Time for Unionism to find a place for the Irish National flag in Northern Ireland
The Platform for Change discussion on Flags at Belfast’s Holiday Inn last night focused partially on the possibility of an agreed resolution to the Flags Row which could be implemented consistently across the newly proposed eleven local government councils.
It was a fairly tame affair, though multiple contributions by loyalist flag protesters (including one lasting for what seemed like 5 minutes in spite of the polite yet vain pleadings of Robin Wilson for said man to concede the floor to others) did ensure that a touch of spice was added to the proceedings.
These councils will be replacing the existing 26 councils, which have policies on official flag flying which vary considerably from no flags to the Union Flag flying 365 days a year, reflecting the political composition of the respective council majorities.
I find the flags discussion to be fascinating because a resolution founded on the guiding principles of equality and mutual respect has the potential to provide a stable foundation to the vexed issue of identity which can in time transform our political discourse in this part of Ireland.
The culture and ethos of the Northern Ireland state since partition has reflected exclusively the identity of the British and unionist community of the north. That is unsurprising, given that the state was consciously carved into existence to maximize the geographic area within which the protestant/ unionist community could govern as a comfortable majority.
The rationale for partition, oft repeated to republicans during the post-1969 conflict, was that there were- and remain- two Nations residing on the island, and that the crude slogan of ‘Brits Out’ ignored the reality of the enduring presence of the British, unionist populace in this part of Ireland.
Of course, the true losers in the partition settlement were the ‘ghosts at the feasts’, the northern nationalists. Unionism’s victory in securing partition did not secure a stable society precisely because northern nationalism’s status as part of the Irish Nation was suppressed by successive Unionist administrations and ignored by the southern political establishment. Unionism’s own rejection of the Two Nations argument, coupled with an ‘Irish Out’ mindset, kept the pot boiling until simmering point was reached in the late 1960s.
The Good Friday Agreement ushered in a new era for the north of Ireland, characterized by power-sharing, partnership and parity of esteem between the two main communities whose political differences had shaped a sorry history of conflict and instability dating back 90, 400 or 800 years (pick your starting point accordingly.)
Most tellingly, the architecture of the Good Friday Agreement robbed unionism of the whip hand it had traditionally wielded, replacing it with a system of governance defined by the mutual veto which characterizes the relationships existing within the Office of FM/DFM, the Executive and Assembly chamber itself.
The residual supremacist tendencies associated with unionism are evident in the frustrations currently manifesting themselves through the flag-associated street protests, and the oft-incoherent ramblings of the protest voices attempting to articulate the reasons for their blockades perfectly illustrate how disconcerting the transition from dominance to sharing has been for many in unionism- a process further hindered by the abdication of leadership by political unionism, which has sought to lead from behind far too often (the past 8 months alone have witnessed political unionist leaders behave appallingly in relation to the Famine Song row, St Patrick’s Church parade letter and conduct & then the infamous leaflet campaign, all before the Flag Riots kicked off sending unionist politicians into a frenzy.)
Resolving the contentious issue of flags will inevitably involve unionism having to legitimize and find a place for the Irish National Flag within Northern Ireland, something unionist leaders have yet to even countenance never mind float with their electorates.
Yet is as logical a progression from where we stand today as it is necessary from the point of view of any unionist serious about wanting to move past identity politics and into a new era of politics defined by the type of competing socio-economic visions and varying stances on moral issues which provide the political fault lines in many other societies.
Indeed, affording legitimacy and respecting the National Flag of the 40%+ of northern society voting for nationalist parties is a prerequisite step for a vision of a civic unionism capable of attracting support from across the religious and political divide.
The fact that nationalist parties have moved considerably over this issue in recent years reflects an appreciation within nationalism of the need to accept and find a place within a broader nationalist narrative for the British identity of unionists. Indeed, the model conduct of Sinn Fein’s first Belfast Lord Mayor, Alex Maskey, when he positioned the two National Flags of our divided peoples within his mayoral chamber, has provided us with a prototype approach capable of ultimately transcending identity politics.
Unionism’s hostility to the Irish National flag has been a constant theme throughout the existence of the northern state. The Flags and Emblems Act effectively banned displays of the Irish National flag, giving the PSNI RUC the powers to remove flags deemed contentious, as they did in 1964 at the urging of Ian Paisley, provoking the Divis Street Riots.
During the Troubles, the RUC caused uproar at a number of republican funerals by insisting upon the removal of the Irish National flag from coffins, whilst, only 4 years ago, one DUP councillor cited the presence of an Irish Tricolour in a majority nationalist part of Coleraine as the ‘tit’ provoking the ‘tat’ that was the sectarian murder of catholic man, Kevin McDaid (the councillor later apologised for his comment.)
Respecting the identity of The Other ultimately involves accepting and embracing each other as we define ourselves, affording others the same courtesy of self-defining themselves. That means nationalists and republicans accepting the Britishness of Unionists every bit as much as it means unionists accepting the Irishness of nationalists.
It is ironic that both National Flags can make a claim to seek to be inclusive in their very design. The Tricolour’s incorporation of the colours green and orange is meant to symbolize an ideal union forged between the traditions at peace, whilst the Union Flag’s incorporation of the Scottish and English flags along with that of St Patrick is meant to symbolize harmonious union between the Nations once comprising the United Kingdom.
Yet the very idea of coercing The Other into embracing the national identity of one or the other runs contrary to the letter and spirit of the Good Friday Agreement.
Many unionists will object to the flying of the Irish National flag, no doubt arguing that the Union Flag alone should fly in a region under British sovereignty. Alas, it is here that unionist politicians have shot themselves in the foot.
Over many years, flags apart from the Union Flag have flown officially from civic offices across the north of Ireland, including the British Armed Forces flag, the Government of NI Flag/ Ulster Banner (which has no official status today) and even the flags of the Orange Order and Royal Black Preceptory, which flew from at least one council for a period of time, Peter Robinson’s Castlereagh.
Perhaps conscious of this, at least one unionist political representative responded to my challenge regarding the need to legitimize the flying of the Irish National flag in the north at last night’s gathering.
Trevor Ringland, formerly of the One Small Step Campaign and now a Conservative Party spokesman, suggested in his reply that, in addition to the Union Flag, the Ulster Banner could be flown on some days, perhaps even the 9-County Ulster provincial flag periodically as well as the flag of St Patrick on March 17th. Trevor’s response was fascinating because he essentially was conceding that he’d accept all manner of flags being flown……… except the one in which the overwhelming majority of his northern nationalist neighbours regard as their National Flag.
Some steps still need to be taken………
Latest opinion polls state only 17% of people in NI want to live in an independent, all-island Irish state. The rest are happy with the status quo.
Why should the rest of us pander to this tiny, unpopular, extremist minority??
Almost since the crisis began, I have assumed that the attempted resolution would be a uniform policy on the eleven council buildings. this would get every non-nationalist off the hook. And nationalists need to resist this
for nationalism it would be a retrograde step.
last week, I was talking about Conflict Resolution in Norn Iron to post grad students at the University of Texas. And the Flags issue was brought up.
The next challenge for nationalists has to be to ensure that the Irish flag is acceptable on semi public buildings such as hotels. Does anybody ever recall seeing an Irish flag on the flagpole at the Europa, Holiday Inn or Ramada.
However defined..there are more Irish citizens in Belfast than say American or German.
And more than 40% of people voting can be assumed to be at ease with the flag and probably a lot of others have no real objection to the flag of a neighbouring peaceful country.
any objection to such a “provocative” gesture would surely only come from a noisy minority of people.
For in Texas, the Mexican flag is a common sight, in semi public places such as car lots and motels. No big deal.
Why not the Irish flag here?
sadly the problem with Conflict Resolution is that it cannot be imposed peacefully.
It is futile to attempt it post 1998 when neither side won or lost.
The US-Mexico war for example ended decisively and therefore had a victor and no real animosity to the Mexican flag today.
We should not pretend that our Conflict has ended.
we are just…sadly ….going about it in a different way.
Chris
Just a quick niggle to begin with
“giving the PSNI the powers to remove flags deemed contentious, as they did in 1964″
I’m not sure the PSNI were around in 1964.
The article, as usual, hit the nail on the head and only goes to show just how out of touch with rational thinking the “fleg” protesters are.
For me the mantra is very simple when it comes to flags and symbols, you either have both or you have none.
FJH
the more obvious reply on the mexican flag is that Texans and Mexicans last shot at each other at the Alamo. 150 years sort of lets things die down a bit. The difficulty for nationalists is that they’ve used the symbolism to the point where it’s over politicised and difficult to accept for the other side. The trashing of the Irish language being the most prominent example. The same holds true the other way round. It’s one of those areas where the harder activists push their agenda the more counterproductive it becomes.
Hard to get past that 17% figure though. Hard also for republicans to get past the allure of the flag.
It ought to be noted that there are no councils currently unilaterally choosing to fly the Irish national flag, and I don’t think there is anything in law that would prevent them from doing so..
Chris Donnelly
“Of course, the true losers in the partition settlement were the ‘ghosts at the feasts’, the northern nationalists”
as I’ve pointed out before the biggest losers at partition were Southern Unionists, they have been eliminated, wiped out, vernichtet. Northern self-pity is increasingly descending in to a perverted narcissism which can’t see beyond its own narrow horizons.
Chris, many unionists would object to the description of the Tricolour as the “Irish National Flag”. It is not – it is the Irish Republican flag. This is a vital distinction, and if you ignore it you dismiss those unionists who consider themselves just as Irish as you, but who have a different concept of what being Irish entails.
I disagree and reject the blinkered rationale that the true losers in the partition settlement were the ‘ghosts at the feasts’ – the northern nationalists. It is a historical, recorded fact that Irish Unionists in the southern state where decimated post partition – death, injury, land grabs, expulsion ensured the removal of the ‘Irish-British’ people in the 26 counties. It was such action that generated fear, that exists to this day, of the ‘Free State’ and it’s National flag within Northern Unionism.
I also disagree that Unionism secured an outright victory with partition. Irish Unionism fought for Ireland to remain in the Kingdom and at worse for 9 counties not the 6 which created the new region of the UK named Northern Ireland. Lord Edward Carson detested the Government of Ireland Act and it was partition creating this state that forced Carson’s conscience to abandon ‘Ulster Unionism’.
Not withstanding, I accept that a minority of people in Northern Ireland hold an allegiance to either the southern state or the creation of a new all Island identity. A minority within that minority still seek to eradicate the Irish-British of this Island and such ideology has no place, at all, in the positive relationships that can be built here.
The constitutional position of this region is enshrined in the GFA until the democratic wish of the people here wish to change it thus love or loathe the national flag of the UK, the Union Flag is (presently) the only flag I agree should be flown for civic or ceremonial occasions, and given 84% of Councils in Britain fly designated days I don’t see designated days as an erosion of my British-Irish identity or culture. As a Veteran I also never flew the flag 24/7 while in service and thus don’t accept the argument that it needs to fly 24/7-365 to maintain my ‘britishness’.
I do however recognize that my Irish-Gael-Celt (in Northern Ireland) cultured neighbors view the Union flag differently, and thus as a gesture of good will acknowledging political times have indeed changed as well as a symbol of consensual politic at work, I would have no issue with the Irish National Flag & the EU flag flying alongside the Union Flag on designated days. Irish, British, European – the predominant peoples ‘identity’ that make up this Island archipelago of Western Europe.
On the flip side…. I am but 1 man, Irish because I was born on this Island of ours, British because my culture & sovereignty is such & fiercely a provincial Ulsterman….. oh yeah, and a political persuader to the positives of being an integral part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but I don’t need a Union Jack or a Tri Colour to express any of that.
Interesting how immigrants to the UK need to swear a British pledge of allegiance before they are allowed to live in the UK. (Northern Ireland included) And and therefore claim all the welfare benefits that goes along with being a British Citizen.
http://www.google.co.uk/url?q=http://www.centreforcitizenship.org/pledge.html&sa=U&ei=Xz0jUavKN6WV0QXw3oCICQ&ved=0CBsQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNGfJoFO0blInIuUa3QiaLtQIjmlSQ
Glenn B
I do however recognize that my Irish-Gael-Celt (in Northern Ireland) cultured neighbors view the Union flag differently, and thus as a gesture of good will acknowledging political times have indeed changed as well as a symbol of consensual politic at work, I would have no issue with the Irish National Flag & the EU flag flying alongside the Union Flag on designated days.
Surely a better ‘gesture of good will’ would be joint Dublin/London rule?
Or even better, let’s just accept a single Irish state, trample on the memory of the thousands who died resisting Irish Nationalist terrorism, the tens of thousands driven from their homes and off their farms in the past forty years and give the IRA what they want?
Thank God people like you weren’t in our armed forces during World War Two.
UPC
Latest opinion polls state only 17% of people in NI want to live in an independent, all-island Irish state. The rest are happy with the status quo.
Why should the rest of us pander to this tiny, unpopular, extremist minority??
We don’t have rule by opinion poll. If a majority of those elected to a council want to have a no-flags policy we have to assume their voters are happy with that. Wanting to keep milking the British taxpayer is not the same as wanting to have a union jack flying on your town hall.
The question really is should each council make its own policy or is their any hope we can come to some kind of agreement.
Or at the very least agree that it is a matter for each council acting alone.
FJH, I would welcome the day the Tricolour would fly on Hotels etc. along side the flags of other european and international states, so long as the National Union Flag is given prominence according to protocol. I trush that similar policy will become much more widespread in the south too.
UPC
“Why should the rest of us pander to this tiny, unpopular, extremist minority??”
Better not shout that one too loudly, the gameplan of the Ulster People’s Forum is to get the rest of us to pander to a tiny, unpopular extremist minority.
Alanbrooke
“The difficulty for nationalists is that they’ve used the symbolism to the point where it’s over politicised and difficult to accept for the other side”
This isn’t a one way street Alan, we find British symbols equally difficult to accept. The difference is that they are in place over us and we didn’t have the right at the time to object. If symbols are so difficult to accept because of the offense they cause, then the British ones should come down from civic buildings, treated just like the Irish symbols.
Mick
The 17% figure is actually really easy to get past. Just because the polls say only 17% want unification doesn’t mean the 40%+ who came from an “Irish-Gael-Celt” background (thanks Glenn b) don’t have some attachment to their national flag.
As for Chris’ hope, I wish it could come true, but after months of seeing the unrest it has convinced me that the Unionist population will never accept the Irish Tricolour in any meaningful way. The only place my flag belongs is apparently on top of an eleventh night bonfire.
If they won’t accord us respect, I refuse to accord their symbols respect and I support Sinn Fein and SDLP measures were possible to create a neutral cultural vacuum..
If they wish a constructive end to this dispute it is up to their leaders and politicians to display a magnanimity of spirit that has so far eluded them. Maybe the eleven council model discussions will provide the opportunity to provide that model. What I think will REALLY happen is that they will deadlock and the presence of the flag on civic buildings will be defined by the voting strengths of the parties on any given council.
Going by the responses of our unionist contributors that looks like a big fat no, they’re not for any accommodation with the Irish National Flag i.e. the Irish Tricolour. Sorry lads but in the immortal words of Sam Cooke, “a change Is gonna come”, whether you like it or not so it would be to you advantage to find an accommodation on your terms.
Chris,
To be honest I think the Shinners need to be more proactive in relation to the whole Flags issue. The actions of Willie and Jamie have just deflected from the very tame response from SF leadership to this issue. In Council Areas where there is a large Nationalist Majority why dont SF propose motions to fly the Tricolour on designated days (just one or two) that are deemd to be appropriate. i.e. St Paddy’s Day.
What is the point of having an electoral mandate if the party are’nt going to use it to reflect the National Identity of it’s voters. Who else is going to push this issue on our behalf if Sinn Fein dont?
Obelisk
What I think will REALLY happen is that they will deadlock and the presence of the flag on civic buildings will be defined by the voting strengths of the parties on any given council.
More than likely and the best course might be for us all to accept that. Councils could even get creative with flags. Put up the french flag on Bastille Day and the US flag on 4 July. It could help tourism.
If they wish a constructive end to this dispute it is up to their leaders and politicians to display a magnanimity of spirit that has so far eluded them. Maybe the eleven council model discussions will provide the opportunity to provide that model. What I think will REALLY happen is that they will deadlock and the presence of the flag on civic buildings will be defined by the voting strengths of the parties on any given council.
Unfortunately the balkanisation of contentious issues such as flagd and language is not a solution. Haven’t we learned from peace walls and rerouting that creating monoethnic enclaves causes more problems than it solves?
Keano
‘In Council Areas where there is a large Nationalist Majority why dont SF propose motions to fly the Tricolour on designated days (just one or two) that are deemd to be appropriate. i.e. St Paddy’s Day.’
Kindly explain the connection between St Patrick and the tricolour. It eludes me.
In council areas where there is a large nationalist majority (presumably including the UK City of Culture) the Tricolour could be flown where those councils are either self-financing or receiving financial assistance from sources other than the British exchequer.
To fly the Irish tricolour in any other circumstances is merely an act of self-delusion.
I’ve been spending the last few days in lovely Sligo. A cheap break in an excellent hotel is hard to beat. I can see the three flags that fly at the hotel, from my hotel room. They are the Republics flag, EU flag and the US flag. No sign of the British flag. This is common in the ROI. Why is this the case?
Chris
If there was a UI tomorrow do you believe that the republican tricolour would be the flag of the state? Would republicans embrace a new flag and anthem if it made unionists feel comfortable in the new state? I personally am ok with the union flag being flown less if it makes nationalists feel more comfortable in NI. As an Ireland rugby fan who has to endure your flags and anthem at international games in Dublin I appreciate were nationalists are coming from regarding this issue.
Old Mortality
The same connection St.George has to the English, or St.Andrew to the Scottish. We have taken the feast day of our recognised patron saint, and invested all our emotion into that day as THE national day.
I don’t have any truck with this needling from certain sectors to try and decouple St.Patrick’s Day as a religious festival from being the national day of Ireland. That’s how the day is perceived globally, by the majority of the people on the island of Ireland and even on the island next door.
It is too late to fundamentally alter the perceived character of the day. So there is your answer, kindly explained. National day, national flag. And please don’t go with the old ‘it should be a religious festival open to everyone’ line. You are welcome to celebrate St.Patrick’s as a purely religious festival, I’m not stopping you.
But don’t object to the fact that your neighbours have infused the celebration with a hefty dose of national pride, making it much more than a religious celebration for them.
“To fly the Irish tricolour in any other circumstances is merely an act of self-delusion.”
You know what? I agree, The only way we could get away with flying the flag is with Unionist consent in a show of respect for both traditions otherwise it would come across as faintly sad. Is such consent in the offing? I doubt it. That is why Union Jacks come down, this negative gesture of equality is easier to accomplish than a positive gesture.
Now a realistic alternative, as Forkhandles suggested, is the nine county Ulster flag being used a civic flag. To met that is a better option than no flags, but while I am not happy at the no flags compromise, for me it is better than the one flag over all alternative.
Alan N/Ards
“If there was a UI tomorrow do you believe that the republican tricolour would be the flag of the state? Would republicans embrace a new flag and anthem if it made unionists feel comfortable in the new state? I personally am ok with the union flag being flown less if it makes nationalists feel more comfortable in NI. As an Ireland rugby fan who has to endure your flags and anthem at international games in Dublin I appreciate were nationalists are coming from regarding this issue.
I concede, you have made excellent points.
Republicans (and Nationalists) SHOULD embrace a new flag and anthem if a United Ireland comes around. I would personally favour the St.Patrick’s Saltire. It’s a flag that both traditions can get behind, it is thematically similar to other flags in our archipelago, and design wise its actually pretty stylish. I shudder to think what monstrosity modern art would inflict on us in the name of equality. Maybe a map of the island on a multi-coloured background…
As for the Rugby situtation you’re right. As long as there are two jurisdictions on the Island and the sporting body covers both, then there should be some agreement regarding what flags to fly and anthemns to play.
Let’s take recent polls at face value. If there was a 20% Chinese minority here people would be falling over themselves to display Chinese flags around Chinese holidays.
Unionism could agree to display a Tricolour on St Patricks Dat. For those confused on the link, visit a major city on the day. You can include UK cities in that. They could also display it around sporting occasions as appropriate – when the rugby team is playing, or when someone local was representing an Irish team. In both cases it could be placed in context with other flags. It’d cost nothing, and strengthen Unionisms hand if they were to pursue a designated days everywhere policy. That the notion cannot be contemplated without the variety of reactions above speaks volumes.
By the by, the Protestant population of Ireland was dropping from at least the mid 1800s, and one of the main contributors was the Ne Temere decree, which the Irish Government could hardly have leguslated against even if it was so minded. And while there was undoubtedly some aspect of sectarianism, I’ve seen scant evidence it was coordinated or sustained beyond the chaos of the period. On the other hand, the good ancestors of our Protestant friends brought us the Belfast Pigeons, so lets not pretend anyone is on the side of the angels, like.
Class phone, class. “Pogrom”, rather than pidgeons. A doozy that one.
“Hard to get past that 17% figure though.”
Not so very hard – the 2011 Census showed 25% of the population opting for an ‘Irish only’ identity. That’s plus 8% without even venturing into what ‘Northern Irish’ means.
obelisk,
I don’t have any truck with this needling from certain sectors to try and decouple St.Patrick’s Day as a religious festival from being the national day of Ireland.
Who’s trying to decouple st patrick from ireland? It’s Irish Republicanism that should be decoupled from Ireland. Objections to the tricolour are not objections to ireland in general.
“It’s Irish Republicanism that should be decoupled from Ireland”
It’s the predominant political philosophy on the island, why should it be decoupled to satisfy the hysterical whimpering of a paranoid minority?
Kensei (profile) 19 February 2013 at 11:11 am
Let’s take recent polls at face value. If there was a 20% Chinese minority here people would be falling over themselves to display Chinese flags around Chinese holidays.
The Chinese community in NI hasn’t spent the past forty years murdering thousands of us and forcing tens of thousands of us out of our homes and off our border farms in the name of their flag.
Might explain the difference.
Irrelevant if we are talking about moving to a more normal society.
Again – the Union Jack has been just as abused. By the actual state too, and not just third parties.
Chris
Ughhh! Not a niggle at all- an appalling oversight on my behalf. In my (feeble) defence, it was composed in the wee small hours of the morn, but thanks for flagging (no pun intended) it up!
Mick and keano
You are correct about Sinn Fein, and I shall be visiting that matter at a cinema near you soon….
As a taster, two things.
Firstly, it has a lot to do with the psyche of northern republicans: deferential and loyal to the point where such an initiative would have to be passed on from High before even being considered by local councillors.
Secondly, northern nationalists remain uncomfortable with the notion of exercising their power unilaterally from positions of authority in the north in a way that has never inhibited unionists, no doubt a legacy of the latter’s history and practice of being in a position to so do. Hence majority nationalist councils mistakenly opted for positions of ‘no flags’ (‘let’s offend nobody’ trumped ‘let’s challenge everybody’) in the past generation and failed to address the issue of how institutions of the state down to the names of roads, bridges and buildings reflected exclusively the unionist tradition.
Consider this: after 14 years of a Belfast-based Irish president in the Oireachtas, nationalists did not even have the self-confidence to propose even a road being named in her honour, never mind statue erected nor bridge named for her.
Contrastingly, Larne’s unionists have recently erected a crown contraption at a roundabout and Antrim unionists paid for a massive Union Flag floral display at Antrim Castle for the British Queen’s jubilee celebrations, not to mention Lisburn’s decision to give land for a UDR statue in the town centre and naming bridges at its civic centre for the British Queen.
And then there’s Castlereagh’s Robinson Centre, named in honour of our First Minister.
We’ll know when nationalists have psychologically shifted when either Derry or Magherafelt Councils consider proposing a McGuinness Centre in honour of the Deputy First Minister.
Obelisk: The same connection St.George has to the English, or St.Andrew to the Scottish. We have taken the feast day of our recognised patron saint, and invested all our emotion into that day as THE national day.
Actually, its THE national day in both parts of Ireland, and in both traditions. Attaching the Tricolour to a shared occasion isn’t going to help either the sharing or the occasion.
Will you make the effort to share St Patrick’s day? Think of the possible benefits.
Kensei: Irrelevant if we are talking about moving to a more normal society.
Tell that to the tens of thousands of victims who have lost husbands, wives, children, friends, homes, farms, limbs and jobs – all in the name of that flag.
You insensitive fool.
Obelisk
‘The same connection St.George has to the English, or St.Andrew to the Scottish.’
You’ll not find much excitement in England or Scotland on their saints days. St Patrick is notable only for the common belief that he brought Christianity to Ireland, not for any contribution to nationhood. It is surely ironic that a republican flag is flourished so vigorously in celebration of a Christian festival. Only the Irish, it seems, suffer from such confusion: Robespierre, Danton et al. would find it bewildering.
Contemporary celebrations of St Patrick seem to be a little contrived with the central theme being hedonism, even in the RoI where the inspiration appears to derive more from North America than Ireland itself.
Chris Donnelly: We’ll know when nationalists have psychologically shifted when either Derry or Magherafelt Councils consider proposing a McGuinness Centre in honour of the Deputy First Minister.
He’s only DFM. It’s not like he was a hunger striker or anything.
Seriously though – are SF going to make a big deal about someone working a British Executive? Gerry Adams felt that job was beneath him, for instance.
St Andrews Cross is flown in Scotland where Scottish people live and the Red Dragon flies in Wales where the Welsh live .
Why should’nt the Irish Tricolour fly in Northern Ireland where Irish people live and where almost half the population consider themselves to be Irish .Unionist flag wavers need to wise up and accept both flags .
Greenflag: St Andrews Cross is flown in Scotland where Scottish people live and the Red Dragon flies in Wales where the Welsh live .
Why should’nt the Irish Tricolour fly in Northern Ireland where Irish people live
Do you really need this one explained to you?
Because UPC its the flag/symbol most nationalists identify with.
gf, tac, are you mixing up “irish” and “irish nationalist/republican” again?
UPC as a supporter of the flag rioters you’re operating with a massive double standard there. Why should the rest of us pander to an unrepresentative minority headed by ego trippers Bryson and Frazer? But it’s OK with you for them to block roads while the vast majority in their community see them for the pathetic jokers they are
Of course Andrew silly me, lets rephrase that then, people who carry Irish passports, republicans, Irish nationalists and people who dont care about a coloured piece of cloth.
Old Mortality
The connection was not supposed to be 100%, merely to illustrate that a connection between a patron saint and a level of national feeling is not unusual. Indeed, some english wish they celebrated St.George’s Day the same way we celebrate St.Patrick’s.
“Contemporary celebrations of St Patrick seem to be a little contrived with the central theme being hedonism, even in the RoI where the inspiration appears to derive more from North America than Ireland itself.”
A better comparison would be with Bastille Day in France or July 4th in America, both national days. I really don’t get why it is so difficult to grasp that for us St.Patrick’s has evolved being just the Saint’s holiday into a full on festival of what it means to be Irish. Who cares if a lot of came back from the states? I like the pageant and spectacle of how it is celebrated now.
Which leads me to my next point
“Actually, its THE national day in both parts of Ireland, and in both traditions. Attaching the Tricolour to a shared occasion isn’t going to help either the sharing or the occasion.”
Look, I’ve said before everyone is of course welcome to celebrate the day, but this isn’t just a peculiar Northern Ireland thing where we have to balance it in terms of equal opportunity. This is a celebration on the entire island, in large parts of North America, Australia and even Great Britain. It is a time when the Irish Diaspora and their many friends sit and celebrate. It’s a time on the island to just revel in being Irish(Celt-Gael). It is impossible to redefine St.Patrick’s Day, to strip it of things like the Tricolour or the overabundant use of the colour green.
I can see it expanding here to be inclusive, but I can’t see it being denuded of some of it’s trappings to suit local tastes. It would make it feel like less than what it is, part of a global celebration. If you want to feel more part of it, work with us to ADD to it.
MF 7.59 It’s interesting that all those who quote the small minority declaring in favour of the UI case are ultra careful to avoid mentioning the distorting factor apparent in the figures of the economic woes of the Replublic these times, as if to mention that would cast doubt on the relevance of the figures. That would never do would it?
“gf, tac, are you mixing up “irish” and “irish nationalist/republican” again?”
This is starting to get silly. Can’t use the adjective Irish without someone jumping on the use. Maybe we should just use Taigs and Huns to get past such difficulties as someone once suggested.
Correct Oblelisk and there was me for years wondering why the PUL community carried union jacks on the 12th.
“St.Patrick’s has evolved being just the Saint’s holiday into a full on festival of what it means to be Irish.”
Mostly alcohol and junk food.
A fair enough summation I suppose.
@UPC
Gladly. I’ll say, I’m sorry for your pain but I had no part in it. To stop the conditions in which the troubles occured happening agaon we need to move to a more normal.society and this is part of it.
Tough cases makes bad law and the fetish of victims is often a choice of the past over the future. Insensitive yes, but the world is a tough place. Plus you’ve still not acknowledged loyalist and state violence under the Union Jack. You horrendous bigot.
Loving, absolutely loving by tge way, the people saying St Patricks Day is shared while simultaneously demanding the Irish Republican tradition, ya know, the biggest one, be exercised from it. Such delicious cognitive dissonance from our enlightened Unionist posters. Yum.
BluesJazz
“Mostly alcohol and junk food.
A fair enough summation I suppose.”
Because the PUL community acquits themselves SO well on the 12th of July. Contempt for your fellows aside in that gem of a statement, anything constructive to add?
I’ve been thinking, and I’d like an answer from our Unionist contributers. What does being Irish mean to you?
Andrew Gallagher objected to the use of the term to refer to Irish Nationalists, presumably because he feels Irish on some level.
I’ve seen it mentioned down the years, I’m both British and Irish etc.etc., Irish doesn’t mean Nationalist etc. etc.
Well, how does it fit? Is Irish just a geographical term to you to describe where you live?
Or do you define yourself as part of the Irish Nation? Which is odd because a lot of your leaders seem to set themselves against a great deal of what the Irish Nation defines itself by, from the culture to the flag to the language to our interpretation of History.
Do those PUL who claim to be Irish on some level, how do you see yourselves fitting in with the much greater part of the those who claim to be Irish on this island.
Maybe the two Nation theory espoused by the founders of this statelet is true, and the Irish you aspire to is actually much different from how the notion of Irishness is viewed by the majority of the people on this island?
Because given how the majority view the notion of Irishness, and how much of that is rejected by the PUL community, are the two ideas at all compatible?
I used to think they were, but recent events and all have made me wonder. I hope I’m wrong.
The article is a maximal unbalanced ‘republican’ version of the truth, yet it is very far from the whole truth. Chris lovingly yet again takes the opportunity to deliver his version of the troubles and of Northern Ireland generally.
Sinn Fein would like the world to believe that the Irish tricolor is the true flag of all Catholics in NI yet increasing evidence seems to undermine this assertion.
There is a debate to be had about symbols, and i’m quite open minded about it, but certainly not to pander to Sinn Feins disproportionate claims(nor that of big house unionism and flag protestors).Its difficult to remain openminded when its the extremes leading the debate, neither of whom i would trust as far as could throw them.
There’s increased evidence of a majority of both or the 3 tribes in NI wishing to remain under UK sovereignty for one reason or another, the question should be how is these increasing numbers in the middle have their wishes reflected, rather than having polarised versions always calling the shots.
obelisk,
It’s a time on the island to just revel in being Irish(Celt-Gael). It is impossible to redefine St.Patrick’s Day, to strip it of things like the Tricolour or the overabundant use of the colour green.
There’s nothing exclusive about green, shamrocks or st patrick. All are cross community symbols and all predate our current problems. It’s the revolutionary symbols that cause division.
Maybe we should just use Taigs and Huns to get past such difficulties as someone once suggested.
I think that was me. And yes, it would stop us talking past each other. And maybe it would also give us a better understanding of the nuances of others’ positions.
“Resolving the contentious issue of flags will inevitably involve unionism having to legitimize and find a place for the Irish National Flag within Northern Ireland…”
Nonsense. The fleg issue is a symptom of a sick and destructive identity politics that both unionism and nationalism are fully committed to. These issues wont be resolved by sticking tricolours up everywhere. The promotion of exclusive identities of the orange or green sort is what is preventing Norn Iron from moving on.
As Doug Stanhope said “Nationalism does nothing but teach you how to hate people that you never met.”
The flag issue wont be resolved until we reject the politics of tribalism/nationalism. The reality is no matter what background you are from we all live in an internationalist culture. We all eat chinese food, watch american film, chat to our friends on facebook, drink latte’s etc the idea that we are two different tribes with two different cultures is just not true.
While i dont support any kind of nationalism, british or irish, maybe the only way to solve these sorts of issues is the promotion of a shared Northern Irish indentity. John McCallister may have hit the nail on the head when he said recently that the Northern Irish identity is the beating heart of a shared future.
More flags will not resolve the flag issue.
From what I’ve seen, St Patricks day seems to be sponsored by Guinness.
In fact it’s the ‘brand’ many people seem to associate with ‘Irish’ along with leprechauns and wolfhounds.
Oh and Terry Wogan.
The Union flag protests are hardly “unrepresentative”, as some have claimed here, given that the recent Ipsos MORI poll showed they had 51% support.
Andrew Gallagher objected to the use of the term to refer to Irish Nationalists, presumably because he feels Irish on some level.
I’ve seen it mentioned down the years, I’m both British and Irish etc.etc., Irish doesn’t mean Nationalist etc. etc.
Well, how does it fit? Is Irish just a geographical term to you to describe where you live?
On some level? I’m as Irish as they come. I’m as Irish as you. I just don’t fit into your little box.
What annoys me most is the unspoken assumption that because one feels British or Northern Irish that one has to feel correspondingly less Irish. This is usually because the speaker has lumped lots of separate things under the label “Irish” and considered them as an indivisible unit. The stereotypical view of “Irishness” includes lots of things that even many diehard Nationalists cannot today meet (Catholic, Gaeilgeoir…). Does this make them less Irish? There are some who would say yes, but thankfully this is a minority view nowadays. Being an Irish Nationalist is no more a prerequisite for being Irish than being a Scottish Nationalist is for being Scottish. But of course Ireland is more complicated than Scotland because we have an ethnic dimension to our problems too.
I don’t think an “Irish nation” exists. At least not in the sense that people from other countries would recognise. There is still an ambivalence – among both Nationalists and Unionists alike – about whether Unionists count as proper Irishmen. Until this is resolved to mutual satisfaction, I don’t think the term “nation” is meaningful.
I am Irish, just as my ancestors were Irish, back as far as I can trace. Yes, at some point many of them (but not all, as you can tell from my surname) came from England or elsewhere. That may make me an ethnic-unionist (i.e. a Hun), but I am not a political Unionist. Yet another ambiguity.
So when anyone on this or any other forum uses the words “Irish”, “British”, “Unionist” or “Nationalist” my first reaction is and always will be “DEFINE YOUR TERMS BEFORE USING THEM”.
Flags are not the real issue here. Both sides show a complete lack of respect for the flags they supposedly follow by hanging them from lampposts until they become rags.
This entire episode appears to contrived by SF/SDLP with the unwitting support of the Alliance Party to obscure from nationalists their abject failure in securing parity of esteem across a range of issues for ‘Irishness’ in the north and securing practical advantages of a uniting Ireland. For instance, eliminating the problems with transferring money north and south. Roaming charges etc. It’s curious also how little has been achieved in terms of benefits for Irish speakers even though SF have the culture ministry. There’s no Acht na Gaeilge, no Irish language strategy and the Minister has remained silent following the decision by Foras na Gaeilge to close Gaelscéal. That Irish language newspaper was fulfilling the UK Government’s committment to support one Irish language newspaper, a commitment freely made in the European Charter for Minority Languages, a charter which the UK government committed to sign up to in the GFA.
It seems to me that the flags issue is being used by both sides to distract us from their failures to change things for the better for all (rather than enhance their own power and prestige).
@ UPC,
Do you really need this one explained to you?
No .If it doesn’t make sense to you that’s your problem . Fly both flags or none as the man said or use the flag protocol that the rest of the UK uses and give up on unionist outdated ‘triumphalism ‘ which is past it’s sell date by a half century or more .
Empire’s gone old bean get used to it !
“I don’t think an “Irish nation” exists.”
You are quite simply wrong. It does exist, and it encompasses the vast majority of people on this island. Just because you have difficulty seeing yourself within the Irish Nation but still want to claim the label of Irish does not abnegate the existence of the Irish Nation.
Just for fun I looked up the definition of Nation in the Oxford dictionary. It seems to be the common reference point when trying to define words.
“a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory”
The territory we can define as the island of Ireland. The common descent bit is easy too, both groups on this island now clearly share common descent.
What about the other criteria? Language, well we all speak english. But there is the added complication of the Irish Langauge. It’s not spoken much today, but one group has an affection for it whilst the other seemingly sees offense if it is used in any context, such as letterheads or on vans.
If you complain that it is. Why is that? Because the Irish Language is a part of our cultural history in a way it isn’t for the PUL community.
Do we have a shared culture? Given how the flag protesters object to the perceived erosion of British Culture, and how they object to anything that can be percieved as part of the Irish culture, it doesn’t look likely. Orange Order, GAA, Union Jack, Tricolor,Irish Language,Ulster-Scots. To be fair what unites is is greater than what divides us, but what unites us happens to be the humdrum mundane stuff of life whereas what divides us happens to be the red meat of our respective cultures. Like it or not there seems to be a pretty hefty cultural divide there.
And finally History. We share the history of course but we have wildly different interpretations of it. What is the Unionist opinion of Robert Emmett? Daniel O’Connell? Charles Parnell? John Redmond? John Hume? Gerry Adams?
I don’t get it. It almost seems that to validate the Unionist theory of two nations on the island (and hence justify partition), you have to pretend mine doesn’t even exist.
So I ask again, how do you define yourself as Irish and how does it relate to the 85% or so of people on this island who consider themselves a part of the Irish Nation (hardly a little box by the way)?
We aren’t going to sort out this culture war until we at least acknowledge there are actually sides with grievances after all.
Andrew Gallagher ,
‘I don’t think an “Irish nation” exists. ‘
I’ve though about this long and hard and I want to assure you it does exist . You may not wish to believe in gravity but it also exists . It (gravity )may get complicated in the world of quantum physics -but theres no issue with the existence or non existence of the Irish nation -ditto for the Scots /Welsh and English etc .
‘At least not in the sense that people from other countries would recognise.’
That would be their problem but it’s immaterial to the us Irish .
Some may get ‘upset ‘ (not I ) at being mistaken for Scots or English etc etc but then Canadians are mistaken for Americans and Flemings for Dutchmen and Walloons for French and Austrians for Germans etc etc .
So what ?
One other point -the vast majority of people on this island don’t have any doubt about their nationality be they Irish or British .There is a small section who are equally comfortable with all ‘terms ‘ and a smaller number who are not .
Greenflag:No .If it doesn’t make sense to you that’s your problem . Fly both flags or none as the man said or use the flag protocol that the rest of the UK uses and give up on unionist outdated ‘triumphalism ‘ which is past it’s sell date by a half century or more.
If the Free State returns to the Union your argument might be valid.
@fitzjameshorse
‘For in Texas, the Mexican flag is a common sight, in semi public places such as car lots and motels. No big deal.
Why not the Irish flag here?’
Because British Unionists are not Texans
Now we all know that Texans have a reputation for being ‘big ‘ .Alas the opposite is true for political unionism on this island -Petty -small -narrow minded -lacking in imagination and tolerance etc etc etc -It’s a long list and not worth repeating – Since it’s NI manifestation in 1920 it’s become even more so .
There’s nowt can be done about it . Evolution is a slow process and that includes political evolution.
‘If the Free State returns to the Union your argument might be valid.’
Why ? And more so why would that even be necessary ? I’ll presume /assume that in the event of a UI -the British ‘minority ‘ in that Ireland will continue to fly their beloved ‘Union Jack’ on the 12th July etc ? So we might as well all get used to both flags flying together now ..
BTW
The Free State ceased to exist in 1949 .
Try and catch up now like a good chap !
“just for fun I looked up the definition of Nation in the Oxford dictionary. It seems to be the common reference point when trying to define words.
“a large body of people united by common descent, history, culture, or language, inhabiting a particular state or territory”
Oh dear looks suspiciously like the definition of the Ulster Prod
PS Prods define themselves as “British Citizens”
Concubhar,
Firstly, there was nothing remotely “unwitting” about The Alliance Party’s decision regarding the flying of the flag at City Hall. The issue had been on the agenda for a long, long time and Alliance made a principled decision in relation to it.
Secondly, you may have been out of Belfast for a while now, but your analysis of general flag flying is factually incorrect. There are multitudes of Union Flags flying in the City, many of them provocatively close to interface areas, however the situation is no longer replicated in Nationalist areas. There is an almost total absence of tricolours flying in such areas mainly due to the hard work which has been put in on the ground by SF and community organisations. Just look at The Short Strand as a perfect example of that.
Union flags have been provactively erected opposite the Catholic Chapel yet there are no tricolours flying anywhere in the district despite the ongoing provocation.
keano10: Secondly, you may have been out of Belfast for a while now, but your analysis of general flag flying is factually incorrect. There are multitudes of Union Flags flying in the City, many of them provocatively close to interface areas, however the situation is no longer replicated in Nationalist areas. There is an almost total absence of tricolours flying in such areas mainly due to the hard work which has been put in on the ground by SF and community organisations. Just look at The Short Strand as a perfect example of that.
Seriously, why are you telling blatant lies?
There were foreign Irish flags erected along the Ormeau Road and Mountpottinger Road before Christmas. Main thoroughfares used on a daily basis by thousands of protestants. Many of them still remain up.
Along with fresh graffiti threatening further attempted pogroms on the vulnerable, isolate Cluan Place cul-de-sac surrounded by Short Strand:
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/5600/screenshot20130219at144.png
gf,
It’s easy not to be in doubt when you’re in the majority. We seem to have moved from a position where instead of forcing an identity on others we exclude them from that identity altogether. I don’t call that progress.
Nationhood is not like gravity. it is an act of collective faith, and just like other acts of faith such as money, banks, democracy or justice it demonstrably does stop existing if one stops believing in it.
Obelisk: You are quite simply wrong. It does exist, and it encompasses the vast majority of people on this island. Just because you have difficulty seeing yourself within the Irish Nation but still want to claim the label of Irish does not abnegate the existence of the Irish Nation.
I see you have gone for a broad definition of Nation. Common descent (tick), shared island (tick) Well, fair enough; but even though you have adopted a broad ‘definition’ of nation, your ‘identity’ is clearly too narrow to include everyone. And you saw that, you worked out that your “Irish nation” includes 85% of Irish people on the island. That is not impressive.
What about the other 15% – who are we? Are you sneaking up on the two nation theory by the back door?
It’s patently absurd that no Irish tricolour flies from Ireland’s second city on Saint Patrick’s Day, despite flying from building after building in many other cities across the world.
However, while dealing with the existence of two (or more) ‘traditions’ on the island, I would strongly caution against embrace of the bogus “two nations” theory to justify anything.
http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/10/26/parlor-games-why-no-talk-of-two-scotlands-despite-their-sectarian-divide/comment-page-1/
Reader
“That is not impressive.
What about the other 15% – who are we?”
The wife up in the attic?
Reader
“I see you have gone for a broad definition of Nation. Common descent (tick), shared island (tick) Well, fair enough; but even though you have adopted a broad ‘definition’ of nation, your ‘identity’ is clearly too narrow to include everyone. And you saw that, you worked out that your “Irish nation” includes 85% of Irish people on the island. That is not impressive.”
What I am trying to figure out is what Irishness means. Andrew Gallagher gave an answer where he said he was as Irish as myself, and then said he didn’t believe in the existence of an Irish nation.
The only way I can conceive of it is that to that minority of 15% what is Irishness? Is it some sort of soft mush without definition or identifiable characteristics? Anyone in Ireland can be Irish because it means nothing? By extension of his logic, if there is no Irish nation, what does that mean for those of who claim to be part of the Irish Nation that covers the majority of the inhabitants of the island.
Are we fakers? Charalatans? Squatters? Are we pretending to be part of a made up fantasy nation? Should we broaden the definition of nation to the extent it loses all meaning? Can it be stretched too far?
I mean, the vast majority of people on this island, for all their diverse opinions and backgrounds still share in that commonality of culture. I am furiously trying to understand how you relate to Irish culture. Your leaders and many in your electorate take such vicious exception to any expression of it, yet many of them will still claim to be Irish, if Irish and British.
Do we even share the same conception of what being Irish is? Are the two notions compatible. How do you relate to the Irish Nation AS IT IS, not the blank slate mush you seem to think it is.
“What about the other 15% – who are we? Are you sneaking up on the two nation theory by the back door?”
This is starting to be a good question. I mean I call the Scots the Scots, the Welsh the Welsh, the Americans the Americans. Each and every one of those groups I name by their nation. I don’t name the Scots the Scot Nationalists and British Unionists. I don’t refer to Americans as Republicans or Democrats.
Why is it we refer to Unionists by their political ideology and not by their name as a nation? Ulsterman invites genuine arguments because I see Ulsterman as being my regional identity in an all-Ireland context. Ulster-Scots?
British-Irish? Anglo-Irish?
Case in point, Nationalist for me is a cumbersome word, loaded with ambiguities and defining me by my politics and not my Nationality. In my head I reject it. I am not Nationalist, it does not define me. I am Irish, and I am so very proud to be Irish, and THAT does define me.
I want a United Ireland, make no mistake about it. Without predicting the final goal, if Northern Ireland is going to have had any point in it’s sad and unstable existence, it is going to be reconciling you to the Irish Nation and to bury the hatred of centuries within it.
One day you won’t fear us. One day you won’t hate us, or what we stand for or our flag or our language and everything associated with it. You won’t fear our faith and you won’t fear for yourselves. This is the work of decades if not centuries.
We WILL learn to live together here, and if the short term consequence of this goal is that we have to fight to ensure our culture has a place at the risk of alienating people further for a time, then so be it. Only we have that space, and you can see us, will you see that co-existence is possible whether it be in the United Kingdom or a United Ireland.
Is the Ulster Press Centre a thing or just a slightly pompous interspazz name for another loyalist man-baby?
Ruarai
“However, while dealing with the existence of two (or more) ‘traditions’ on the island is one thing, I would strongly caution against embrace of the bogus “two nations” theory to justify anything.”
Ruari I wish you were right, but Scotland is not the north of Ireland. It has a substantially more mature political scene after all.
At what point do we ponder unpalatable truths. What if the two nation theory is true in some measure?
But what I am trying to get PUL commentators to answer are two questions I believe important.
What does Irishness mean to you, and how do you relate to what the majority of people on this island consider Irish culture? Where do you see yourself against all that?
Obelisk – I’ll make a first stab at answering your questions:
a. What does Irishness mean to you, and how do you relate to what the majority of people on this island consider Irish culture?
To me it means Gaelic, Roman Catholic, Republican, ant-British, pro-European. Its exponents have meant that my entire life has been marred by the troubles (born 1968).
I relate to Irish culture in the same way as I relate to any other culture that is not mine – fair enough for those who embrace it, but something that I will not have forced on me as my own.
b. Where do you see yourself against all that?
Increasingly as a stranger in my own land. Everything that I have listed above as comprising Irish culture is the polar opposite of me. I am not part of the Irish nation, never will be, and have no desire to be.
Ah the old ‘fly the ROI flag in NI line’….
Despite the carefully worded posts attempting to put the case that the ROI flag should be flown, the fact is that it is the flag of another country. It is called the Republic of Ireland, or ‘Ireland’ as it is sometimes confusingly called. Country A will not, should not, and probably cannot fly country B’s flag in an official way on government buildings and so on. The exceptions might be some sort of a state visit or multi EU state event that recognizes some of the EU member states. Everyone knows this. The UK could not be expected to fly the ROI flag no more than the ROI could be expected to fly the Union flag from its councils to represent the many British citizens living there. It’s a silly idea and suggests to me a lack of awareness of the wider world outside of the crazy tribal areas in NI.
Another fact is that only 21% of NI population (if I remember the census correctly) hold ROI citizenship by way of an Irish passport.60% hold UK passport I think. Then there are the various opinion polls that score peoples identity / interest in the ROI as a similarly small figure. So there really is no real reason by way of numbers of people to suggest there is a need to represent ROI Irish citizenship in NI anyway.
Soooo, what is there a need for? I believe there is a need to represent the ‘all Ireland Irish identity’ in NI. I believe this because a great many people in NI identify with all Ireland society in some ways and circumstances. Mostly through sports such as GAA and the Irish rugby team. Yes all Ireland identities are present in both religious groupings.. Identities are usually represented using flags or emblems and so on. I have said previously, the 9 county Ulster flag is the perfect flag to represent the all Ireland identity. It is one of the 4 old provinces that make up the Island of Ireland and it is already used and identified with by those who have a strong all Ireland identity (among other identities). It is not a national flag and so can be flown in another country without causing an international incident.
I wouldn’t have problem with the 9 county flag flying alongside the Union flag on council buildings and Stormont.
Its about time people in NI got together and worked out a solution in the middle, or are they too scared that something might actually happen that keeps everyone happy?
Now about that new NI flag………………..
I’ve been observing UPC comments for a while. There is only one conclusion. UPC has to be a plant. The only question to my mind is wether it’s mishcevous Shinners or mad dissers. Either way there is no way he or she is a genuine unionist or loyalist. They have far more intelligence.
@BluesJazz
From what I’ve seen, St Patricks day seems to be sponsored by Guinness.
In fact it’s the ‘brand’ many people seem to associate with ‘Irish’ along with leprechauns and wolfhounds.
Oh and Terry Wogan.
—————————
You know I would rather have that as the international perception of being an Irish person to the generally held views of the “the British” in the world.
They are despised in many quarters. Often because of their past, sometimes for their present.
An Irish person can generally walk around the world without the historical “baggage” caused by British imperialism past and present. It has been enough to save the life of english speakers on some occassions to produce an Irish passport.
Did the 7/7 attacks on London take place before or after the British government started using the middle east [Iraq/Afghanistan] for target practice?
@Chris
Mick is correct there is no legal way to fly a flag at this stage because no legal cases have been taken about it in terms of council flags, so there is nothing to stop your party SF from flying both the tricolour and the Union flag – if we are to believe you that SF wants both or none.
Go ahead and fly the tricolour and the union flag, you have the ability to use democracy to get your way inside nationalist councils so why not try it, use your ‘democratic’ majority seeing as you have lectured people here all about having to accept it (unless deep down you know that sometimes raw majority vote democracy just doesn’t cut it but you can’t accept admitting that)?
Re Unionist hostility, unionists would be as hostile over complete removal of the union flag as they would about both flags flying and nationalist-run councils have already acted alone and against the wishes of Unionists in terms of eliminating the union flag. So this can be done without engaging Unionists and why bother engaging them any way other than to try and extract concessions which don’t need to be extracted because you can fly both flags using democracy, so please don’t go and create a bitter, sham, sectarian fight over this.
Go ahead and fly both flags like you want to do and let’s see what will come of that, but don’t wind up Unionists in the process in creating a long drawn out process to getting where you want to go re the tricolour whenever you can do that We Ourselves-style.
And please don’t use ‘we wont take unilateral’ i.e. pan-nationalist action because your party and the SDLP attempted to take the flag down altogether at City Hall if it were not for Alliance getting designated days… well for this council term only.
“To me it means Gaelic, Roman Catholic, Republican, ant-British, pro-European. Its exponents have meant that my entire life has been marred by the troubles (born 1968).”
Blue Hammer just change the first couple of words to English, Protestant, Anti Irish and pro colonialist and you will find we have all experienced troubles. from murder, slavery, starvation or just plain old posse justice for a majority of Irish people since the day the British first set foot in Ireland.
Too long has passed since then and settler or not all children born in Ireland are Irish to me and what has taken place in the past is remembered only as a reference in history. I am a republican who believes we all all born equal and we are all entitled if we are competent and supported by the majority, to hold the highest office of the land, ensuring our survival and that all our best interests are being acted upon in an impartial manner.
In terms of Jonny no-bodies, the majority of Irish people, Scotish people, Welsh people and English people are like me, they dont agree with the idea of privileged birth or of the idea we are subjects rather than citizens. I really dont care who runs the day to day running of the country, I dont care what religion they are, I dont even care what colour the flag I would be seeing hung from government buildings would be, but I believe its morally right to encourage republicanism, to pursue the dream of a society of equals, where the government is of the people and for the whole of the people, not just the chosen few. Being British to me means living as a slave under a dynasty,
What I’ve learned from the flag protests:
Chris’s post touches on a subject I have wondered about for a long time. I was never too bothered about the tattered flags on lamposts. Bottom line is that when my flag is shown equal respect I will show respect straight back.
Bottom line is that when my flag is shown equal respect I will show respect straight back.
Well in all councils that are nationalist-run go ahead and put both flags up there is absolutely nothing stopping political nationalists, absolutely nothing!!!
DC,
Fair enough, I’m on for that
Well then stop complaining about it being Unionists fault in that they are blocking this from happening which they aren’t.
All SF want to do is imperil and embarrass Unionism by trying to bind them into this dual flags policy which is absolutely unnecessary as i am completely serious, there is absolutely nothing whatsoever from stopping nationalist-run councils from flying both flags at this stage.
Let’s face SF just haven’t the balls and are trying needlessly to bind Unionism into this decision because they haven’t the guts to take it alone or together with the SDLP in case there is an outcry and legal challenge which puts SF in its place (again!) – use that council ‘democracy’ and ‘democratic’ process and go ahead and do it to get your flag up.
Ball in Nationalist councils court then. Both flags.
I was born in Ireland, I live in Ireland and I will be buried in Ireland. That should be enough.
But my Irishness is more than that. Moss turf on my grandmother’s fire. Jigs and reels in the back corner of a country pub. Martin McDonagh. Brian Friel. Sean O’Casey. Hugh Leonard. The biting wind coming in off the Atlantic in July. Lansdowne Road on a Sunday afternoon.
I will probably never learn to speak Irish. I’ve tried and failed. I still love to see it on signs, so long as it’s not being used as a tribal marker (which too often it is). I think republicanism is a fine idea on paper, but the “republicanism” practised in Ireland is a travesty. The Easter Rising was a tragic, undemocratic mistake, and it’s subsequent glorification a fine example of post-hoc justification. I understand why, but I don’t agree. Too late now. The tricolour leaves me unmoved. It’s not mine.
If we want to build a shared future, that means first building a shared identity – not one in conflict with existing identities but one that enhances them. If that means the majority giving up a few of their ingrained assumptions in order to accommodate a significant minority then that’s the price that has to be paid. Otherwise nothing will change.
“there is absolutely nothing whatsoever from stopping nationalist-run councils from flying both flags at this stage.”
Not strictly true. You yourself have given the probable reason it hasn’t been tried.
“in case there is an outcry and legal challenge which puts SF in its place (again!)”
Take the risk, someone puts a legal challenge in, bam, codified in law the tricolor absolutely will not fly.
Seems Sinn Fein and the SDLP are thinking ahead on this one and playing the long game. Strategy is a foreign concept to Peter I know.
Sorry DC, looks like if you want to make progress on the flag issue you still need to do in tandem with us.
Ah Obelisk, I was just reeling DC in…………
@Obelisk
I have before given a possible legal recourse as a reason, it is only possible and as a result of future action, there is nothing stopping SF at this time. Nothing.
My point is that SF know they could lose this on legal ground, but it is only a ‘could’; however, if they did lose this it would fire a bullet through its both flags policy and therefore put neutrality into the spotlight.
If I were a unionist politician, I would say designated days as bare min across NI – plus nationalist-run councils can use all peaceful political means at their disposal in trying to get a tricolour up alongside the union flag.
But don’t go grounding the union flag just because SF hasn’t the balls to do something that can at this date be done legally, politically and ultimately democratically!
@bangordub
You haven’t reeled me in, I am serious.
That’s what i have come to learn out of this flag dispute is that there remains no legal way to fly a flag council-level style. None. The political ground is clear for SF and the SDLP, so please stop blaming Unionists just because you haven’t the balls to pull it off. Thanks.
tacapall
The question asked what “Irishness” means to me and how I relate to Irish culture. My answer is specific to me.
Your view is different. I respect your right to that view. But you have to understand that you telling me that in your opinion “all children born in Ireland are Irish to me”, is a view that I find offensive. Irish is the one thing I am most certainly not.
Similarly, your comment that “being British to me means living as a slave under a dynasty” is not my experience of my Britishness.
Never the twain shall meet.
Sorry DC, looks like if you want to make progress on the flag issue you still need to do in tandem with us.
In terms of a legal challenge if you want ‘tandem’ because you think it could prevent any challenge from coming forward i don’t think that matters, as the law will look at the case on its merits and also it won’t matter about it being done in tandem as it’s majority vote in councils so it’s not necessary.
But if you want tandem just to call Unionists into a room, watch them squirm over the tricolour in order to get the union flag up just for the sake of it whenever you can use democracy without having to do this then you’re seriously f**king pathetic.
DC,
I was joking, no offence intended. What I am curious about is why unionists, who have enjoyed years upon years of their flag flying from every corner suddenly have a problem with their fellow countrymen flying their flag? The Belfast CH protests have awakened a realisation that “our” flag is as legitimate as “yours”. Indeed more so if democratic norms are applied. A bit like the road blockages are in essence, a nihilistic argument
Well then fly it – the tricolour – and let the law via a legal challenge (if it comes) test the legality, but please don’t ground the union flag as well whenever there is nothing preventing it from flying. So if you want both flags, fly both. End of.
Bangordub
The RoI flag is simply not as legitimate as the UK flag in the UK. Many “Irish” Belfast folk may have an allegiance to the RoI flag, but it is not the flag of the state in which they live.
I understand there are nearly as many “Irish” living in Liverpool as in Belfast. I’m guessing that only the Union Flag flies on official buildings there. Damned sectarian scousers.
“Take the risk, someone puts a legal challenge in, bam, codified in law the tricolor absolutely will not fly. ”
“Sorry DC, looks like if you want to make progress on the flag issue you still need to do in tandem with us.”
So Obelisk, what is your idea to make progress together?
No offense intended Blue Hammer, I meant children born of Ireland are all equal, like someone born in Scotland would be defined by country as Scottish. I respect your wish to remain a subject under the rule of a monarchy and governed by a majority of people who are not of Ireland, could you see a Union without the monarchy, what if Ireland rejoined the union in that scenario, would you see it as an insult to be classed as Irish then.
Blue Hammer,
Unfortunately a nationalist viewpoint would be that the establishment of this part of the UK was in itself undemocratic and illegitemate. They are also sick to the back teeth of having the fact shoved down their throat at every opportunity along with the regalia that is used to reinforce the fact.
Hence the point of flying another flag
@ Andrew Gallagher,
‘It’s easy not to be in doubt when you’re in the majority’
Precisely – however I’ve always been a ‘minority ‘ in terms of my particular political and non religious beliefs and I assure you it doesn’t bother me in the least .. The issue in NI is in 2013 which is the minority and which is the majority and given the actual demographics of the NI State it’s clear that it’s no longer 1920 or even 1969 in that regard . While I respect the union jack as the official flag of NI I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by ignoring the tricolour or pretending it’s a ‘foreign ‘ flag . That kind of attitude only sparks a counter attitude which someday may see the ‘union flag ‘ as a foreign flag given the rapidly changing demographics in NI .And for those flaggists who maintain that a UI is not on the cards anytime soon -thus the Irish Tricolour can be safely ignored are just continuing the old Unionist game of ‘ostrich ‘
‘We seem to have moved from a position where instead of forcing an identity on others ‘
Would’nt dream of it -no point anyway -history should at least tell us that much . For a half century or more political unionism tried to ignore or wish away the other third of the NI population (now half the population in 2013 and by some accounts a majority in both main cities in NI and over most of the rural counties across the Bann.
‘we exclude them from that identity altogether. I don’t call that progress.’
You and others may exclude but don’t count me in the ‘excluder ‘ community .The people of NI had enough of that ‘exclusion ‘politics for long enough and look at what it delivered ? Not that should have been a surprise to anyone with any political nous .
‘Nationhood is an act of collective faith, and just like other acts of faith such as money, banks, democracy or justice it demonstrably does stop existing if one stops believing in it.’
I’m Irish -no apologies given -none taken . I take my ‘nationalism ‘ with the usual grain of salt -knowing full well there is both a positive and negative side to this human condition from which no people on the planet have yet escaped -including those much more diverse large multi cultural and ethnically diverse states .
I suppose like many I like flag waving to be confined to sports games and periodic national holidays etc . But poncing around the streets for weeks at a time -such as the current Loyalist flag waver crowd -strikes me as being behaviour that can only be referred to as ‘neurotic ‘ or perhaps even retarded . Far from being a sign of cultural or political strength it’s just the opposite .
@ Ruarai ,
‘It’s patently absurd that no Irish tricolour flies from Ireland’s second city on Saint Patrick’s Day, despite flying from building after building in many other cities across the world.’
Not absurd -peculiar /weird /eerie -kafkaesque . Not funny as in funny ha ha -more like funny peculiar /odd . Like a Zoo without animals or an asylum without residents .
They can fly it alongside for the day thats in it .What harm can it possibly do ? Send a few hundred more loyalists into another flag waving frenzy ? So what -Sooner or later that particular bridge will have to be crossed anyway .
Obelisk: By extension of his logic, if there is no Irish nation, what does that mean for those of who claim to be part of the Irish Nation that covers the majority of the inhabitants of the island.
As I see it, an “Irish Nation” that only includes 85% of Irish people in Ireland is incomplete. An alternative “Irish Nation” that includes 100% of Irish people in Ireland has to be very fuzzy indeed round the edges.
So when you say you believe in, and identify with, “An Irish Nation”, the more thoughtful listeners will be trying to work out which one. The Tricolour is a clue – if you see it as the symbol of the Irish Nation then you’re an 85 percenter. And ironically, Saint Patrick, the Roman-Briton who brought the pre-reformation Roman Church to Ireland to displace the Gaelic Church, is adopted by the flag waving chuckies.
But I’m not sure anyone here is saying you can’t have an Irish Nation. Just that you aren’t the Irish Nation.
I have been a two-nationer in the past. I think these days I’m more of a fuzzy-nationer.
And who would NOT at least go-along-with (if not actively support or whole-heartedly embrace) a new flag for the enduring – and now almost 100-year old entity – that is Northern Ireland itself?
I’d be hopefully – maybe naively, I’d hope not – that Northern Nationalist recognition of the reality and validity, if not preference, of Northern Ireland would be reciprocated by generosity of some / many Unionists towards the Irish Tricolour.
That said, in recognising Nationalists’ allegiance to that flag, in an agreed (all) Ireland, which Nationalists generally espouse, that flag could hardly be a realistic option for the flag of a new, (re)united island.
So, affording some sort of official or semi-official status to the Tricolour within an NI that is part of the UK, would be somewhat ironic given that said flag would be unlikely to exist as the / a flag of the entity that said Nationalists want!
Nice picture here
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19180176
Has no-one actually got an answer for DC? Why don’t any nationalist councils fly both and show us how it’s done?
“In terms of a legal challenge if you want ‘tandem’ because you think it could prevent any challenge from coming forward i don’t think that matters, as the law will look at the case on its merits and also it won’t matter about it being done in tandem as it’s majority vote in councils so it’s not necessary.
But if you want tandem just to call Unionists into a room, watch them squirm over the tricolour in order to get the union flag up just for the sake of it whenever you can use democracy without having to do this then you’re seriously f**king pathetic.”
Well on the bright side you’ve finally redirected your anger away from the Alliance party, who let’s be perfectly frank have kept the Union Flag flying over Belfast City Hall for eighteen days more than I would have, towards the people you really should be angry at. The SDLP and Sinn Fein.
You are getting angry though because those parties refuse to commit a strategic blunder? You’re angry because they are not being stupid enough to give into their emotions and make a complete and unnecessary mess? Why should they make such an error? Play the long game, reap greater rewards.
Here’s the truth. The root of this issue isn’t the erosion of British culture. That is simply a consequence of the path chosen by political Unionism.
The root of this issue has been the complete denial of there being a separate culture in the North to even interact with. One of the first posts in this thread was the “only 17% of people want a United Ireland”.
What does that matter! 45% are of a culture separate from political Unionism and right now the parties they elect would like the state to acknowledge that that separate culture exists.
I keep saying this, the Agreement preserved the Union but not the Union you grew up with. You saved the constitutional link. You should celebrate that.
If Unionists are right, and we will never have a United Ireland then every effort expended to reshape the public space in the North so that some sort of equilibrium is achieved regardless of Unionist alienation because we are going to be stuck together for a very long time.
If Unionists are wrong and a United Ireland one day is destined to arrive then we should still do this regardless of Unionist alienation because one way or another the PUL community has to learn to live not just with token representations of our culture but a whole panoply of everything we can think of. From Flags to Language Rights to Street Names to a statue of John Redmond up beside Carson on the hill.
Does that sound like an angry man? Yes it does, because anger leads to people making very bad decisions. Forcing all through would poison the place for generations, yet we are unable to just let the place alone, it has to change DC.
And THAT is why this would be much better in tandem DC. Not to humiliate Unionists but because otherwise not only is this going to turn into a battle a day, but its a battle you can only ever lose if every little loss is the end of the world as you know it. And it’s a battle you can never win, not now, not with the demographics the way they are.
Forkhandles
“So Obelisk, what is your idea to make progress together?”
On the flag issue Forkhandles you’re about the sanest voice there is. Your Nine County Flag suggestion was note perfect. If I had to devise a compromise it would be as below.
The 9 county flag and the Ulster Banner given legal recognition in law and both to be flown from all civic buildings 365 days a year.
The Union Flag flown from all civic buildings on the main flag pole, even ones in Nationalist Councils, on an agreed list of designated days. Putting it above all the others when it does fly would be in recognition of the reality of sovereignty.
Previously I have spoken of how the flag is too much, how it was too difficult.
I was wrong. The Union Flag has a place here. It must have a place here. To continually oppose it flying suits only myself, and makes me a hypocrite. I ask that it is understood I bear no animus to the Union Flag, but my anger at it was borne from the anger I feel at the disrespect shown my flag and culture.
I hope to do better.
I don’t want it 365 days a year, that I think is too much, but designated days is part of a good compromise. I believe the final stage of the compromise is to honor the Tricolour the right way.
I believe the right way would be for the Irish Tricolour flown from a lower flagpole, co-eval with the 9 country flag, the Ulster Banner, and maybe the council flags, on a similar list of designated days such as St.Patrick’s Day.
Not in a gesture of sovereignty, but as a gesture of mutual respect, an acknowledgement that we are here.
Surely the tricolour flown not as a pretend sovereign flag, but in recognition of the very real Irish Dimension the north has is in order.
Furthermore, we all recongize that symbols are not and need not be negative.
An Irish and Ulster Scots Language Act.
The ability for streets to petition to have themselves renamed if enough local support can be gathered and proved, with the new name being vetted by the equality commission.
As road signage is replaced, multi-lingual signs in English Irish and Ulster Scots.
A review of the names of main roads, with some being renamed to achieve a better balance.
Preferably an end to the tradition of burning my flag on the eleventh night bonfire. Reciprocally, Nationalist youths encouraged not to desecrate the Union Jack.
And a statue of John Redmond next to Carson. If any Irish Nationalist leader deserves more recognition, I believe it to be him, despite all his flaws.
Reader
“Obelisk: By extension of his logic, if there is no Irish nation, what does that mean for those of who claim to be part of the Irish Nation that covers the majority of the inhabitants of the island.
As I see it, an “Irish Nation” that only includes 85% of Irish people in Ireland is incomplete. An alternative “Irish Nation” that includes 100% of Irish people in Ireland has to be very fuzzy indeed round the edges.
So when you say you believe in, and identify with, “An Irish Nation”, the more thoughtful listeners will be trying to work out which one. The Tricolour is a clue – if you see it as the symbol of the Irish Nation then you’re an 85 percenter. And ironically, Saint Patrick, the Roman-Briton who brought the pre-reformation Roman Church to Ireland to displace the Gaelic Church, is adopted by the flag waving chuckies.
But I’m not sure anyone here is saying you can’t have an Irish Nation. Just that you aren’t the Irish Nation.
I have been a two-nationer in the past. I think these days I’m more of a fuzzy-nationer.”
The chuckies jibe aside, I find your explanation lucid and enlightening. In recent weeks I have had difficulty reconciling people who would call themselves Irish but who reject a lot of what I believe it means to be Irish. Not just I…but a lot. Sort of like if a man stood up and said he was American, he just didn’t want any part of the Constitution or the heritage or the fourth of July and didn’t hold with the whole Founding Father malarkey.
But will the fuzzy nationers not always be at the mercy of the 85%? The 85% will be the ones who define the face of the Nation to the outside world after all. But I guess it is enough for each individual concerned. I thank you for your contribution, it has helped my personal reflection on this matter.
I have to push-back on the unionist statements that the tricolour is an ROI flag, as it was the flag of the majority of Irish-people long before partition; and thus could not be a foreign flag for northern nationalists.
However, it is a flag influenced by French republicans devised by Irish nationalists and not pro-British unionists, and thus despite the intent of peace between orange and green etc I can understand unionists’ feeling that it is a foreign flag to them.
Irish nationalists of course were not asked and had no input into the creation of the union flag after the undemocratic (catholic under-represented and anyway bribed Irish house of parliment vote) on a union of Ireland with Britain. The flag and all the Dublin castle British/unionist made-up St.Patrick flag element of the union jack is a foreign flag to Irish nationalists.
So was parity of esteem and appreciation of Irish citizenship aswell as British agree or not? Surely we have to accept each other’s flags and not tell one section that they should ‘like’ the others flag.