Do all Nationalists believe in “what’s bad for you is good for us…”

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I’d be the first to point out that FitzJamesHorse is blogger, and therefore on some level not real. He’s a nice to meet, if a little prickly in his online persona. But I was struck by this post from a few days ago by the bald statement it contains

Thats the thing. The Culture Wars in the USA have been won by the Civil Rights movement and lost by the right wing racists. Likewise…as last years Olympics showed British multiculturalism has won out over the British racism.

Now….they haven’t gone away ya know. There will always be Racism. There will always be Sectarianism. But ..? The lesson is that the Ku Klux Klan …for example… have been exiled to the margins off Civilisd Society. We should do the same with the Orange Order….then be nice to them.

,

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    oneill

    “Please show me on the McGurks thread where a unionist condemned the attack, and perhaps you could also show me the unionist condemnation of the recent fleg protests and the violence that accompanied them.”

    Unionism, in all its mysterious myriad forms, exists beyond the Slugger comment zone.

    In your original comment, you implied that all Unionists on Slugger and elsewhere sing from the same hymnbook; if you move beyond Slugger and read some other material online you will see quite clearly that they don’t. But you don’t seem to have the inclination to want to do that.

    As I said in my original comment, perhaps FJH is right and the cultural war is well under way and is one which nationalism believes it must win for whatever reason.

    The concept of collective “community” responsibility and the corresponding blackening of all pro-Union follk because of the actions of some is obviously now considered fair tactics in that war.

    All I am saying is that it’s a war not all Unionists believe is as important to participate in as you seem to think it is.

  • Gopher

    @Nevin

    Right so the UK is going to put civil service jobs in Northern Ireland when the minister is campaigning to leave the UK. I cant really see that being the cheap option for HMG. You either want civil service jobs or you don’t.

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    ” cultural war is well under way ”

    What aspect of Unionist culture is being attacked by Nationalists?

    BTW
    Nationalists were always prepared to keep flying the “British” flag over Belfast city hall.

  • Neil

    ” cultural war is well under way ”

    It’s been over for centuries. Nationalism lost. What you’re seeing now is very slight redress.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    What aspect of Unionist culture is being attacked by Nationalists?

    In my opinion, there is no such thing as “Unionist culture”, or “British” or “Irish” culture for that matter.

    A culture war can be fought on many different levels which need not (women’s reproductive rights in the US for example) involve national or political identity

    In Northern Ireland the elements which would bother or impact on me personally would be the war over the interpretation of The Troubles; the employment of the concept of collective “communal” responsibility to condemn everyone who may hold a particular political belief and the various wars on the sporting front (eg the GAA, the IFA etc).

  • FDM

    @oneill

    In Northern Ireland the elements which would bother or impact on me personally would be the war over the interpretation of The Troubles

    collective “communal” responsibility
    ———————————-

    We all understand that the PUL community don’t want the past picked at just as we all know the reason why.

    What percentage of the PUL community, if you could poll for such a thing, do you think would have voted for the Saville Inquiry taking place? I would say single figures tops. But the collective knowledge before a single statement was taken for Saville was that everybody knew, Catholic and Protestant what had actually transpired that day. It cost 200million so that the PUL community and the British government couldn’t deny or rationalise away the relevance, significance, or importance of the evidence of the slaughter in Derry.

    Amnesiac, self-deceptive and denial practises are rife in the PUL community as a necessary defence mechanism so that they can disassociate themselves from their role in the troubles. These are coupled with transference and projection of all the ills of the troubles onto the other community.

    May Blood made a statement on video that the identity of the Shankill Butchers was widely known on the Shankill Road at the time of the butchery. “I would imagine 30 or 40% (of those living in the Shankill) knew who the butchers were,” she said.

    So there is a collective culpability whether you like to admit to it or not as the example I have given demonstates.

    The below would be a pick and mix of the PUL psyche of slugger posters.

    “They started it, they were worse, they killed more, we were reacting [counter-terrorists], we only used all necessary force, our response was proportionate, the ends justified the means, all measures are justifiable in such circumstances, they had it coming, big boys rules etc…”

    I think the PUL community would be quite happy if Northern Irelands past was locked in a trunk and dropped into the deepest part of the Atlantic.

    However I think we would all be better if we had a good honest look at our collective history, so that we may learn from it and build something of a future.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    I put “communal” in incerted commas because just as I don’t believe there is a Unionist culture, I also don’t believe there is a Unionist community. I am responsible solely for my own actions and beliefs.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “However I think we would all be better if we had a good honest look at our collective history, so that we may learn from it and build something of a future.”

    I look at it from time to time, FDM, but it can be depressing stuff. On the other hand, doing positive stuff can be liberating as we discovered up in the Coleraine and Ballycastle districts from the early 70s onwards; it’s a matter of working the common ground and setting the differences to one side. The differences don’t go away but they do acquire perspective.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Gopher, I contacted my source. It’s claimed that there is an average salary differential of about £5,000 which grossed up with pension contributions comes out to a £8,000 difference. If anywhere near true, our Stormont ministers have a mountain to climb to retain jobs; getting a transfer to here sounds like mission impossible.

  • Barnshee

    “We all understand that the PUL community don’t want the past picked at just as we all know the reason why.”

    This is hilarious
    the PUL community don’t want the past picked SELECTIVLY

    PS I was there on Bloody Sunday –I definitely know what happened.

  • FDM

    @Barnshee
    the PUL community don’t want the past picked SELECTIVLY
    —————————-

    The point is we had the state and all its agencies prosecuting their war in a military and judicial [their selective version] way against the CNR community throughout the entire troubles. Leading to the deaths and injury of 1000s and the prosecution and jailing of 1000s of republicans, usually for life sentences.

    At the same time you had the same state and its agencies covering up all the nefarious activities it didn’t want us to know about.

    Whilst there are obviously dark areas of Republican activities that we don’t know about its the thin end of the wedge now because it was investigated AT THE TIME by the state.

    The thick end of the wedge that we don’t know anything about is the full scale and details of the government and its agencies in the troubles because they were VERY successful in hiding them at the time.

    This is why the inquiries are lop-sided.

    Had the state and its agencies acted with propriety during the conflict, the inquiries, trials and prosecutions would have taken place at the time.

    They didn’t.

    That is why the state and its apologists in the PUL community who it partisanly served are running scared from these truth finding exercises.

    But hey you know EXACTLY what I am talking about and you know that I am 100% on the money. Or do we need a 200million pound inquiry in your head to stop you from denying, transferring or projecting the blame to the CNR community whom it serves your psyche to focus all the ills upon?

  • carl marks

    oneill

    Again show me not only on Slugger the unionists who give the victims of McGurks the same concern they have shown for the two murdered UDR men this week. Show me the unionist politicians or otherwise who have come out and with a no ifs or buts condemnation of the fleg protests and the associated violence,
    They may well be unionists who do this sort of thing but i tell you what you do it very quietly.

    “if you move beyond Slugger and read some other material online you will see quite clearly that they don’t. But you don’t seem to have the inclination to want to do that.”
    If i have to search for unionists who oppose unionist violence then it sort of proves my point!
    I mean if there were a lot of them instead of those few exceptions who prove the rule then i wouldnt have to hunt for them..
    Your post on the McGurks thread and all those times you have stood up and condemned unionist violence have been noted ( actually couldn’t find any)
    This from you was interesting,

    The Unionist Forum: What is it?
    on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm
    Maybe they’ll start murdering taigs…
    There isn’t the stomach in mainstream Union to tolerate *our* La Mon, Enniskillen, Frizzels, Kingsmills, Teebane Darkley, Birmingham, Guidford, Warrington etc, etc, etc… ad infinitum.
    Strange that you didn’t mention any loyalist atrocities that unionism seems to be able to stomach!
    and strange no Condemnation of the loyalist rioters!

  • babyface finlayson

    Nevin
    “babyface, I’ve already said I steer clear of specifics but can use this website to do a director search.”
    Thanks for the link. I know you don’t want to name names, understandably, I was just hoping for a clue to which of the 6000+ charities we might look at.

  • Alan N/Ards

    FDM
    Is it not a well known fact that republican gangs were responsible for more catholic deaths than the military? Were they waging war against your community as well? You also seem to be in denial of the thousands of loyalists who were deservedly imprisoned during the troubles. Many of them received life sentences.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    Carl marks

    ?em:“If i have to search for unionists who oppose unionist violence then it sort of proves my point!”

    Read my comment on collective communal responsibility again- I have never carried out violence, I have never voted for any politician who (in the past or in the present) has supported the use of violence.
    According to your logic, that still makes me personally responsible for all “Unionist” violence? And if I am not personally responsible, why exactly do i have to apologise for such attrocities?

    Let me try to explain it another way… how do you personally sleep at night with the blood of the innocent victims of La Mon on your own conscience?
    I am assuming that you support Sinn Fein, apologies if I am wrong.
    But you get now my point about the problem with collective communal responsibility?

    This from you was interesting,
    The Unionist Forum: What is it?
    on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm
    Maybe they’ll start murdering taigs…
    There isn’t the stomach in mainstream Union to tolerate *our* La Mon, Enniskillen, Frizzels, Kingsmills, Teebane Darkley, Birmingham, Guidford, Warrington etc, etc, etc… ad infinitum.

    First of all, I have never, ever used a sectarian epithet on this or any other forum, so please tell me where you pulled the one you mentioned from?

    And I stand by what I said, there is absolutely no chance of a 30 year old terror campaign being waged on “behalf of Unionism” even in the event of a United Ireland because the necessary widespread *community* support would not be there to allow it to happen.

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    “the various wars on the sporting front (eg the GAA”

    What are you on about?

  • carl marks

    oneill
    “And I stand by what I said, there is absolutely no chance of a 30 year old terror campaign being waged on “behalf of Unionism”

    So how do you manage to explain the UVF, UDA, etc? or was that not a terror campaign fought on the behalf of unionism?

    “First of all, I have never, ever used a sectarian epithet on this or any other forum, so please tell me where you pulled the one you mentioned from?”

    Why your profile sir you posted it on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm and managed to ignore all that loyalist violence thus proving my point about unionists pretending that their violence never happened, thus ignoring the actions of loyalist terror groups, at a time when loyalists where rampaging on the streets you chose to focus on republican violence.

  • carl marks

    oneill
    I am assuming that you support Sinn Fein, apologies if I am wrong.

    Apology accepted your very very wrong.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    “Why your profile sir you posted it on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm”

    No, I didn’t.
    Now, prove it, or apologise.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    I have never, ever used the insult “taig” on here.

    It might suit your own sectarian and bigotted agenda to suggest that I did but again.. prove it.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    McSlaggart,

    For example;
    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sunday-life/sunday-life-reveals-sports-bodys-controverisal-memorials-to-dead-ira-members-in-ulster-28527638.html

    Now, the clubs in question may be merely celebrating sporting prowess….

    But, a war is not carried out only by one side, which was the reason why my previous point to you was as objective as I could make it.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “a clue to which of the 6000+ charities we might look at”

    babyface, you could search the list of directors for quite well known community representatives/activists.

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    If republicans/nationalists name their clubs after people like Martin Mc Guinness its because they see them as hero’s.

    If you see this as an aspect of “war” you would have to rename everything in Northern Ireland that had the suffix royal!

  • Reader

    carl marks: Why your profile sir you posted it on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm
    Looks like he was quoting, and responding to, galloglaigh 18 December 2012 at 8:10 pm
    Now, off you go and challenge galloglaigh’s offensive language. You can just hassle oneill about sloppy formatting. And yourself over sloppy research.

  • babyface finlayson

    Nevin
    “you could search the list of directors for quite well known community representatives/activists.”
    Sigh! I suppose I could. God I’m so lazy.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    McSlaggart,

    If republicans/nationalists name their clubs after people like Martin Mc Guinness its because they see them as hero’s.

    I daresay.
    Curiously enough though, those republicans which bought/ have been bought into the post GFA N.Ireland tend not to be honoured in the same way those who have prematurely met their Maker in the process of trying to eliminate a Brit, be that Brit a soldier or merely a local protestant. But you are still not really disproving my point regarding the Culture War.

    You can just hassle oneill about sloppy formatting.

    You can indeed.

    Being accused of HTML illiteracy, I can tolerate.
    Call me touchy but when someone decides to throw in the “Huh, I smell a Unionist in the area and that obviously means sectarian bigot” non-sequiter then I do feel I deserve a somewhat higher level of proof than Carl M offered.

  • ForkHandles

    “Thats the thing. The Culture Wars in the USA have been won by the Civil Rights movement and lost by the right wing racists. Likewise…as last years Olympics showed British multiculturalism has won out over the British racism.

    Now….they haven’t gone away ya know. There will always be Racism. There will always be Sectarianism. But ..? The lesson is that the Ku Klux Klan …for example… have been exiled to the margins off Civilisd Society. We should do the same with the Orange Order….then be nice to them.”

    The preamble and the last point ‘we should do the same with the Orange Oder’ is simply the out pouring of sectarian hatred from a tribal catholic against protestants in general. Standard stuff from slugger. Not a Christian Catholic because a Christian Catholic would not hate in such a way. But this is just typical of the sectarian nut jobs that make up the slugger regulars. There are millions of posts on this site that are just someone drawing in examples from around the world and trying to include them in a post to dress it up, but the post is just some pathetic attempt to attack and put down in some way the other tribe, as they see it. Its pretty boring and just makes those people look like sad dinosaurs.

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    ” disproving my point regarding the Culture War.”

    To have a war you must go out to have “conflict”. Your example of the GAA is one in which people decide to name their club or sporting event after someone they wish to honor. Now if most people at the club agree who are they at conflict with?

    As for Unionists/Orange men they are in Government with people whom carried out similar acts.

    It is understandable that you may not like what others see as heroes. At the same time them doing so cannot be seen as an act of aggression towards you!

  • Mick Fealty

    Holywood is now St Pauls but back in the day when nobody else in the town.understood why the ref kept letting us handball, the club was named after Thomas Russell (“The man from God knows where”).

    He was a 98 rebel, and an Anglican from Cork. He was executed in 1803 at the end of the last relatively popular cross community rising in Ireland.

    To that extent he was not a factional hero, which most of therecent paramilitary dead are. Now whether sport should follow politics so closely at all is another matter.

    But if some sort of cross community consensus is necessary to bring about a UI, heroising faction leaders is the wrong way to go about it.

  • Mc Slaggart

    Mick

    “if some sort of cross community consensus is necessary to bring about a UI”

    Sorry but if some people build a club its up to them what they call it. I may not agree but its not my club/hall/band. To build a UI one must not only say but show that all traditions will have freedom of expression.

    I am of the belief that a UI should be built on the basis of “to thine own self be true” not on your “To speak rubbish and lies may be ungood, but to speak rubbish and lies for the good of UI {“The Party”} may be good.

    BTW:
    “Holywood is now St Pauls but back in the day when nobody else in the town.understood why the ref kept letting us handball,”

    ??????

  • Reader

    Mc Slaggart: I may not agree but its not my club/hall/band.
    I’m reasonably content for equality rather than neutrality being the guide, though I don’t like either set of paramilitaries so there’s nothing in it for me. (I would prefer equality not to reside in the gutter, but we are where we are.)
    However, there’s still one further complication – public funding. There are insensitively named sporting clubs and bands receiving public funding. I hope people who are OK with the one are also OK with the other?

  • Mc Slaggart

    Reader

    “Public funding” hell I have drinking in public houses in England called after Oliver Cromwell.

    Northern Ireland is full of “insensitively named ” things one which is better address by acceptance of others rather than getting into the “Naming of Parts”(1).

    (1)
    Naming of Parts by Henry Reed

  • sonofstrongbow

    On another thread nationalists are saying that comparing the GAA with the OO or Loyalist band culture is wrong (some sort of “Protestant nationalist” [sic] conspiracy as I understand it).

    Seems that some of those Connolly House memos have got lost in the post.

  • Mc Slaggart

    sonofstrongbow

    It is interesting how very strong GAA towns such as Ballygawley are accepting of OO or Loyalist band culture to the point were the people parading think the locals do not object.

  • sonofstrongbow

    McS,

    That’s nice. Any more visits by the (silently) objecting to Dergina Orange Hall to show their “acceptance”?

  • Mc Slaggart

    sonofstrongbow

    “Any more visits by the (silently) objecting to Dergina Orange Hall to show their “acceptance”?”

    Dergina Orange Hall is in Aughnacloy ?

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    To have a war you must go out to have “conflict”. Your example of the GAA is one in which people decide to name their club or sporting event after someone they wish to honor. Now if most people at the club agree who are they at conflict with?

    McSlaggart,

    Conflict very often breaks out by accident, a careless or thoughtless provocation. It may not have been the motivation behind that original act.

    Most clubs have many, many sporting heroes to choose from- in the cases mentioned they instead opted for a person who many others in society (and not just Unionists) would find offensive. Do they name their clubs after such people to be deliberately offensive? That I don’t know but that is actually irrelevant if offense is caused.

    Do they have a right to choose whomever they want to name their club after? Legally yes (notwithstanding the fiunding question mentioned by Reader).

    But they (and you) should not then be surprised that others see it as a provocation and, not to overdramatise the point, a further shot in a culture war.

    Conflict caused by a careless or thoughtless provocation is still conflict.

    But I am not picking deliberately on the GAA because there are a whole host of other areas (or “hot-button” defining issues as JD Hunter, who actually wrote the book “Culture wars”,caled them) where a culture war is taking place.

    Many of those opposed to, for example, the GAA and Irish language merely because they are the GAA and the Irish language are very often guilty of those provocations as well.

    But a culture war is definitely taking place, you surely wouldn’t deny that?

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    “Conflict very often breaks out by accident”

    Do you have an example of this as I do not know of one?

    “would find offensive…….see it as a provocation ”

    I agree the world is full of examples of people who find others unacceptable due to who they are or their lifestyle choice or sexual orientation. Do you think this is a good thing???

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    1“Conflict very often breaks out by accident”
    Do you have an example of this as I do not know of one?
    Oh, come on!

    When Gavrilo Princip assasinated Franz Ferdinand was his purpose to instigate the biggest and bloodiest conflicts in human history?

    “I agree the world is full of examples of people who find others unacceptable due to who they are or their lifestyle choice or sexual orientation. Do you think this is a good thing???”

    What a strange question.

    You are also making a very big jump there equating, for example a homophobe’s prejudice against homosexuals and the family of a victim of republican terrorism having problems with their local sports club honouring the terrorist or group who murdered their love one.

  • Mc Slaggart

    oneill

    “When Gavrilo Princip assasinated Franz Ferdinand ” is not an example of “Conflict very often breaks out by accident”.

    His purpose by the way was unification of all Yugoslavs in an independent state.

    You may find it difficult to deal with Republicans who was active in the IRA but they are an important part of the society in which you live. For example Martin Mc Guinness got 52% of the vote in mid ulster constituency.

    I agree with you its particularly hard for those who had family/friends murdered or badly injured to see those and their group being venerated. It is however in the nature of the society in which we live.

  • carl marks

    oneill (profile)
    1 March 2013 at 6:43 pm

    “Why your profile sir you posted it on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm”

    No, I didn’t.
    Now, prove it, or apologise.
    Sorry about the delay in getting back to you took advantage of the good weather and got the tent out
    as for proof anybody can check your profile.
    But you wouldn’t be trying to distract attention from the fact that while loyalists were rioting on the streets you done the old unionist trick of ignoring it (and as your post shows ignoring decades of loyalist violence) and trying to pretend that all violence was nationalist?
    Even now your indignation is directed at the word taig and not the rest of your post from 18st December which you try to ignore.
    And for the record your sleight of hand implying that i am blaming you for loyalist violence is not going to work, what i am doing is stating that like other unionists you pretend it didn’t happen and try to claim a very false moral high ground,

  • carl marks

    Reader
    My use of o niells post was not to do with the word taig but to prove that all unionism ignores it own violence and instead concentrates on republican violence.
    His post of 18 dec would have been much more honest if it had read,

    There isn’t the stomach in mainstream Union to tolerate again, the shankill butchers, Grey steel, Miami Showband, Loughinisland, Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the Glenanne gang etc etc… ad infinitum.
    Instead of

    The Unionist Forum: What is it?
    on 18 December 2012 at 8:39 pm
    Maybe they’ll start murdering taigs…
    There isn’t the stomach in mainstream Union to tolerate *our* La Mon, Enniskillen, Frizzels, Kingsmills, Teebane Darkley, Birmingham, Guidford, Warrington etc, etc, etc… ad infinitum.

    Strange how he can get uptight about the word Taig but fail to even mention the slaughter of many many taigs, funny how when loyalists are gong ape on the streets unionists manage to get self righteous and brings up republican violence and pretend that the murder in the past goes only one way, which i believe was my original point and the one he disagreed with, so i just quoted him to show that he was wrong.

  • FDM

    @Alan N/Ards

    You also seem to be in denial of the thousands of loyalists who were deservedly imprisoned during the troubles. Many of them received life sentences.

    ————————————————

    Not as many as should have not, no not by a long chalk.

    Why would the state want to catch those that it employed to do its dirty work for it? 85% of the intelligence going into loyalism was from state sources. The MOD employed Brian Nelson directly and through him funded the purchase of the arms shipments from South Africa. The state did not collude with loyalist terrorists, they were agencies of the state.

    Additionally when loyalists were captured with weapons the old trick was a) not to shoot them and b) to charge them only with possession only.

    The other side were either a) executed on the spot [big boys rules or b) charged with possession with the intent to endanger life. The latter charge being where the big sentences came into play.

    If you want to see how balanced the the government were in their approach simply look at the internment stats.

    However I am explaining truths which EVERYONE knows to be true. In the situation AGAIN of having to outline the bleeding obvious to the masters of denial, transference and projection, the PUL community.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Do all Nationalists believe in “what’s bad for you is good for us…””

    It’s probably one of those shared beliefs, Mick, so I don’t think you should be singling out nationalists.

    Whatever happened to Peter’s ‘clever device’ or Martin’s ‘suspect device’? Fast forward on these unintelligent devices and we can see what has happened to Naomi Long and to people in the Brandywell. Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Good gracious! Were there no production managers working for the government during this onslaught on the defenceless croppie? Did the Public Accounts Committee not ask questions about value for money?

    I mean 40,000 armed soldiers and police on the streets plus x+++ loyalists directly employed by the state and yet they were out-murdered by nationalist murder gangs? Good Lord the British Federated Death Machine (FDM) couldn’t even match the nationalist murder gangs in numbers of Catholics killed.

    What a bunch of slackers. During the same timeframe the UK, a world power, defeated insurrections in Africa, ejected the Argentinian Army from the Falklands and with allies subdued regimes in the Balkans and Iraq.

    They must have been sleeping on the job in NI. EVERYONE should be asking for their money back.

  • FDM

    sonofstrongbow (profile)

    4 March 2013 at 10:21 am

    Good gracious! Were there no production managers working for the government during this onslaught on the defenceless croppie? Did the Public Accounts Committee not ask questions about value for money?

    I mean 40,000 armed soldiers and police on the streets plus x+++ loyalists directly employed by the state and yet they were out-murdered by nationalist murder gangs? Good Lord the British Federated Death Machine (FDM) couldn’t even match the nationalist murder gangs in numbers of Catholics killed.

    What a bunch of slackers. During the same timeframe the UK, a world power, defeated insurrections in Africa, ejected the Argentinian Army from the Falklands and with allies subdued regimes in the Balkans and Iraq.

    They must have been sleeping on the job in NI. EVERYONE should be asking for their money back.

    ———————–

    They did try SoS they just didn’t succeed. Rather than my words lets refer to the British Armys own assessment.

    In the 100 page British Army document reviewing the entirety of Operation Banner Gen. Mike Jackson and colleagues concluded that “the Army had failed to defeat the IRA”.

    In their own words. They plied every trick in the tried and tested British Army colonial warfare book and they still didn’t win. Every military and judicial sinew of the state working in concert to achieve a single outcome and it still didn’t do the trick.

    The same British Army document goes on to describe loyalist paramilitaries as “little more than a collection of gangsters”. How true.

    I think all requests for refunds shoud be directed to the following address.

    Minstry of Defence
    Whitehall
    London
    SW1A 2HB

  • sonofstrongbow

    My, my an employer referring to staff members as a “bunch of gangsters”. As you seem to be in the know about the employee/employer relationship between the state and loyalist terrorists I hope loyalists can give you a call as a witness to come along to the employment tribunal should they decide to take an action for bullying by the boss.

    It might be that other nationalists will not be too enamoured by you lumping them into the one pot with the IRA.

    Then again the more I read your contributions to this site the more I think you are a sock puppet. Are you UPC’s ( presently) free lieutenant ?

  • FDM

    @sonofstrongbow

    Then again the more I read your contributions to this site the more I think you are a sock puppet. Are you UPC’s ( presently) free lieutenant ?

    ——————————————-

    If I couldn’t win the day with my arguments I suppose I could scrape the barrel and stoop to petty personal insults. :)

  • sonofstrongbow

    Calm down dear and get over yourself. Your “arguments” [sic] can be distilled to ‘it’s the Brits fault’.

    You even have the (Lough) gall to mope about terrorists bombing and shooting to have fire returned to them. Then you over egg the pud by maintaining that loyalist terrorists got a metaphorical wave through.

    They were “agencies” of the state; although arrested in large numbers and referred to as “gangsters” by the Head of the Army (by the way Operation Banner was the name given to the army’s deployment in NI it did not encompass the entire political and law and order response to terrorist criminality).

    Take off those green tinted specs and look around. Oh and if you’re sensitivities are too delicate for this site there’s a simple solution just lift up your skirts and walk away.

  • http://www.openunionism.com oneill

    as for proof anybody can check your profile

    Carl Marks,

    Even better for those so inclined, they check this actual
    link:

    http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/12/18/the-unionist-forum-what-is-it/comment-page-1/#comment-1318163

  • FDM

    @sonofstrongbow

    “You even have the (Lough) gall ”

    Yip, thats about SoS level.

    “They were “agencies” of the state; although arrested in large numbers and referred to as “gangsters” by the Head of the Army (by the way Operation Banner was the name given to the army’s deployment in NI it did not encompass the entire political and law and order response to terrorist criminality).”

    No absolutely balanced they were. For instance Operation Demetrius where 342 people were interned by the state, through army/police arrests. In tabular form the arrests were as follows

    Republicans -v- Loyalists
    342 -v- 0

    A very balanced response at that time. The loyalists who were eventually interned are now currently taking civil action against the MOD because they were interned on the sole premise of the government being ‘seen’ to do something about loyalist paramilitaries.

    “simple solution just lift up your skirts and walk away.”

    Apologies if my presence here is so inconvenient to you that feel the need to encourage me to leave. I hope to continue to provide arguments and comment that you feel so bereft of an answer to that you have to default to insults.

  • sonofstrongbow

    Ah diddums. There there.

    Your presence here is by no means “inconvenient” to me, indeed your posts are a constant pleasure.

    Please let’s have more of your ‘arguments’. I for one enjoy them enormously, if only as they serve to illustrate to paucity of thinking that exists in certain quarters within nationalism.

    As to insults, well I bow to your expertise in that regard. Especially your penchant for insulting those suffering from medical issues. I see on another thread this morning you’ve already been spanked for that tendency; and was it not you who rushed to cheer on the SKtroll following his use of a nasty epithet attacking disabled people?

  • FDM

    @sonofstrongbow

    “As to insults, well I bow to your expertise in that regard. Especially your penchant for insulting those suffering from medical issues. I see on another thread this morning you’ve already been spanked for that tendency; and was it not you who rushed”

    ———————————

    If you or anyone or here could get me for “playing the man” then I can assure you, you would. You would cry to the moderators like a baby.

    Once confronted and having had their arguments completely undermined the defeated will try and secure any kind of keyboard warrior victory by other means. These would include a) tangency [lets have a different argument I can win], b) firing insults and c) beating a path to the moderators. Two of which we can at least see in the outworkings of slugger.

    Medicine? I am your medicine my friend. My medicine doesn’t taste nice, doesn’t look nice but believe me when I say that what I have to say is the only thing that is going to make you better. If you reject the medicine then only further pain can result. I am here to make you better, now open wide…

  • carl marks

    Yes I believe that is the quote i used, and i believe the condition suffered by very many unionists is called cogative dissidence (might have got the spelling wrong).
    But I am amused at both hi and readers attempts to divert from the actual point and focus (with outrage!)On the word taig, which is obvious to anyone reading the quote that it comes from another post. You would think a notorious pedant such as reader would have spotted it?

  • sonofstrongbow

    Thanks again FDM, you are indeed the gift that keeps on giving.

    I have yet to see you “undermine” or ‘defeat’ any interlocutor who challenged your ‘arguments'; or rather your sectarian polemics.

    You’ve been sat back on your arse in the Alliance Party thread. On the historical security situation you avoid FACTS (I know you like capitalisation) and go right back to your own single track furrow.

    On policing the “flag’ protests: well that was just sad. Your inability to grasp simple modern policing principles was astounding..

    However I’m not here to prick your delusional bubble (much) so plough away.

    So just to show I’m with you lad I’ll, and in the spirit of friendship you understand, point out a little typo on one of your excursions on another thread. When referencing your international writing career you typed “peer” reviewed. Surely that should have read ‘beer’ reviewed?

  • FDM

    @sonofstrongbow

    “I have yet to see you “undermine” or ‘defeat’ any interlocutor who challenged your ‘arguments’”

    So your telling me you haven’t looked in a mirror recently. Not self-loathing I hope.

    “You’ve been sat back on your arse in the Alliance Party thread.”

    Must be why they have reverted to insults as well because when you are winning you obviously need to do that.

    “On the historical security situation you avoid FACTS (I know you like capitalisation) and go right back to your own single track furrow.”

    So the introduction of publically released statistics and direct quotations are obviously me side-stepping reality, well what passes for reality in your head.

    “typed “peer” reviewed. Surely that should have read ‘beer’ reviewed?”

    Well a ‘peer’ would in this context be someone on the same level who has the knowledge, ability and experience to review your research output in an objective manner.

    Beer is a beverage.

    Can I recommend a good dictionary at all, perhaps prefaced by a lie down in a darkened room?

  • FDM

    you’re. Before the pedants come out of the sun.

  • sonofstrongbow

    FDM,

    You didn’t follow through with your offer and actually recommend a good dictionary. You left me hanging man!

    However in the spirit of experimentation I went for the Oxford. I have to tell you that you need to fine tune your exercises. From an ergonomics perspective I found I could probably read ok lying down, but the darkened room meant I couldn’t make out the words.

    So a word to the wise FDM (now there’s a combination I didn’t ever expect to use in the same sentence) working as a life coach might not be your best career path.

  • FDM

    @sonofcider

    “From an ergonomics perspective I found I could probably read ok lying down,”

    —————————–

    Ergonomics relates to the man-machine interfaces.

    I have no idea what machine or equipment you were using in that bed in the dark, whilst trying to read the dictionary.

    However before you go any further go to the ‘ergonomics’ listing in said Oxford dictionary and learn a new word today on me. Put a line under it so you will know that you have read that one before.

    Merry Christmas.

  • sonofstrongbow

    FDM,

    You are beyond parody; but it was fun while it lasted.