McGuinness: “We can’t have a half-baked approach…”

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Whilst the Northern Ireland deputy First Minister, Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness, has been urging co-operation with the police investigation of the murder of David Black, his party colleague Gerry Kelly has complained of “politically motivated” charges against Padraic Wilson - relating to the aftermath of the 2005 murder of Robert McCartney.  From the UTV report

Sinn Féin MLAs Gerry Kelly and Sue Ramsey were among party members in the public gallery during the court case.

Mr Kelly has demanded the immediate release of Padraic Wilson, calling the charge against him “bizarre”.

He said: “It is my firm view that these charges are politically motivated and driven by an old agenda within the PSNI fighting against policing change.”

“Those behind this agenda need to be removed from policing before they inflict further damage on the peace process. This is not about bringing the killers of Robert McCartney to justice. It is in fact the opposite.”

It’s not the only recent case in which similar charges have been brought against Sinn Fein’s “director of international affairs”, but I don’t recall Gerry Kelly issuing a statement in that case.

And, despite Sinn Féin’s protests, if the charges are correct – that Padraic Wilson was a member of the Provisional IRA army council at the time – then he would be in a position to know who the PIRA mistakenly offered to shoot in 2005 for being “directly involved in the killing of Robert McCartney” – after their own “internal disciplinary proceedings” - and why.

[Due process? - Ed]  Indeed.

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  • Better Together

    Pete

    Yet more equivocation from SF on the rule of law. Just when one thought the securocrats had been safely consigned to history, they creep out from under the bed again to meddle in the peace process….

  • Comrade Stalin

    I think our political class in general aren’t that consistent when it comes to the law.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    GK: “.. these charges are politically motivated and driven by an old agenda within the PSNI fighting against policing change.”

    The charges are brought by the (politically motivated?) Public Prosecution Service:

    The PPS is the principal prosecuting authority in Northern Ireland. In addition to taking decisions as to prosecution in cases investigated by the police in Northern Ireland, it also considers cases investigated by other statutory authorities, such as HM Revenue and Customs.

    Has the PPS indicated which authority or authorities have participated in the investigation?

  • Better Together

    Calling for the release of those charged with terrorist offences, to be fair, is not associated with the DUP, UUP or Alliance and formerly the SDLP.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    The shinners would do well to “grow up”! Gerry kelly is in “a time warp”. He needs to “start doing grown up politics”.

    The shinners need to stop talking out of both sides of of their mouths, and get with the programme.

    Opposition to police arresting IRA members is not an optional choice, it must be a leadership imperative to support the police.

  • Henry94

    Support for the police does not mean exempting the police from criticism. If I see someone breaking into a house and call the police it doesn’t mean I can’t object if they shoot him without warning.

  • tacapall

    What is your point Pete in the headlines above ? One law for one and another for someone else ?

    “He said: “It is my firm view that these charges are politically motivated and driven by an old agenda within the PSNI fighting against policing change”

    Are the words above not true ? Can you sit comfortably in your ivory tower and ignore the elephant in the room of collusion by the state in the murder of its own citizens yet no prosecutions or even an attempt to bring those “rotten apples” to justice.

    “Yet more equivocation from SF on the rule of law. Just when one thought the securocrats had been safely consigned to history”

    Can most of the political parties including the PSNI not be accused of being equivocal when it come to the rule of law.

    http://www.nuzhound.com/articles/irish_news/arts2007/jun27_whistleblower_call_prosecutions.php

    A former RUC ‘whistleblower’ has criticised a decision not to prosecute 20 policemen and soldiers who had previously been identified by Sir John Stevens as having been involved in collusion with loyalist paramilitaries.

    Former RUC detective Trevor McIlwrath was central in exposing the two biggest collusion cases in Northern Ireland over the past 30 years.

    In October 1991 the former detective listened to loyalist Ken Barrett as he confessed to the murder of solicitor Pat Finucane.

    However, Mr McIlwrath and his CID colleague Johnston Brown were blocked by Special Branch from charging Barrett with the murder.

    Two years later the two detectives found themselves in similar circumstances when UVF killer Mark Haddock confessed to the murder of Catholic woman Sharon McKenna.

    Again Special Branch blocked Mr Brown and Mr McIlwrath from charging Haddock with murder.

    Over the next 14 years Special Branch protected Haddock from prosecution, despite involvement in more than a dozen murders.

    “Sir John Stevens was the most senior police officer in the whole of Britain and he believed he had provided the PPS with enough evidence to prove that these people were involved in collusion.

  • galloglaigh

    Indeed Tac, for someone to say the DUP or UUP don’t interfere is misguided. Sure they don’t want Soldiers or Branch men in the dock. So what’s the difference between SF talking out of both sides of their mouth, and the DUP/UUP/TUV doing likewise?

    And of course the SDLP have been calling for the release of Marion Price.

    That leaves us with the Alliance Party.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “McGuinness: “We can’t have a half-baked approach…””

    McGuinness was making a different if half-baked point; he was attempting to set the murder (and the political process) in an ‘island of Ireland’ context:

    “This is a 32-county problem and can only be dealt with by the PSNI and Garda.

    “I believe that there is a duty and a responsibility on every citizen who supports the peace process to give every support to the Garda and the PSNI for the apprehension of those who were responsible for the murder of David Black.

    “We can’t have a half-baked approach to people who wish to destroy everything that has been built up over the last 15 years.”

    These ‘problems’ are also being dealt with by G2, MI5 and MI6 – the Ireland and UK ‘securocrats’. How can he have overlooked or forgotten their roles so easily? His approach would come rather unstuck should those currently using violence to advance political ends strike across the Irish Sea.

  • tacapall

    “The PPS is expecting victims’ families to believe they could not identify the senior police officers who allowed guns to be handed back to the UDA”

    Unbelievably one of those guns handed back being used in 7 murders.

    “It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to work out who gave the orders to give these weapons back to the UDA.

    Mr McIlwrath called on the PPS to allow the victims’ families legal representatives to study the evidence not to prosecute.

    If the PPS is supposed to be open and transparent then they should allow these families to see the evidence on which they decided not to prosecute,” he said.

    Otherwise people are just going to think this is another cover-up.”

    Indeed Galloglaigh were is the political outrage from within political circles especially Unionism, where is the calls from those same hypocrites on the floor of the assembly for justice for those victims of state collusion in the murder of their loved ones, where is the offering of money for private prosecutions for the victims families.

  • Alias

    “These ‘problems’ are also being dealt with by G2, MI5 and MI6 – the Ireland and UK ‘securocrats’. How can he have overlooked or forgotten their roles so easily?”

    True, and if the position of “director of international affairs” (getting all foreign voices to sing from the same Whitehall hymn sheet) was important enough to be entrusted to a British agent last time (Denis Donaldson), the odds are that Mr Wilson doesn’t have much to worry about.

  • tacapall

    I would agree with that Alias but somehow cant get my head around the possibility of political blackmail being pursued, Its sort of making people take their eye off the ball while deals are being made re the Patrick Finucane murder review.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    “The cowards who gunned down prison officer David Black got a slap on wrists from the Sinn Fein leader, writes Eilis O’Hanlon

    ‘SINN Fein slams prison officer’s assassins’ ran the stirring headline in the Belfast Telegraph. Unfortunately, it belonged more in a work of fiction than a newspaper.

    When Shinners slam, they don’t hold back. Mary Lou McDonald in the Dail eats government ministers for breakfast. Martin McGuinness chews up female RTE presenters and spits them out. Gerry Adams has spent a lifetime in the republican movement metaphorically mowing down those who oppose him with the machine gun fire of grandiloquent hyperbole”.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/adams-weak-rebuke-buoys-provo-fairy-tale-3281690.html

  • tacapall

    “On the other, there was Sinn Fein demanding the release of Padraic Wilson, former head of IRA prisoners in the Maze, who has been arrested in connection with the murder of Robert McCartney outside a bar in Belfast city centre in 2002″

    Nothing like a bit of hyperbole when over indulging in food for thought. Eilish is well known for her bluntness and not missing the target when it comes to Sinn Fein but Padraic Wilson was not arrested in connection with the murder of Robert McCartney, he was arrested and charged with IRA membership.

  • Better Together

    Henry94

    In that case you would be a witness to a crime. In this case, Sinn Féin are making sub judice remarks about an ongoing investigation. Maybe it is because Wilson is part of the “good IRA” not the “bad IRA”.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Tac, “Padraic Wilson was not arrested in connection with the murder of Robert McCartney, he was arrested and charged with IRA membership”.

    Not wishing to split hairs, but Padraic Wilson a shinner and member of the IRA army council, was carrying out an internal investigation into the members of the IRA/Sinn Fein, that were in McGuinness’ pub the night Robert McCartney was murdered???

    If that is not in connection with the Robert McCartney murder can you define what it is???

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Padraic Wilson, was carrying out an internal IRA/Sinn Fein investigation into the murder of Robert McCartney, is it not likely that he may also be charged with perverting the course of justice???

    In fact what right have the IRA/Sinn Fein to carry out an investigation into any murder or any criminal activity, they are not the police. That begs the question did shinner and IRA army council member Padraic Wilson had over to the PSNI any or all of the information he gathered about the Sinn Fein/IRA murder of Robert McCartney???

    Is this what Declan Kearney means with his speech, entitled national reconciliation in Ireland – the need for uncomfortable conversations, also examined how to deal with the legacy of the past.

  • Politico68

    Eilish has had a boner for GA and SF for as long as I can remember and is the most experienced journalist …ha! Cough ! in the Indabimbo news network when it comes to twisting chewing gum into candy floss. She and many others cannot stand the peace on the streets simply because they cannot fill pages of their rags with tragedy and drama, so the best thing to do is? Yes, just make it up. The Sindobimbo and the daily Indabimbo are about as truthful and professional as Adolf Hitler was kind and understanding. Eilish is simply throwing her toys out of the pram cos she cant belive that SF are doing a good job North or South and growing their support base. She is probably hoping that her years of hysterical dramatics and bias exagerations will earn her a cushy number in the senate (Like her buddy Eoghan managed to do) from the Government when she eventually cops on and retires from ..uh eh journalism?? In the meantime Eilish I am sure Lady Tony will pat ur head and help u calm down.

  • tacapall

    AU lets not split hairs, Padraic Wilson was charged with charges of IRA membership and two counts of addressing a meeting to encourage support for the outlawed grouping.

    “In fact what right have the IRA/Sinn Fein to carry out an investigation into any murder or any criminal activity”

    We can say the same thing about the Orange Order in relation to the breaking of the law regarding bandsmembers and supporters outside St Patricks church.

    “Is this what Declan Kearney means with his speech, entitled national reconciliation in Ireland – the need for uncomfortable conversations, also examined how to deal with the legacy of the past.”

    Is this any different -

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/david-cameron-accused-of-pat-finucane-death-probe-uturn-16064101.html

    Mrs Finucane said: “Not only were my family and I forced to listen to the Prime Minister of Britain renege on a promise made by the British Government, we had to hear him tell us, over and over, what it was that we really wanted, how we wanted to achieve it and what our ultimate response would be.

    “It was clear within minutes that we had been lured to Downing Street under false pretences by a disreputable Government led by a dishonourable man.”

    http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/news/content/view/full/125618

    “The family of murdered Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane hit out today at the government’s announcement that a report into the infamous killing is to be vetted by the very security services who allegedly colluded in it.

    Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers said the report, by Sir Desmond de Silva QC, would be checked by security chiefs before publication to rule out the chance of any national security breaches.

    Ms Villiers said some highly sensitive material provided by the government to Mr de Silva would not be contained in the final document due to concerns over the potential identification of sources.

    Prime Minister David Cameron has officially acknowledged that the state colluded in Mr Finucane’s murder but stopped short of announcing an inquiry, instead commissioning “an independent review” by Mr de Silva.”

    No-one holds the moral high ground when it comes to the past AU, but this cherry picking of prosecutions seems a bit one sided, I dont support or vote Sinn Fein but I do agree that if justice is going to be enforced for past misdeeds it should be for all, no-one should be above the law especially for former or still serving police officers who were involved in numerous murders but are being protected by the British government and Unionist politicians.

  • sectarianheadcount

    Come on folks, what’s your problem? It’s all very clear for Martin, Gerry et al:

    PIRA violence up to 2005 – fine and legitimate; no need for the PSNI to poke their noses in; perpetrators of savage violence were all pro peace process, so why should they be troubled?

    RIRA violence – terrible, evil, savage, people without mandate (unlike PIRA’s war on behalf of the Irish people); duty to call the PSNI immediately etc.

    How could such views possibly be called nauseatingly hypocritical?

  • Toastedpuffin

    “if justice is going to be enforced for past misdeeds it should be for all”

    So you think Republicans should come clean about their “comrades” involvement in murder, mutilation, bombing, child abuse, drug dealing, sectarian intimidation, smuggling, money laundering, etc etc???

    Brilliant, especially from one of the Cult itself!!!

    Who’s going to start then? Hmm?

  • galloglaigh

    Tp

    Do you think the British govt. should own up to its past?

    And not just in Ireland, but across the Globe?

  • Toastedpuffin

    Yes, of course.

    Do you think the Republican Movement should come clean about its past?

  • galloglaigh

    Of course. But it needs to be a joint declaration, including the DUP and UUP also.

  • Toastedpuffin

    Of course it doesn’t. There are legitimate legal avenues to adopt, so adopt them. Either it’s the right thing to do, or it isn’t. This diseased ideology that constantly has its eye on tactics needs a rest, a permanent rest.

    The people who lost loved ones, were mutilated, or had their minds wrecked by violent acts need justice, not more bloody choreography.

  • galloglaigh

    OK Tp, who do you suggest should make the first move? No party or group will give information, in the knowledge that their opponents will use it to crucify them. In order for the truth to come out, it has to be choreographed. At least to some extent.

    Don’t kid yourself for one moment, that the DUP or the UUP, never mind the British govt., will admit to any wrong doing voluntarily. Look at the Saville report ffs. They knew their unjustified, and unjustifiable murderous attack on Derry was wrong. They knew the Widgery report was a whitewash. They could have held their hands up 40 years ago, and saved the families a lot of effort. But hey, that’s good old British democracy for you!

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Tac , Do you want me to start split hairs. Your equating the breaking of a parades commission determination to an IRA/Sinn Fein investigation into a murder carried out by members of the IRA/Sinn Fein???

    Seems the leading shinner and IRA man has form when it comes to involving himself in criminal cases.

    “Padraig Wilson was soon back at the heart of the IRA, that is if the Colombians, British and Americans are to be believed. Some two years before Padraig Wilson’s release from jail, the IRA had begun a ‘cash-for-know-how’ relationship with the FARC guerrilla movement in Colombia in which the IRA allegedly passed on their skills in the manufacture and delivery of home made bombs and mortars to FARC which in return paid the IRA handsomely with large amounts of cash. The money, it is claimed, came from FARC’s dealings in the cocaine trade”.

    The Daily Telegraph made Wilson’s involvement in all this public in a May 2002 report written by the redoubtable Toby Harnden, author of the classic study of the IRA in South Armagh, Bandit Country. Describing Wilson as a “senior IRA leader and key ally of Gerry Adams”, Harnden, quoting Colombian, British and American sources in his report, said Wilson had traveled to Colombia using a false passport in April 2001, less than two years after his release from the Maze.

    The report continued:

    “Colombian intelligence documents say that Wilson entered Bogota, the capital, on Air France flight 422 on April 5 last year and flew on by Satena Airlines to San Vicente del Caguan in Farc territory. There he was met by guerrilla leaders. He returned to Paris on April 16 by the same route.

    “A copy of an Irish passport bearing the name James Edward Walker and a photograph of Wilson has been passed to The Telegraph by Colombian intelligence”.

    “Wilson was accompanied on the flights by Niall Connolly, Sinn Fein’s representative in Cuba. Connolly, Monaghan and Martin McCauley were arrested on Aug 11 last year as they tried to leave Bogota for Paris.

    “They are alleged to be leading IRA members and are in jail awaiting trial on charges of training Farc terrorists.

    “The presence of such a high-ranking IRA man as Wilson in Colombia is powerful evidence that training activities were authorised by the terrorist group’s top leadership.

    “A surveillance photograph of Wilson taken at San Vicente del Caguan airport was shown by the Colombian authorities at a House international relations committee hearing in Washington last month. Wilson, a former Sinn Fein worker, is a strong supporter and friend of Mr Adams, the president of Sinn Fein.”

    For whatever reason Padraig Wilson escaped arrest in Colombia and returned back to Belfast where he continued to undertake delicate missions for the Sinn Fein and IRA leaderships, monitoring in particular possible media stories that could damage the likes of Gerry Adams. His official role in Sinn Fein was director of international affairs, a job once undertaken by Ted Howell who was perhaps the most important backroom Provo figure of this current leadership.

    “If the PSNI are to be believed, Padraig Wilson’s delicate diplomacy included intervening on the IRA’s behalf in a notorious rape case. That involved allegations from a close relative of the late Joe Cahill that she had been repeatedly assaulted by a senior IRA figure in West Belfast for many years while being forced to take part in an IRA “investigation” that was primarily concerned with discrediting her allegations. In mid October this year a judge in Belfast lifted reporting restrictions on the identities of people charged in connection with the affair. Amongst those charged with IRA membership and assisting in the management of an IRA meeting was Padraig Wilson.

    “The charges leveled against him last week in relation to the Robert McCartney killing are remarkably and perhaps significantly similar: IRA membership and addressing a meeting “to encourage support for the IRA”. A PSNI detective told the court that Robert McCartney’s five sisters and his partner had made witness statements accusing him of involvement in an IRA investigation following McCartney’s death”.

    You can read the rest here:

    http://thebrokenelbow.com/2012/11/03/the-arrest-of-padraig-wilson-some-thoughts-some-questions/

  • Toastedpuffin

    “They knew their unjustified, and unjustifiable murderous attack on Derry was wrong.”

    Which is presumably why the British Govt offered a full apology and exoneration of all before the Good Friday Agreement – but the Irish govt refused this offer, preferring to go for what became the Saville report. Interesting, eh?

    Also interesting is the fact we’re still waiting for Republicans to come clean regarding their violence that day. So much for choreography, eh?

    Your attitude is typical of the malignant pragmatism that drives Republicanism. It isn’t driven my any moral code, it’s just a urge to self-perpetuation.

  • galloglaigh

    Which is presumably why the British Govt offered a full apology and exoneration of all before the Good Friday Agreement

    But what about convictions? Surely if Padraig Wilson should face the courts, then so should Derek Wilford and soldier ‘F’. That is being blocked by the British govt. and N.Ireland’s unionist political leaders. Therein lies the problem for me and many republicans: The British security forces and slipping through the net. Where’s the justice in that?

    I think you’ll also find, that many republicans gave their evidence to that tribunal. Some didn’t, but in fairness unionists can’t cry about that, given a certain unionist politicians sudden memory lapse, and the lies told by the soldiers and the MOD . Thus giving my point credence: who starts the process? Or should it be a joint process?

  • galloglaigh

    Your own attitude is typical of the malignant pragmatism that drives unionism. So does that make us both wrong just because we both agree on each other’s credentials?

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    When is Padraig Wilson this leading IRA/Sinn Fein member going to have his licence revoked and spend the rest of his original 24 year sentence for bombing???

    Being arrested for IRA membership is obviously grounds for the Secretary of State to revoke his release on licence???

  • galloglaigh

    AU

    What about the OO’s friends in the UVF? Should they have their licences revoked? You know the people, what’s your view, setting aside your affiliations?

  • Toastedpuffin

    Yes, calling for justice, how pragmatic of me…

    “But what about convictions?”

    Again, of course there should be trials, and ideally convictions where people have been illegally killed. We’re into bleedin obvious territory here.

    “Therein lies the problem for me and many republicans: The British security forces and slipping through the net”

    So you missed the fact that martin McGuinnes was named as having discharged an illegallly held machine gun in an attempt to kill or main soldiers on Bloody Sunday but hasn’t been arrested??? And speaking of Marty slipping through the net, has his memory improved any on that other net-avoider, Fr Chesney? Allowed to slip through the net couresey of the British government, no less. That blind eye of yours is working a treat.

    It seems to be working well on the issue of why Gerry Adams has been publicly named as having been critically involved in abduction and murder, yet again, so arrest…

  • tacapall

    “Brilliant, especially from one of the Cult itself”

    Is that labeled at myself TP ?

    “So you think Republicans should come clean about their “comrades” involvement in murder, mutilation, bombing, child abuse, drug dealing, sectarian intimidation, smuggling, money laundering, etc etc”

    Without a general amnesty I dont expect they will, who in their right mind is going to come forward with the truth and end up going to prison.

    “Padraig Wilson was soon back at the heart of the IRA, that is if the Colombians, British and Americans are to be believed”

    Sounds like the IRA’s very own James Bond if we are to believe all you’ve posted AU. Im not saying its not possible but it just sounds like the type of stuff you only see in films. I wouldn’t take any lectures off the British government about criminality or who’s a terrorist and who’s not. -

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html

    “A new study has found that at various times the British have invaded almost 90 per cent of the countries around the globe.

    The analysis of the histories of the almost 200 countries in the world found only 22 which have never experienced an invasion by the British” even Iceland got a mention -

    Iceland, invaded in 1940 by the British after the neutral nation refused to enter the war on the Allies side. The invasion force, of 745 marines, met with strong protest from the Iceland government, but no resistance.”

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Gall, “What about”. Who do you refer to???

  • galloglaigh

    So you missed the fact that martin McGuinnes was named as having discharged an illegallly held machine gun in an attempt to kill or main soldiers on Bloody Sunday

    Where’d ye read that? The Beano?

    That is a complete and utter misrepresentation of Saville’s report.

    Try harder Tp, you’re making yourself look foolish. I’d expect that from DDB or HG, but you?

  • galloglaigh

    You know exactly who I’m referring to AU. Enough said, your affiliation to terrorists gives you no justification to criticise other terrorists, or suspected terrorists.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “Without a general amnesty I dont expect they will”

    Who mentioned amnesty? Not you, and not me. We were agreed on the need for justice, or so I thought. Don’t tell me you’re backtracking already. That epiphany didn’t last long.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Tac, Gerry and Marty have been telling evey one for years that anybody who has information on crimes and criminality must tell the PSNI.

    Seems like Padraig Wilson this leading IRA/Sinn Fein member can unburden himself with the findings of this IRA/Sinn Fein investigation into the Robert McCartney murder. It might go as mitigation in his court case.

    But that doesn’t take away from the fact that he should have his licence revoked now.

  • galloglaigh

    What is it they say about turkeys voting for Christmas?

  • Toastedpuffin

    galloglaigh, I’ve noticed your posts are somewhat short of content…

    The Saville report names McGuinness as having been directing illegal paramilitary activity on Bloody Sunday, as having been in possession of an illegally held machine gun, and possibly having discharged it on the day (perhaps to have scared off pigeons, who knows, he hasn’t told us, has he?).

    Now, I’ve stated that the soldiers should be held liable before a court of law, lets hear from a devotee of the Cult that Republicans should stand trial for their crimes, hmm? Don’t you think the examples I’ve given of allegations of serious, indeed fatal, lawbreaking should result in convictions, and it’s rather strange that they haven’t been acted upon by the authorities?

    What’s stopping you? Don’t you get paid if you criticise your Masters online or something? My advice would be to apply for another job.

  • tacapall

    TP thats just an opinion, reality in fact, but not something I neccessarily agree with. Nevertheless what we have now is simply the state covering up its own misdeeds while pursuing others for theirs. If former members of the RUC or serving members of the PSNI are going to be exempt from prosecution then everyone should.

  • galloglaigh

    Again, you’re misrepresenting the findings of Saville’s report. McGuinness, according to the report, was “probably armed with a Thompson submachine gun”. Probably doesn’t mean anything other than probably. Nowhere in the report does it say McGuinness discharged any weapons on Bloody Sunday. In fact the report does not claim anywhere, that the Provos fired any weapons. The Official IRA did fire shots, but the Paras fired first at unarmed civilians.

    Again, if your going to make a statement, make sure it stands up to scrutiny. While my comments are short of content, your own comments are short of facts.

    Again: Please try harder to put your point across using empirical evidence, and not unionist innuendo!

  • galloglaigh

    P.S. I don’t have political masters, I’m a member of no political organisation, and never have been…

  • Alias

    “PIRA violence up to 2005 – fine and legitimate; no need for the PSNI to poke their noses in; perpetrators of savage violence were all pro peace process, so why should they be troubled?

    RIRA violence – terrible, evil, savage, people without mandate (unlike PIRA’s war on behalf of the Irish people); duty to call the PSNI immediately etc.” – sectarianheadcount

    Brilliant comment that perfectly illustrates another “half-baked” approach.

    There is one very popular theory that the head of PIRA’s Northern Command was able to slash open the torsos of two members of the general public in a crowded bar without legal reprecussions because the patrons were too afraid of receiving the same treatment if they, as McGuinness urged folks to do in other cases of murder, co-operated with the PSNI but there is another theory the OC of PIRA’s Northern Command is a protected tout and that is why no legal reprecussions were forthcoming:

    The IRA attackers were led by Jock Davison, the ‘Officer Commanding’ the IRA’s Northern Command and a one time high ranking Special Branch informant.

    His uncle, Freddie Scappaticci was the British Army’s most high ranking agent inside the Provisional’s who was unmasked as ‘Stakeknife.’

    It is standard practice for one agent to ‘vouch’ for another. When one is exposed, standard counterintelligence practice is also to look closely at who the exposed agent has vouched for. Given that most of the top Shinners are touts, they ignore best practice and party…

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    “P.S. I don’t have political masters, I’m a member of no political organisation, and never have been”…

    Yet galloglaigh you can throw an accusations around like confetti “your affiliation to terrorists gives you no justification to criticise other terrorists, or suspected terrorists”.

    You need to substantiate your statement above.

    You still haven’t named the Loyalists and what they did to have their licences revoked???

  • galloglaigh

    AU

    There are five things in life I have to do:

    Eat

    Shite

    Sleep

    Pro-create

    And die

    One thing I don’t have to do, is justify myself to an Orangeman!

  • tacapall

    “because the patrons were too afraid of receiving the same treatment”

    Totally agree Alias the paramilitaries were hiding places for pyscopaths and sexual predators but the more you find out about this part of the world the more you realise the same people are in The police, Army, Government, Curch, Care homes, hospitals fkg everywhere, the common thing being weild some form of fear we see it all round the world, the BBC and Jimmy Saville being a recent case, wasn’t it John Stevens who recieved death threats while investigating collusion by the RUC with loyalist paramilitaries.

    As for all the rest, old news, just like the Mull of Kintyre helecopter crash, the truth will be outed someday.

    “the men onboard that Chinook would take to their graves many dark secrets about Britain’s “dirty war” operations, including how British forces colluded with Protestant loyalist death squads. These proxy death squads were armed and instructed by British Intelligence and are believed to have carried out over 300 murders of republicans and ordinary Catholics during the course of the 1969-1994 conflict – nearly 10 per cent of the total number of dead. Also, as Kennedy notes about the personnel onboard the Chinook: “These men dedicated their lives to fighting the IRA. They were not going to give up on their missions easily. From the British government point of view, they would have been viewed as an obstacle to the peace process it was trying to initiate. They were military men, not politicians.”

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    galloglaigh, again with an unfounded accusation and personal attack.

    The more you post the more irrelevant you become and Jesus wept.

  • galloglaigh

    AU

    My relevance to you is irrelevant to me!

  • Toastedpuffin

    galloglaich,

    If I’d probably been armed with a machine gun, I’d probably expect the police to probably knock on my door, especially if an inquiry found that “it is possible that he fired this weapon”.

    No no arrest. He’s slipped through the net, to use your phrase. Yet you don’t appear to have any problem with this, nor the collusion that allowed the Claudy death squad to escape justice, nor the fact Adams hasn’t been questioned following the recent allegation surrounding his involvment in the murder of Jean McConville.

    Tribal loyalty isn’t something to be proud of. Just the opposite. It’s the kind of three-monkey mentality the Cult can expect from its drones, and as a result justice goes to hell.

  • galloglaigh

    You have outlined the reasons why we need truth, and truth from them all.

    I was probably a bad wee c**t when I was a wain. But my ma wouldn’t see it like that. So I probably was, while at the same time, I probably wasn’t.

    The possibility of McGuinness firing a weapon hasn’t been proven. It is a possibility, not a fact.

    Perhaps you should buy yourself a dictionary for Christmas?

    If McGuinness is guilty of anything, and evidence is there to suggest it, then he should face the same court that Derek Wilford and Soldier ‘F’ should face. But you cannot produce any evidence, only possibilities, probabilities, and innuendo.

    Again, please try harder!

  • Dixie Elliott

    You couldn’t make it up….

    http://twitpic.com/badjjt

    The Adamsites are protesting outside some of their own offices tomorrow calling for the release of Padraic Wilson.

    In cases like this it would be the norm to protest outside PSNI stations but being as McGuinness claimed that Policing and Justice was in their hands some over eager shinners likely decided to protest against themselves.

    Why don’t they protest outside the Policing Board as their leaders go inside to hold the PSNI to account?

    It wouldn’t be the first time that the grassroots protested outside a meeting while their leadership shook the hands of those they were protesting against.

  • Dixie Elliott

    Just seen a screenshot of a post on http://www.irishrepublican.ie where a shinner hiding under the name Tombo broke the reporting restriction on the naming of the victim in another case concerning Padraic Wilson.

    This is the type of cyber-bullying we read about concerning school kids but in this case there’s clearly a more sinister agenda afoot.

    Now we realise why so many victims remained silent while a powerful figure was still alive.

    I hope at least that the screenshot may be of use in publicly exposing the coward hiding behind the screen name Tombo.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Is this what is meant when Sinn Fein leaders, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness promised to put manners on the British police.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    A piece from the Tele, basically it reads you can’t arrest a leading IRA/shinner as they stopped the IRA/Sinn Fein from murdering innocent people.

    Why did the IRA/Sinn Fein feel the need for Padraic Wilson need to help the McCartney sisters in the first place???

    I thought IRA/Sinn Fein had bought into policing???

    As for those in IRA/Sinn Fein in the bar that night, they should have made statements on all the facts on the events of that night to the PSNI. Instead of running to solicitors and priests to make statements, then the facts would have be in the right hands to make arrests and obtain convictions, and IRA/Sinn Fein would not have needed Padraic Wilson to hold any type of illegal IRA/Sinn Fein investigation.

    Another thing I want to know, is when is his licence going to be revoked by the secretary of state??? So he can spend the rest of his 24 year sentence back in prison. He was after all released on licence not pardoned.

    “Mr Kelly said today that Wilson had supported the peace process and criticised an “old guard” within the police which he said was opposing change within that organisation.

    “Instead of dealing with the issue of the murder of Robert McCartney, seven years later we are now seeing that people who were trying to help are nevertheless being targeted,” he said.

    He added: “He is a long-standing activist who was in charge of prisoners. He is very much crucial to the peace process, bringing people along the political process as it developed.

    “This (detention) is politically motivated, they may as well put hundreds of people in jail.”

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-anger-over-padraic-wilson-arrest-16234099.html#ixzz2BMQXr5sl

  • Toastedpuffin

    “The possibility of McGuinness firing a weapon hasn’t been proven”

    Hence my wondering why this hasn’t been tested in a court, where it should be, and where I would expect it to be if he is subject to the same law as the rest of us. Claims he was armed with an illegally held firearm, together with a public inquiry agreeing that this was probably the case, and that he may even have used it, are considerably more than “innuendo”.

    He has, as you say, slipped through the net. But you choose to ignore this (and the rest) through tribal loyaly.

    Christ, this penny’s taking a wild long time to drop.

  • Toastedpuffin

    “In cases like this it would be the norm to protest outside PSNI stations ”

    Media reports suggest “100s” of Shinners gathered outside PSNI HQ at Knock. Wonder how much notice was given, and whether they checked with the locals if they were welcome…

  • Dixie Elliott

    It seems those were the meeting places for supporters to be bused to the protest….

    However, given that the majority of shinners are paid for their ‘loyalty’ and that buses were put on to carry them to the bush fire that was burning through Republicanism – according to Gerry the 2nd – the clip below wouldn’t even put the numbers above 150.

    More of a singed bush if you ask me….

    http://www.u.tv/News/Protest-at-IRA-charges-against-SF-member/a9b9aa7d-284c-4c7f-b033-62a17042bcb4

    The problem with SF is that they can’t quite accept that even though McGuinness made claims about the devolution of P&J, they don’t actually have any power over the PSNI nor the judicial system.

    The grassroots don’t, as yet, seem to have spotted the wielding line going all round the new car they were sold. It’s a case of cut and shut for SF.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Is the blocking of the main entrance into PSNI HQ not an act of civil disobedience???

  • andnowwhat

    ArdoyneUnionist (profile) 5 November 2012 at 9:53 pm
    Is the blocking of the main entrance into PSNI HQ not an act of civil disobedience???

    Thought unionists were all for that? Maybe Nelson will support them on his blog?

  • Red Lion

    the charge of ‘political policing’ happening on Chief Constable Matt Baggott’s watch is a major slur on Baggott’s leadership – will Gerry Kelly now be calling for Matt Bagott to resign as Baggot apparently presides over a police force that can’t keep itself sufficiently separated off from political interference in operational matters???

    where is Gerry Kelly’s evidence that ‘political policing’ has ocurred in P.Wilson’s case?? As far as i can see he hasn’t produced any evidence, just lazily bandied about the term ‘political policing’ in the press and turned up with the usual ‘concerned citizens’ rent-a-mob at Police HQ.

    Where is the presses scrutiny of Gerry Kelly’s claims of ‘political policing’ ?

    Let due process take hold.

  • ArdoyneUnionist

    Indeed and, it called a shared future, I would hate to think that only republicans are in favour of civil disobedience.

    Will we now have a vote of no confidence at all the shinner MLA’s that took part in their act of civil disobedience???

    Hold on, I forgot we can’t do that the shinners are beyond punishment, or so they think.

    The shinner mister angry Gerry “old bailey” Kelly would be apoplectic and would only claim it was a failure of political Unionism.

    If we did have that vote there would hardly be a shinner at Stormont.

    Anyhow, when is the secretary of state going to revoke Wilson’s licence and reimprison the leading IRA/shinner to complete his bombing sentence???

  • andnowwhat

    Sounds like all he’s gulty off i watching too much Murder She Wrote

  • Toastedpuffin

    “where is Gerry Kelly’s evidence that ‘political policing’ has ocurred in P.Wilson’s case?”

    There isn’t any, Kelly’s indulging in a cynical smear campaign.

    The fact is, the arrest is evidence of even-handedness and a LACK of political policing that’s to be very much welcomed. The courage of the criminal justice system in tackling the cronyism that’s infected our country of late is to be commended.

  • Politico68

    Its hardly likely that any former IRA members will come out and state publicly that they were involved in this or that, the same way loyalists wont, the same way the DUP wont fessup to their tango with ‘terrorists’ the same way the British will keep secret for as long as they can their specific misdeeds, the same way the Irish gov wont re-open the issue of the gun running scandal of the seventies, the same way unionists wont ever admit to discrimination, etc. etc. blah blah and on it goes. By the time we ever see any evidence of anything, the people involved will be dead and gone. Whatever we think of Adams nd McGuinness or Unionists or loyalists etc. does not matter a dam in the face of political mandate.

  • tacapall

    “the same way the British will keep secret for as long as they can their specific misdeeds”

    It looks like this is another one of those checks and balances moments in the road to putting the past behind us. Padraic Wilson a leading Shinner being charged with IRA membership with the possibility of his licence being revoked, A new investigation into Enniskillen, the UVF leadership possibly in the dock within weeks and the review into the Patrick Finucane waiting to be revealed. The British Prime Minister has already admitted state collusion into Patrick Finucane’s murder and reneged on a promise of a public inquiry, sacrificial lambs will have to be offered to give the illusion of justice and fair play therefore expect one or two former RUC officers to be either charged or under investigation. T

  • IanR

    AU:

    “Why did the IRA/Sinn Fein feel the need for Padraic Wilson need to help the McCartney sisters in the first place???

    I thought IRA/Sinn Fein had bought into policing???”

    They have now, but the McCartney events fall into the awkward period after the Good Friday Agreement but before SF signed up to support the PSNI. An analogous situation arose after Bobby Tohill was beaten up in Kelly Cellars. To be fair to Martin McGuinness, in that case he did call for those convicted of the assault to hand themselves in, to some criticism from republican grassroots. (“They were only following orders”.)

    “Another thing I want to know, is when is his licence going to be revoked by the secretary of state??? So he can spend the rest of his 24 year sentence back in prison.”

    If you look at the case of Johnny Adair, his license was revoked (several times) but there reached a point where he was automatically entitled to be released under legislation that pre-dated the GFA release provisions, as (I think) two-thirds of his sentence had elapsed. With the UDA feuding reaching boiling point, I’m sure the SoS at the time (Hain or Murphy?) would have kept him in longer if they possibly could have found a way.

    Wilson was convicted in 1991 for 24 years, so he’s already past three quarters of his sentence.

    Gerry Kelly raised an interesting point which I don’t think has been mentioned here on Slugger:

    “Mr Kelly said that the media should also be concerned at the arrest because under this legislation reporters could be charged for talking to illegal organisations.”

  • Covenanter

    “It looks like this is another one of those checks and balances moments in the road to putting the past behind us. Padraic Wilson a leading Shinner being charged with IRA membership with the possibility of his licence being revoked, A new investigation into Enniskillen, the UVF leadership possibly in the dock within weeks and the review into the Patrick Finucane waiting to be revealed. The British Prime Minister has already admitted state collusion into Patrick Finucane’s murder and reneged on a promise of a public inquiry, sacrificial lambs will have to be offered to give the illusion of justice and fair play therefore expect one or two former RUC officers to be either charged or under investigation. T”

    tapacall,

    I don’t think that the justice system in this country has been engineered to be in synch your wet dreams just yet.

  • Covenanter

    “The fact is, the arrest is evidence of even-handedness and a LACK of political policing that’s to be very much welcomed. The courage of the criminal justice system in tackling the cronyism that’s infected our country of late is to be commended.”

    I fully agree with that statement up to a point. The proof of the pudding will be in whether this case is followed through to its logical conclusion. If not then we will be looking at one law for Sinners and another law for everyone else.

  • tacapall

    “I don’t think that the justice system in this country has been engineered to be in synch your wet dreams just yet.”

    What part do you think im having a wet dream about “Jimmy”, the UVF leadership possibly in the dock within weeks or expecting one or two former RUC officers to be either charged or under investigation ?

  • Covenanter

    The wet dream refers to your ‘checks and balances’ nonsense. Wilson was charged because of evidence brought forward by the McCartney sisters. His case has nothing whatsoever to do with any coordinated fantasy that may be going on in your head.

  • sectarianheadcount

    Well Spotlight was interesting, Shinner telling us how the organisation that incinerated pet owners at La Mon and blew up small boys at Warrington “commanded respect” whilst the organisations which are currently targeting, in their parlance, Crown Forces, deserve only opprobrium…. two words to rearrange: hypocrisy and nauseating.

  • Covenanter

    Sinnerdom was always based on lies. In the old days their lies were used to justify murder. Nowadays they are used to justify the murders that they committed in the past whilst at the same time condemning current murders. Republicans lie and people die. It was always thus.

  • 241934 john brennan

    For SF leaders ‘murder’ and ‘criminality’ are slippery words that don’t usually apply to the Provos.
    e.g. they will never use the word murder in relation Jean McConville, or to Claudy. And when DFM says the Dissidents are ‘swimming in a sea of criminality’, he will not use that word ‘criminality’ in relation to the Northern Bank robbery, nor to the robbery in which Garda Gerry McCabe was deliberately shot dead by the Provos – all angel and/ or political prisoners each and every one.

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    The hypocrisy of Republicans over this is beyond parody. Does anyone actually follow their bizarre (lack of) logic? I genuinely can’t fathom it, other than they assert exclusive legitimacy for their own little band of terrorists. There doesn’t seem to be any coherent thinking involved, it boils down to “cos I said so”. Pathetic.

  • Covenanter

    “Does anyone actually follow their bizarre (lack of) logic?”

    I read it as follows. “We have been kind enough to stop murdering people therefore please be kind enough to stop prosecuting those of us who broke the law. Otherwise we may just be unable to stop our drones from returning to murdering people.”

  • IrelandNorth

    I strongly untuit that Sínn Féin has learned that in order to adapt to the representative democracy game in a schizophrenicised nationality inflicted by political partitionism, it is necessary on occasion to appear to speak out of both sides of ones mouth. Or to propose seemingly contradictory iniatives. But then, they wouldn’t be the first ones to do so, since the spin doctoring of political advisors and the designer propaganda of the mainstream media probably leave them standing. Seems George Orwell’s 1984 Dictionary of Newspeak is extant in the modern world.