized and not simply pushed out by majoritarianism.

    If that minority community continues to elect Provos into power

    I refer you above to my comments about having a UVF-linked Lord Mayor when the UVF were actively murdering people.

    , name play-parks after them,

    The play park thing was a shameful display by the nationalists down there but .. you think this is the best you can come up with for nationalists overrunning loyal Ulster ? Voting on the name of a children’s play park ?

    and endless obsess over the subjugation of their neighbours under all-Ireland rule

    How on earth can you complain about other people’s endless obsession given all the protests – supported by you – over the flags, and the fact that we have an entire season of marching every freakin’ year ? Doesn’t this strike you as a bit hypocritical ?

    Me, I’d be up for a bit less obsession, on both sides. Do your thing, but not in everyone else’s face. Of course you don’t agree with that.

    then there isn’t much chance of any “reaching out” to be going on. If that is the type of attitude you want to be “reached out” to, then so be it and Unionists will continue electing whomever does best to stop people like you from destabilising the place by making their priority to appease and “compromise” with Republicans.

    You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that you have any say in the matter. The choices are stark. You need to do a better job of promoting agreement and compromise. If you don’t, as explained below, you’re going to lose more of the things you consider important to you. The end of devolution won’t hurt republicans as much as it will hurt you.

    I also said nothing about ending “power sharing”, rather “mandatory coalition” as several parties have already put forwards proposals where both can be done.

    No they haven’t. They’ve put forward proposals which are in practice concerned with excluding nationalists from power which is what they already do on the councils where they are in control. It’s dead in the water already. Stop wasting time and come back with this idea when you understand why mandatory coalition can only end when the trust exists to implement it voluntarily.

    You endlessly drone here about wanting such a coalition of the middle

    I do ? I had a check through my contributions over the past few weeks (it took a while – I do go on a bit) but I don’t see anything about a coalition of the middle.

    , yet care more about the feelings of Provo glorifiers to make it happen — says it all about where your Prod-hating priorities lie.

    Basil McCrea and John McAllister think the Maze should not have been cancelled. Are they Prod-haters who care more about the feelings of Provo glorifiers too ? I’m with Basil and John on this and I think a lot of other people are too.

    As for Unionism, I think I’ll be long long dead and buried before a 70+% vs 20-% majority on the border issue is reversed!!!

    Re-read what I said. I didn’t say support for the union would fall into the minority; I said unionism would. Think about it. What is currently happening on Belfast City Council (a voluntary coalition) is going to happen at Stormont. And you’re asking for all those protections to be taken away ? How is that going to work when nationalists have more seats ?

    Unionist assembly seats since 1998 :

    1998 58
    2001 59
    2007 55
    2011 56

    That’s a loss of three seats in nine years or, optimistically, two seats in the space of just over ten years. If that rate continues, unionism will fall to 54 or 53 seats by 2020 and will then be in a minority of 53 out of 108 seats. And bear in mind a good chance that some of those Unionists in that 53 will be on the Basil McCrea and David McClarty side. In your magic coalition world, these are the guys who will join with the nationalists to form a government.

    Remind me of exactly how you see any of this working in your favour ?

    BTW all the while this is happening support for the union is falling too. I’m the sort of person who is undecided and might well vote for the union if/when the big day comes. You might want to think about that, and you might want to think about what happens when you call someone like me a terrorist sympathizer, or a fenian bastard (which is essentially what your language consists of) and tell me to go and fuck myself. I might well choose to tick the box which makes the point that you can’t behave like this and get away with it.

  • Am Ghobsmacht

    Well looky here, looks laike we gut urselves a regular ole unicorn, sheriff…

    Comrade

    Brilliant, I’m going to post that last bit again lest it has been overlooked:

    ” I’m the sort of person who is undecided and might well vote for the union if/when the big day comes.

    You might want to think about that, and you might want to think about what happens when you call someone like me a terrorist sympathizer, or a fenian bastard (which is essentially what your language consists of) and tell me to go and fuck myself.

    I might well choose to tick the box which makes the point that you can’t behave like this and get away with it.

    Fine points indeed.

  • Morpheus

    Interesting development

    “George Best’s image has been replaced by a paramilitary mural glorifying the Ulster Volunteer Force in his native east Belfast.

    The replacement of the football icon by a painting of a UVF gunman is being seen as a regressive move during a year when the constituency became a focal point for loyalist street violence linked to the flag and parades disputes.”

  • ayeYerMa

    CS, you really have a very self-important opinion of yourself, don’t you? As if YOUR opinion is all that matters — yes the same guy who went hysterical when Ann’s Law was passed by the Assembly.

    “How many terrorists have to be in power before it comes a problem ?”
    If you want to “move on” (as Alliance types frequently tell us we must do) towards a genuine will for true reconciliation then NO terrorists in power are the high standards that should be set.

    “BTW most Sinn Féin MLAs, and indeed its leader and deputy leader, don’t have any convictions. You’re the guy who says that accusations don’t count unless it’s official ?”

    Where did I say that? We all know most are lyin bastards, and are conveniently excused for the sake of the corrupt and illogical “process” by a pathetic British government. I did make a comment that if you want to define an “innocent victim” then it can’t be a member of a proscribed terrorist organisation, on which there is no doubt of membership for those you mention.

    Support for the union = Unionism. If there is support for the constitution then you can’t realistically not have political support for maintaining the constitution in the long term. If you, Naomi Long, and Basil McCrae want to pretend that is not Unionism, then feel free to keep deluding yourselves and keep the political instability ongoing.

    ““dominant glorification of Republican terror in power” ? Are we living in the same country ? I see a defeated organization which limped away from it’s “armed struggle”, stripped of its weapons, operating the British jurisdiction it was sworn to destroy, and trying to make up for it by buying its supporters off with a few pathetic trinkets. What’s glorious about any of that ? Unionists should be raising a glass to this. Instead you let yourselves get spooked because they’re able to persuade both you and their supporters that they won. ”

    I am not so naive as to be complacent — the real desire for SF/IRA’s “struggle”, continues, merely using differing tactics. Not, of course, that I think it has much chance of success. More related to the fact that SF/IRA terror glorification encourages the same violence and more pointless wasted lives in their “struggle’s” name. Such appeasement of terror glorification through such anti-democratic systems also has allowed a distorted historical narrative to prevail as mendacious propaganda goes unchallenged, but of course it suits CS perfectly to portray Unionists as the big evil bogey men, so of course CS isn’t going to challenge that.

    “So it’s OK to shoot people and blow them up if it’s minority rule ? Is that your final answer or would you like to phone a friend ?”
    As I’ve said elsewhere, I’ve never claimed to be a pacifist. I accept that the Republic of Ireland exists on that basis, and most countries throughout the world exist in their current definitions as a result of war. The acceptance of the Republic of Ireland’s Republican existence on that basis was based on the quid pro quo equal acceptance of Northern Ireland’s Unionist existence.

    “In Belfast or Derry, it’s unionists.
    In Lisburn or Newtownabbey, it’s nationalists.
    Irrespective of who the minority is my view is the same. The minorities must be recognized and not simply pushed out by majoritarianism.

    You are regurgitating the same nonsense dichotomous SDLP-defined model of the appeasement process where people neatly fit into little categories of “Unionist” and “Nationalist” (a model tolerated due to such terms wrongly being used as euphemisms for Protestant and Catholic). This model may be regurgitated endlessly by appeasement processors but is flawed and does not accurately represent people in Northern Ireland. Your logic here that in order for Catholic opinion to be represented means that SF/IRA opinion must not be ostracised backs up the same logic of the most extreme of Loyalist terrorists in that Catholic = IRA supporter/sympathiser. Are you sure that’s what you want to be saying?

    “You need to do a better job of promoting agreement and compromise.”
    This is nonsense. No normal democratic political system is based on endless compromise – something which can only lead to endless stagnation, poor decision making, corruption and civil unrest due to democratic voices not being heard. Unionists have already compromised beyond what would be expected in any other part of the world and civil unrest is resulting as people realise that they are not receiving the same

    “Basil McCrea and John McAllister think the Maze …”
    I wasn’t discussing the Maze on that point. I was discussing ending mandatory coalition. Basil McCrea and John McAllister want to end mandatory coalition too, so in your logic there if they are so wonderful then it must be a reasonable position…

    “or a fenian bastard (which is essentially what your language consists of) “
    more baseless slurs – sums up Comrade Stalin perfectly