Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

Do all Nationalists believe in “what’s bad for you is good for us…”

Wed 27 February 2013, 2:11pm

I’d be the first to point out that FitzJamesHorse is blogger, and therefore on some level not real. He’s a nice to meet, if a little prickly in his online persona. But I was struck by this post from a few days ago by the bald statement it contains

Thats the thing. The Culture Wars in the USA have been won by the Civil Rights movement and lost by the right wing racists. Likewise…as last years Olympics showed British multiculturalism has won out over the British racism.

Now….they haven’t gone away ya know. There will always be Racism. There will always be Sectarianism. But ..? The lesson is that the Ku Klux Klan …for example… have been exiled to the margins off Civilisd Society. We should do the same with the Orange Order….then be nice to them.

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Comments (160)

  1. Nevin (profile) says:

    Mick, it doesn’t differ that much in tone from John Hume’s anti-unionist rhetoric from years back. Unionists and nationalists are well matched when it comes to ‘intransigence and bigotry’.

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  2. BarneyT (profile) says:

    OK that’s going to put the cat amongst the pigeons ..drawing parallels with the KKK and the OO.

    I’ve posted before that those that have the most have more to lose if a balance is achieved or if rights and wealth\prospects are more evenly distributed.

    I think Nationalists firmly believe that anything that serves the unionist community will naturally detract from nationalists and history might inform that opinion.

    On the other hand, they might consider that gains for nationalism in the short term will impact unionists but longer term I believe nationalists see their vision as being of benefit to all. There may be some merit in this, but it is contingent upon a united Ireland starting with a fresh slate and not just absorption of the north into the existing system in the south.

    Unionism has largely looked after itself and its own interests and there remains a notion (not a comprehensive one) that NI was created and exists for unionists and anyone that has other aspirations has 26 counties down below to choose from.

    In direct response the post, I am inclined to think that “what is bad for you is good for us” holds true for nationalists.

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  3. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    I would ban the Orange Order tomorrow and make a criminal offence to be a member.

    The change to our society would be unbelievably positive.

    The are a racist, fascist, sectarian, extreme religious fundamentalist organisation crammed with fanatics.

    The sooner they are gone from our society the better.

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  4. BarneyT (profile) says:

    There can be no place for any organisation that excludes based on religion. There can be no place for an organisation that holds its members to account for attending the funeral of a catholic PSNI officer. If the OO was dismissed and outlawed on that basis alone (which is sufficient) then this loss (bad) would be a gain (good) for nationalists..and the island.

    However, I doubt that the OO represents all that want to preserve the union, so another case for their demise.

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  5. Otto (profile) says:

    This throws me a bit;

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmsatFCZ1TM

    He seems nice.

    Maybe one day we’ll get a Basil and John Liberal Orange Order.

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  6. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    BarneyT: There can be no place for any organisation that excludes based on religion.

    You want an end to all organised religions?

    Aim high a chara. Aim high…

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  7. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    FDM,

    On what grounds exactly?

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  8. JR (profile) says:

    I’v only ever known one orange man well, he is dead about 10 years now, he was a neighbour and a very good neighbour at that. Always ready to lend machinery if we needed it, always fixed boundary fences and was nice about it when our cattle broke into his spuds or corn.

    So long as the OO has no power here I have no problem with the organisation.

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  9. Obelisk (profile) says:

    UPC

    “BarneyT: There can be no place for any organisation that excludes based on religion.

    You want an end to all organised religions?

    Aim high a chara. Aim high…”

    I’ve never seen such a perfect example of a strawman argument.
    May I have your permission to use this as an example when I have to demonstrate what a strawman argument is to somebody?

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  10. If you start from the position that relationships between Nationalists and others is a zero sum game, then the corollary is true “What is good for us is bad for you”.
    That is a sad starting point, however, thinking that improvements in societal relationships cannot improve for everyone at the same time.

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  11. BarneyT (profile) says:

    UPC – I’m no fan of organised religions.

    Anyhow, whos going to open a book on the name of McCreas new party…and I know that is such a culchie thing to say…

    They want a name that appears to the cross community…pro-union but attracts catholics who want to remain in the UK.

    Any takers?

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  12. Nevin (profile) says:

    “The sooner they are gone from our society the better.”

    Are you not losing the run of yourself, FDM? Your reaction reminds me of Cara McShane, SF councillor in Moyle, who got way over-excited when some local band members received an invitation from the local community association to lead a fancy dress parade down the village street. I can find no reference to this parade on the PC website. Do you recommend that the cross-community committee be thrown into clink – or that the councillor should have shown more wit?

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  13. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    BarneyT: UPC – I’m no fan of organised religions.

    You can’t ban the OO based on religious exclusivity grounds and leave the catholic church untouched.

    When does your campaign to ban the CC start??

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  14. tacapall (profile) says:

    Parading will go the way of the Dodo not because of any misconceptions over the moral values of paraders or their religious views but simply because of financial constraints. This is 2013, we all pay taxes and we all have a say in where those taxes are spent and policing 3500 or more Orange Order parades is not value for money in anyone’s eyes. In the near future bonfires will also be banned for the same reasons, the days of enjoying burning other peoples money are over. The problem is we have neanderthals in government who defend the right of the few to annually burden us all with unnecessary debt, money that could be used in the interests of everyone rather than the few.

    Its all rather confusing what the marching season is about, in 1690 the British King, James and supported by Catholics fought a Dutch King, William, supported by protestants but also supported by the Pope. Catholics fought under a union jack while protestants fought under some orange flag, just why do the OO carry union flags on 12th july and why all the animosity to the catholic church when the person they swear loyalty to – The Queen of England is head of a church that can be called both Catholic and Protestant.

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  15. Obelisk (profile) says:

    “They want a name that appears to the cross community…pro-union but attracts catholics who want to remain in the UK.

    Any takers?”

    I ran my suggestion through google translate.

    Aonbheannaigh Aontaithe Tuaisceart Éireann

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  16. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    The problem with the Orange Order, it seems to me, is not the worship (religion), it is an oath to suppress Catholics (politics).

    They are free to think, feel and preach whatever they like in regards to faith as far as I’m concerned. Their own salvation needn’t involve their Catholic neighbors politics. Where the problem has always been is the stated aim at keeping the Catholics down in a political sense.

    Is it any more complicated than that?

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  17. BarneyT (profile) says:

    I was sure there were other organised religions other than the CC.

    Your arguments are at least tenous. I would single out the OO as being intrinsically sectarian as for me they are in the hate game. Based on what I have seen, the Hibernian Order might fall into a similar sectarian bracket (not at all to be confused with the Forresters. I dont see that they have a place in society, irrespective of any social or comnuity related “good” they claim to achieve.

    I do not equate the OO with any of the main churches here or anywhere else for that matter.

    You do have an particular way of looking at things UPC.

    “I dont like cats” …ah ha…so you want to outlaw elephants with tusks!!

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  18. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Which oath is that Kev?

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  19. BarneyT (profile) says:

    Obelisk – that made me smile :-)

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  20. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Mick Fealty

    “On what grounds exactly?”

    ————————————————

    I recall reading somewhere that they were banned before for being a seditious organisation going back to one of the Kings? Open to correction.

    Marijuana is banned, though it is known to have medicinal powers for SOME of society.

    However it is seen to be GENERALLY detrimental to society as a whole, therefore banned.

    If you looking for some legal pretext that currently exists I don’t have one for you, I am not a lawyer. I could offer this…

    “the unlawful glorification of terrorism” is one of the terms of the Terrorism Act 2000. Surely that would do? How many banners to loyalist terroris groups? Bingo, you’re outta here.

    However if society wants something don’t we make the laws?

    I think the Order Order on the grounds of being “racist, fascist, sectarian, extreme religious fundamentalist organisation crammed with fanatics” should be made a proscribed organisation for the general betterment of our society as a whole.

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  21. There are a lot of misconceptions on Slugger at least as to what the OO is all about -”they are in the hate game”, for example. When I lived over there, I had come from a Nationalist background but the groups I was employed in were dominated by unionists. As well as being colleagues, many became friends and I was entertained in their homes and they in mine. Some were members of the OO. All were decent people that I was proud to say were my friends.

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  22. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    FDM,

    You’re talking in terms that could see a very chunk of NI Politicians chopped in one fell swoop… The marijuana example is a good one in one way (and utterly crass in another).

    There’s absolutely no scientific reason why we should ban marijuana and licence alcohol. The last government sacked a senior scientist from his advisory post for saying as much.

    It’s a societal bias for the old drug and against the new.

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  23. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Mister Joe

    “All were decent people that I was proud to say were my friends.”

    ————————

    See there is a rub there. My best man and best friend is an EnglishMAN. I like an individual EnglishMAN just fine.

    Its when EnglishMEN get together we are in trouble. Then they lose all reason and go and do silly things like invade Iraq, Afghanistan and act with complete barbarity in Ireland Many Englishmen have commented on the latter, Noel Coward to name one.

    Any given individual OrangeMAN might indeed be fine. However the collective is a seething bag of malevolence best consigned to history for all our sakes.

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  24. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Anyone care to answer the question in the title?

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  25. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    BarneyT: I do not equate the OO with any of the main churches here or anywhere else for that matter.

    You called for an end to any organisations which ‘exclude based on religion.’

    Do you even understand what you type? All churches will have to go too in your OO-free utopia.

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  26. Antain Mac Lochlainn (profile) says:

    I detest the Orange Order. They’ve been on the wrong side of every cultural, political and societal debate from Catholic Emancipation to Gay Marriage. But I remember that forlorn fly on the wall documentary the BBC did in Ballysally in Coleraine last year, and how a newly formed flute band gave young unemployed men something to get out of bed for. It’s a pity that there isn’t a nonsectarian equivalent but let’s face it, there isn’t.

    Re. a name for Basil’s party, I suggest ‘Unity’ – that way even SF supporters could vote for it.

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  27. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Mick Fealty

    I agree with the alcohol/marijuana example. I do not see why one is a banned substance, whilst the former is evidently generally more detrimental to society.

    I just don’t see any benefits at all from Orange Order activity.

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  28. David Crookes (profile) says:

    “Anyone care to answer the question in the title?”

    OK.

    No.

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  29. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    @Mick, this is old, I admit, and the oath could have changed in the meantime, but this is from Rules for Society, 1834, the Declaration of an Orangeman: “‘I do declare that I am not, nor ever was, a Roman-Catholic or Papist; that I was not, am not, or ever will be, a member of the society called “United Irishmen” , nor any other society or body of men, who are enemies to his Majesty, or the glorious constitution of these realms; and that I never took the oath to that or any other treasonable society.”

    Identifying the Roman Catholic Church as a treasonable society, use of the ‘P’ word etc. Earlier in the declaration it is stipulated the loyalty to the Crown is contingent upon the bearer being Protestant.

    These are political doctrines, not religious. I would be the last to say the Catholic Church can be counted on to abstain from political discourse, but I find it more helpful to discuss things as they are, and not how we’d like them to be.

    The Orange Order has a nice record for charitable activity, in most settings, particularly rural, it amounts to a auxiliary church society providing a hall a community might not have were it not for the Orange. All great stuff. But at it’s heart, is a call to suppress the political power of Catholics. That is an anachronism in a society dedicated to eliminating sectarianism and making peace with itself.

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  30. BarneyT (profile) says:

    ” ban marijuana and licence alcohol” – glad you brought us back to the “what’s bad for you is good for us…” argument.

    Its true. I could be wrong but I am sure there are not too many documented cases of domestic abuse following a few tugs of the oul weed or resin. Synically I would suggest that many drugs would be legalised of the government could monetise it. Producing high quality drugs illegally is much easier than producing a decent homebrew……I would guess.

    With regard to the OO, if you take their reaction to Mr Kennedy and others for their part in the PSNI officers funeral, questions have to be asked to their relevance and contribution. That for me was sectarianism of the highest order.

    som what about the poll?

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  31. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Do all Nationalists believe in “what’s bad for you is good for us…”

    ————————————

    No.

    It doesn’t work because of the symbiosis between the two cultures.

    Next.

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  32. tacapall (profile) says:

    FDM im a republican and I have friends or know people who are in the OO and some who would be in bands that you would class as blood and thunder. Far from being sectarian they are in fact christians and share the same values towards right and wrong that you and I share. Whatever you believe or think about bands that are associated with protestant culture they are not all sectarian either, some bands display skills that are really world class and the majority of music, apart from some wkrs playing sectarian songs, is quite enjoyable to listen to but at the same time I dont think society could afford in the long term to allow so many parades annually over such a short period of time during the year,. Its financially unsustainable and its a burden on the majority who also have rights. Why dont they just have one big parade per year and be done with it.

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  33. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    Mister_Joe

    “Some were members of the OO. All were decent people that I was proud to say were my friends.” …

    I think you are confusing the people in an organisation and the organisation itself [1}. The “decent” OO people I know in Tyrone blame the Belfast ones.

    {1}As one Candian orange man I knew/met once said the OO in Canada is pro Protestant but the OO here was anti catholic.

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  34. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Regarding marijuana and the upcoming papal election. Elect me Pope and I’ll make marijuana a sacrament. It would solve much.

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  35. tmitch57 (profile) says:

    The KKK was a terrorist organization created in the late 1860s in order to suppress black attempts at equality in the South during Reconstruction. It was then twice revived, in the 1920s and again in the 1950s, the last time to resist integration. The NI equivalent would be the OO’s terrorist off-shoots, the UDA and the UVF.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with any of the loyal institutions per se (OO, Apprentice Boys, Royal Black Perceptory). It is their perception among some sectors of the nationalist population that is the problem. But as long as certain Republican politicians complain about certain other terrorist organizations not having gone away, there is little room for complaint. The problem is that both sides have organizations that have members who have certain ideological orientations. The various anti-parades organizations were as likely to contain former terrorists as are the loyal institutions.

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  36. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    Mick Fealty (profile) 27 February 2013 at 3:43 pm

    “Anyone care to answer the question in the title?”

    I resent doing so as its so stupid = “what’s bad for you is good for us…”

    NO! Now that I have answered it can you give an example of nationalists thinking in that manner?

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  37. BarneyT (profile) says:

    I suppose my point would be, if you had to draw up a template for a new NI future, would the OO be pencilled in?

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  38. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    tmitch57

    “The problem is that both sides have organizations that have members who have certain ideological orientations. The various anti-parades organizations were as likely to contain former terrorists as are the loyal institutions.”

    If nationalists wanted to stop loyal institutions marching why would they not do it in areas that they are strong?

    It is noticeable that the places the OO has difficulties is were they consider themselves powerful!

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  39. Reader (profile) says:

    FDM: I recall reading somewhere that they were banned before for being a seditious organisation going back to one of the Kings? Open to correction.
    Though they are definitely less seditious than SF, these days.
    UPC : When does your campaign to ban the CC start??
    That’s a mischievous interpretation. He obviously meant the Ancient order of Hibernians, Opus Dei and the Legion of Mary; not actual religious denominations.

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  40. Alan N/Ards (profile) says:

    FDM

    I’m not a fan of the OO. I’ve said it before and I’m saying it again? Many of its members have brought shame on the reformed churches in NI. I personally believe that it needs to be reformed and become a Christian organisation that adheres to the teachings of Christ.

    How many orange members to you personally know? The vast majority have no interest in annoying anybody but are being tarred by the morons who should not have been allowed anywhere near a collarette. The leadership of the order is on a power with the leadership of unionism. I personally believe that a Christian believer
    should not be a member of the order but every one has to make up their own mind about that. As a member of the Presbyterian Church I struggle with Mervyn Gibson being a spokes person for the order. His first loyalty (in my eyes) is to the teachings of Christ. As an ordained Presbyterian minister he needs to consider the damage that he could do to the Christian witness of our church.

    The membership of the order is at an all time low at present. Many of the decent members had enough and left but if a UI ever came about I would say that the order will become one of the biggest organisations on the island of Ireland and every 12th they will lead the masses out from behind the circled wagons for the 12th festivities.

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  41. Bangordub (profile) says:

    In fairness, I have met Mr Fitz and he is not at all prickly in person as Mick says above. However a selective quote from his blog framed in a different question is hardly fair to the point he was making. The question Mick is asking is really, “do Nationalists still believe in zero sum politics?” My answer would be no.It is unionist politicians who constantly revert to that agenda as evidenced by the mid ulster nonsense. At least nationalists have a choice. They can vote for one of two nationalist parties, alliance or Mr Lutton.

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  42. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    Reader: That’s a mischievous interpretation. He obviously meant the Ancient order of Hibernians, Opus Dei and the Legion of Mary; not actual religious denominations.

    Why? They exclude on religious grounds. You can’t ban the OO and leave the catholic church alone.

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  43. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    Ulster Press Centre

    “Hibernians, Opus Dei and the Legion of Mary”

    They are catholic organisations but the members are allowed to marry Protestants. When do you think the OO will allow its members to marry [Roman] Catholics?

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  44. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Whats that story about the troll who lived under a bridge?

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  45. David Crookes (profile) says:

    Thanks for your posting, Alan N/Ards. I can see two cases in which a Christian should defy the law. Not all that long ago, some lunatics in the Knesset wanted the possession of a New Testament to be made an arrestable offence. If the possession of a Bible is made an arrestable offence, any Christian who really is a Christian will break the law, get arrested, and go to prison. Same goes if church attendance is made an arrestable offence.

    But if the state makes it illegal either for a parade to march down a particular street, or for a protest to impede the free movement of persons and vehicles, a Christian is BOUND by the Bible on which his faith is based to obey the law. Look at I Peter 2. 13-14.

    “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake; whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors…..”

    OF COURSE “every ordinance of man” includes the parades commission. Whether individual Christians like the parades commission or not is worse than trivial. If they are true Christians, they will obey its ordinances. If they wilfully disobey its ordinances, they are not true Christians.

    There can no pick-and-mix about the Christian faith. If you choose to disobey the Biblical law relating to civic duty, how can you expect anyone to obey the Biblical law relating to sexual morality?

    If you say that in certain areas of life DO WHAT THOU WILT is the whole of the law, you are a syncretist. But there can be no fellowship between Christ and Crowley.

    Any professing Christian who thinks I’ve gone over the top should read in context I Samuel 15. 23: “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”.

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  46. Nevin (profile) says:

    tacapal, the OO was formed in north Armagh in 1795. Parading was a tradition of that era. The defeat of James may have been viewed back then as just as important, possibly more important than William’s victory.

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  47. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Sorry guys you lost me there when you started talking about religion.

    How does everything you say there affect the Jedi?

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  48. Canny See It Sur (profile) says:

    @UPC
    Why? They exclude on religious grounds. You can’t ban the OO and leave the catholic church alone.

    No they don’t exclude on religious grounds. Anyone of any religion is allowed to attend Mass and even receive communion or a blessing. If you’ve ever attended a Catholic Wedding or Funeral you’ll have witnessed the priest telling people of any denomination to approach the altar at communion for a blessing (in the Derry Diocese anyway).

    I don’t think they could be more welcoming in fact.

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  49. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    “How does everything you say there affect the Jedi?”

    The OO break the rule of the Jedi ie

    “Jedi respect all life, in any form.”

    It will be in the next movie were the jedi best knights are sent to destroy the OO……

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  50. Canny See It Sur (profile) says:

    FDM

    I would ban the Orange Order tomorrow and make a criminal offence to be a member.

    The change to our society would be unbelievably positive.

    The are a racist, fascist, sectarian, extreme religious fundamentalist organisation crammed with fanatics.

    The sooner they are gone from our society the better.

    Mick
    FDM,

    On what grounds exactly?

    I think what FDM is referring to is the ‘greater good’ that would be achieved by the removal of the Orange Order. I’m glad to say that any protestant friends of mine view the OO in the same light as I. They see it as a backward group of neanderthals who offer nothing for society.

    This isn’t a sectarian viewpoint either. Its not sectarian to despise a grouping who themselves are built on a foundation of sectarianism.

    This is where i think the comparison between the OO and KKK are perfect. It’d be like telling a black man that its racist for him to hate the KKK.

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  51. carl marks (profile) says:

    Here is a observation, on the anniversary of a atrocity committed by nationalist terrorists, slugger may well have a thread to discuss it.
    Nationalists will contribute to that discussion, none will condone it many may place it in its historical perspective but they will not pretend it didn’t happen,
    When it is a Nationalist atrocity many of our regular PUL posters will,
    A/ condemn it.
    B/ go all self righteous (you know the old what do you expect from those republicans thugs)
    C/ go all MOPE (why do they do this we are just law abiding citizens who done nothing to deserve this)
    But when it comes to a atrocity (or indeed any violence committed by unionists)
    The reactions from PUL posters differs it is,
    A/ Ignore it (see the recent thread on the McGurks bar massacre) not one PUL poster could bring themselves to condemn it.
    B/ try to blame it on Nationalists (again see the recent thread on the McGurks bar massacre only one PUL poster contributed he ignored the fact that the UVF planted the bomb and tried to blame the deaths on the IRA.
    This is a common factor running through unionism, all we have to do is look at how PUL posters have reacted to the recent street violence carried out by loyalists, they either ignore it or its the fault of the police/elected representatives anybody but the loyalists.
    Also anybody want to bet on how many outraged PUL posters we get condemning the recent loyalist attacks on houses in Antrim and north Belfast.

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  52. between the bridges (profile) says:

    For those wishing the demise of the OO, can i just say dream on…
    COUNTY Fermanagh Grand Orange Lodge is participating in a ground-breaking new project, supported by Fermanagh District Council.http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/news.aspx?id=99815#.US5Ij6JA2So

    http://www.u.tv/news/900k-for-Orange-Order-legacy-project/acfc912a-602b-4f9d-8c0c-f262fb100bef

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/orange-order-celebrates-4m-grant-for-two-new-museums-designed-to-tell-its-story-28880263.html

    http://www.northernireland.gov.uk/index/media-centre/news-departments/news-deti/news-deti-july-2012/news-deti-120712-tourism-ministers-meet.htm

    The future is bright…

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  53. babyface finlayson (profile) says:

    FDM
    “The are a racist, fascist, sectarian, extreme religious fundamentalist organisation crammed with fanatics.”
    Apart from that they are ok then?
    Seriously though I think rather than talking about bans the OO needs to be prevailed upon to put into practice its principles.
    If the brethren uniformly showed the christian charity they proclaim when joining there would be little problem.
    Yes they would still be against the teachings of the ‘church of Rome’, but if they make such objections peacefully I think we could live with it.
    Not sure how they are racist exactly?
    One other point.I don’t think the OO and the KKK should be corralled (sorry) together.
    One most obvious difference is we can see Orangemen marching in plain view,readily identifiable,every year.

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  54. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Considering OO membership is at an all time low, it seems fitting to put up a museum or two to tell its story. It is a shell of its former self in terms of membership, political power and social importance.

    Drumcree appears to be its Waterloo. It hasn’t been the same since.

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  55. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Yeah, museum curation is obviously your forte Kev… 1832… [cough] When did you stop collating contemporary evidence on the Orange? And why?

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  56. Zig70 (profile) says:

    Armchair Nats have enjoyed the flag protests with Unionist politicians tripping over the whole affair. It looked like the desperate actions of a drowning clan, doubt it is, but it showed how easy it is to trip unionism up. Certainly unionist weakness is a benefit to the Nationalist political class but little benefit to ordinary folk. Unless you hold the view that unionists are screwing this place up on purpose to make it impossible for the South to afford. Which seems to be the main tenant of their argument recently.

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  57. anne warren (profile) says:

    In reply to the poster who asked about when the Orange Order, a key element in the culture of Protestant Ulster was banned.
    On 19 July 1823 the Unlawful Oaths Bill banned all oath-bound societies in Ireland. This included the Orange Order, which had to be dissolved and reconstituted.
    In 1825 a bill banning unlawful associations compelled the Orangemen once more to dissolve their association.
    In 1845 the ban was lifted, but the notorious Battle of Dolly’s Brae between Orangemen and Ribbonmen in 1849 led to a ban on Orange marches which remained in place for several decades

    So the anwer is most of the 19th Century.

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  58. Mister Joe[3.12] The were two unionists on the radio today who clearly thought things should go back to the good old days regarding how the police ought to treat unionist/loyalist lawbreakers compared to nationalists in the same boat. The father of a youth who was jailed for 3 months for his part in riot [David Crooks snr], was on whingeing that his ‘butter wouldn’t melt’ son shouldn’t have been there at all. Jim Wilson was on Nolan show to plead with ‘his community who were in the flag riots, to desist and avoid getting locked up and ruining their future. Nolan asked the pertinent question why Wilson took until now to make this plea. I can answer that one. Wilson back in december clearly expected the police to play the game and be lenient with his side’s lawbreakers as the RUC used to. He’s squealing now after discovering this was not being done.Changed times from December.

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  59. claudius (profile) says:

    I’ll answer the question. Can we have more jobs please?

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  60. Greenflag (profile) says:

    Irish nationalists much less Irish or other Republicans should have no problem with the OO’s protests /marching against the teachings /institutions /secrecy /lack of transparency/non democratic ethos of the RC Church . It’s when some of the more inebriated and less educated Orange yobs morph into flag burning /anti Irish /anti Fenian /anti Catholic /anti democratic thugs – thats when they incur the opprobium of civilised society in these islands .

    They need to focus on practising ‘real ‘Christianity as does the Vatican and if they can keep the youngsters occupied in the winter months with band practice -thats probably all to the good .They should strive to attain a situation whereby they might even be invited to perform their music outside the narrow confines of NI.
    As for Nationalists believing whats bad for the OO or Unionism is good for us ‘nationalists’ I’d simply reply that whats bad is bad for everybody .In the no win no lose zero sum game that is and always will be Northern Ireland politics -barring a major black swan intervention – there are only losers . The fact that the OO may be losing by more than nationalism is about as relevant as Hartlepool United being defeated by Man Utd by 7-0 whereas Wigan are defeated by 6-0 .

    The OO are an anachronism in modern society and although it might be stretching it to suggest that the RC Church is heading the same way in Ireland as the OO the fact that both institutions are finding it increasingly difficult to come to terms with modern life and values and norms is a strong indicator that both will play a lesser role in Ireland’s future .Speed the day .

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  61. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Mick, “When did you stop collating contemporary evidence on the Orange? And why?”

    How relevant is contemporary evidence when discussing an organization formed in the 19th century with a worldview stuck in the 17th century?

    I can talk about what has changed in the meantime, but how relevant is that to the Orange Order?

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  62. Jack2 (profile) says:

    How far forward would we be in the “normalization” of NI if the OO didn’t exist?
    Imagine no 12th July celebrations. No urinating on churches. No famine song. No parading in areas where they may not be wanted.

    It seems that every year we take three steps forward then on the 12th July its two steps back again.

    OO’s very raison d’etre is anti Catholic, its time has past.
    The comparison with the KKK is apt.

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  63. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Kev,

    You’re slick, I’ll give you that…But you’re still not answering what is a fairly simple question…

    Why go back to a point in time when sheep stealers were hung or deported to give a flavour of what the Orange is now?

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  64. Just a few words if I may.
    Thanks to Mick for the plug for my blog.
    I think he highlights just one point I was making.And in fairness to him, I think this thread has gone off on a tangent.
    I should maybe point out that my net blog will….eventually….be on St Patricks Day. I have been working on it for days.
    The context is important.
    The post is called….A Bad Marching Season Is A Good One…..and obviously references the speculation that the summer will be a bad one. The last sustained bad marching season was Drumcree.
    People died at that time. THey should be acknowledged but on the specifics of marching itself….who exactly won that battle.
    Well no Orange Order march will ever get down Garvaghy Road again.
    In crude zero sum politics that was a defeat for unionism…a victory for nationalism.
    Likewise there were serious people who thought that there was something called Unionist Outreach….but surely that was fatally undermined by the Autumn riots and Flegs and now unionist “unity”.
    Again it’s zero sum.

    Of course we areNOT supposed to talk about zero sum politics. It is a thought which appals the Conflict Resolutionists with their mantra that we are all winners and all losers….all responsible and all victims.

    Th post ws about Conflict Resolution.
    And my long held belief that Conflicts are ended with Peace replacing War…..shamefully perhaps a suicide in a Brlin bunker, an atom bomb on a Japanese city or helicopters flying away from the USA embassy in Saigon.
    Victory. Defeat. Resolution
    Whether it is a Marshall Plan…de Nazification…re-education camps in a jungle.
    But our own squalid little conflict was ended or parked with …we are told…no winners or losers.
    But how exactly would the American Civil War have shaped up if there was a negotiated settlement in 1863.
    Or World War 2 in 1941.

    or the American Civil Rights issue …how would that have been if the KKK not been confronted and defeated and sent to the margins of respectable society.
    As a general rule, good decent liberAl people are anti KKK but in the context of Norn Iron are obliged to be nice to the Orange Order.
    Why???
    Thats not consistent.
    We have a choice.
    Just let things sit….we have a no-score draw.
    To coin a phrase lets not pretend the Future is brighter by accommodating the Orange Order.

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  65. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    To be candid, Mick, I’m not trying to be slick. Frankly, I would love to expound on the changing ethos of the Orange Order in the Twentieth Century. I’d happily write a veritable treatise on the subject. Perhaps you can assist me in my journey and point me to information regarding such changes.

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  66. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Thanks FJH…

    Try Google? Or why not ask an Orangeman to provide you with a conduct a guided tour of post Georgian Orangism?

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  67. Gopher (profile) says:

    I remember back in my youth laughing to myself at Ulster’s finest walking past the bands in an Orange parade. Now I would not dream even of smiling walking past a band, steroids, protein powder, recreational drugs, alcohol and tattoo’s and together in a pack. Cheers for that victory nationalism I really appreciate it.

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  68. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Just took a look at their website. No sign of an evolving Orange ethos there. Hmmm…

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  69. Nevin (profile) says:

    “Well no Orange Order march will ever get down Garvaghy Road again. In crude zero sum politics that was a defeat for unionism…a victory for nationalism.”

    fjh, on a wider focus, it was also a defeat for minorities of all hues and a victory for paramilitaries of all hues. It also flushed out something about the nature of inter-government relationships and how easily the BBC could be rolled over by government.

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  70. Alias (profile) says:

    “Well no Orange Order march will ever get down Garvaghy Road again.
    In crude zero sum politics that was a defeat for unionism…a victory for nationalism.”

    It wasn’t a defeat for unionism, and it had no relevance at all to nationalism. Nationalism isn’t defined by a bunch of sectarian Catholics trying to stop their fellow countrymen walking along a public road anymore than Unionism is defined by a bunch of sectarian Protestants. These tribes, and the antics some of their members engage in, are defined by other factors.

    Unionism is, of course, thriving in NI, with more than half of all NI’s Catholics supporting the union with Great Britain. Irish nationalism in NI was defeated to the extreme that nearly half of all of NI’s Catholics no longer even define themselves as being members of the Irish nation.

    What you have in some quarters with these local tribal disputes, essentially, is two tribes competing with each other for an imaginary advantage.

    No Irish nationalist would harbour such hatred of the Orange order as is expressed by some Catholics in NI. An Irish nationalist would look at his own flag and see the parity of esteem between the Orange and the Green.

    It is the lack of nationalism among them that has made it so easy for the British state to replace the old nationalist aspiration for parity of esteem between the Orange and the Green with the new aspiration for parity of esteem between the Irish state and British nationality, British nationalism, and the British state.

    They’re not remotely Irish nationalists – just sectarian dupes unwittingly doing the British state’s bidding to the direct detriment of Irish nationalism.

    And really, comparing the Orange Order to the KKK?? How will you ever respect the orange on the flag if you think that? Of course you can’t, and that is why you are being manipulated to undermine it.

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  71. Nevin, Mick….I don’t want to get sucked into a general discussion. Theres a difference between a Blog and a Discussion Board.
    I jut wanted to state that there was a wider context here.
    The deal we got….is flawed …maybe even fatally by a combination of Creative Ambiguity, St Andrews and the parking of too many issues from the GFA..perceived nationalist issues such as Irish language, perceived unionist issues such as victims.
    We either reject it…or accept its flaws ….I’m neutral on that.
    What I am not neutral as a washy washy liberal lefty….is tolerating organisations that I would march against in Atlanta, Georgia.
    Indeed I would not have to do that in 2013….s they are at the margins of society….embracing their confederate flag as “heritage not hate” lamenting that they no longer rule the roost and doing the whole angry white man thing.

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  72. Morpheus (profile) says:

    Alias, I could just as easily say to you that 52% of everyone in Northern Ireland – the majority – said that they weren’t British. What’s up with that?

    Or I could say that 41.1% of those who voted in the last Assembly election did so for pro-UI parties as opposed to the 45.7% from the DUP/UUP/TUV. A difference of just 4.6%.

    Then you could say that only 22.5% of the electorate voted for SF/SDLP then I’ll say that only 24.9% voted DUP/UUP/TUV. A difference of only 2.4%.

    Then you’ll quote the BBC poll from a few weeks ago then I’ll say that the only shock from that poll was that they found anyone who would agree to a UI tomorrow.

    Then the discussion would go on to unicorns…

    We could go on all night but the truth of the matter is that no one has the foggiest idea what all this crap actually means until the debates have been had, the electorate have made up their minds and a referendum on the specific issue is called and voted on.

    That’s why I stay away from sweeping statements like “Irish nationalism in NI was defeated to the extreme that nearly half of all of NI’s Catholics no longer even define themselves as being members of the Irish nation.”

    Is the Union safe – in my opinion yes it is for now. But for no loftier reason that the economy in NI is so screwed that no one else could afford us. We put £12.7m into the UK pot and take out £23.2 – go figure.

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  73. Morpheus (profile) says:

    Sorry, that should say “We put £12.7 BILLION into the UK pot and take out £23.2 BILLION – go figure.

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  74. Red Lion (profile) says:

    I have ranted for some time at how utterly devoid of direction and intellectual thought political unionism is. Its in plain sight.
    I thought in the past that Sinn Fein were master strategists, as odious as I considered them.
    I now see it clearer than ever, republicanism and nationalism are also impotent. The bankruptancy of thought within nationalism approaches that of political unionism. Both are useless and it is heartening to see the seeds of a new dynamic slowly but surely gaining traction.

    Change is on the way – the rise of the middle ground. Here, it won’t be about whose tribes is winning or losing, it will be about both polarised positions of SF and DUP in the useless carve up, basically getting stuffed.

    Whats bad for the carve up will be good for the emergence of a more normal politic in NI. With Basil and John ready to champion this dynamic, bring it on!

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  75. Professor Yattle (profile) says:

    The ‘insight’ that peace is easier after outright victory is so trite that I wonder why even Fitzjameshorse bothered to write it, let alone why Mick bothered to repost it.

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  76. Or why you bothered to read it?

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  77. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    FJH,

    “Theres a difference between a Blog and a Discussion Board.”

    (Another) saucer for Mr Horse… :-)

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  78. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    PY,

    I posted it because I wanted to test opinion on FJH’s view. Sadly very few have addressed the question as directly as he has. I don’t think there is any doubt when looking at the #Fleg crisis (‘there will have to be adjustments’ – Danny Morrison) that zero sum has become the dominant view within Nationalism.

    I just wanted to see if there were many exceptions/outliers. That may be one reason why Micheal Martin’s latest intervention has gone down like the proverbial ‘wind’ in the space suit…

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  79. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Kev,

    “Just took a look at their website.”

    Oooh, effort. Much?

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  80. oneill (profile) says:

    Carl Marks,

    But when it comes to a atrocity (or indeed any violence committed by unionists)

    The reactions from PUL posters differs it is,
    A/ Ignore it (see the recent thread on the McGurks bar massacre) not one PUL poster could bring themselves to condemn it.
    B/ try to blame it on Nationalists (again see the recent thread on the McGurks bar massacre only one PUL poster contributed he ignored the fact that the UVF planted the bomb and tried to blame the deaths on the IRA.

    This is a common factor running through unionism…

    Bit of a wide brush there, we (admitedly we’re all unionists not so many Ps or indeed Ls) asked Ciaran to contribute this following the publication of his book on the McGurk tragedy:

    http://www.openunionism.com/decoding-the-past-to-inform-the-present/

    We did it because we felt it was necessary to challenge the engrained “truths” of our “own side” and from the several emails we recived and comment on twitter it seems that we acheived that.

    Also, to give but one counter-example, a constant revisionist battle has been waged on Wikipedia by republicans on such pages as those concerning the Kingsmill & Birmingham Massacres- they haven’t shown a great deal of respect there for the familes of the victims nor indeed the wider concept of neutral reporting and recording.

    So perhaps FJH is right. In certain areas of the cultural sphere (eg interpretation of the Troubles), the war remains alive and kicking and there can be only victory or defeat; an honourable stalemate is impossible.

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  81. Nevin (profile) says:

    “I don’t want to get sucked into a general discussion. There’s a difference between a Blog and a Discussion Board.”

    fjh, in this yarn, there are discussions on your solo blog and on this Slugger O’Toole one. The latter has a range of bloggers and therefore a greater range of opportunities for parading prejudices ;)

    “I just wanted to state that there was a wider context here.”

    You ignored the wider context here and ran to the USA for an irrelevant comparison; you’ve essentially endorsed the Athboy conspiracy and given a green light to loyalist and republican thuggery. These thugs don’t just control who passes through the neighbourhood; they also determine who lives there. Curiously enough, you’ve now found yourself sharing a platform with the London and Dublin political establishments.

    “The Good Friday Agreement ended the Conflict”

    It followed on from a dramatic reduction in violence, violence directed at either facilitating or frustrating constitutional change. The constitutional ‘deal’ ensured that the tug-of-war conflict would continue in the attrition mode; paramilitary shootings and beatings continue at a level that would be most unlikely to be tolerated in the rest of these islands.

    “Enter the Conflict Resolutionists”

    You portray them as liberals but if you lift the stone you will also find paramilitaries. Have you taken the trouble to examine the pedigree of the directors of ‘charities’ in this sphere who have acquired the status of limited liability(?) companies? It’s quite an eye opener. Some of these directors absent themselves from photo opportunities when projects receive their official blessing. To those who say produce the evidence, I say do the research; those with a titter of wit will appreciate the dangers of publishing the evidence.

    “the whole angry white man thing”

    On that score, I’ll give you 7 out of 10 for your passable imitation:)

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  82. Professor Yattle (profile) says:

    Yes, FJH, it was three minutes of my life I’ll never get back. I assumed Mick must have mined it for some nuggett of worthwhile comment but I suspect he was simply appalled by your “no peace without victory” absolutism. You’re no John Hume, that’s for damn sure.

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  83. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    The question needs to be tweaked with ‘northern’ inserted before “nationalists”. It seems that the majority of those in the Republic are as dismayed with their northern cousins as unionists are.

    The bulk of southerners don’t share the visceral hatred of their fellow Irish people as displayed by a large number of northern nationalists.

    I guess they look up occasionally to regard all the colours of their national flag. Northern nationalists seem to keep their gaze firmly in the gutter.

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  84. Morpheus (profile) says:

    Yeah, it’s all those pesky northern nationalist bogeymen. You keep telling yourself that sonofstrongbow

    *turns away and shakes his head in disbelief*

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  85. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    Instead of pointles posts take some time to listen to the Dail debates (especially when Dear Leader takes a bow), read some southern papers and listen to public commentary. You’ll get the idea (oh and goggle the Irish tricolour) ;)

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  86. Morpheus (profile) says:

    I lived south of the border for many happy years, I still work there so my friends and colleagues are from the south. My experience is that our brothers and sisters who reside south of the border do not look upon those north of the border with the levels of contempt that you imply.

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  87. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    More of the same glib self-satisfied unsubstantiated guff from the ciderman.

    I sit side-by-side with my countrymen everytime my son and I take a trip down to the Aviva to watch the boys in green play. I stand with them on the crammed Dart to get to and come from the stadium on the day of the game.

    I must admit I haven’t seen or heard a single echo of any of what you say from my fellow Irishmen directed at those of us who happen to THIS GENERATION to have been born in the north eastern counties. You are all talk and no hat. No basis, no facts, just jaundiced opinion. I don’t know what hurt you so to make you this way, but the same line of constant polarised negativity and six-county-irishman bashing gets a little tired. Why not take a day off and think a happy thought?

    The PUL community in this region can certainly be exasperating. I hold no hate for them. That does not mean that I will tolerate their excesses and their fundamental rejection of the realite, just because the second decade of the new millenium is inconvenient for them.

    If anything people like you need to get off our backs, we still have the welt marks from carrying the PUL community for 50 years, bless their knitted socks. Pretty soon we are all going to have to kick-in and ante-up to make this place work. Your constant whinging and negativity helps no-one.

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  88. babyface finlayson (profile) says:

    Nevin
    “Have you taken the trouble to examine the pedigree of the directors of ‘charities’ in this sphere who have acquired the status of limited liability(?) companies? It’s quite an eye opener. ”
    How about naming a few of those ‘charities’ and we can do the research from there?

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  89. Greenflag (profile) says:

    @ fitzjameshorse,

    ‘The deal (GFA) we got….is flawed ‘…

    It had to be. Nothing else would have worked . The state itself was flawed from it’s establishment and remains so even if there has been progress of a kind .. Given the diametrically opposed constitutional positions a fudge -call it a grey zone had to be part of the ‘deal’ . Enoch Powell he of the’ rivers of blood ‘ prophesy could never abide ‘ambiguity ‘ in political solutions . His view was you either have an NI fully integrated (Finchley style) within the UK or fully within the Irish Republic . There was no other solution . Had Powell’s view won out there would have been no GFA .Where NI would be today without it is anybody’s guess but I can’t imagine it being any better and most probably a good deal worse .

    Toleration doesn’t necessarily mean being ‘neutral ‘. I have strong views on various institutions-political , economic and religious and would not be ‘neutral ‘ as regards their beliefs -but I tolerate their existence and right to their particular point of view -no matter how mistaken, backward , or reactionary, or progressive or popular it may be .

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  90. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    @Mick, well, if you send me in pursuit of a wild goose, don’t feign shock at my frustration ;o)

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  91. Greenflag. You’ve summed it up about the statelet. They’ve been putting sticking plasters on it for forty five years [starting with Sunningdale in 1973, and none of them have really stabilized, for the simple reason demoracy can’t be applied to it since it depended for it’s very continued existence on electoral abuse and prompts the old saying ‘You can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear’
    in other words it’s irredeemable.

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  92. Jack2 (profile) says:

    Ciderman:
    “I guess they look up occasionally to regard all the colours of their national flag. Northern nationalists seem to keep their gaze firmly in the gutter.”

    Orangemen don’t seem to hold the colours of the Tricolour in high esteem when its hoisted onto the bonfires on the 11th night.

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  93. Nevin (profile) says:

    babyface, I’ve already said I steer clear of specifics but can use this website to do a director search. You can also get other detail on the Companies House website, some of it free.

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  94. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    FDM @ 12:02. Ouch! I touched a nerve then.

    Jack2,

    Could by way off the mark here but I have an inkling that Orangemen might not be nationalists.

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  95. Mc Slaggart (profile) says:

    @Mick

    I find your:
    ‘there will have to be adjustments’ = ” zero sum”

    Funny.

    Having ST Patricks day parades, improving GAA halls, its hard to think of any adjustments the Unionists have had to make in Tyrone that has not worked out well for them on a material basis.

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  96. Nevin (profile) says:

    “There will always be Sectarianism.”

    On the political sectarianism and support for dissent republican fronts it’s good to see Patsy McGlone rowing back from the actions of some of his SDLP colleagues:

    When questioned on the subject during a live News Letter webchat Mr McGlone said the motion – calling for the release of McGeough who shot postman Brush as he delivered a letter to a house in Aughnacloy – should never have been brought at council level in the first place.

    He added that it put councillor Daly in “a difficult position”.

    He said: “I understand the sentiments of Samuel Brush as an individual and others tried to play politics with this (motion). If on occasion one or two of our councillors maybe get that wrong that’s for the party to take charge of.”

    When pressed on the issue Mr McGlone – who faces unionist unity candidate Nigel Lutton, Sinn Fein’s Francie Molloy and Eric Bullick of the Alliance party in the election – said: “It was one councillor and I’ve had a chat with him since it.”

    Responding to the comments Mr Brush said he welcomed the change in attitude.

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  97. Gopher (profile) says:

    Well the zero sum nonsense is working well in Coleraine, just listened to Attwood on the radio, a proponent of the referendum and other madcap ideas saying he wanted existing civil service jobs kept and more back office civil service jobs moved to Northern Ireland from the mainland. You could not make it up. Does the penny not drop with these idiots at all?

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  98. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    @Mick, I did write to them, by the way. I respectfully asked what changes had taken place in the ethos of the Orange Order since its founding in 1795. I’ll let you know the response.

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  99. carl marks (profile) says:

    oneill
    Please show me on the McGurks thread where a unionist condemned the attack, and perhaps you could also show me the unionist condemnation of the recent fleg protests and the violence that accompanied them.
    I have seen PUL posters on this site trying desperately to change the subject and will avoid even talking about loyalist violence,
    Others ignore loyalist violence and or minimise it but always seem to be able to rant away about republican violence.
    Indeed one regular contributor’s bigotry is so entrenched that he does not understand that calling a nationalist a Fenian is offensive , probably common usage in his circles.

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  100. Nevin (profile) says:

    “he wanted existing civil service jobs kept and more back office civil service jobs moved to Northern Ireland from the mainland.”

    Gopher, if it’s cheaper to do the work in other parts of the UK then it’s likely, in an age of austerity, for UK agencies to go for the cheaper option. Perhaps someone can produce comparative civil service pay rates for Swansea, Coleraine and other DVLA centres

    Hundreds of new jobs at Swansea DVLA – October 2012

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