Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

The judges are right to speak out against coat trailing politicians

Sat 9 March 2013, 12:17pm

The sequence of empty complaints  led by Peter Robinson  about the “perceptions”  of partiality in the granting of bail  only risks creating more trouble for the police and the courts to deal with,  witness Glengormley last night.  The gurning is unlikely to have the slightest effect on the PSNI and the judiciary. This is not because of unreasonable stubbornness on their part but due to the poverty of the criticisms.

For the first time that I can recall the judges have hit back in (for them)  forthright fashion.  The judiciary suffered as so-called legitimate targets throughout the Troubles. They are unlikely to be intimidated by anything that can be thrown at them now.  As Liam Clarke’s report implies, the public have good reason to be grateful to David Ford and the Alliance party for holding onto the Justice portfolio even as they continue to suffer outrageous attacks on their persons and premises.

The unsuccessful bail application by the flags protestor Jamie Bryson was the latest occasion for a judge to take the rare course of speaking out against the criticisms of politicians.         

  Mr Justice McCloskey refused bail after backing prosecution submissions that the accused might re-offend or incite others to do so.

“The applicant, who has openly evaded and obstructed the police previously, thereby showing no regard at all for the criminal justice system, may by virtue of that conduct repeat his previous behaviour of this kind,” he said.

In his ruling the judge stressed that every bail application was different.

He said anyone attempting to compare cases had a responsibility to ensure they were fully informed of all the facts, circumstances and merits.

A proper comparison can take place only in a courtroom, he said.

Mr Justice McCloskey warned: “Where there is ill-informed debate involving comparisons between individual cases this simply engenders confusion and misunderstanding.

“It can also have very serious consequences. It can serve to jeopardise the delicate balance of the separation of powers between the judiciary and government and in doing so it can under-mine the rule of law
itself.”

This stiff warning underlines the position of the whole judiciary, as expressed in a letter on behalf of the Lord Chief Justice Sir Declan Morgan to the chair of the Assembly Justice Committee Paul Givan.

That produced  this lame  reply from the FM:

“I hold the same view as the Lord Chief Justice that judges should therefore be free to act independently without improper influence.

“I hold the same position with respect to the operational independence of the police but that core principle does not remove the requirement to ensure concerns are addressed and decisions taken by the police and the judiciary are explained, especially when they lead to public disquiet

Well,  the judges  and Matt Baggot have given you answers, Peter. What have you and the egregious Sammy  got to say now that lives up to your responsibilities  as ministers and leaders of opinion? Who do you think you are impressing with your complaints? The loyalists of East Belfast and the rioters from  north Belfast?   We all know that riot control is an imperfect science but are  you really speaking for the unionist majority? Even in a narrow political sense, what have you got to gain by stoking up a confrontation with the justice system for which  you are supposed to have  overall governmental  responsibility?

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Comments (261)

  1. DC (profile) says:

    i think you wrongly associate me with wrong doing, i on the other hand want those ‘chaps’ that have threatened Willy Frazer to be apprehended and called to account.

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  2. DC (profile) says:

    This for all those under anti-republican lockdown:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWZSkCyZPI

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  3. DC (profile) says:

    Or – more correctly, this is for those on anti-loyalist lock down:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAWZSkCyZPI

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  4. tacapall (profile) says:

    I dont associate you with any wrong doing DC but seeing as you are avoiding answering questions around the facts about Frazer putting Catholic men women and children’s lives in danger with some of his outbursts then whats the point in anyone else answering questions about alleged threats to Frazers life in a propaganda video made by himself that viewers can hear insulting remarks and what you would call threats, but I never heard anyone actually threaten his life, and you cant actually see anyone issuing them, Willie could have got any Joe Bloggs to say that and record it over the top of that video.

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  5. DC (profile) says:

    Dunno then, but at this late hour i can say is that your hearing is shot?:

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  6. Submariner (profile) says:

    DC where to begin with this. Willie Taser was told by a judge to apply for bail and Willie refused therefore the only person to blame is Willie. Secondly a Taser is what’s known as a prohibited weapon and therfore there is no excuse for having one and im under threat wont wash with the courts. As regards the issue of Willie being denied a gun licence by the PSNI the fact that Willie is a self confessed supporter of loyalist terrorists having openly stated to the media that loyalists should not have been sent to jail should immediately disbarr him from obtaining one. The PSNI refused to grant him a licence due to according to police his close link’s to loyalist terrorists. Now is it your contention the police ignore his having a prohibited weapon because he maybe under threat and that he should be able to get a firearms licence despite his associations with loyalist terrorists?

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  7. tacapall (profile) says:

    “Its a long way home” is a threat on a persons life ! Thanks for the tune Im sure like most loyalists you are confused around who actually fought under the union jack and who was actually financing King Billy’s war but you keep fooling yourself that you are loyal to the crown just like at the Boyne. If Willie Frazer wasn’t a sectarian bigot he would maybe get some sympathy but the facts prove otherwise so he in the best place for someone like him.

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  8. Alias (profile) says:

    “Willie is a self confessed supporter of loyalist terrorists”

    That should qualify him for the role of Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland.

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  9. Jack2 (profile) says:

    Alias:

    http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49082000/jpg/_49082629_wrightmcrea.jpg

    In this sordid tale there is more than enough mud to fling around.

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  10. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Reader

    “That’s about it.”

    So as long as there was a piece of paper somewhere that said the United Kingdom of GB and NI you would be happy?

    So I guess you will be happy with the following as long as the constitutional link remains.

    1. MMcG as first minister.
    2. Sinn Fein as the largest party and nationalist led local government over Northern Ireland.
    3. An Irish tricolour flying over Stormont, all city halls and all city buildings 365.
    4. The banning of the Orange Order, membership becoming a criminal offence.
    5. The full prosecution of individuals from state or state-run-paramiliataries for crimes committed during and after the troubles.
    6. Maximum cross-jurisdictional cooperation with the Irish Republic.
    7. An Irish Language Act, with all documentation, placenames and streets to be dual language. Helped by enforcing the learning of the langauge in all state-funded schools to age 16. Enforced media output quotas in Irish language, as for instance happens in France[with the French language].
    8. The end to partionist sports teams. Like rugby, one team to represent the island in all representative sport.
    9. The NHS remains, in fact strengthened by local initiatives. Full joined-up thinking with ROI.
    10. The complete removal of all British armed forces and security services [MI5/MI6/whomever] from Northern Ireland.
    11. The permanent closure of any army/navy/airforce facilities within the region leading to a completely demilitarised zone.
    12. The installation of more relaxed laws regarding abortion.
    13. The removal of the creationist claptrap from the Causeway, museums and curricula.
    14. Increased secularisation of our government and civil service infrastructure.
    15. The adoption of the Euro [or dual curency] in the region to assist in European trading.
    16. The enforcement of SI units and measures to conform to Euro trading partner standards.
    17. A truth and reconciliation body to allow the open investigation of the past and the involvement of all the protagonists.
    18. Integration of the emergency services, customs, and police on the island as a whole.

    Much if not all of that is on the way. You being single issue on the constitutional link then I don’t think you can really object?

    Lastly you said that you were “Unionist” and qualified that by saying you were single issue constitutional link only. Yet you admit that you generally vote Alliance, who are in fact publically neutral on the Union.

    Don’t you think given the clear conflict there between calling yourself a single issue “Unionist” and not actually voting for a “Unionist” party means that you either a) aren’t really a “Unionist” and need a new handle or b) you need to find a different party to house your vote?

    Just saying that your politics and your voting seems paradoxical???

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  11. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    “city buildings 365″, should read “civic buildings”

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  12. Reader (profile) says:

    FDM, what a mish mash. You do seem to have a fondness for suppression. Anyway, here goes. I believe the union depends on a possible future referendum, and not on the unionist parties, so I vote for who I like and who I trust and not for the flag wavers. We have *actual* issues to deal with instead.
    Dealing with your list 3 points at a time:
    I don’t care who is FM; The largest party of government is irrelevant; you can replace the union flag with the tricolour when you have a United Ireland. I am sure you will.
    The notion of banning the OO is as ridiculous as it is offensive – do you also wish to ban it outside Northern Ireland? Prosecute as you wish – however, I don’t think Scap is coming home; I am a long term supporter of East-West cooperation.
    Irish language Act – are you paying? If rugby set a better example of parity of esteem it would be easier to sell the notion to other sports. (at a very low level in sport I have represented Ireland); I support the NHS.
    British forces are stationed across the UK, so why would they leave here?; I am pro-choice, though I think relaxing the restrictions would have to come by imposition from the UK – where else could it come from?
    Removing the claptrap is a good idea, but then why is it called the “Giant’s Causeway”? I have no idea what issues you have with the government and CC infrastructure – do you want to sack people with religious beliefs or what? Convince me that there would be a net benefit to us from accepting the Euro.
    I’m a fan of SI units, though I am still fond of pints and miles.
    I’m OK with truth and reconciliation, but dead against amnesties – do you have specific proposals? Integrating the services looks interesting, so long as they are enforcing common laws. The legal profession in the RoI will need substantial retraining. And is the blue-flu infectious?

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  13. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    “you can replace the union flag with the tricolour when you have a United Ireland”

    So not when it is the will of the majority of the people here? Democracy?

    “The notion of banning the OO is as ridiculous as it is offensive” and yet they have been banned before as a seditious organisation. Open to correction? So something based in fact is somehow “ridiculous”. Do the majority of the people want their destructive and destabilising influence on our society to pervade? Democracy?

    “Irish language Act – are you paying?” Well I pay lots of personal taxes, my companies pay lots of corporation tax. Can’t a little of it be redirected from buying missiles to exterminate Afghan kids to pay for my native langauge? Just a thought.

    “British forces are stationed across the UK, so why would they leave here?” They serve no useful purpose in the region and are infact destabilising. How much does it cost to house 5,000-10,000 troops and their anciliary staff here across a number of large bases? How much does it cost to house MI5/MI6 etc… Lets save the taxpayer some money and send them back to Blighty. Additionally if the majority of the people in the region say they don’t want them here? Democracy?

    “I think relaxing the restrictions would have to come by imposition from the UK”. I don’t think abdicating our responsibilities to Nigel from Northampton is very grown-up.

    “do you want to sack people with religious beliefs”. No but their religious dogma must not be the law, or pratice of the law or civil governance or indeed govern their personal official conduct. That must be non-religious.

    “Do you have specific proposals?” Yes. Can we prosecute all the people that we have evidence of their guilt first? We already have procedures in place for dealing with sentences for historic cases under the agreements that were put in place in the 90s. That alone is going to result in a large number of soldiers, police, securocrats and loyalist paramiltaries going to jail and rightly so. Beyond that I actually believe there should be an amnesty if they provide information about historic crimes. The either cough it up or do the bird. Up to them.

    “The legal profession in the RoI will need substantial retraining.” They operate a similar common-civil law blend so I don’t think it would be too much of a jump for their legals.

    I think the general theme there Reader is that “when the terrible UI vote happens you can do what you like” but until that time the will of the majority of the people must be suspended on your insistence to retain the status quo. See when you really pick at it the “constitutional link only” crap it is just the front cover of a whole document full of your demands. You also don’t seem to be too much of a democrat given your answers above?

    I can tell you that the will of the majority of the people here will prevail. You won’t be allowed to hold up progress. You have no veto over change.

    This place is changing and hiding behind the benign “Unionist” shield isn’t going to cut it anymore. You can see there that you are clearly carrying a lot of baggage on your shoulders, rather than the light, hip and pretty “constitutional link only” bumbag.

    Time to cut the crap and ditch the heavy bags?

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  14. DC (profile) says:

    Right folks OK – be honest here – after lengthy discussions about this i think we can rule out Jamie Bryson in getting bail, but leaving aside all your bias and prejudices, don’t you think Willie Frazer should have got bail?

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  15. DC (profile) says:

    taser or not.

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  16. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    Talk about beating the long dead donkey.

    I think Wullie is best using this time to get the remission of his sentence after he is convicted and jailed.

    Surely the wider fleg protestors and their apologists should be introspective about using such a clearly damaged and vulnerable individual and collectively putting him in the position he is now in?

    Is your whining on this board an expression of your own personal shame for letting some other poor bugger carry the can by proxy for the outworkings of your collective raging on the streets and on the forums?

    Do you feel some measure of responsibility and that is what is causing the angst?

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  17. DC (profile) says:

    I haven’t been raging on the street nor on forums.

    I like to stick up for the underdog with a good cause, who has been stigmatised as he is a loyalist and loyalism is unsexy, the guy should have got bail given his cancer treatment etc, he obviously is passionate about certain victims and certain constitutional symbols. He is entitled to speak up for victims and poke certain people and politicians in the eye to call attention to certain political issues.

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  18. tacapall (profile) says:

    I think they should release him from Maghaberry DC then immediately re-arrest him under the mental health act and put him in a secure hospital where he can receive the treatment he needs for his cancer and his pathological hatred of Catholics. Would you not agree Catholics in this part of the world would be a lot safer with this geezer locked up

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  19. DC (profile) says:

    Well let’s see what happens, apparently his bail hearing is underway at the moment.

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  20. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    “I haven’t been raging on the … forums.”

    —————–

    Tell me you weren’t angry when you wrote half of that guff?

    “stigmatised as he is a loyalist”

    A loyalist with stigmata now that really would be lesser spotted Ulster.

    “loyalism is unsexy”.

    http://www.demotix.com/photo/1837593/loyalist-flag-protesters-confront-police-belfast

    Boy when you are right, you are right. Sexy eh?

    Bail decisions are not yours to make.

    Why not get out on the street and carry Wullies cross for him if you feel that strongly?

    You can use your keyboard as a shield.

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  21. DC (profile) says:

    Willie Frazer has got bail, four conditions attached.

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  22. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    Willie Frazer has got bail, four conditions attached.

    ————————–

    Is the first condition that he doesn’t taser anyone?

    And are the other 3 conditions that you stop whinging?

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  23. DC (profile) says:

    @FDM – yes that’s me, job done, I will now scuttle off into the night.

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  24. tacapall (profile) says:

    Whats the conditions DC ?

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  25. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Here’s a link to the bail conditions on BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21788932

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  26. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Is DC’s gagging order in the appendix to the decision?

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  27. GEF (profile) says:

    ‘Jamie Biryani’. moved to loyalist wing of prison for ‘safety’
    http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/jamie-bryson-moved-to-loyalist-wing-of-prison-for-safety-1-4895081&sa=U&ei=f9dBUf3BG4PFPei5gNAP&ved=0CCUQqQIoADAA&usg=AFQjCNHFxy5fXzipZ93leMBEAZvEITuCCw

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  28. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    One of the restrictions on Willie seems rather daft. As reported in the Newsletter: “The conditions are that Mr Frazer must live at his home in Markethill, is prohibited from posting on social networking webs before or after flag protests, is not allowed within 1.6kms of any protest, demonstration or procession and must not attend any of these and that he must report to a police station at a set time each week.

    Posting on social media before or after flag protests? When is it not before or after a flag protest? During a flag protest?

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  29. DC (profile) says:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=fXQYQx4s1fQ&list=UUGskkUYuxQtdMOapwIWxByA#t=192s

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  30. Submariner (profile) says:

    DC are you serious? that clip shows Willie up for the twisted nut job that he is. Accusing the cops of working for the IRA and of stealing his camera. He was told he was being stopped and searched under sect24 of the justice and security act yet continued to accuse the cops of aiding the IRA.

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  31. Reader (profile) says:

    FDM: 3. An Irish tricolour flying over Stormont, all city halls and all city buildings 365.
    Reader : “you can replace the union flag with the tricolour when you have a United Ireland”
    FDM: So not when it is the will of the majority of the people here? Democracy?
    I think you are being a bit silly here. Not everyone who would vote for a United Ireland would share your wish to fly the Tricolour over all City (civic?) buildings every day of the year. Obviously you would have a United Ireland first. Is that not challenge enough?
    FDM: (re. abortion law) : I don’t think abdicating our responsibilities to Nigel from Northampton is very grown-up.
    Do you have a better plan? Do you have a party that will deliver? Be realistic – I’m not standing in your way, your own tribal parties are.
    FDM: Well I pay lots of personal taxes, my companies pay lots of corporation tax. Can’t a little of it be redirected from buying missiles to exterminate Afghan kids to pay for my native langauge?
    You must be paying US taxes then. Or if it’s just a bit of hyperbole over the UK’s rather more limited operations in the region, why not get your MP to demand a bit of disarmament and a bigger subvention to NI? Nigel from Northampton may help.
    FDM: I think the general theme there Reader is that “when the terrible UI vote happens you can do what you like” but until that time the will of the majority of the people must be suspended on your insistence to retain the status quo.
    If you get your majority, you will have your United Ireland. What *other* majority are you referring to?

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  32. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    DC, I think I would give the recorded cop a medal for forbearance.

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  33. As has been mentioned many times before, being paranoid doesn’t necessarily mean that they aren’t out to get you. LOL

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  34. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Reader

    “Not everyone who would vote for a United Ireland would share your wish to fly the Tricolour over all”

    Ah, ah, naughty man. I never said that was a wish list of mine. I just proposed it as a list of some possible and some very possible future scenarios. I did this as a means to highlight your own wishlist which is longer than my weekly shopping and not the single issue “constitutional link only” tosh that you had stated previously.

    Lets hit the main error in your logic. You presume the following “If you get your majority, you will have your United Ireland… What *other* majority are you referring to”

    A very simplistic [and convenient] view of a majority.

    You could have a nationalist majority in the north who want to vote in a nationalist majority governance in the north, but who don’t immediately wish to opt for a UI. Why not have a sustained period of nationalist dominated politics in the north? Nationalists will have a majority in the local government in the near future. It is the reason why the DUP are trying to pump some life back into the UUP [six of the UUP MLAs came through on the last count at the previous election- think of the shift of power if they implode]. Many of the things on your “Unionist” shopping list are going to get a line put through them when the shift of power occurs. At which point you will probably have even the DUP clamouring for a UI referendum for Dubs to save them from those pesky Shinners.

    “You must be paying US taxes then”.
    Those hellfire missiles that the UK Apache longbows and RAF UAV predators fire are about £45,000 per shot. You know the ones that Prince Harry has used to kill people with, which he admitted to. The army also use the AT4 with High explosive rounds at around 10k a pop. I guess the point you are making is that the British Army haven’t and are not killing civvies in Afghanistan. I hope a fire extinguisher is on hand for your underwear.

    The overarching point seems to be Reader old stick is that you underline the proposal that I evidenced about the use of the term “Unionist”. It simply doesn’t adequately describe your real agenda, which sampling above includes a) democracy only starts when we vote for a UI b) british flags all over the place [and certainly no irish ones] c) unquestioned support for the British armed forces no matter who they are wasting this week and d) no recognition of the Irish people who live in this region of Ireland and their identity at any level [until of course they vote for a UI].

    Thank goodness we got that sorted out. Any other “Unionists” out there want to play my Q&A game?

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  35. Reader (profile) says:

    FDM: You could have a nationalist majority in the north who want to vote in a nationalist majority governance in the north, but who don’t immediately wish to opt for a UI.
    Why call then “nationalist” then? First you say unionists don’t support the union, then that nationalists won’t choose a United Ireland. Is it that you see even your own side as essentially tribalist? I give the electorate more credit than I give their politicians.
    FDM: It is the reason why the DUP are trying to pump some life back into the UUP [six of the UUP MLAs came through on the last count at the previous election- think of the shift of power if they implode].
    The DUP are cunning but short-sighted and are finishing off the UUP right now. That’s what a policy of agreed candidates does to a second place party in FPP elections. And the SDLP dodged a bullet in Fermanagh last time round, but SF will watch and learn.

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  36. Neil (profile) says:

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/headlines/video-willie-frazer-says-no-cause-is-worth-prison-1-4900561

    Anyone thinking of going out to break the law for their cause should think again, says Willie Frazer.

    Fresh from prison after being released on bail on Thursday afternoon, the 52-year-old visited the News Letter office to tell of his time in Maghaberry, and urged anyone considering committing an offence not to do so.

    The Ulster People’s Forum member, from Markethill, said his fortnight in prison was enough to put him off.

    “It is certainly not (an experience) I’d recommend,” he said, just hours after being bailed. “Any young fella that’s thinking of getting himself into trouble, don’t, it’s not worth it. No matter what the cause is, going to jail and ruining your life for the rest of your days is not worth it.

    Bit of a volte face, but better late than never.

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  37. Yes. Kudos to him for suggesting to youths and young girls that lawbreaking sometimes isn’t worth the damage it can do to your long term prospects of prospering. It’s a shame that it took two weeks on remand, which isn’t nice, to bring him to that realization. There have been too many “godfathers” destroying the prospects for young folks by bringing them on to the streets or worse, inducting them into murder organizations.

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  38. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Reader

    “Why call then “nationalist” then? First you say unionists don’t support the union, then that nationalists won’t choose a United Ireland.”

    The point is I can draw on examples taken not just from this region but from other parts of the world.

    The Parti Québécois, a Quebec nationalist party have the largest presence in their parliament. Coalition Avenir Québec are also a self-described Quebec nationalist party. Québec solidaire are an independence nationalist party in the region. Together those three parties represent 60% of the elected representatives. Yet they haven’t opted for independence from Canada, yet. They have decided upon a stabilisation period of nationalist led governance prior to making that step.

    Nationalism in the north of Ireland will go in this same direction. A stabilisation period of sustained governance and change prior to a UI transition. It is going to be deeply ironic that prayers to save “Unionists” from a United Ireland are going to be answered by First Minister Martin McGuinness and Justice Minister Gerry Kelly…

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  39. DC (profile) says:

    Now is it your contention the police ignore his having a prohibited weapon because he maybe under threat and that he should be able to get a firearms licence despite his associations with loyalist terrorists?

    You would think given these alleged ‘associations’ that Willie Frazer wouldn’t need to apply legally for a firearms licence given he should be able to get his hands on guns illegally as a result of these ‘associations’.

    I think the term ‘associations’ is a weasel word to give the impression he could be connected to loyalist terrorism, probably as a result of Willie Frazer having lots of loyalist friends and then this being overplayed and used to paint some sort of picture of him as a would-be closet terrorist.

    His car was searched last year and now his house recently, no firearms found nor any hidden loyalist arsenal, except for some old old stun gun.

    What do you think?
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  40. …old old stun gun…
    Don’t be so disingenuous, DC. If it didn’t work he wouldn’t have needed it.
    Would you be so easy going about people associating with IRA terrorists having WW2 era Lee Enflelds in their attics?

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  41. DC (profile) says:

    Joe

    He needs something to protect him from extreme northern republicans:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=H7SvaXsZaRQ#t=101s

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  42. DC,

    The “something” that the rest of us have to use is the PSNI. When I lived over there, I received a threat from an organization that thought that I shouldn’t be living in “their” area. Needless to say, I did not get a personal protection firearms licence.

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  43. DC (profile) says:

    Well sure the PSNI turned up and just took a picture of Willie in his car.

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  44. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    He needs something to protect him from extreme northern republicans…

    ——————————

    Simply put how can you post gospels according to Wullie and expect to be taken seriously?

    The poor man needs help, as does anyone who takes what he says seriously.

    What do you think?
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  45. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    FDM,

    I have to say I’m a bit confused. You’ve been arguing that anyone who doesn’t support a united Ireland must be a unionist. Now you’re saying (quite correctly) that a bunch of nationalists are probably going to vote to retain the union. Doesn’t that make them unionists in your book ? Can you please pick a world view or an opinion and stick to it, or at least spend a bit of quality time thinking it through ?

    Regarding your wish list posted above, most of the things you mention are not going to happen. The system up at the Assembly prevents one side from imposing anything on the other, so you’re not going to have an Irish language act, language quotas or any of that other ridiculous bullshit because the petition of concern will be used to stop any of it happening. And it’s a good thing too, because your wish list reads like nothing other than kulturkampf to me, the workings of a totalitarian mindset. You’re going to essentially use the state to force your plastic and utterly fake idea of Irishness on everyone. Nobody wants any of that bullshit, not even most nationalists.

    I must say though, it’s interesting to see confirmation once again that some nationalists are just as majoritarian as unionists are and they have no plans to respect parity of esteem when the roles in this place are reversed. Didn’t you realize that all of the checks and balances that were introduced to protect nationalists will apply to a future unionist minority too ?

    What do you think?
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  46. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @CS

    “I have to say I’m a bit confused.”

    No harm CS but that admission doesn’t surprise me.

    “You’ve been arguing that anyone who doesn’t support a united Ireland must be a unionist.”

    If you could just point me to where I said that, I would be grateful.

    “Doesn’t that make them unionists in your book.”

    I told you, though you refuse to listen, there are very few “real” unionists. I would say that less than 5% of people who call themselves “unionist” are actually so. The rest are protestant nationalist. So again what you are saying is totally confused, as if you have read nothing I have written. No surprise there. Irish nationalists similarly have a very wide agenda, not just the UI question.

    “most of the things you mention are not going to happen”. I think you should have added the “please lord” as a post script there.

    “The system up at the Assembly”. This the same assembly the DUP are a hairs breadth from bringing down? Then we enter the “all bets are off stage”. I would see a sequence of renegotiations [over time] as inevitable at this point. The position of protestant nationalists weakening with time will have its effects on the outcomes of those negotiations.

    “you’re not going to have an Irish language act or any of that other ridiculous bullshit”. How generous of you to call someones language “ridiculous bullshit”. I hear Jim Allister has a similar line calling it “Leprechaun Langauge”. I hear they are still recruiting unstructured foaming at the mouth bigots? I read what you write and I see so little blue water between your words and extreme protestant nationalist thinking.

    “kulturkampf…totalitarian”. Read: You are all nazis.

    “your plastic and utterly fake idea of Irishness”. You are all plastic paddies I tell ya! Not really within your gift to tell me what I am or what I am not. I could care less about the opinion of someone like your good self. It hacks protestant nationalists off no-end that the CNR community get to forge their own future now. Wonderous is it not?

    “Nobody wants any of that bullshit, not even most nationalists.” Probably shouldn’t have negotiated for it in the GFA then, like the language act.

    “Didn’t you realize that all of the checks and balances that were introduced to protect nationalists will apply to a future unionist minority too” If this region were in some kind of equilibirum position, where the position of both communities within it were in balance, you would be right. Unfortunately they are not and you are again [now theres a shocker] wrong. We have to balance the place.

    Majoritarianism? Isn’t that called ‘democracy’ in many countries? It is clear we need to rebalance our environment to make sure that the CNR community are properly represented. Hence there will be significant changes. The PUL community will not be allowed to prevent the change processes. They are necessary.

    Now CS it seems to me that you are the kind of person who would say anything, twist anything, skew anything to attempt to achieve some kind of Pyhrric outcome. Its just that you don’t take on board what people express to you. You talk in circles. You express very little of what I would call “sense” in your vain and increasingly pathetic attempts to win an argument. The point is CS is I am bored with it. For the last time therefore. If you can’t stick to the core of the debate then forget it. If you are not going to read what people have taken the time to write as a response to you then forget it. If you can’t respond without insulting individuals then forget it. If you can’t make a response without disparaging an entire people then forget it. Moreover if you can’t get beyond what is eating you about a particular section of the community then what can you possibly hope to achieve from interacting with them? At the minute all you are doing is lashing out at individuals and the CNR community as a whole, who you openly malign above. You achieve nothing. What can you possibly get out of this?

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  47. DC (profile) says:

    The poor man needs help, as does anyone who takes what he says seriously.

    Ann Travers said on Twitter that Willie is a brave man, i agree with her btw – but is she mad?

    I liked what he had to say when confronting those ones out protesting on the road in Newry last November after Prison Officer Black’s murder, he shot up in my estimations after that:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7SvaXsZaRQ

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  48. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    I think in terms of real insight this guy has it down when it comes to the #flegs issue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okqEVeNqBhc

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  49. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Credible #flegs issue leadership?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ

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  50. DC (profile) says:

    FDM – you on the green Guinness?

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  51. GavBelfast (profile) says:

    “I would say that less than 5% of people who call themselves “unionist” are actually so.”

    Would you indeed!

    Personally, I’m reading beyond your drivel and enjoying the comedic value of your musings. Great entertainment!

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  52. It’s pretty common for people to label themselves. It’s downright arrogant, perhaps even rude, to tell them that they have got it wrong and that you have a better name for them.
    We get that occasionally on Slugger, people telling those that call themselves “British” that they aren’t really.

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  53. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Mister_Joe

    We get that occasionally on Slugger, people telling those that call themselves “British” that they aren’t really.
    ————————————
    Errm no did’nt do that. I supported my proposition with evidence. You know. Events, actions, peoples words etc… Terribly inconvenient, but hey thats me. I like to base things in fact and not bullshit. Please take note.

    Have no idea what point you are trying to make you would have to evidence it please?

    Lets be very clear so simple people understand.

    Please evidence where I said that certain people weren’t British and some were?

    Please provide one of those really enigmatic “you can read both ways” replys so we may laugh at you in your clear difficulty.

    Off you go.

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  54. FDM,
    I was offering that as an example not as an accusation about you. Sorry if I’m misunderstood. You can laugh all you want. No skin off my nose.

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  55. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Mister_Joe

    FDM,
    I was offering that as an example.
    —————————————
    Please to show the example? Elucidate for the dim.

    Please to show the relevance to ANYTHING I have posted?

    Please to show it clearly.

    We would not want you to be shown in a bad light.

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  56. DC (profile) says:

    Willie Frazer makes his first video, post bail:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grd7B0mHkYo

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  57. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    Look I could pick it apart, dare me! Poor man, needs help.

    He has never been wrong in “14/16″ years….

    Can he do my pools coupon next week?

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  58. DC (profile) says:

    Great guy, great entertainment and he makes some good points. I particularly liked his video serving the writ on Martin McGuinness, the video of him in his APC in a barn came a close second!

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  59. Paranoia is so unbecoming.

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  60. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @DC

    Wilie Frazer: “Great guy.”

    DC I was wondering if you could give us a few words on Wullies links to Larry Pratt, the Ku Klux Klan and Aryan Nation?

    Perhaps also some comment on his associations with loyalist terrorists, which caused him to be refused a firearms license. Remembering of course that Willie is on record as saying that such loyalist terrorists “should never have been locked up in the first place”.

    Additonally if you provide some insight into why Wullie was asked to hand back 350,000pounds to the EU? Everything above board there? A situation which has forced his removal from a directors position with FAIR.

    Given Wullie is so ardent in the defence of Ulster can I ask where he was when the bullets were flying? All I can see is some week-end warrior playing at soldiers. No bottle?

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  61. DC (profile) says:

    Look at this, seriously this stuff is gold dust!

    Willie Frazer at his best: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x4kjUJPml7s

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