Two rounds of Parades Poker to Sinn Fein (though some bombers are more equal than others)..

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Two quotes stand out in this article in the Crime and Law section of today’s Irish Times:

Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness said last night: “Make no mistake about it, those responsible for the violence against the police are the combined forces of the UVF and Orange Order in north Belfast.”

Meanwhile, out wesht [Not THAT far west! - Ed]…

Mr McGuinness said a republican parade in Castlederg , Co Tyrone to commemorate dead IRA members would be “dignified and lawful”. The parade is to go ahead tomorrow in defiance of appeals by unionists, victims’ representatives and Northern Secretary Theresa Villiers .

However, Sinn Féin said a planned counter demonstration against a “feeder” march by Apprentice Boys of Derry also in Castlederg, today, in advance of the main march in Derry will not now go ahead. They said the decision was an attempt to calm the atmosphere.

So that’s two rounds of Parades Poker to Sinn Fein then. Except that there are limits to the   winnings on offer…

DUP Assembly member Tom Buchanan  said: “Martin McGuinness needs to explain the difference between the car bombers in Omagh and the car bombers in Castlederg. Why will his party stand against the Omagh bomb terrorists but stand with the Castlederg bombers?”

Well quite…

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  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    It has been my experience that no conspiracy theorist can be shaken from their belief(s) no matter what.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Martin did not even want a protest to take place!!!!!”

    Mc Slaggart, all this flipping by PRM leaders must leave the rank-and-file in a spin :)

    A few years ago he turned up in Dunloy to call off another protest.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “It has been my experience that no conspiracy theorist”

    A hop, a skip and a jump, Joe, and you’ve gone from Gerry’s conspiracy boast to a theory. Perhaps best to stop digging ;)

  • Mc Slaggart

    Nevin

    “Mc Slaggart, all this flipping by PRM leaders must leave the rank-and-file in a spin”

    Now Nevin if people was not happy with sf they would not vote for them. Currently they are the largest party in Tyrone.

    You cannot explain why Nationalists are not stopping the OO/Bands in counties like Tyrone. Yet you think they are out to stop them in areas in which Unionism is strong.

  • ayeYerMa

    Comrade Stalin, the only thing the 1913 UVF shares with the ‘troubles’ group of that name is the name itself, was originally and remains an entirely legal non-proscribed organisation, as confirmed numerous times by government . Though I’m not surprised at the level of ignorance which you have in equating them with every single IRA faction which, unlike the original UVF, were involved in murder and bombing.

    We do not have devolution as we do not have normal democratic decision-making capability. If the UK government does not address this self-made farce soon, then there is little option but to collapse the talking shop.

  • Kevsterino

    YerMa, when you collapse the talking shop, what do you think you will get in its stead?

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Nevin,

    I am not in a hole so no digging. I can’t say the same for all SOT commenters.
    The four most yawn inducing words on SOT must be:
    Athboy.
    Conspiracy.
    Dick.
    Spring,

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    More, Nevi,

    I’m quite surprised that you don’t seem to understand how these things work. When you invent (or discover) a conspiracy and publish it, it is not the responsibility of others to prove you wrong. It is YOUR responsibility to prove yourself right.
    So, if you think that the BBC or Cain are complicit in the denial by not publishing your theory, it is YOUR responsibiltity to ask them “WHY”.
    If you write to them, please let us know their responses, since I, for one, will be interested. And please don’t give us your gloss on the responses but cut and paste so that we can assess our own responses.
    I wish you well.

  • carl marks

    Back to the oul Athboy thing Nevin, I would ask if the parades thing is all a Shinner plot how do you explain Derry or any of the other areas with an overwhelming Nationalist majority that the “loyal Orders” are permitted to march in.
    Surely if this was SF plotting then barely a Orange foot would tramp west of the Bann, could this maybe have something to do with the behaviour of the OO and its supporters in Belfast (jigs round Chapels, bands linked to terrorists, drunken coat trailers shouting sectarian abuse at residents, flags and symbols on bonfires, etc) but then i asked you all this before and was amazed at how you manage to avoid even recognising that these things even exist!
    Nevin i think i speak for a lot of people here in that we are more than a little fed up with your half baked conspiracy theory being trotted out every time the loyal orders go ape, or the parades commission rules against them!

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Joe, why do you rabbit on about theory? Gerry fessed up about the OO confrontations in that gathering in Athboy.

    Eamonn McKee, the current Irish ambassador in Seoul, kindly sent me a copy of the Dick Spring briefing in July 1996. The briefing exposed the claim made by the then SoS, Sir Patrick Mayhew, that decisions on rerouting were taken by the then Chief Constable, Hugh Annesley; the advice of the security services (police and army) was merely sought. I sent a copy of the transcript to both CAIN and the BBC but neither chose to publish it. It’s possible that the DFA in Dublin no longer has a copy of that transcript and I’m not minded to do a re-run with the BBC and CAIN :)

    Governments may have reasons for not always telling the truth or for leaving out key elements but, unfortunately, this can lead to the wrong people getting the blame. I also have sound reasons for not naming names; they allow whistle-blowers and others to pass on material about misgovernance and they protect honourable citizens from the attentions of paramilitaries; responsible MSM editors would take a similar line.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Nevin i think i speak for a lot of people here”

    Carl, you seem to be another one intent on pushing this ‘theory’ business. Don’t you feel comfortable when light is shed on the machinations of governments and of paramilitaries, especially the PRM? ;)

    Now Cara McShane, SF councillor and current chair of Moyle DC, would acknowledge that I’ve sometimes given her a hard time on NALIL blog and here on Slugger but, unlike some PRM apologists, she takes a broader view and we’ve collaborated on several issues.

  • FDM

    http://www.meath.ie/Tourism/Heritage/HeritageTrails/AthboyHeritageTrail/

    Athboy tourism is taking no advantage of the massive part that it has played in our history and future?

    Surely we can send them some documentation and get them moving on this.

    I can see this becoming a pilgrimage site for all Irish nationalists, republicans and people who like springs.

    Perhaps the pilgrim faithful will even adorn their bodies with springs as a deep visually symbolic link to the famous meeting between King Dick, Lord Gerrard of Louth and the Earl of Derry.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    FDM, Gerry and Martin might feel a tad sensitive about the colour yellow, if confronted by real republicans ;)

  • FDM

    Marty might be many things but yellow isn’t one of them.

    Gerry neither being an Antrim man and a great lover of the Saffrons.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Slither, FDM? Don’t both have a reputation for slip, sliding away when the going, er, gets a bit too hot?

  • FDM

    Nice snake imagery. Really moves things forward. Gratz.

  • carl marks

    Nevin,
    still no admission that the OO might have to take some of the blame, honestly its truly wonderful how you seem so dedicated to blaming the PRM , how you manage to ignore the fact that the history of OO parades is one of street disturbance.
    Did it ever occur to you that the reason why no one else gives it credence (BBC, CAIN, etc) is that it is only the opinion of a civil servant and while the shinners were only to happy to exploit it, they did not invent it and they could not keep it going if the OO and their loyalist bedfellows behaved like civilised people.
    Really Nevin your myopic view does nobody any favours, until yourself and other unionists recognise that the antics of the hate filled bigots in your community are holding your community back and pretending they don’t contribute to the problem and it’s all Gerry’s fault is leading you down a cul de sac.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “you seem so dedicated to blaming the PRM .. it’s all Gerry’s fault”

    Carl, you seem to have trouble reading the script; I wasn’t blaming Gerry, I was quoting him.

    “it is only the opinion of a civil servant”

    Er, the civil servant supplied the transcript; it was the transcript of part of a press conference broadcast once by BBC NI that involved the then Minister of Foreign Affairs, Dick Spring, and included a BBC journalist Leo Enright.

    “while the shinners were only to happy to exploit it, they did not invent it”

    Well Gerry claimed, in early 1997, that the conspiracy had been worked on for three years ie from 1994, the year of the ‘cessations’. So that’s two years or so before 10 July 1996, the date of the broadcast. As you can see, the transcript was faxed to me on 19 July 1996.

    By mid-day IIRC on 10 July 1996 the BBC broadcast an account that the re-routing decision had been taken by the Chief Constable. However, as I’ve just spotted on the CAIN website, John Bruton essentially confirms Spring’s explanation about who did or did not take the two decisions:

    “I believe that once a government makes a decision in a democracy under the rule of law that it is going to hold a particular line, it must hold that line.”

    The CAIN researcher, in the same section, didn’t spot the significance/nuances of Bruton’s remarks:

    Their response to the Chief Constable’s decision ..

    The briefing is of value, not just for the light it sheds on who made those decisions, but also for revealing the nature of the secret exchanges between the two governments. The latter might have been of more concern to London than the former.

    “Really Nevin your myopic view”

    :)

  • Kevsterino

    Everything is ruined by repetition.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Everything is ruined by repetition.”

    Apparently, for some, Kevsterino, it was the secret of Hume’s greatness ;)

    Miriam O’Callaghan: “His friends call it his “stickability”: logically analysing & understanding not only the problem, but the solution; working out the way forward and repeating it as a mantra, like a teacher, until everyone else saw the light: a formula for peace.”

  • carl marks

    Nevin,
    try this you will find it liberating.
    OO parades have long been a source of street disturbance,
    when loyalists and OO members behave like knuckle draging apes it annoys the people they set out to offend (strange that) so the people they set out to offend get organised and protest,
    the people who provoked the latest protest outside St Pats was not SF but the band who did the secterian Jig and the OO made it worse by defending the band.
    Now i know in Nevin world it is impossible to blame the OO,UVF,Bandsmen,tricolour burners and all blame must be attached to the Anti Christ gerry and of course proof is a briefing given to Dick Spring by a civil servant, but for some reason the rest of the world doesnt seem to accept it as proof that the Shinners are behind all this instead they blame (something you seem incapable off) those who commit the bigoted acts that wind thier nieghbours up.
    now instead of claiming this as a Hume type mantra , try looking at it this way,
    “repeating the same action over and over again and expecting a different result is a sign of insanity”
    Albert Einstien.

    ps .
    good to see you got your blog in early this time

  • FDM

    carl marks 13 August 2013 at 5:51 pm

    That is clearly all lies Carl.

    You are no longer welcome to the annual Athboy festival of politics/fleadh chaired [in a sprung chair] by the Lord of the Dance King Gearoid de Plantername.

    You may not enter the “Lovely Girl” competition [Mary Lou is down to win anyway].

    You are however welcome to participate in the Puc Fada event where you can be the Puc.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “of course proof is a briefing given to Dick Spring by a civil servant”

    Carl, I’m not aware of such a briefing. Have you got a link? ;)

  • carl marks

    Nevin,
    My god your right it was I transcript not a briefing, that of course makes the rest of my post irrelevant don’t you bother yourself trying to get out of the fact that you can’t summon up the moral rectitude to condemn the OO for its regular calculated insults to its nationalist neighbours,
    And don’t be concerned about the regular street violence carried out by loyalists and the fact that so called Christian politician’s turn a blind eye to it as well, if you thing that you’re getting forced into a corner about loyalist/unionist hypocrisy you just blame the media, and PRM maybe supply a link to your blog, but for Christ’s sake don’t you even for one minute entertain the idea that the OO,UVF,DUP,UUP,TUV might have questions to answer.

  • carl marks

    FDM
    “You are however welcome to participate in the Puc Fada event where you can be the Puc.”

    that is the best offer i have had in a long time!

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “My god your right it was I transcript not a briefing”

    Carl, that makes no more sense than your previous comment.

  • Comrade Stalin

    CS, your argument is flaccid; it doesn’t stand up.

    My argument is simply the absence of your argument. Since your own argument is based upon innuendo, exaggeration and plain old doublespeak I think I’m doing alright.

    I’ve presented you with the evidence on numerous occasions but you prefer to name-call :)

    No you haven’t. You’ve presented innuendo and half-truths. But let’s sort this out now. What’s your evidence supporting :

    - Dublin intervention in the Parades Commission
    - The British government making parades decisions and using the Parades Commission to cover these up ?

    Go ahead. I’ll wait.

    Why don’t you ask the BBC and the CAIN folks why they haven’t published the Dick Spring briefing?

    So basically, the case supporting your argument is that the BBC and CAIN are part of a conspiracy to cover up something said by a person who was an Irish government minister 20 years ago ? Do you even know what he said at this alleged “briefing” ?

    [in response to McSlaggart asking : “Lets be clear Tyrone republicans would not need “Dick Spring” help to stop parades. ]

    Really?

    West Tyrone MP Pat Doherty – 09 August 2013 said: “Last night after meetings in Castlederg involving local people and Martin McGuinness a decision was taken to cancel Saturday’s protest [against an Apprentice Boys parade.”

    I’m confused. McSlaggart just made a statement criticizing the idea of Dick Spring being involved and you reply by quoting Pat Doherty talking about Martin McGuinness ? Is this a basic issue with reading comprehension or is there something else going on ?

    A hop, a skip and a jump, Joe, and you’ve gone from Gerry’s conspiracy boast to a theory. Perhaps best to stop digging ;)

    The conspiracy theory – and calling it a theory is a stretch given the shortage of evidence supporting it and indeed the evidence which falsifies it – is your contention that anything happening in the present day, pretty much 20 years after Gerry’s single quote revealing SF’s strategy on parades, is according to a grand plan that involves the British government, the Irish government, CAIN and the BBC.

    As you can see, the transcript was faxed to me on 19 July 1996.

    The transcript has Dick Spring endorsing the British security forces and their response to the parades matter. He also says marches should not pass through areas where the people don’t want them, which these days is a unionist position as well as a nationalist one.

    I’m struggling to find a conspiracy or anything unreasonable in the above. Can you explain where it lies ?

    The briefing is of value, not just for the light it sheds on who made those decisions, but also for revealing the nature of the secret exchanges between the two governments. The latter might have been of more concern to London than the former.

    So the British government ordered the Chief Constable to reroute the Drumcree parade and told the Irish government they had done this.

    Where’s the conspiracy ? What is revealing or interesting here that we did not already know ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Nevin,

    Is this the core of your argument ? My recollection from the mid-1990s, and I have to think back pretty hard, is that nobody attempted to suggest that the Chief Constable made parades decisions independently; I don’t think it was debated at the time that the Drumcree rerouting decisions were taken by the police in concert with the Secretary of State.

    Don’t you recall Mo Mowlam being quoted as saying “there will have to be Orange feet on the Garvaghy Road” ? Where does Dick Spring fit into that ?

    You’ve grabbed onto a tiny slip of a tongue from two decades ago and spun it into an elaborate web of bullshit.

  • Comrade Stalin

    ayeYerMa:

    Comrade Stalin, the only thing the 1913 UVF shares with the ‘troubles’ group of that name is the name itself, was originally and remains an entirely legal non-proscribed organisation, as confirmed numerous times by government .

    The UVF was not legal. Just because it was not proscribed does not mean it was legitimate. It was founded to overthrow Parliament, and that isn’t illegal.

    Though I’m not surprised at the level of ignorance which you have in equating them with every single IRA faction which, unlike the original UVF, were involved in murder and bombing.

    The only reason why the UVF didn’t bomb or shoot anyone is because the government caved into them.

    We do not have devolution as we do not have normal democratic decision-making capability. If the UK government does not address this self-made farce soon, then there is little option but to collapse the talking shop.

    Which is exactly what the dissidents and some elements within Sinn Féin want. Removing that assembly removes the unionist veto and reverts us to a state of rule by decree of the Secretary of State. I mean, this is the arrangement that brought you the Parades Commission, the Anglo Irish Agreement and all that other fun stuff. Is your memory so short that you think a return to this configuration – angering the British in the process – is doing to increase support or sympathy for unionists ?

    Think about it. Why would the DUP or UUP continue to support devolution if they believed that it did not benefit them ? This stuff is not rocket science.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “You’ve presented innuendo and half-truths.”

    Oh dear, back to your earlier man-playing, CS :(

    “Do you even know what he said at this alleged “briefing” ?”

    Er, it’s in the transcript.

    Given the quality of that pitch, it’s likely that the rest of the convoluted narrative isn’t worth deciphering.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    That is a pretty odd interpretation of “manplaying”.
    The truth can hurt.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “The truth can hurt.”

    Joe, it would be rather difficult to extract the truth from CS’s convoluted narrative … So I don’t think I’ll bother.

    Man-playing? Personal abuse? Not exactly civil discourse :)

  • Kevsterino

    I think as long as he talks about what you’re presenting, he is playing the ball.

    Unless man-playing has a Northern Irish connotation I’m not privy to.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    All politicians try to exploit weaknesses in their opponents policies, arguments etc. That is one of the main things that they all do. So, every time a politician or political party does that, are we expected to go around repeating “conspiracy” ad nauseum. It wouldn’t leave much time to have a rational discussion.

  • mac tire

    @Nevin
    “…it would be rather difficult to extract the truth from CS’s convoluted narrative … So I don’t think I’ll bother.”

    How could you possibly know this one post is convoluted unless you read it?

    At least give CS the benefit of a reply…if you have one.

  • USA

    Match Report:
    Following their 4-0 defeat by Carl Marks Utd, Nevin FC has an uphill battle in next weeks 2nd leg match to be played in Ballcastle. Two own goals, an open net tap in and a spectacular overhead volley left the North Antrim men needing a map to find their way home……

  • paulG

    thethoughtfulone,

    “Dirty certainly, but I wouldn’t call hiding several hundred yards away on the end of a command wire putting “their lives on the line””

    Risk of accidental detonation, risk of detonation due to Agent or SAS tampering, risk of SAS ambush, risk of checkpoints, risk of army patrol whilst planting the bomb.

    An IRA member would have been about 10 times more likely to be killed in a given year than a member of the security forces and 5 times that probability of being jailed for 20 to life.They’d likely get one or the other within 5 years.

    I would say that they were putting their lives on the line.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    And now the FM seems to have changed his mind about the redevelopment of the Maze site.
    Tit for Tat is alive and well. It must always be a zero sum game, it seems. And lots of pot kettle black.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23706899

  • redstar2011

    He has outmanouvered the Shinners to shore up his own support

  • FDM

    The DUP to demonstrate they are doing something to reverse the series of defeats they have been taking have decided that they aren’t interested in peace anymore.

    This is the end.

  • redstar2011

    Surely from a Republican perspective it yet again underlines the farce up at Stormont

    SF are being taken for a ride and are only allowed to ” progress” at whatever speed Dup allow.

    No wonder less and less, particularly amongst young Republicans give Stormont credence or vote

  • Reader

    FDM: This is the end.
    It doesn’t look like the end. It doesn’t even look like the beginning of the end, unless the end will manifest itself through terminal boredom.
    Somehow, I doubt that the republican movement(s) will go back to war over delays in agreeing a development plan for the Maze site. The frog is cooked.
    redstar2011: No wonder less and less, particularly amongst young Republicans give Stormont credence or vote
    Irrelevant, since they are tied up celebrating online battles that go unnoticed outside their bubble. Once there is a cure for testosterone the peace process will be complete. After another 20 years of tedium we might actually be ready for real politics.

  • FDM

    Reader. Interesting that you can tell a Republican how he should feel. This is the end of the peace process.

  • Reader

    FDM: Interesting that you can tell a Republican how he should feel.
    I only made a prediction about (in)action. Maybe it was my reference to ‘tedium’ you were referring to. Certainly that’s my own feelin about the fools on the hill.
    But, if I may ask a question for once – you said “This is the end of the peace process.” without specifying whether that means we fall backwards, drift forwards, or stand still. I can’t even tell if the end of the peace process means the end of (relative) peace in your view. Will you expand on your statement?

  • FDM

    @Reader

    I think it is the end of the idea that we could actually have a peace with unionism.

    Unionism has proven from 1922-1972, in 1974 and now in 2013 that it CAN NOT bring itself to share power with the CNR community. It has absolutely no intention of attempting to form any meaningful agreement with said CNR community.

    In short it has no intention of changing its ways. By doing this they have consigned themselves to the past.

    We should forget about them and move on. Like I wrote, somewhat prophetically, yesterday we need to be “the wave” that washes over and around the impasse.

  • paulG

    Tit for Tat?

    I thought the quid pro quo for the Maze was SF looking the other way while the DUP continued to Gerrymander North Belfast housing and thereby the votes that keep Doddsy in the comfort to which he has become accustomed.

    Don’t suppose they can block that now. SF left looking like Tits alright, but not even being offered some old Tat.

    Does Peter really think he can share power and shaft his partner like this. He’s no Iris and Martin’s no Peter!

  • redstar2011

    Well he does and he has

    Lets be honest- the next time FM and Dfm are rolled out to announce they have agreed x y or z what confidence can we have it will stick

    Ffs Shinners if you’ve any self respect call it a day

    You’re going to look like a pathetic needy wife who hangs in there even though she knows hubbys cheating

  • paulG

    redstar,

    Agreed, the FM, the DUP and anybody who vouches for them or keeps them in Government, now has a massive credibility problem.

  • Mc Slaggart

    I do not understand the Royal Black sending the Donegal bands to the shores of Lough Neagh when they have a parade in Castlederg?

    What it does show is that even the Royal Black make a distinction in events occurring in East Tyrone and West Tyrone….

    “Ballyronan, on the shores of Lough Neagh, is the venue for the Co Londonderry and Co Donegal parade”

    … “while the border town of Castlederg will host the west Tyrone parade of 28 preceptories and bands.”

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/life/loyal-orders/the-twelfth-2013/royal-black-parades-take-place-1-5443740