… a ballot paper in one hand: #Gaza 2012

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There seems to be nothing that exposes the impotence of the much vaunted international community more starkly than the meek tolerance of Israeli violence in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon. News outlets like the BBC are now reporting both that the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) are leafleting Gazans warning of an imminent invasion of ground forces, and, that all air attacks will end later today (technically these aren’t mutually exclusive claims). Either way, the recent Operation Pillar of Cloud has already seen the deaths of 110 Palestinians and 3 Israeli’s, following IDF incursions into Gaza at the start of November.

Conventionally, US (and many other) media begin their narrative on the 8th November with attacks on the IDF troops who were already in Gaza by the 8th November and much subsequent reporting has attempted to balance a long established pattern of limited Israeli casualties and hugely disproportionate Palestinian casualties (death rates which mirror their relative military capabilities). The apparent strategic clarity in globally communicating a pro-Israeli narrative reflects the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby in the US but is repeatedly held up as evidence of ‘western’ hypocrisy around the rest of the world. This peculiarity even persists on Irish radio – Newstalk FM repeatedly reported on Monday that Israeli deaths were due ‘to Hamas rockets’ whilst Gazans died ‘during violence’, inserting absolute clarity over responsibility for Israeli dead and a subtle question mark over who ultimately is responsible for the deaths of Palestinians. A minor point but one which seems to have been filtered by editorial policy.

 And it is not like Israeli voices are particularly nuanced in their pronouncements, such as this from Gilad Sharon (son of Ariel) in last Sunday’s Jerusalem Post:

There is no justification for the State of Gaza being able to shoot at our towns with impunity. We need to flatten entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Flatten all of Gaza. The Americans didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough, so they hit Nagasaki, too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire.

I am not sure how Sharon’s views are received by Israeli public opinion, but there has (worryingly) been relatively little notice taken of the comments in the west. Only a few weeks ago, it was reported that between 2007 and 2010 there were Israeli-imposed limits on food imported into Gaza based on calorie count, allowing Hamas to claim that it was:

…evidence that the Gaza blockade was planned and the target was not Hamas or the government, as the occupation always claimed. This blockade targeted all human beings …

These are the same Gazan Palestinians that democratically elected Hamas in 2006, only to have sanctions imposed (with the approval of the Quartet). Gaza was then inserted into what is apparently referred to in Israeli policy as ‘cutting the grass’, cyclical military operations that Roger Cohen suggests function with:

… policies that radicalize the situation, erode middle ground, demonstrate the impossibility of agreement, and so facilitate continued Israeli occupation of the West Bank, the expansion of settlements there and the steady eclipse of the idea of a two-state peace.

And the evidence for this? A straightforward table (see below) from @ramielashy showing the synchronicity of Israeli military campaigns and Israeli elections, prompting Gershom Gorenberg to reverse von Clauswitzpolicy becomes an extension of war.

 

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  • Barnshee

    Israel with USA support has been murdering Palestinians and stealing their land and water for 70+ years- then whining

    Israel has so abused the Palestinian people that it cannot allow a free Palestinian state next door for fear of retribution. Accession to the UN for Palestine is long overdue a total boycott of Israel and the war criminals arraigned at the Hague ASAP

  • iluvni

    blah,blah,blah…
    a decision to stop firing rockets at their bigger better armed neighbour would be a better policy for those in Gaza.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Barnshee
    …boycott of Israel…

    Why should an innocent Israeli orange exporter or software designer be punished because you disagree with his government’s actions?

    Surely that’s what you lot accuse Israel of doing? (ie. punishing civilians and non-combatants instead of the ones who deserve it)

  • galloglaigh

    Maybe if illegal Israeli settlements would cease, then the subsequent demolition of Arab farms and homes, along with the forced deportation of tens of thousands of Arabs from their homeland would not drive the bitter wedge between the two ‘sides’. The issue here is not the rockets, but the settlements. These settlements are illegal under international law. As are the deportations.

    Here is a list of Israeli’s illegal activities going back decades. These do not include the Geneva Conventions’ they have ignored, which are plenty-full.

    But of course they justify these actions to their population, by putting out crap like this.

  • galloglaigh

    Here’s an interesting link to a Jewish MP’s feelings on the Israeli state, and its acts of aggression against its neighbours. He compares them to the Nazis. He’s not the first to do that – nor will he be the last!

  • grandimarkey

    @ Don’t Drink Bleach

    “that’s what you lot accuse Israel of doing”

    Great stuff.

    @iluvni

    “blah,blah,blah…
    a decision to stop firing rockets at their bigger better armed neighbour would be a better policy for those in Gaza.”

    Read John’s post, there’s a cycle of violence that begins a few months before every election. The IDF murdered a 13 year old boy 2 days before this latest eruption of slaughter, this fits in perfectly with the point John is making.

    What is happening in Gaza is criminal, hundreds of people have died already and more are sure to follow. It’s disgusting. And to those that prescribe to the narrative that the slaughter of hundreds of Palestinian women and children is ‘self defence’ – This is not Israel defending itself, this is Israel attacking with full force a population which has no shelter and no where to escape.

  • galloglaigh

    And of course that 13 year old boy, along with the two year old, and 3 year old girls murdered yesterday voted for Hamas. The voting franchise in Gaza comes at birth…

  • Greenflag

    The Israeli ‘children ‘killers are at it again . Perhaps Netanyahoo is just a bit peeved that his warmongering buddy Romney was’nt elected and is lashing out at wherever he can -usually the weakest .

    Gaza is the biggest open air concentration camp in the world and the Israelis should be ashamed of the way they have treated these people .

    Lest we all get lost in the current who started it -this particular bout of violence goes back to the killing of a young Palestinian who refused to obey an Israeli order to stop walking . The kid was unarmed and also deaf and retarded and of no danger to Israel .

    It’s mentioned in the enclosed link

    http://www.democracynow.org/2012/11/20/no_place_is_safe_after_assaults

  • Submariner

    ” (ie. punishing civilians and non-combatants instead of the ones who deserve it)”

    DDB as a supporter of a terrorist group that specialised in targeting civilians and non combatants for murder I would have thought you would be supportive of the concept.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Greenflag:
    …Gaza is the biggest open air concentration camp in the world …

    With it’s own hotels, apartment complexes, ice cream factories, wheat farms, taxi industry, mobile phone stores, soccer teams and surf clubs.

    Sounds terrifying indeed.

    Those European Jews at Auschwitz don’t know how lucky they had it….

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Submariner:
    (ie. punishing civilians and non-combatants instead of the ones who deserve it)”

    DDB as a supporter of a terrorist group that specialised in targeting civilians and non combatants for murder I would have thought you would be supportive of the concept.

    Blatant man playing. Any chance of some moderation here Mick??

  • tacapall

    “There seems to be nothing that exposes the impotence of the much vaunted international community more starkly than the meek tolerance of Israeli violence in the Palestinian territories and Lebanon”

    Not to mention the land grabbing for the last 60 odd years John, how many Palestinians have they murdered in the Israeli quest to wipe Palestine off the map and rename the territory Israel.

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/12/provocative-palestine-israel-ads-at-train-stations-rile-critics/

  • galloglaigh

    He’s not man playing – He’s pointing out, again, that you’re a hypocrite.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    tacapall:
    …how many Palestinians have they murdered in the Israeli quest to wipe Palestine off the map and rename the territory Israel.

    How can you support the exact same tactics in Ulster yet oppose them in Israel??

    Is that not hypocrisy?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    galloglaigh (profile) 20 November 2012 at 5:39 pm
    He’s not man playing – He’s pointing out, again, that you’re a hypocrite.

    But I didn’t say what my views were on the matter?

    He must be a mind reader.

  • Ruarai

    John – what does the following sentence mean? Can you unpack/expand?

    The apparent strategic clarity in globally communicating a pro-Israeli narrative reflects the strength of the pro-Israeli lobby in the US

    I think you’re saying, in part, that there is a lobby in the US that is successfully implementing a strategy, one with global reach, and one that is leading to a pro-Israel narrative across the Western press – including Ireland’s Today FM that you refer to?

    If so, or something similar, could you clarify further while expanding on what this strategy may entail? Is it based on propaganda, ownership recruitment, intimidation? Please elaborate.

  • tacapall

    “How can you support the exact same tactics in Ulster yet oppose them in Israel”

    The same way you can support the Israeli’s

    November 9-13, 1946
    Nineteen persons, eleven British soldiers and policemen and eight Arab constables, were killed in Palestine during this period as Jewish underground members, using land mines and suitcase bombs, increased their attacks on railroad stations, trains and even streetcars. .

    Dec. 2-5, 1946
    Ten persons, including six British soldiers, were killed in bomb and land-mine explosions. .

    January 22, 1947
    Colonial Secretary Arthur Creech Jones informed the House of Commons 73 British subjects were murdered by underground
    members in 1946 and “no culprits have been convicted.” .

    April 25, 1947
    A Stern Gang squad drove a stolen post office truck loaded with explosives into the Sarona police compound and detonated it, killing five British policemen. .

    http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/brits.html

  • John Ó Néill

    Ruarai – I am referring to the idea of ‘strategic clarity’ in communications – in theory media outlets should produce a range of views as they are produced by a spectrum of people with different opinions. The US government, the British government, EU etc all coalesce around a position that seemingly ignores actions by the Israelis (e.g. the UN resolutions). If you consider that they never makes outright condemnation of acts like the Israelis carried out – transpose Netanyahu for Bashir Assad in Syria and look at the actions carried out – they are pretty much the same.

    The pro-Israeli lobby in the US has managed to successfully lever itself into a position where the conservatives/neoliberals/right see Israel as the cornerstone of US policy in the middle East. While the Democrats (who don’t deviate significantly from that line) arguably own Hollywood, conservative America dominates the news channels. They seem to be able to lever that particular position beyond the US (through ownership and other agreements) and demand conformity to their particular view on foreign policy. Unlike the tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists, I think it is a logical thing for Israel to do (even if I don’t agree with it). I wouldn’t see anything more sinister in this than utilising the collective strength of pro-Israeli opinion in the US to Israeli benefit (there is a substantial Irish-American lobby that local politicians are forever trying to connect to). The disconnect here is that the pro-Israeli lobby has US opinion largely convinced that what is good for Israel (or, more particularly, the aggressive and antagonistic Israel that we see at the minute) is also good for the US (when it patently isn’t).

  • Submariner

    Why should an innocent Israeli orange exporter or software designer be punished because you disagree with his government’s actions?

    Surely that’s what you lot accuse Israel of doing? (ie. punishing civilians and non-combatants instead of the ones who deserve it)

    DDB this is what you said. You are asking why innocent civilians and non combatants should be punished. I am pointing out your hypocrisy on the matter of targeting innocent civilians and non combatants given your fulsome support for the sectarian murder gang who specialised in killing innocent civilians and non combatants. I hope that is plain enough for even you to understand.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Submariner:DDB this is what you said. You are asking why innocent civilians and non combatants should be punished. I am pointing out your hypocrisy on the matter of targeting innocent civilians and non combatants given your fulsome support for the sectarian murder gang who specialised in killing innocent civilians and non combatants. I hope that is plain enough for even you to understand.

    But I haven’t expressed my opinions on Israel so how could I be a hypocrite??

    I am merely pointing out the hypocrisy of Irish nationalists and IRA supporters who support punishing Israeli civilians for the actions of their fellow citizens and government – yet still gurn and whinge decades after Loughinisland, McGurks, Sean Grahams, etc (which were carried out using the exact same justification).

    You can’t have it both ways – or are you all hypocrites?

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    At this stage, it matters little who actually started this latest tit for tat. People are suffering and dying and it needs to stop.
    Yes, successive Israeli governments have treated the civilians of Gaza and the West Bank shabbily and worse and the present Government seems to have no interest in the “Two State” solution.
    But, having said that, the Israeli government have the responsibility to protect their civilians. We’ll likely not know if their response has been proportionate or excessive.
    I don’t know why John thinks that quoting an obvious extremist in Israel adds much to the debate.

  • Submariner

    DDB you support the murder of civilians and non combatants so even questioning others makes you a hypocrite. I stick to being a UVF mouthpiece is suits you better.

  • Greenflag

    Don’t drink the bleach ,

    ‘Those European Jews at Auschwitz don’t know how lucky they had it….’

    Indeed . The Nazis even supplied them with violin orchestras which they played as ‘background noise ‘ and it provided a cover of ‘normality ‘ for the world outside .

    The Israeli’s permit the Gazans to play soccer and surf ? How very kind of them . Will they allow them to play their violin orchestras too ?

    And when will the next ‘cull ‘ take place ? Whenever theres another Israeli election in the offing .

    Israel is fast becoming world pariah state numero uno. They need to quickly move to recognising a Palestinian State in the region . The ‘new ‘democracies surrounding Israel will not put up with continuing Israeli war and humiliation of the Palestinian people on the West Bank and in Gaza . Former USA President Jimmy Carter has called the Israeli treatment of Palestinians on a par with apartheid South Africa’s treatment of it’s indigenous peoples.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Submariner:
    DDB you support the murder of civilians and non combatants so even questioning others makes you a hypocrite. I stick to being a UVF mouthpiece is suits you better.

    You’d be better telling the IRA-supporting McGurks families that they have no right to complain about UVF bombs then…

    Anyway, why has no-one mentioned the six Palestinians murdered this afternoon by Hamas in Gaza??

    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1290316–gaza-conflict-hamas-militants-kill-6-suspected-informers-for-israel-reports

    Thrown out of a minibus and gunned to death – must bring back happy memories for all you IRA supporters out there?

  • Greenflag

    mister joe ,

    ‘We’ll likely not know if their response has been proportionate or excessive.’

    The Israeli response is always excessive which is why there are 120 dead Gazans to 3 Israeli dead . The same proportions or even worse are seen from earlier ‘exchanges’.

    ‘The Israeli government have the responsibility to protect their civilians. ‘

    Nobody denies that Joe -They also have a responsibilty to find a political solution to the Palestinian demand for a State of their own .

  • Submariner

    “But, having said that, the Israeli government have the responsibility to protect their civilians. We’ll likely not know if their response has been proportionate or excessive.”

    Joe i take it you believe that Hamas has the same right given that they are the DEMOCRATICALLY elected govt of Gaza?

  • Submariner

    “Anyway, why has no-one mentioned the six Palestinians murdered this afternoon by Hamas in Gaza??”

    Considering the amount of protestants murdered by the UVF for allegedly being informers. A group you openly support id say you are again on shaky ground on the hypocrisy stakes.

  • Greenflag

    Don’t drink bleach @ 20 November 2012 at 6:30 pm.

    Try Toilet Duck instead of Bleach -it might help focus your remaining grey matter on the thread topic i.e Gaza .

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    GF,

    I believe I said that re the Two State solution.
    Submariner, Yes.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Submariner:
    Joe i take it you believe that Hamas has the same right given that they are the DEMOCRATICALLY elected govt of Gaza?

    A government which murders six of it’s own citizens in a public street without a trial cannot be taken seriously:

    http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1290316–gaza-conflict-hamas-militants-kill-6-suspected-informers-for-israel-reports

  • Submariner

    Thanks Joe for making your position clear. There is no easy solution to the tragedy that is Gaza but what is needed is an honest broker to step in an America is not it. The world community needs to take ownership and try to broker some sort of solution based on such a broker being a neutral player and not like America has been an extension of Israel. When Obama won in 2008 I had high hopes that there may have been a change in American thinking and that they would try to provide some sort of new thinking to the arena,however i was quickly disavowed of that notion.

  • Submariner

    “A government which murders six of it’s own citizens in a public street without a trial cannot be taken seriously:”

    Does 30th January 1972 ring any bell with you at all? If you didn’t exist someone would have to invent you for the comedy value alone.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    I don’t think the six Gazans murdered today by Hamas were armed with nail bombs and/or members of an illegal terrorist group….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Donaghy

  • Alias

    After a weekend in which 122 rockets were launched from Hamas-ruled Gaza against the civilian population of southern Israel, forcing a million citizens into bomb shelters, it didn’t take a political scientist to figure out that Israel would act to defend its citizens from Palestinian attacks.

    Plus we have these charming sentiments from the highest religious authority in the Palestinian Authority, Mufti Muhammad Hussein, at a Fatah 47th anniversary celebration event broadcast on PA TV, 9 Jan 2012, which show the level of hate that Palestinians have for their neighbours. He presents killing of Jews as an Islamic religious goal: “Muslims’ destiny is to kill Jews”. And the moderator at the event adds: “Our war with the descendants of apes and pigs [Jews] is a war of religion and faith”.

    http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=6098

    It can only end with Israel taking control of Gaza and imposing a police force that will act to wipe out these terrorists rather than colude with them.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Alias,

    That simply won’t work. It was tried and it failed. The only solution is the creation of a Palestinian State that accepts Israel’s right to exist.

  • Alias

    Joe, a two-state solution isn’t the Palestinian end-game, and neither Hamas and Fatah have any difference between them on that:

    Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh in late 2010 making it as clear as can be that ending the ‘occupation’ means annihilating Israel:

    http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/2729.htm

    Palestinian Authority negotiator and Fatah Head of Foreign Relations Nabil Shaath on ANB TV (Lebanon/London) – 13 July 2011:

    “We’ll Never Accept ‘Two States for Two Peoples’ Solution”

  • Submariner

    DDB as i said pure comedy value.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Alias,

    You know as well as I do that if Israel was being annihilated by a neighbouring State, that State would disappear in a series of blinding flashes.

  • Reader

    Submariner: Joe i take it you believe that Hamas has the same right given that they are the DEMOCRATICALLY elected govt of Gaza?
    What did they do with the opposition? And when is the *next* election in Gaza?

  • Greenflag

    Alias ,

    Israel can’t continue indefinitely it’s never ending war with a billion of it’s neighbours without ultimately destroying itself . It’s past time for a negotiated solution for a Palestinian State and for Israel to lift it’s siege and blockade of Gaza .

    As things stand Israel is losing whatever support it had in the west . Time to get the UN in and establish a Palestinian State which fully recognises Israel’s right to exist .

  • Neil

    What did they do with the opposition?

    The implication being that the evil Hamas rounded up the nice friendly Fatah guys and ethnically cleansed them or whatever. I won’t insult your intelligence to state the blatantly obvious answer to your question.

    And when is the *next* election in Gaza?

    Initially set to be 2012, wiki vaguely and unsourced says maybe 2013. I suspect some people will criticise them for not holding it in a pile of smoking rubble while Israeli jets drop bombs on families if this drags on. One might even think that having their finances frozen (because those pesky Palestinians voted for the *wrong* people) might have had some kind of impact on a state’s ability to hold an election.

  • Neil

    Incidentally if you consider Gaza a state (which sometimes suits Israeli types, so they sometimes do) then an Israeli soldiers boot on it’s soil, or drone in it’s airspace, entitles that sometimes-if-it-suits-us state to react to that broach of it’s sovereignty. But then Israeli soldiers boots are on Gazan soil daily, it makes no odds. So Hamas are not a government – they are merely the winners of the election held in an occupied state.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Greenflag:
    As things stand Israel is losing whatever support it had in the west .

    Any evidence to back this claim up?

  • RepublicanStones

    I’m not surprised you’re an Itamar Marcus fan Alias. Now i could cite plenty of unsavoury guff spewed by Israeli Rabbi’s and politicians, theres a wealth of it.

    You mention projectiles from Gaza, but ,not surprisingly just like the IDF, you fail to mention Israeli fire into Gaza.
    Which when looked at, makes interesting reading…
    http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/02/half-story-what-idfspokesperson-leaves.html

    Of course, the tendency Israel has in breaking ceasefires is another thing not really reported, because it doesn’t fit in with the ‘Israel only retaliates’ narrative http://imeu.net/news/article0022250.shtml

    One must also question the wisdom in murdering the man with whom you were in negotiations with to broker a truce
    http://m.dailykos.com/story/2012/11/15/1161891/-Israeli-newspaper-Israel-attacked-Gaza-knowing-truce-was-in-the-works

    One also has to ask why names like Fahmi Abu Riash don’t merit western attention? Why an occupied people can’t even resist with force against military targets of their occupiers without it being denounced as terrorism?
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/southern-israel-comes-under-rocket-attack-from-gaza/

    But here we are, the world upside down, where the occupied MUST conform to the demands of the occupier. Where the western world expects a native people, the majority of whom have been ethnically cleansed off their own land, to ensure the protection and safety of the state responsible for their slow march toward oblivion.

  • RepublicanStones

    What did they do with the opposition?

    Do tell us reader, but try and paint the whole picture…

  • RepublicanStones

    Two state solution is on the shelf with the Rubix cube and the mullet greenflag. One state is where its headed.

  • Ruarai

    It’s easy (and fair) to point the finger, whether at the IDF or at Hamas, regarding wanton disregard for civilians.

    But any practical suggestions?

    Any thoughts on what would be a justifiable approach from Palestinians to resist occupation generally, (not just specific rocket attacks and occasional ground invasions)?

    And similarly, what should Israel do to protect civilians from rocket attacks? Just because those firing the rockets – and we’re talking a sustained barrage of hundreds, even just recently – are fired by incompetents doesn’t reduce one iota the lethality of their intention or potential.

  • Framer

    What happened to the film ‘Shalom Belfast’ that was going to be on BBC TV NI last night?
    It disappeared faster than one on Jimmy Savile.

  • RepublicanStones

    Any thoughts on what would be a justifiable approach from Palestinians to resist occupation generally, (not just specific rocket attacks and occasional ground invasions)?

    Even civil resistance ends up with internment or death (Bassem Abu Rahma). Recourse at the UN is routinely blocked by you know who. what else is left? If even targeting the occupiers military gets labeled as terrorism (even though under int Law occupied people have the right to resist with force), if even civil resistance ends you up in Administrative detention (internment) or dead, and you can’t take your case to the world…whats left?

    And the sustained barrage you speak of is as a result of Israeli action. If pillar of Cloud is meant to act as a deterrent, its actually had the reverse effect.

  • socaire

    Strange how the interlopers/pioneers feel the need to side with the establishment in all the global conflicts or it just a knee jerk to the Irish natives supporting the disposessed? Can they not distinguish Jews and anti-Semitism from fascist Zionism?

  • BluesJazz

    As entertainment value, Operation Pillar of Cloud certainly beats ‘I’m a celebrity….’

  • socaire

    Yeah, you probably read The Sun as well

  • BluesJazz

    Nope

    Just Mark Regev, but the IDF ‘surgical strikes’ are ultra cool. Take out the psychos with minimal impact elsewhere.
    The way it should be.

    You cannot not be impressed by the way the IDF destroy the cockroaches of Hamas, yet leave civilians (virtually) untouched. Excellent stuff, preferable to watching Nadine Dorries eating innocent bugs.

  • RepublicanStones

    Surgical Strikes BluesJazz huh? What kind of surgical strike requires the wholesale depopulation of 11 villages?

    http://blog.thejerusalemfund.org/2012/11/israeli-military-order-to-besieged.html

    I also guess the Al Dalu family were cockroaches huh?

  • galloglaigh

    Oh dear…

    Cockroaches?

    The war criminals of the Israeli establishment and Hamas are the cockroaches, not the 30 innocent children killed during this pre-election strike (so far). I guess the journalists murdered so they can’t reproduce the slaughter of innocence were cockroaches as well?

  • galloglaigh

    Any chance of fixing page 1 so I can read the rest of the comments?

  • BluesJazz

    The leaflets are a decent gesture. Hamas hides behind the civilian shield. The Al Dalu family were unlucky, they should have chosen better neighbours.
    That’s the way the terrorist cookie crumbles..so it goes.

  • RepublicanStones

    Hamas hides behind the civilian shield

    If i may be so crude as to cut and paste another users comment which highlights the ridiculousness of this oft heard criticism of Hamas…

    You’re right. Hamas should not behave like every other guerrilla force that’s preceded it; instead, it should engage the IDF on open terrain, in classic set-piece battles. To do so, however, it will need arms, logistical support, diplomatic cover, and training equal to that of the IDF. I therefore propose (and so should you) that the US provide the palestinians (both Hamas and the preferred PLO, just as we arm both Labor and Likud) the $8.5 million per day that it currently provides the state of Israel. Because history doesn’t begin in a vacuum, we would also need to make up for all of the time lost since 1967, so we should divert the US 5th fleet currently threatening Iran in the Persian Gulf in order to provide the necessary balance of forces to level the playing field until the palestinians can catch up. Finally, we should make both sides sign treaties prohibiting the use of human shields, since, as we know from the 2010 Givati Brigade case, overwhelming military superiority is, in and of itself, insufficient guarantee against the cowardly practice of human shields.

    Read more: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2012/11/the-wrong-house-in-gaza.html#ixzz2CoIBqe8Y

  • BluesJazz

    Republican Stones
    If you want to support Sharia Law , anti-semitism and medieval religious extremism, that’s your prerogative.
    Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran aren’t my cup of tea, unlike you.
    But I don’t want their way of life imposed upon those who support the only democracy in the middle east.
    Israel is entitled to protect freedom for itself. That others want to destroy freedom and democracy means they pay the penalty.

  • BluesJazz

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/israel-demands-our-support-because-it-fights-its-war-against-terrorists-in-our-name-8335857.html

    An excellent riposte:

    Fisk is a burnt out case…a looser drunk who grinds away in 1 gear. If you want to know about Hamas (Fisk’s local team)read Michael Burleigh’s book “Blood and Rage.” Imagine supporting an organization that recruits 14 year old suicide bombers and even young women (well done Fisk). They hide behind women and children and use injury and death as part of their propaganda strategy. On BBC’s World Have Your Say it was more than a little depressing to hear the justification of the use of violence on both sides. Fisk couldn’t exist as a scribe in any other region because he can only write about the violent and twisted part of the world he inhabits. Hamas the team RF supports. What a charlatan!

  • galloglaigh

    BJ

    Have you ever heard the story of the Chinese workers who, while working in the ‘Middle East’s only democracy’, were banned from having sex with Jews. This is a fact. I could write further about the racism that exists within the State of Israel (let alone it’s illegal occupations and settlements), but why should I bother? You get your news in red=top rags. That’s apparent.

    Have a wee read over this essay by David Kirshbaum… You’ll soon find out why…

  • galloglaigh
  • galloglaigh
  • Dont Drink Bleach

    But your linked article is from before this latest round of violence started???

    :confused:

  • galloglaigh

    I’m surprised it’s taken you this long to realise how confused you are.

    The date of the link makes it all the more relevant. Since that article, Israeli’s two largest allies in the region, Egypt and Turkey, are no longer as friendly. In fact the Turkish leader described the Israeli government and the IDF as terrorists this week.

    I guess that’s what happens though when you rely on red-top rags for your global news – you end up with Rupert Mudoch’s interpretation of how things are in the big bad world.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    galloglaigh:
    The date of the link makes it all the more relevant. Since that article, Israeli’s two largest allies in the region, Egypt and Turkey, are no longer as friendly.

    Yeah, because of changes inside those two countries and the behaviour of their citizens.

    Nothing to do with Israel or it’s behaviour.

  • galloglaigh

    Now you’re back tracking from the original evidence. More and more governments are condemning Israel and showing concern in the region. The rise in UN states who will support a two state settlement is telling. It’s a matter of time.

    Israel though is backing itself into a corner. Its support is running thin. The UN figures speak for themselves. The worldwide polls speak for themselves. The Palestinians will soon speak for themselves at the UN.

    Prove otherwise. And please, don’t use red-top rags.

  • galloglaigh

    Nothing to do with Israel or it’s behaviour

    Yep, nothing to do with the murder of 9 Turkish citizens on international water. Another of Israel’s war crimes.

    But sure ye wouldn’t read that in the Star.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    galloglaigh:
    Now you’re back tracking from the original evidence. More and more governments are condemning Israel and showing concern in the region. The rise in UN states who will support a two state settlement is telling. It’s a matter of time.

    Why do you keep telling lies?

    Please provide some evidence to back up your ludicrous claims.

  • galloglaigh

    Open your eyes DDB – both of them.

  • Barnshee

    DDB
    “Why should an innocent Israeli orange exporter or software designer be punished because you disagree with his government’s actions?

    Surely that’s what you lot accuse Israel of doing? (ie. punishing civilians and non-combatants instead of the ones who deserve it)”

    Israel`s adult citizens (other than the religious ultras) all serve with the Israel Defence Forces The are thus de facto or potential war criminals and should be treated as such.

    The only effective non violent action available is total boycott of Israel and its citizens. Facing an international arrest warrant for war crimes when they travel abroad would focus the mind somewhat.

    Exactly the same sanction should apply to war criminals on the other side

  • John Ó Néill

    Various claims being made on Twitter this morning suggest this isn’t going to end anytime soon.

    ‏@rachshabi
    #Israeli army radio, vice PM Silvan Shalom: ground invasion has a price but if there’s no choice, that’s what we’ll do #Gaza

    ‏@hassassin2608
    #US has just blocked an otherwise-unanimous #UN Security Council statement for an immediate cease-fire between #Israel and Hamas”

    @pol_og
    #Breaking MTV: Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the #TelAviv bus bombing http://www.naharnet.com

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Obviously man-playing is acceptable on this site as long as the recipient is a Protestant.

  • Submariner

    THE reality of what some people on this board are supporting

    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v311/chuck1967/Magdi.jpg

    Professor Magdi, a clinician in Gaza, hadn’t seen his family in 8 days as he was treating wounded people constantly at a hospital in Gaza.

    Today, his son came to visit him at the hospital instead.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Are there no injuries on the Israeli side?

    No deaths either??

  • galloglaigh

    DDB

    Of course there are, and they are wrong. Israeli civilians are killed by terrorists. Gazan civilians are killed by terrorists. The one thing that separates both sets of terrorists, is that one has a standing army, a navy, and an airforce, the other has AK47′s and home-made rockets on the back of pickups. These rockets are ineffective, unlike the weapons of mass destruction used by Israel.

    The disproportionate number of Gazans outweighs any justification. They can’t defend themselves from an illegal occupying force.

    This will all end in tears for Israel. The writing is on the wall.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Yet you and your tag team partner refuse to post photos of dead and injured Israeli children.

    Why is that?

  • galloglaigh

    This is interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXpmzHNFxlE&list=UUdUAI319whTmWI2D6hbMxBg&index=1&feature=plcp

    The mass media is full of those pictures DDB. The reason for posting Gazan children, is to get them out there. They are rarely shown on MMS.

    But for a person who describes sectarian children and granny killers as counter-terrorists, it’s a bit rich of you to ask such a question.

  • Mick Fealty

    DDB and Sub. One more remark of the manplaying type and you are both, I say both, off the site for a fortnight. We know you guys don’t like each other. But that’s no business of ours.

    Seriously, you have a meaty article to get stuck into. So get stuck into it, and NOT each other!!!!

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Mick, just enforce the site’s rules and there won’t be a problem.

    Gallo and Sub seem to follow me around this site replying to my posts with ‘whatabout the Shankill Butchers’ and other such nonsense. It’s getting a bit tiresome now.

  • galloglaigh

    Sorry dude I don’t follow anyone around. What I try and do, is remind you of your stance (you know the one). Even people that would be seen as extreme unionist Sluggerites have condemned some of your comments. This is an open forum, where people challenge or agree with each others’ comments.

    If you can’t hack the heat, should you be in the kitchen?

    Back on topic now and a ceasefire has apparently been agreed

  • Submariner

    Mick I am not man playing. I have replied to DDBs questions to my ON TOPIC posts and merely pointed out the hypocrisy of his position. As for me not liking him. I don’t know him as he is an anonymous poster on this site, what I do dislike is his open support for a sectarian murder gang and rank hypocrisy .If you find that distasteful then that is your choice.

  • tacapall

    Nothing like a bit of warmongering and killing to get re-elected

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/pomegranate/2012/11/israel-and-gaza-3

  • Mick Fealty

    Sub,

    You are both at the same game. I’m just giving you BOTH fair warning that if you cannot take the issue in hand for what it is without getting into your own little hatfield and mccoy gig, you can take it somewhere else. That is all.

    John,

    I note the optimistic noises now there seems to be a ceasefire agreement in place. I also note that Jeremy Bowen is not in the least optimistic it has the ingredients to work, which is some sort of political deal.

    Interesting that after initial suspicions the US seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on Eygpt’s role in policing the Sinai where a lot of the arms and the munitions that have been being pumped into Israel have been getting through…

  • John Ó Néill

    My fear over all this was partly based on my sister being refused entry to east Jerusalem at the weekend along with other human rights observers, all of whom had their visas revoked (some hadn’t even been issued) and were quickly dispatched back to their point of departure. The implication was that the IDF were preparing for a ground invasion of Gaza and potential backlash in the West Bank and Jerusalem and clearing the pitch of any unwelcome bystanders.

    If the premise at the end of the original post is correct, I presume the political opinion polls in Israel may be a reasonable guide to whether this will last in the short term.

  • GavBelfast

    Why is it like there is almost a reflex action in many posters here to take sides on this conflict, and indeed many conflict situations, but especially this one, nearly always in the way that a person’s ‘tribe’ here should?

    I feel the same sympathy for a child who is the victim of a rocket attack from Israel, as I do for a child on a bus in Tel Aviv who is a victim of a Hamas bus-bombing.

    While so many on both sides feel that those on the other are sub-human, ceasefires are surely just a pause in this seemingly intractable conflict?

  • Barnshee

    “While so many on both sides feel that those on the other are sub-human, ceasefires are surely just a pause in this seemingly intractable conflict?”

    The Palestinians (in my view foolishly) cuddled up to the IRA producing the reflex reaction in NI for some of the prods to adopt Israel-

    A situation which on –humanitarian grounds alone ((IGNORE JUSTICE FOR A MOMENT ONLY) should produce support from everyone and sympathy for Palestine then falls victim to the sectarian divide.

    Now add in the facts of the imposition of Israel on the Palestinians in 1947 and since then, the endless theft of land, water and the murder of men woman and children for having the temerity to resist this theft.

    Given the history of Palestine it is an indictment of N Ireland that sectarian divide blurs and distorts the facts and fails to recognise the truth on the ground.Shame on you

    Simple questions for those excusing Israel

    Why are all those people living in Gaza -where did they come from ?

  • Neil

    I feel the same sympathy for a child who is the victim of a rocket attack from Israel, as I do for a child on a bus in Tel Aviv who is a victim of a Hamas bus-bombing.

    Likewise, of course. But then there as so many more Palestinian victims, so for me much more sympathy goes to the Palestinians.

    Then of course you have the disparity of military might, Gaza (as mentioned) is sometimes considered as a state under Palestinian control, but that’s just bullshit. They can’t defend themselves in any way, they have Israeli soldiers on Gazan soil regularly and Israeli drones in Gazan airspace – airspace the Palestinians have no access to thanks to the Israeli destruction of their only airport. All of these things would be a pretext for war under international law, but in this case that can’t happen as the Israelis won’t allow Palestinians to import weapons, food, concrete or fuel.

    The abused becomes the abuser.

  • Alias

    “Why are all those people living in Gaza -where did they come from ?”

    Good question. There were 550 people living in Gaza in 1918 according to British records – half of them were Jews and other half were Christians, with no Muslims at all.

    So-called ‘Gazans’ are a recently and expediently invented ‘nation’ as are the less recently (post WW2) but no less expediently invented so-called Palestinians.

    In 1920 when the British took control of the territory from the Ottoman Turks there were less than 10,000 Muslim Arabs in it. In 1914, the population was 40,000 Jews, 10,900 Christian Arabs, and a mere 8,000 Muslim Arabs (Jerusalem: Illustrated History Atlas by Martin Gilbert). There were, of course, no Palestinians since that is a word that was invented by the British.

    By 1940, the number of Muslim Arabs had spiked to 40,000. These were economic immigrants who came in search of employment created by the British and Muslims who came out of a religious duty stipulated in the Quran that compels Muslims to seize land from non-Muslims.

    Since WW2, millions more economic immigrants came in search of employment created by Israel and in search of the grants and subventions offered to by various international organisations.

    Some folks might suspect it is a profoundly anti-Zionist agenda for folks to have expediently invented a nation for the express purpose of attempting to deny Jews ownership of their homeland. As to whether it is also an anti-Semitic agenda, that depends on whether anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism by covert means. But then again, folks in the West don’t really hate Jews (despite their history of persecuting them): they just hate their right to self-determination…

  • galloglaigh

    Given the discrimination that exists in Israel, against non Jews, those immigrants and their descendants will probably wish they’d gone elsewhere.

    Given that ‘Palestinian’ is a made up word, is Israeli? Given that that state is as new as the invented ‘Palestinian’ nation.

    Just remember, that in 1800, Belfast had 20,000 people. By the trun of the next century, the numbers were quite different.

    But then again, folks in the West don’t really hate ‘Palestinians’ (despite their history of persecuting them): they just hate their right to self-determination…

  • Alias

    I can see why you are a stooge for the ‘Palestinians’ – after all, excluding the motorcycles, what is the difference between them and your favourite murder gang?

  • Neil

    Anyone who wishes to debunk Alias’ utter nonsense can have a read at these:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Palestinian_exodus

    Where one can find easily enough information provided by that non anonymous commentor the United Nations regarding the numbers:

    726,000 according to the Final Report of the United Nations Economic Survey Mission for the Middle East published by the United Nations Conciliation Commission, December 28, 1949

    And compare to Alias amusing:

    By 1940, the number of Muslim Arabs had spiked to 40,000.

    Think I’ll go with the UN report Alias, if that is your real name.

    Only out by nearly 1000% there Alias. The remainder can be debunked fairly easily could one be remotely bothered.

  • Neil

    Might that little snipe be directed at me? Stooge you say? Might you like to declare an interest in this argument Alias? Are you, I dunno, a conscientious objector Palestinian maybe?Or an Israeli?

    You see to my mind the word stooge, it’s like someone who has an axe to grind, who’s prepared to the dirty work. Not I. And try to keep the insults out of it will ya? I don’t like being called names by anyone.

    Finally, kindly repost or point me to my comment where I declare my support for an armed murder gang. Your support for such can be seen on this page.

  • Alias

    You’re conflating that figure with your vastly inflated figure for the number of Arabs living in the wider region. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine gave a figure of 472,000 refuges for the wider region.

    “…if that is your real name.”

    I can confirm that is indeed the name on my birth certifcate.

    And as Winston Churchill noted in 1939 that “far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied till their population has increased more than even all world Jewry could lift up the Jewish population.”

    He, of course, did not mention “Palestinians” since no nation existed then, just as no mention of such a name exists in British records or any other records.


    The name “Palestina” is a Latin-Roman name based on the Hebrew Biblical name of the ancient “Philistines” — “Plishtim” in Hebrew. The translation of this name to English is: “invaders”. The Philistines arrived from the Mediterranean islands near Greece and invaded the land about 4000 years ago . The Philistines are extinct since approximately 2000 years ago, and have no ancestral or historical relationship to Arabs. Before 1917, during the 400-years rule of the Ottoman empire, the Ottomans did not call the Holy Land “Palestina”. The British decided to renew this ancient name and called the land “Palestine”. The local Arabs never called themselves “Palestinians”, not even during the British mandate. Both Arab and British leaders referred to them only as “Arabs”. For example: The Hope-Simpson report[15] published by the British in 1930, contains the phrase “the number of Palestinian unemployed, whether Arab, Jew or other…”. “Palestinian” was used only as an adjective in reference to the location and also included Jews. The Arab inhabitants were always referred to as “Arabs”. The word “palestinians” does not appear anywhere in this report. “Palestinian Arabs”, “Palestinian Jews”, and “Palestinian Christians” were common terms. But, “Palestinians”, as a noun, before 1948, was not yet invented.

    After 30 years of invasion, following the end of the British mandate and the declaration of the state of Israel in 1948, the Arabs recognized the fact that they invaded foreign land and invented for themselves a name in English — “Palestinians”. If the British were to call the land “New England”, and the local Arabs were to call themselves “English” would they automatically become English? It is important to emphasize that the concept of a “Palestinian” to describe the local Arab residents was invented by the Arabs AFTER the declaration of the state of Israel. This group of Arabs, who started calling themselves “the Palestinian nation” after 1948, does not have an original name in their native Arabic language.

    Is there any nation in the world which does not have a name in its original native language? The Arabs who invaded the Holy Land do not have a name in their native Arabic language because they are not, and have never been, a unified group or a nation. Most of those Arabs cannot even pronounce the word “Palestinian”. They pronounce it “Falestinian”.

    Historically, a “Falestinian” people never existed. The fact is that the Arabs, who now try to call themselves by the English name “Palestinians” and mis-pronounce it “Falestinians”, don’t even know what their name is in Arabic. Even Arab leaders and historians have admitted that a “Palestinian” people never existed. For example:

    • In 1937, the Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul Hadi told the Peel Commission: “There is no such country as Palestine. Palestine is a term the Zionists invented. Palestine is alien to us.”
    • In 1946, Princeton’s Arab professor of Middle East history, Philip Hitti, told the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry: “It’s common knowledge, there is no such thing as Palestine in history.”
    • In March 1977, Zahir Muhsein, an executive member of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO), said in an interview to the Dutch newspaper Trouw: “The ‘Palestinian people’ does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel.”
    • Joseph Farah, an Arab-American journalist, writes: “The truth is that Palestine is no more real than Never-Never Land. Palestine has never existed as an autonomous entity.”
    • Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist acknowledged the lie he was fighting for: “Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? … we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians. They removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag.”
    • The Syrian dictator Hafez Assad said: “There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity”.
    • Dr. Azmi Bishara, a notable leader of the Arabs in Israel, who fought against the Israeli “occupation”, said in a TV interview[20]: “There is no Palestinian nation. It’s a colonial invention. When were there any Palestinians?”

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Alias,

    All very interesting but you don’t have to go very far back in time until there was no (unitary) country called Germany, Italy, USA, Uganda, Nigeria, Indonesia etc so of what relevance is it?
    Are you arguing that there should not be a Palestinian State alongside a secure Israeli State?

  • galloglaigh

    A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine

    Was that before it was ‘made up’? Or have you just shit on your own argument?

    your favourite murder gang

    Care to expand on that statement? A grunt from the sidelines is a grunt from the sidelines, no matter which village idiot grunted it!

    p.s. Your wee graph looks the same as the one in my daughter’s homework tonight :)

  • galloglaigh

    There are birds in the Amazon that have more right to a piece of land, than Arabs in Palestine…

  • galloglaigh

    Alias

    He, of course, did not mention “Palestinians” since no nation existed then, just as no mention of such a name exists in British records or any other records

    Meanwhile back in the real world, rewind the clock back to 1916, and Thomas E. Lawrence is becoming a renowned army officer during the Sinai and Palestine Campaign.

    I guess it’s a good job for your myth that he wasn’t Christened Lawrence of Palestine.

    Do you think it would be plausible to suggest, that Lawrence hooked up with Marty McFly and the Doc at any stage? If Palestine hadn’t been ‘invented’ in 1916, then how did they know it was Palestine?

  • galloglaigh

    It’s funny too, that when Mister Henry Poole wrote his article in The Journal of the Royal Geographical Society, describing funnily enough, his ‘Journey in Palestine’ (p.p. 54-70ish) he also had a map. Funny that.

    Would it be fair to suggest that Dr. Who was about there at the same time? Or maybe Bill and Ted?

  • galloglaigh

    *The Journal of the Royal Geographical Society 1856