Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

First Minister issues warning over alleged political connection to punishment shooting…

Thu 14 February 2013, 10:06am

There’s little to say about this just yet other than to note that the return of punishment shootings in Belfast is hardly a sign of health in the so called peace process. A returning to old ways?

The fact that the PSNI are questioning Sean Kelly, the man convicted of the Shankill bomb (and released on licence), will not do much for public confidence either. Indeed, it has already prompted the First Minister to issue the following statement:

“The family of the man who has been shot has indicated the involvement of those associated with Sinn Fein in this attack. This connection raises potentially grave consequences for the process and we will want to meet with the Chief Constable to establish the background of this case and how the police are able to conclude that it is not paramilitary linked. We will be monitoring very closely the facts of this case as they arise and the Sinn Fein response to them.”

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Comments (105)

  1. Pete Baker (profile) says:

    From the most recent BBC report on the shooting of the 18-year-old in both legs in Ardoyne, which Kelly is being questioned about.

    The shooting was originally reported to be a paramilitary-style attack.

    However, a police spokesman said that following inquiries, it is no longer being treated as such, but is being treated as a shooting.

    When is a paramilitary-style shooting not a paramilitary-style shooting?

    And is Peter Hain available for comment?

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  2. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    I think Peter Robinson will say ANYTHING and do ANYTHING and I mean ANYTHING to distract attention away from the fiasco he built in East Belfast over the no-issue “flegs”.

    Thos people the BBC polled and those on the roads [and certainly their adhoc representatives] didn’t have a good word to say about the DUP and Mr. Robinson.

    Smoke and mirrors DUP style.

    Peter has the cheek to use the phrase “grave consequences” when he own direct political machinations very nearly delivered deaths on the streets.

    A single punishment shooting does not an armed insurrection make. However the destabilisation of the process is undoubted and the crumbs lead to Peters door.

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  3. Ulick (profile) says:

    Is it only republicans who have their names released to the press before being charged?

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  4. Nevin (profile) says:

    “the return of punishment shootings in Belfast”

    From PSNI Crime Statistics [pdf file]

    During 2011/12 there were 33 paramilitary style shootings and 46 paramilitary style assaults (Table 1). This compares with 33 paramilitary style shootings and 50 assaults recorded the previous year and is substantially lower than the levels recorded 10 years ago in 2002/03 (165 paramilitary shootings and 144 paramilitary style assaults). ..

    The vast majority of paramilitary style shootings carried out in recent years have been attributed to Republican groups whereas before that, between 2002/03 and 2005/06 the majority were then attributed to Loyalist groups (Figure 3).

    Perhaps we’re just seeing the return of the reporting of such shootings.

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  5. keano10 (profile) says:

    Trial by Slugger…??

    Only one possible verdict from this jury I’m afraid…

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  6. Dec (profile) says:

    Ulick, twas ever so.

    I’m interested in the fact that Peter Robinson appears to be acting as a spokesperson for the victim’s family, which the author and contributor above appear to have glossed over.

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  7. tacapall (profile) says:

    We’ll say nothing then about Bob Stokers reference last week to a loyalist convicted of throwing a coffee jar packed with nails through the window of a nationalist family home on Broadway, a house that has been attacked 48 times in the last few years, attacks that are usually the starting point of all the riots at the Broadway interface. The double standards from the DUP is beyond a joke, at least Gareth Edwards Marcus was found guilty in a court of law, Sean Kelly is mearly being questioned, maybe he will be another Martin Corey or Mariam Price and the SOS will step in to use her amazing powers of secret evidence to intern him.

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  8. ArdoyneUnionist (profile) says:

    This is not the first time Kelly has come to the attention of the PSNI, the secretary of state revoked his licence for the murder of 9 innocent Protestants, when he was working as an alleged shinner community worker at in north Belfast. He was cited by the PSNI as being involved in or orchestrating rioting at parades. He was later released because of shinner pressure only now to be questioned for the latest punishment shooting in the republican part of Ardoyne!!!

    Can someone help me and my old memory, did Sean Kelly or any shinner, thank the good brave people of the Shankill road for saving Kelly’s life??? When his bomb blew in his face killing 9 innocent Protestants!!!

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  9. carl marks (profile) says:

    Indeed a handy distraction for peter, he has more to say about this than about the flag protests,
    Can anybody remember his statement warning elected unionist politicians of their links with loyalists and their attendance at illegal protests?
    Of course any shooting must be condemned and any political party’s linkage with violence must stop, but the police say no paramilitary involvement and Pete isn’t happy, strange that he grasped any straw (members of the UVF not the organisation behind the street violence) was enough for him to ignore his party members involvement,
    Pete’s desperation to get his ratings up is palpable and we all know the old way to do that is to bring out the SF bogeyman.

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  10. carl marks (profile) says:

    ArdoyneUnionist
    The civilised world normally waits until somebody is found guilty in court, However those rules only seem to apply to unionists here on slugger,

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  11. michael-mcivor (profile) black spot says:

    ArdoyneUnionist-

    ” thank the good brave people of the shankill road for saving Kellys life “-

    Were those brave fire-fighters and Ambulance crews who saved his life from the shankill road then-

    Wonder who was the person who rented / allowed the UDA HQ office to be above that shop during the conflict-

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  12. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Lads, lads, look about you… Where’s the jury? You guys are.

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  13. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Tac, Bobs UU, or he was last time I looked. Or is that all unionists just look the same to u?

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  14. tacapall (profile) says:

    What difference does that make Mick, what difference is there between the DUP and UUP nowdays. Is there some sort of difference between loyalist using violence and republicans, a house has been attacked 48 times in the last few years with just one person being charged and we’ve never heard so much of a peep about it other than myself highlighting it. When are Unionist politicians going to stand up to the plate and condemn rather than give excuse to loyalist paramilitaries, the double standards is breathtaking.

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  15. streetlegal (profile) says:

    Peter Robinson has been waiting for an opportunity to pull the plug on the Stormont Executive. In this he has the support of his DUP hardliners, Mike Nesbitt and the leadership of the Orange Order. This is the beginning of the end game…

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  16. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Well, things ain’t like they used to be. Martin condemned the shooting. Those who wish to connect Sinn Fein to this shooting have a lot of heavy lifting to do if they want to make it stick even in the public fora, let alone the courts.

    Bad form on the part of Peter. He looks like he’s reaching for a reason not to talk about #flegs.

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  17. BarneyT (profile) says:

    Is the end of Stormont, in its current form a bad thing?

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  18. ArdoyneUnionist (profile) says:

    Firstly I have not found Kelly guilty of anything other than the atrocity that he carried out on the Shankill and the citing by the police for his involvement in rioting which he got his licence revoked.

    michael-mcivor
    If you look at all the photos of that infamous day on the Shankill you will see that the good people of the Shankill digging were digging out the survivor’s and the bodies of the victims. So the good people of the Shankill dug out two IRA personnel one a survivor and the other a body. Not knowing if there were secondary IRA bombs!!!

    What you are saying Michael is that the innocent Shankill victims are now to blame for the IRA going onto the Shankill to plant the bomb. There’s me thinking this was the IRA’s fault for planting a bomb on a busy shopping high street.

    Could this be an example of republican revisionism and history rewriting, to blame the innocent victims of the IRA Shankill bombing because the UDA rented an office on the Shankill.

    “Jesus wept”!!!

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  19. Are Sinn Fein going to be dragged over the coals every time someone gets shot in the knees in Belfast or other places?

    I don’t believe they can make their stance any more clear. They don’t support those types of violent reactions or actions, they condemn them etc

    What more does the Punt want or is this just a chance to deflect away from the disaster in his own back garden.

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  20. Nevin (profile) says:

    “I don’t believe they can make their stance any more clear.”

    Chris, did Martin’s statement of condemnation come before or after the initial reference to paramilitary-style shooting?

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  21. carl marks (profile) says:

    Kevsterino (profile)
    14 February 2013 at 12:31 pm

    “Well, things ain’t like they used to be. Martin condemned the shooting. Those who wish to connect Sinn Fein to this shooting have a lot of heavy lifting to do if they want to make it stick even in the public fora, let alone the courts.”

    You are of course assuming that proof is actually needed,
    The whole: eyes wide closed; thing going on about the flegs nonsense, is typical.
    On another thread about the amount of young protestants going to jail or ending up with criminal records failed to get one unionist to engage on the subject (although one poster expressed wide eyed surprise at Catholics taken offence at being called fenians) also the ability among unionist politicians to ignore the drug dealing and other criminal activities of the loyalists and the harm it is doing their own community is breathtaking.
    Now before anybody gets me wrong I hold in contempt anybody who uses violence to get their way, any political party who supports violence or ignores it because it comes from their side.
    But I will start to take unionists seriously when I hear the same condemnation of loyalist violence and lawbreaking from them as they come out with nationalists break the law or commit acts of violence.
    However I won’t hold my breath.

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  22. carl marks (profile) says:

    Nevin (profile)
    14 February 2013 at 12:54 pm

    “I don’t believe they can make their stance any more clear.”

    Chris, did Martin’s statement of condemnation come before or after the initial reference to paramilitary-style shooting?

    It certainly came out before Pete’s condemnation of the nail bomb attack on the family on Broadway. I believe we are still waiting for that.

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  23. Nevin (profile) says:

    “I hold in contempt anybody who uses violence to get their way”

    Carl, those who condemn it now but who used, directed or endorsed it previously fall into the category of hypocrites. They’re unlikely to be taken seriously by those who currently follow in the footsteps of their predecessors.

    The ‘reaching out’ nonsense from the DUP and SF might (still) fool some of the people some of the time.

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  24. Nevin

    Are you seriously trying to suggest it is only pertinent if released before it becomes news?

    Do you expect Martin and Sinn Fein to spend their days combing the news sites in order to release statements about everything them condemn?

    You are now moving into the farcical realms of whataboutery

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  25. Nevin (profile) says:

    “I believe we are still waiting for that.”

    Carl, if it hasn’t come, it’s most unlikely to come now. Those who live at the interfaces have a very rough time and, sadly, their prospects are unlikely to improve any time soon.

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  26. Nevin (profile) says:

    “Do you expect Martin and Sinn Fein to spend their days combing the news sites”

    I don’t, Chris, but I’d imagine that the SoS, FM and DFM have been privy to the various aspects of this paramilitary-style shooting from a range of sources; it’s unlikely they have to await news accounts.

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  27. carl marks (profile) says:

    Nevin
    Therein lies my point, Pete can get all red faced and flustered about republican violence and ignore Loyalist violence,
    Martin has condemned the knee capping in Ardoyne, we await Pete’s Masserene (or Broadway) moment.

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  28. 6crealist (profile) says:

    This is not the end of Stormont.

    Turkeys don’t vote for Christmas. And after six years, the lure of ministerial cars and a semblance of power will always prove too much. The Provos would have to bomb Canary Wharf for £5 Peter and the lads to even think twice.

    This is all a nice distraction for Peter, but it’s nothing more.

    As for the PSNI: is there a more spineless, politicised police force in western Europe? I doubt it.

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  29. So Nevin

    What would convince you or are you just putting up straw men beause you can never be convinced?

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  30. Nevin (profile) says:

    Carl, I see no merit in hypocrisy – and the Peter and Martin Show IMO is vitually all show and very very little substance.

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  31. Nevin (profile) says:

    Chris, I’d prefer a respectful silence from the hypocrites to condemnation.

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  32. carl marks (profile) says:

    Nevin
    So if martin had not condemned the shooting you would have been ok with that. Then why did you enquire about the timing earlier if it all hypocrisy. Forgave me if I put you in the same category as Pete.

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  33. Nevin

    As I thought

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  34. Nevin (profile) says:

    “why did you enquire about the timing earlier”

    Carl, I’m familiar with stories being changed.

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  35. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    I think the near immediate spiral into whataboutery is the culmination of three things.

    1. Someone was shot, but with the express intent of not killing them. A punishment. Whilst it is deeply regrettable that this happened the effects upon the world, Europe, the UK, Ireland, Belfast, the district this man was from, even the street where this gentleman resides will be next to nothing. Being harsh, on the grand scale of things nothing happened.

    2. Peter Robo for purely selfish reasons ["How dare you!", I hear you say. Peter would never destroy our peaceful lives here for selfish reasons!] has seen this an an opportunity to attack his opposers. He can without evidence lay the blame at their door and get “a response” from those he knows will react. They will react because they are predisposed to doing so. In doing so Peter distracts from his and the DUPs pitiful performance over the last 4 months. An attempt to distract all from the East Belfast flegs debacle.

    3. It has irked some of the posters that the formulaic “oh we have something to attack Sinn Fein with” slugger blog reaction that Peter has banked on has worked yet again.

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  36. tacapall (profile) says:

    Who’s just talking about the DUP Nevin, when it comes to loyalist violence all Unionist parties act similar, whether it be rioting, murder or drug dealing, they give excuse rather than condemn. Sean Kelly is entitled to the due process of the law, if he is charged and found guilty then he deserves everything he gets, until then he’s innocent. Peter Robinson being the MLA for east Belfast surely has his nose to the ground and knows just like the PSNI who in the UVF were directing the recent flag violence. Has he called for them to be taken off the streets, has he called on the PUP to be sanctioned or to explain their position.

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  37. Paulk (profile) says:

    I agree MMG has come out condemned it within a day or so of it taking place but at least he has done so clearly. Robbo still can’t really bring himself to condemn anything that anyone on his own constituency does without a little qualification, or a few excuses thrown in. Incidentally how quick did Robbo get a statement out about this compared to the #flegs? Glad he sorted out those glitches in his media communications.
    Oh and as for the whole peace process being in jeopardy, if over a month of civil disobenience, rioting, threats, attacking homes, police officers and politicians doesn’t do it, i doubt a kneecapping in which Sean Kelly is just a suspect will.

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  38. between the bridges (profile) says:

    1. Regardless of what he has done is shooting a teenager the kind of justice people want?

    2.The kids mum said”People like that need locked up and put down. So much for the ceasefire. They are shooting their own people.”

    3. SF stem from their evil twin PIRA, so is anyone in the least bit surprised?

    4.Yes robo is indulging in sh it stirring and deflection, shocking behavior for a politician!! i assume after some inflection marty condemned it…

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  39. iluvni (profile) says:

    Another day, another affront to decency. Which primary school did the victim attend…wasn’t Holy Cross by any chance?

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  40. Nevin (profile) says:

    tacapall, I’d prefer to see good government but neither excuses nor hypocrisy will deliver that.

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  41. 6crealist (profile) says:

    iluvni

    unlikely, as Holy Cross is a girls’ primary school. Did you not notice that the bags full of urine, blast bomb and pornography were only being directed at 5-11 year old girls?

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  42. carl marks (profile) says:

    Nevin (profile)
    14 February 2013 at 1:37 pm

    “why did you enquire about the timing earlier”

    Carl, I’m familiar with stories being changed.

    again Nevin you deliberately avoid the point, but shut me up , condemn the Flag protest as the violent illegal actions that they are, and condemn Pete and other unionist politicians for not standing up against the loyalist terror groups (no ifs or buts please), then I will take you seriously
    that rather than your nit picking about Martins timing would make your declared dislike of hypocrisy more believable.

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  43. carl marks (profile) says:

    iluvni
    Yes Holy cross a proud moment for loyalism and unionism,
    I believe every nationalist poster here (i certainly have) has condemned the shooting in Ardoyne,
    Perhaps you could take the moral High ground and condemn the holy cross obscenity.

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  44. iluvni (profile) says:

    There goes that theory! Oops.

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  45. iluvni (profile) says:

    No problem condemning HC though. Appalling.

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  46. Anton von Padua Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Graf von Arco auf Valley (profile) says:

    Yes Holy cross a proud moment for loyalism and unionism

    And a victory for obstinate parents dragging their children through it.

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  47. Paulk (profile) says:

    Yes, parents bringing their children to school imagine that….

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  48. carl marks (profile) says:

    And a victory for obstinate parents dragging their children through it.

    Yes they had a very difficult decision,
    Give into the bigots and lose the greatest weapon in the nationalist armoury educated children,
    Or stand up to the bigots and if that meant that their children found out a bit earlier that there were a great Many hate filled monsters out there who wanted them dead, and teach the children that no matter what those beasts try they have the right to be educated and the right to go where they want.
    That’s how the people of Ardoyne looked at it and I am proud of them, and how you can compare the parents who stood up to the scum to the scum says a lot about you.

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  49. SK (profile) says:

    “And a victory for obstinate parents dragging their children through it.”

    ______

    Refusing to smuggle their children to school at the behest of unionist child abusers? The audacity.

    I remember that bearded muppet from Glenbryn had the same rhetorical justifications for breaking the law then as Jamie Bryson and pals do now, incidentally. Cut from the same cloth.

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  50. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    In case anyone tries to argue otherwise, religious fundamentalist serial killer Sean Kelly is still a senior member of Sinn Fein.

    He played a lead role in the party’s offensive, provocative, illegal protest outside a police station (in Protestant east Belfast) on 5th November 2012.

    Ironically that protest was to complain about charges against another senior IRA man in relation to another Sinn Fein attack against a Belfast catholic.

    The wheel goes round again…

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  51. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Dear me… And this relates to punishment shootings just how?

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  52. 6crealist (profile) says:

    Ulster [sic] Press Centre [sic]

    Unless you can present evidence to the contrary, Kelly is not a serial killer. A mass murderer, yes, but not a serial killer.

    As for the “religious fundamentalist” motif – nice propaganda, but it doesn’t wash.

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  53. 6crealist (profile) says:

    Moving on, has Robinson yet commented on his party colleague who, just a fortnight ago, admitted to making explosives with intent to endanger life – explosives that were then used in a racist attack?

    http://www.antrimguardian.co.uk/articles/news/31866/smyth-pleads-guilty-to-explosives-charge/

    Surely Smyth’s actions are every bit as dangerous to the political institutions than those that Kelly is alleged to have been involved in (until he’s released without charge tonight).

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  54. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    6crealist: Unless you can present evidence to the contrary, Kelly is not a serial killer. A mass murderer, yes, but not a serial killer.

    It’s amazing the lengths some people will go to defend one of the most evil, depraved, religiliously-motivated child-killers the world has ever seen.

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  55. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Mick, it looks like the thread concerning Peter Robinson’s deflection/diversion, somehow, got deflected/diverted. Anyhow, I hope the kid recovers quickly and completely. I condemn those who attacked him without caveat, proviso or condition.

    I wish the First Minister could find it in his big heart to do the same regarding those violent protesters he called out regarding the new rules for flying the flag.

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  56. 6crealist (profile) says:

    Ulster [sic] Press Centre [sic]

    why don’t you apply for an E.U. grant for a dictionary and thesaurus?

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  57. Anton von Padua Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Graf von Arco auf Valley (profile) says:

    new rules for flying the flag.

    Pity the other 10 or so nationalist-run councils didn’t follow such new rules.

    Isn’t it extraordinary that Londonderry/Derry has been awarded ‘City of Culture’ and that council can’t even bring itself to fly the union flag on designated days.

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  58. 6crealist (profile) says:

    Kelly has been released unconditionally. Is this contrived crisis over now?

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  59. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Anton etc. etc.,
    Maybe more Alliance needed in Derry? It was their idea, after all, were it not for Alliance City Council members, it wouldn’t fly at all.

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  60. 6realist. Robinson has been coming out with morwe intemperate language recently which suggests to me he has seen private polling showing his voters have been less than impressed wqith his flags related attitude. I think he would pull the plug on stormont if he tjhought the party’s position as unionist top dogs was under threat. In fact I don’t believe he would have gone in with sf in 2007 if Pailey hadn’t done so. Stormont is only sitting because of Paisley’s ego trip back in ’07, and isn’t guaranteed to survive coming electoral tests.

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  61. Nevin (profile) says:

    “but shut me up”

    That’s not my responsibility, Carl.

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  62. Anton von Padua Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Graf von Arco auf Valley (profile) says:

    It was their idea, after all, were it not for Alliance City Council members, it wouldn’t fly at all.

    Don’t try that on with me, Alliance could have blocked the motion and if so the flag would still be flying up there today; the issue of flag politics and identity could have and should have remained static and prevented from becoming a live one.

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  63. 6crealist (profile) says:

    daniel, I disagree to an extent. The lure of all these self-important ‘trade mission’ jaunts to California, China etc. must be pretty strong: especially for someone like Peter who has a taste for the finer things in life.

    I do agree with you on the polling evidence though – hence why Kelly’s arrest provides Robinson with a convenient moment to bark and let his hair down like the old days. The Spotlight poll on unionist attitudes to protests does suggests attitudes remained hardened.

    During the policing and justice ‘crisis’ of 2010, even the DUP backwoodsmen soon melted when it became clear that their salaries, expense accounts and cushy secretarial job for the wife would end if an accommodation wasn’t reached.

    It’s a lifestyle issue, and there’s too much at stake now for these guys – yes, they might ultimately ditch £5 Pete if their seat seems under threat, but Stormont is here to stay.

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  64. SK (profile) says:

    “It’s amazing the lengths some people will go to defend one of the most evil, depraved, religiliously-motivated child-killers the world has ever seen.”

    _________

    Don’t Drink Bleach/ Ulster Press Centre

    The Newsletter today reported that he was motivated by the fact that the UDA were meeting in a room upstairs. Incidentally, the good people of the Newsletter are not known for their pro-republican agenda.

    Before your name-change you had no problem defending the ‘good name’ of various multiple murderers. With that in mind, I would’ve thought you would have a natural affinity for a man like Kelly?

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  65. 6crealist (profile) says:

    SK

    given the hard-on Ulster [sic] Press Centre [sic] has for convicted mass murderer Billy Hunter, you’d think he’d have a natural affinity for someone like Sean Kelly.

    https://twitter.com/JamieBrysonCPNI/status/299585397531475968

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  66. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    Given Kellys now unconditional release I fear Peter Robo may be falling into “Frazerisms”, i.e. the application of blame for everything bad -ever- to Sinn Fein or the IRA or both by a particularly troubled gentleman called Frazer.

    #frazerfacts has some inventive ones like “IRA sank the Titanic”, “Shergar was the first IRA horseburger” etc…

    Surely we can’t indulge Peter or the bloggers that indulge Peter in these fantasies?

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  67. Submariner (profile) says:

    Don’t Drink Bleach/ Ulster Press Centre

    SK was going to ask you why you thought DDB/UPC was the same person as I haven’t been following Slugger closely of late then i viewed the twitter link and all became clear. Same oul sectarian bigoted shite as was peddled on here by DDB a self confessed supporter of a sectarian murder gang who specialised in killing innocent civilians because of their religion and he wonders why no one takes him seriously.

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  68. Neil (profile) says:

    So the in no way biased cops trailed in the first Republican they could find. Surprising. Especially given the contrast between how they clear protestors off the roads in a matter of minutes in Ardoyne annually, compared to the tens of millions wasted facilitating Loyalist illegal protests. So now that he’s been released unconditionally maybe we could have a new thread.

    How about one along the lines of why the Shinners don’t threaten to collapse the assembly as the Loyalist paramilitary organisations are still armed, orchestrating violence, and on occasion murdering people. Given the PSNI’s suggestion that the same Loyalist terrorists who we never need a thread to discuss are involved in the current protests, and that during a flag related search today the PSNI found two guns, ammunition, cannabis and cash maybe the shinners should suggest that any further support offered by DUP members for these protests, backed as they are by paramilitary, scumbag, terrorist, murdering drug dealers.

    Nah, silly to suggest really, we’ll just leave Robbo to deflect with his talk of pulling down the institutions due to this arrest/unconditional release and ignore the drug dealing, armed, murderous terrorists who are involved in the same protest movement as our morally superior Unionist chums.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Two-held-after-flag-protest-raid/e0644e93-77b7-4646-a4e9-9211d0628f4d

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  69. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Is it time for an Assembly election? Unionism appears to have lost control of themselves. Robbo should know better than put out so much guff before the facts are in. Nesbitt offers nothing. Allister is stuck in the seventies.

    What the hell is going on over there?

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  70. 6realist I see what you mean[from your 3rd paragraph] about the mercenary angle. I agree that Robbo is in more danger from his backwoodsmen than stormont itself, on reflection.

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  71. keano10 (profile) says:

    Sean Kelly has been released without charge.

    Trial by Slugger continues though ( indeed Pete…)

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  72. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    Security expert Brian Rowan confirmed dissident IRA elements had nothing to do with the attempted murder of this catholic teenager.

    The only other group with access to weapons and previous form in this area are Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein.

    How can law-abiding Unionist continue to accept an undemocratic, pro-terrorist government which contains a political party who believes it has the right to attempt to murder young Catholics?

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  73. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    An interesting discussion, one and all. The second young lad shot by Republicans in a week, and what are the main issues?

    The Huns are a bad lot for criticising Republicans for shooting people.

    That nobody has even been more innocent than a Republican.

    A Hun farts and the Robotlicans are shreiking condemnation with their eyes on stalks, but a Republican shoots someone and you’re lucky to get any comment whatsover, never mind criticism.

    What’s the story here? Are Nationalists content for the IRA to dispence rough “justice”/revenge no matter what? And how much longer can the pretence that it’s only “dissidents” involved in this activity?

    And why the distinction between “paramilitary style attacks” and “shootings”?

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  74. Kevsterino (profile) says:

    Toasted,
    It doesn’t appear anyone knows enough of what happened or who did the shooting to make any kind of definitive statement regarding responsibility.
    In that respect, it stands in stark contrast to the “Fly the Flag all the time” demonstrations and their associated violence.

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  75. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    Yeah,kev, nobody knows nathin, blah, blah, blah.

    Shooting after shooting and nobody knows nathin. To the point where they don’t even bother their arse making comment at all.

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  76. “Security expert Brian Rowan confirmed dissident IRA elements had nothing to do with the attempted murder of this catholic teenager.”

    No, he offered an opinion or have I awoke in a world where Brian Rowan’s word is law?

    “The only other group with access to weapons and previous form in this area are Provisional IRA/Sinn Fein.”

    Really? So nobody else owns or has access to guns?

    “How can law-abiding Unionist”

    Sorry but that old chestnut just won’t fly. Your law abiding Unionists have been engaged in illegal protests for months. In fact the very term Unionist and law abiding is almost oxymornic considering your history.

    “continue to accept an undemocratic”

    The people voted for them, the bastards!

    “pro-terrorist government”

    The DUP are quite fond of the British Army but what can you do.

    “which contains a political party who believes it has the right to attempt to murder young Catholics?”

    In fairness Robbo et all gave all that craic up years ago.

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  77. Ulster Press Centre (profile) black spot says:

    Chris, you’re thrashing about making yourself look like a desperate SF zombie – all in an attempt to condone a Sinn Fein attempted murder of a young catholic teenager.

    Disgusting.

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  78. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    “So nobody else owns or has access to guns?”

    In the Ardoyne? Well, no, frankly. Unless you’ve some important evidence you’d like to bring forward.

    Even if you’ve no evidence, some concern might be nice. An 18 year old nearly bled to death after being shot and not one single Republican seems to give a toss. Just like they didn’t give a toss when a man was shot last week. And the time before, and before, and before…

    If this had been anyone other than a republican, I’d expect some comment. The fact that there isn’t any follows an all too familiar MO, as does the standardised comment from the Bots.

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  79. UPC

    1. I’m not a member of Sinn Fein

    2. I didn’t condone any act against this person

    3. There is no evidence whatsoever that Sinn Fein had any involvement in this crime.

    Have you got some you would like to share?

    ToastedPuffin

    So you are telling me that nobody in the Ardoyne area owns a gun?

    Regarding concern, I’ll be honest, I don’t know the guy and any expressed concern would be superficial at best. The same way it would be for someone who got shot in America, China etc.

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  80. sherdy (profile) says:

    ‘Pro-terrorist government’ – that’s no way to talk about our first minister.

    He may have spent some time parading in his red beret, and leading incursions into the Republic, but I thought he had reformed.
    And even he should get a second chance.

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  81. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    Ah Chris,it’d be just awful if someone ended up superficial over this, wouldn’t it? I’d hate to think that someone nearly bled to death following a shooting nobody knows anything about using a gun that anybody could have and someone expressed superficial concern. Doesn’t bear thinking about.

    Given your obvious concern for wee Marty and his merry men and how they look in all this, I’m assuming you must know them intimately, what with you not expressing concern unless you know the people involved…

    But it’s nice you’re being honest. Hahaha!

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  82. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Toastedpuffin

    old kipper…

    I don’t think anyone on here has said it was a good thing to shoot this chappie. In fact I think everyone on here of all persuasions have condemned it.

    I just think a lot of people are just a little battle worn of a continuous stream of slugger threads beating up on the old Shinners/SDLP/Alliance pan-nationalist front, but mostly the former, whenever the slightest opportunity arises to “have a go”.

    It has become formulaic and tired. Here is the formula.

    1. Something happens which you can skew to bash the Shinners.

    2. Do some half-assed research [based entirely on someone elses work that you have blagued] to give the story the veneer of serious comment, legitimacy or credence. Introduce some Latin, French phrases to prove that you are a rara avis indeed.

    3. Put a derogatory slur, or imagination stretch in the title that shows the issue in a plain-wrong/disingeuous/misleading light which raises eyebrows at the latest Sinn Fein outrage.

    4. Fire it up as a thread and watch the whataboutery.

    And Toasted old mate. My days of being worked up by anything that Robo has to say are over. However he evidently still has the power to march you up to the top of the hill and back down again.

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  83. Toastedpuffin

    No point lying and saying that I am deeply concerned about the health and well being of someone I don’t even know the name of, let alone met before.

    You may prefer fake shows of piety and concern, I prefer truth.

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  84. Anton von Padua Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Graf von Arco auf Valley (profile) says:

    I prefer truth.

    Was Gerry Adams in the IRA?

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  85. Anton

    Yes

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  86. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    FDM:

    I think you’re perhaps a little too fixated on Robbo. Certainly more than I am. Yes, he’s a hypocrite, yes he’s trying to draw flak away from himself.

    But that doesn’t alter the fact that a man has nearly lost his life in a shooting and, despite your (erroneous as it turns out) claim that “everyone” has condemned it, nobody really seems to give a toss. Apart from the guy’s mother, who seems very clear indeed who shot him.

    It was pretty much the same with the shooting last week, and the dozens in the last year. I think your (truly bizarre) statement that “I don’t think anyone on here has said it was a good thing to shoot this chappie” is an ackowledgement of the total lack of concern. Yeah, a guy was shot and nearly bled to death, but sure nobody’s sayin’s that’s good, so all’s well with the world! Perhaps when you’ve had time to reflect you’ll come to realise that statement’s actually a pretty shitty thing to commit to cyberspace.

    There’s an elephant in the room that the Bots seem programmed to draw attention from, but, please, allow me:

    Mainstream Irish Republicans are shooting people. Sooner or later they will kill someone. Sooner or later that person will have a family as determined as that of Robert McCartney.

    As far as the difference between mainstream and dissident irish Republicans is concerned, I suspect that there is less to it than meets the (drawn) eye. But that’s another story.

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  87. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    “I prefer truth”

    Good for you, Chris, good for you.

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  88. Sherdy[8.14] Has Robbo never heard of Denis Healey’s first rule of holes? He’s digging away like there was no tomorrow, as if the flag riots hadn’t undermined him enough already. On the happier side, he’s finally annexed the uup as it gave in tonight without a fight. Invasion of the Body Snatchers doesn’t quite cover it.

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  89. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Toastedpuffin

    “I think you’re perhaps a little too fixated on Robbo. Certainly more than I am.”

    Toasted old stick. Robbo has as much relevance to me as a bottomless latex gimp outfit. The only thing that rattles my cage is having to comment on a waister of Robbo’s magnitude at all.

    With respect I think your approach to this sounds marginally hysterical and mawkish . If I walk around this life with my heart on my sleeve it is going to be a very hurtful place to live in. Lifes hard mate so get a helmet. I grew a thick skin over 40 years of people like Robinson trying to make my life miserable. So I am not going to jump to his tune, nor with respect yours either. Cry a river for this guy if you like, but excuse me if I try and see the bigger picture.

    I trust also you are just as vocal when the loyalists were giving people both barrels on the Shankill or indeed abducting and murdering them from Caravan parks in County Down? If you were, fair play but sadly PUL ‘weeping the halls’ for us Catholic types is usually reserved for when [and only when] it can potentially harm Sinn Fein. It therefore gets hard to take people seriously.

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  90. Dixie Elliott (profile) says:

    Gerry Kelly’s reaction smacks of ‘you can’t do this to us after all we’ve done for you.’

    The fact is clear, Sinn Fein has no other choice but to take the latest slap in the face and get on with it. There’s nothing they can do but rant because they lied about being able to hold the PSNI to account and this was just another wee reminder that they are powerless puppets.

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  91. Toastedpuffin (profile) says:

    “Robbo has as much relevance to me as a bottomless latex gimp outfit.”

    Clearly that gimp outfit’s in for some heavy use then, you can’t stop talking about the fella…

    “The only thing that rattles my cage is having to comment on a waister of Robbo’s magnitude at all.”

    Eh, you don’t have to comment. You chose to. Are you drunk perchance? The middle para of pish poor street philosophy suggests you’re well hammered.

    Now, clearly you’re upset about the Republicans getting unfavourable publicity about shooting people, and how dare the Orange Bastards comment on good Catholics, and sure the Huns are as bad, and sure themmuns are hypocrites, and sure nobody knows whodunnit blah blah blah… the Bot MO never varies.

    None of this addresses the substantive issue of the lack of interest in this form of extreme violence (from anyone, until now), nor the inevitability of the Provos killing someone and the poop hitting the fan McCartney style.

    So, whilst your musings weren’t totally without merit this time on a weeknight, there’s not a lot of substance inside yer gimp outfit…

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  92. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    Perhaps there might have been a more anguished response from nationalists if the victim had been left on a road obstructing traffic?

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  93. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Toasted

    Dissappointed matey.

    So I am a mixture of drunk and illeducated [pish poor street philosophy].

    Whats that slugger rule? No “Ad Hominen” comments. [Bye the bye, please don't card anyone on my account. I am a big boy (especially in the gimp suit) and able to take care of myself]

    I rest easy knowing that I have worked hard enough to have more post nominals after my name than most people have in their name.

    I also note that this great empathy you have for human beings doesn’t extend to those you actually interact with?

    Good night.

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  94. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Anton von Padua:

    Don’t try that on with me, Alliance could have blocked the motion and if so the flag would still be flying up there today;

    Why would it be necessary to block the motion given that unionists were perfectly happy when they voted through the same motion in Lisburn and Craigavon ?

    Why would Alliance expose itself to legal action ? (which is the reason why those Lisburn and Craigavon unionists did what they did) ?

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  95. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Dixie:

    The fact is clear, Sinn Fein has no other choice but to take the latest slap in the face and get on with it. There’s nothing they can do but rant because they lied about being able to hold the PSNI to account and this was just another wee reminder that they are powerless puppets.

    Huh ? What’s the accountability of the PSNI got to do with anything ?

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  96. Anton von Padua Alfred Emil Hubert Georg Graf von Arco auf Valley (profile) says:

    Why would Alliance expose itself to legal action ?

    Why has there not been any legal action against those councils that don’t fly the union flag at all if the legal advice states designated days as sound?

    Why was there not any legal challenge throughout the period when the flag flew for 365 days a year in Belfast?

    I think you’ll find it was simply a political decision and equality is only used to spook liberals into doing something unnecessary as nationalist councils don’t follow suit, nationalists don’t seem to pay any heed to equality advice, worse still such councils even decide to name a play park after an IRA man.

    Then there is the sadly laughable situation of the so-called City of Culture which can’t even bring itself to fly the union flag on designated days even though it has been designated as a place at ease with and full of all sorts of culture. What a complete joke.

    So until nationalists decide to compromise as well and do something that they don’t really want to do but do so because of other minorities, I would be most grateful if Alliance would piss off and stop delivering shared future in unionist areas only, which usually means a reduction in british symbols and so on, usually against the wishes of the majority of that particular community.

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  97. FDM (profile) black spot says:

    @Anton Von eejit

    ‘delivering shared future in unionist areas only”
    ——————–

    You don’t mean unionist you mean protestant nationalist (PN). Many unionists, actual unionists, don’t give a monkeys about what happens at city hall.

    Last time I looked Belfast wasn’t a PN area. Its actually majority nationalist. Greater Belfast my understanding is about 50-50.

    Last time I looked neither was the wee six. 40% British. Thats what the census said.

    Ireland as whole? I’d said somewhere between 75-80% nationalist.

    “usually against the wishes of the majority” .

    Now come on stop flirting with democracy. You can’t hold up banners saying “Democracy Doesn’t Work” and expect to be taken seriously. You are such a tease….

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  98. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Why has there not been any legal action against those councils that don’t fly the union flag at all if the legal advice states designated days as sound?

    That’s not how it works.

    A solicitor informs councillors of a problem that might lead to legal action. If councillors fail to act on this and (eventually) someone takes legal action, and the council loses, the councillors themselves are held personally liable for the costs/damages – which may be considerable.

    This is why a few years ago unionist councillors in Lisburn were forced to allow civil partnership ceremonies to use council facilities. It’s not because they had an epiphany on same-sex relationships; it was because the council solicitor told them that they had to change it or they would be sued. By way of protest those same councillors passed a motion condemning the fact that they had to overturn their civil partnership ban.

    Why was there not any legal challenge throughout the period when the flag flew for 365 days a year in Belfast?

    Because nobody took a claim to court. That does not mean it cannot happen.

    I think you’ll find it was simply a political decision

    OK then, so if that’s the case why did unionist councillors in Lisburn and Craigavon vote for designated days in their own councils ?

    and equality is only used to spook liberals into doing something unnecessary as nationalist councils don’t follow suit, nationalists don’t seem to pay any heed to equality advice,

    They don’t need to – nationalist councils operate a no-flags policy. They therefore cannot be sued under the employment legislation to do with symbols in the workplace. If those nationalist councils chose to hoist a tricolour, there would be legal action and the unionists would be leading the charge. Quite rightly too.

    worse still such councils even decide to name a play park after an IRA man.

    Bit of a tricky one that, a play park is not a workplace.

    So until nationalists decide to compromise as well and do something that they don’t really want to do but do so because of other minorities,

    Nationalists have already been doing this :
    - Martin McGuinness meeting the Queen
    - the SF Lord Mayor of Belfast stepping down early to allow the DUP to take the role in time for the jubilee celebrations
    - nationalists use d’Hondt on the councils they control which usually leads to at least some unionists getting council roles.

    I’ve yet to hear unionists articulate some of the other compromises they’d like. The only things I seem to hear from unionists are demands that nationalists shouldn’t get anything they ask for.

    I would be most grateful if Alliance would piss off and stop delivering shared future in unionist areas only, which usually means a reduction in british symbols and so on, usually against the wishes of the majority of that particular community.

    Once again. Alliance implemented a policy that unionists supported quite happily in Craigavon and Lisburn without raising so much as a peep about it. Please stop escalating trivial decisions over flags into major issues.

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  99. Dixie Elliott (profile) says:

    Comrade Stalin asks…

    “Huh ? What’s the accountability of the PSNI got to do with anything ?”

    Exactly, the PSNI are unaccountable to anyone outside of the British. The so called accountability mechanisms claimed by Kelly and company are nonexistent otherwise heads would have rolled long ago.

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  100. Reader (profile) says:

    Comrade Stalin: Bit of a tricky one that, a play park is not a workplace.
    It will be in a shockingly dangerous state soon enough if it isn’t maintained.

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