Robinson responds to Kearney of Sinn Fein’s approach on the past…

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So Robbo strikes back? In what is at times a somewhat ill-tempered response to Vincent Declan Kearney’s piece delivered in Westminster the other night (see Brian’s piece for a great first hand account), Peter Robinson’s response takes few prisoners:

The fact that fiscal freedom for Northern Ireland and a replacement of the Barnett formula would cost Northern Ireland billions of pounds a year is an inconvenient truth that is best forgotten for Mr Kearney.
And a border poll in which the outcome is a foregone conclusion from start to finish would merely serve to distract from our primary responsibility of seeking to get the economy moving again and it would also unnecessarily polarise politics for years ahead.

I suppose that we should consider it to be progress that he merely calls for the withdrawal of the British Secretary of State from Northern Ireland and not the British presence altogether as was for so long the case.

What puzzles me is not that Sinn Fein felt the need to respond to my comments, but that they chose Declan Kearney to do so. There are more than enough Sinn Fein MLAs who would happily put their name to any press release attacking the DUP no matter how ill-informed the content.

Only a few weeks ago even Alex Maskey was prepared to associate his name with the claim that I wanted a return to majority rule when in that speech I had expressly said exactly the opposite, so there is clearly a reservoir of fodder for their press office.

Why then burn Declan Kearney and put him beyond the pale for any engagement with what he disparagingly refers to as “political unionism”? Why combine a call for reconciliation with a vile and angry rant and a personal attack? Those are the questions that Sinn Fein will have to answer.

Mr Kearney’s speech has all the hallmarks of reflecting multiple personalities or multiple ghost authors – from the worthy, reaching out for reconciliation to the bitter and twisted unionist-haters who are struggling to come to terms with the new politics. If such a conflict represents an internal tension within Sinn Fein then I genuinely hope that the forces for progress can prevail.

Mr Kearney would do well to note that those who constitute “political unionism” are actually the people mandated by the unionist electorate to represent their views. The outlook of ordinary unionists may not quite as neatly fit the republican agenda as the hand-picked – small “u” soft unionists with whom he would prefer to deal, but we are what he is stuck with.

So who could be against reconciliation? Well Mr Kearney’s lofty aspiration of a spirit of shared compassion and generosity towards one another while recognising our common humanity stands in stark contrast to his ad hominem attacks.

I was accused of being responsible for every wrong and ill over recent decades. No doubt if he had spoken for longer I would have taken the blame for the potato famine as well. Or perhaps that was caused by the securocrats!

In Mr Kearney’s analysis, unionists are accused of everything short of war crimes over the past 90 years. Not surprisingly in the imaginary Kearney world republicans have done no wrong and are not subjected to any criticism. However, in the real world, history will record that it was the IRA that killed more Catholics than the security forces. The record will show that the IRA killed three times as many people as all loyalist paramilitary organisations combined.

And:

At the heart of the Kearney analysis is a fundamental misunderstanding of ordinary unionists. That’s why the IRA were so slow to recognise the futility of their armed campaign. It is also why their new strategy will fail. When Sinn Fein can’t even persuade those who vote for nationalist or republican parties of the case for Irish unity they are hardly likely to make headway with unionists.

Mr Kearney’s outburst notwithstanding, we should get back to our agenda of building peace and prosperity for everyone in Northern Ireland. The DUP will seek to broaden and deepen the coalition for the Union. We will reach out to those beyond our natural base and seek to expand our support.

Our aim is not to rehabilitate the reputations of those who waged a brutal terrorist campaign on the province for decades, but to make the case for the Union for those who want a better life for themselves and for their children.

The reconciliation we seek is a genuine healing of community divisions today and not the airbrushing of awkward history. It is based on working together for the future and not seeking to allocate blame and responsibility for the wrongs of the past.

This is 2012 and not 1972. Sinn Fein is in government with the DUP and the DUP with Sinn Fein. We do not agree on the causes of past division and conflict. Nor do we agree on Northern Ireland’s long-term constitutional future either, but we can work together in this generation with the other parties for all the people of Northern Ireland.

The worst thing that unionists could do would be to allow Sinn Fein to draw us into a debate about the past that we have long since won and which they are now trying to reinvent. We must focus on the urgent demands of dealing with the many problems our society is facing today.

Robinson with an inversion of what his own precondition of doing a deal allowing his party to enter government with Sinn Fein had once been: “reconciliation is a process and not an event.”

As I noted yesterday on Brian’s thread, I don’t think a reconciliation process is possible unless certain preconditions are dropped.

And although Robinson goads Sinn Fein about Gerry Adams coming clean about his past, he also knows very well that the President of Sinn Fein cannot do that without running the risk of ending up locked up alongside the likes of Gerry McGeough and Marian Price.

That’s the flaw in everyone’s plan for dealing with the past. It requires too high a price of the living. Former combatants and the rest of us.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I wonder if we’re premature in trying to deal with the past when we have not sorted out the present.

    The antics of the DUP over the summer, especially in North Belfast, can’t possibly tie up with whatever Robinson has in mind when he talks about reaching out beyond his natural base. Speaking personally, I was feeling quite warm and fuzzy about the DUP but that was all undone when Nigel Dodds and Nelson McCausland came out to support lawbreaking.

    Robinson is quite right to point out that such outreach is necessary as the actions of his party have made Gerry Kelly MP almost a cert in 2015. If I lived in North Belfast I’d be seriously considering voting for Kelly, if nothing else to make the point that outreach needs to go beyond the odd speech here and there – and I wonder how many Antrim Road Stoops would feel the same way.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Mick, I think I would use ‘blunt’ rather than ‘ill-tempered’ response.

    For those who may not be familiar with the nuances of NI politics, Vincent was speaking of reconciliation in an ‘island of Ireland’ context whereas Peter is speaking in a Northern Ireland one.

    I don’t see how Gerry Adams is at any more risk of being locked up than is Martin McGuinness; the difference with Gerry McGeough and Marian Price is that the latter two are opponents of the current political process.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Robinson’s utterances perfectly illustrate both the character flaws which detract from his personal and political leadership and his failure to actually build any sort of consensus- never mind strategy- within his party for the idea that a unionist outreach initiative is a worthwhile endeavour.

    His words and actions stand in stark contrast to that of the deputy First Minister, Martin McGuinness, who spent the week meeting the Orange Order and sending public condolences to the family of a British soldier killed in Afghanistan.

    Quite why Robinson felt the need to pen and deliver such a petulant speech- throwing back to the Angry Man image- is not only bizarre but an example of poor judgement (and he has had several such lapses during the summer.)

    Imagine were Adams and McGuinness to publicly feel compelled to deliver such speeches every time a DUP figure castigated Sinn Fein in public.

    The reference to the potato famine is also in poor taste, not least given that Robinson effectively went into hiding during the summer following his decision – and that of fellow DUP elected representatives- to give their support to the Loyal Order law-breaking in support of the sectarian antics of a UVF-aligned band outside of a catholic church in Belfast, who decided it was proper order to play The Famine Song outside of St Patrick’s on the 12th July.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Imagine were Adams and McGuinness to publicly feel compelled to deliver such speeches”

    Chris, what’s the difference between the party chairman delivering that tirade at Westminster and Martin McGuinness doing so? Has Martin lost his bite? ;)

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    LOL @ Gerry Kelly MP.

    How many years has that prediction been doing the rounds now???

  • Chris Donnelly

    Big difference, Nevin, and political leaders are supposed to know that.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Inevitably we need to deal with the past and all the unanswered questions; and that should be done by agreeing to the establishment of an independent, international truth commission. v. kearney

    ‘And although Robinson goads Sinn Fein about Gerry Adams coming clean about his past, he also knows very well that the President of Sinn Fein cannot do that without running the risk of ending up locked up alongside the likes of Gerry McGeough and Marian Price.’ Mick

    Sooooooo,the shinners want a ‘truth’ commision….that excludes them…..because they might go to jail.

    Brian’s endorsement of the kearney speech becomes even more puzzling ?

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Martin McGuinness, who spent the week meeting the Orange Order”

    Was there a punch-up between Peter and Martin, Chris, or was Peter content to put the boot into Vincent after tea and buns with Martin and the OO?

    Grand Lodge can confirm representatives from Portadown District have met with the FM & DFM to discuss issues concerning the Drumcree parade .. tweet

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Big difference, Nevin”

    Chris, the chairman would be seen as part of the leadership team. You are conveying an image of SF speaking out of both sides of the mouth.

  • Brian Walker

    “You started it. No you did”

    Kearney seems to have touched a nerve! He is partly to blame for wrapping his quite interesting list in blue touch paper for Peter to light. You have to wonder whether these guys ever listen to themselves never mind each other. ? After a good 5 minute rant against SF Peter actually says of Kearney

    “It is a strange form of reconciliation that is advocated with such bitter, divisive and incendiary language”

    If the exchanges between the two is the rhetoric of reconciliation what would they be like back at war? Where do they think this really plays these days?

    Most people desensitised over the decades just shrug off this rubbish . But one – maybe – we’ll surprise ourselves by the volume of the outcry against it.

    As with Kearney’s speech there’s much both sides can agree on and much that’s vapid. So guys, now that you’ve emptied the bilges, where to are you going to steer the ship?

    Have we now heard the last of the jungle drums before you back sideways into unveiling an agreed wonderful plan for living and learning together regardless or class or creed?

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “It requires too high a price of the living. Former combatants and the rest of us.”

    I think I would add victims between ‘combatants’ and ‘the rest of us'; they often tend to be forgotten. I don’t consider myself to be a combatant or a victim; just someone who happened not to be living in the wrong place but who also had the good fortune to come under the influence of the late Ray Davey, a founder of the Corrymeela Community.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “into unveiling an agreed wonderful plan for living and learning together regardless or class or creed”

    Not a mission, Brian; you may have noticed that Coleraine and district is to have two separate area plans for post-primary provision.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “where to are you going to steer the ship”

    Interesting metaphor, Brian – though dinghy might be more apt than ship! We have two dry-land sailors tugging at the rudder so the small craft will lurch this way and that as the squalls and ebb and flow of the global economic tide determine its actual course.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Until Kearney and chums can step forward,put their hands up,and admit that their dirty,little,sectarian,skirmish was not only wrong,but completely unjustifiable,the only people falling for the shinner rhetoric will be the usual suspects.

    Trick or Treat,Brian ? :-)

  • Jimmy McGurk

    Heinz
    I believe that Truth Commissions normally work on the proviso that if you come clean, totally clean, you are exempt from prosecution.

    The overall benefit to society of having everything out in the open is seen as more beneficial than using the court system to chase a few individuals. The emphasis being on reconciliation rather than puntive action.

  • dennis the menace

    Amazed at the term “former combatants”
    Dont you meant terrorists. murderers or even scum would be better.

  • galloglaigh

    So…

    Gerry Adams was never in the IRA – Aye right hi…

    Martin McGuinness left the IRA in 1974 – Aye right hi…

    Ian Paisley and Peter Robinson left the Ulster Resistance/Third Force after they started using ‘violence’ – Aye right hi…

    Will Robo admit to his own seedy terrorist past?

  • Submariner

    “The record will show that the IRA killed three times as many people as all loyalist paramilitary organisations combined.”

    Eh no it wont Peter
    The IRA killed 1712 people the Loyalists killed 1016 people. Your maths are as bad as your memory Peter. Over 200 of these were murdered by weapons brought into NI by Ulster resistance, remember them Peter they were the paramilitary organisation that your party founded. Now what was that you were saying about people owning up to their past.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Perhaps the figures lie somewhere in between. According to the Sutton Index, British security killed 363, Republican paramilitaries 2061 and Loyalist paramilitaries 1016.

  • Submariner

    Nevin your reading skills seem to be as bad as Peters maths.

  • Comrade Stalin

    DDB,

    SF have been closing the gap with the DUP in North Belfast continuously for the past three Westminster elections at best.

    Unless the UUP decide to support an electoral pact with the DUP, I’d put my money on Kelly taking the seat in 2015. A scenario which would be completely avoidable if unionists acted with a little bit more common sense over marching.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Are you suggesting DUP voters will stay at home?

    I doubt North Belfast Unionists will be upset at the DUP standing up to cultural fascism emanating from Frank Dempsey – a confirmed supporter of a religiously-motivated terrorist group responsible for hundreds of Protestant deaths and injuries in the constituency.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Submariner, your 1712 only refers to PIRA; the 2061 in Sutton refers to the alphabet soup of Republican paramilitaries.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “SF have been closing the gap with the DUP in North Belfast continuously for the past three Westminster elections at best.”

    CS, the SF/SDLP share of the vote in 2001 was 46.2%; their share in 2010 was 46.3%. The SF rise has been matched by an SDLP decline but the overall Nationalist picture hasn’t changed that much. Why do you think they’re both ‘running after’ Republican dissidents at present, with little apparent thought for paramilitary victims? Do you suppose the political situation in North Belfast is a factor? I don’t see how the SDLP can benefit from such behaviour.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Are you suggesting DUP voters will stay at home?

    No. I am saying there won’t be enough DUP voters to prevent Kelly taking the seat if nationalists decide to vote tactically, and that the behaviour of the DUP over the summer has increased the likelihood of this happening.

    This is not some sort of a pipe dream. The DUP are very worried about Nigel’s seat.

    I doubt North Belfast Unionists will be upset at the DUP standing up to cultural fascism emanating from Frank Dempsey – a confirmed supporter of a religiously-motivated terrorist group responsible for hundreds of Protestant deaths and injuries in the constituency.

    If you’re going to dismiss all nationalists as terrorists or proxies for a terrorist strategy, then don’t be too surprised if they shrug their shoulders and tactically vote for Sinn Féin. After all if you’re going to call them a bunch of fenian rabble-rousers then who are they to argue ?

    Nevin,

    Why do you think they’re both ‘running after’ Republican dissidents at present, with little apparent thought for paramilitary victims?

    I am not sure about SF doing it (Gerry Kelly is on several death lists and has received numerous warnings from the police about his safety). The SDLP’s courting of the dissident vote is repugnant stuff. Aside from being shameful, it is utterly stupid. The notion that hardline republicans are going to turn out and support the “moderate” party which negotiated the GFA and put Sinn Féin in government is nuts. These people do not vote.

    I think it’s the SDLP being stupid, rather than tactical. It’ll all end in tears. We should be talking about how we can crack down on these people – who oppress nationalist communities (as seen a few nights ago with the murder, carried out by dissidents, off the Whitewell) and get them locked up. We should not be talking about releasing people who are openly talking about how to destroy the country.

    None of that changes the fact that the DUP in North Belfast openly and publicly came down on the side of the UVF stirring up parades trouble. It is as clear as day that Peter Robinson knew this – as soon as he got off the plane coming home from Florida he slapped them down and organized various diversion strategies. I fear that Robinson is having trouble getting people to understand the reality as he correctly perceives it, which is that the union can’t be strengthened if unionists keep bullying nationalists under its protection; and conversely, the union is immensely stronger – as it is today – if nationalists feel they are safe within it.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “I am not sure about SF doing it”

    CS, the SF motion in Dungannon and South Tyrone Borough Council was reported in the News Letter and the Newton Emerson reaction was discussed at length on Slugger.

    As for the ‘reaching out’ lingo of the DUP and SF, I think it’s a whole load of blarney.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Stalin, my point was that Frank Dempsey is a supporter of religiously-motivated, anti-Protestant murder gangs. Given his star appearance at an IRA party in Ladybrook recently that is undisputed FACT.

    Are you denying that this repulsive bigot is an IRA cheerleader?

  • Submariner

    Exactly nevin as I said your reading skills are on a par with Robisons maths . If you had bothered to read robinsons quote you would have seen that it was he who specifically mentioned the IIRA as opposed to other republican groups. Im still not sure what point he or indeed you were trying to make

  • HeinzGuderian

    ‘Submariner, your 1712 only refers to PIRA; the 2061 in Sutton refers to the alphabet soup of Republican paramilitaries.’

    Sub seems to have a problem with republican,murder gang figures ?
    Gal,seems to have the same problem ?

    I await the Gal derision of Donnelly’s unrepentant support of all things sf/ira……….I won’t hold my breath.

  • HeinzGuderian

    In Mr Kearney’s analysis, unionists are accused of everything short of war crimes over the past 90 years. Not surprisingly in the imaginary Kearney world republicans have done no wrong and are not subjected to any criticism. However, in the real world, history will record that it was the IRA that killed more Catholics than the security forces. The record will show that the IRA killed three times as many people as all loyalist paramilitary organisations combined.

    http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/troubles/troubles_stats.html#communityperpetrator

    Only a vulture would dispute Robinsons figures !

  • BluesJazz

    CS

    Why would the UUP even run a candidate in North Belfast 2015? Fred Cobain has thrown in the towel.
    It would be a pointless effort.

  • Submariner

    How observant of you Heinz. I was indeed quoting the number killed by the IRA as it wasthe IRA that Robinson specifically mentioned. It sems your reading skills are on a par with Nevins reading and Robinsons maths. Personally I blamethe poor prod education syatem we keep on hearing about

  • Submariner

    Should read system

  • HeinzGuderian

    Dear,oh dear,oh dear,Sub.
    The sectarian,religious jibe ?
    Really ?
    Follow the link. Tot up the figures. Feast your soul.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    Submariner, Peter refers to the IRA as do I – a shorthand for Republican paramilitaries – whereas you refer to PIRA.. I don’t know where Peter got his 3:1 ratio from whereas its about 2:1.

  • tacapall

    Most people would agree with your figures HG but how can you accept the accuracy of those statistics when apportioning blame for who was ultimately responsible. The person who pulls the trigger or who sets off the bomb can be fingered as the perpetrator, but in all honesty when looking at the crime of murder can you separate the actions of those who supplied the weapon or bomb, those who implanted the idea or supplied the intelligence, those who allowed the killers escape from justice, and those who had the knowledge that the murder was about to take place, who had the power to stop it, but stood back and allowed it to happen. Would you call that a joint enterprise or whatever but all were and are responsible.

    It is a fact that the RUC and British intelligence supplied weapons to Loyalist paramilitaries, implanted the idea and supplied the intelligence on the murder victims, allowed the murderers to escape justice, had knowledge the murder or murders were about to take place, by both loyalist and republican paramilitaries, had the power to stop it but stood back and allowed both innocent civilians and their own colleagues to be killed.

    Those figures you keep mentioning are flawed and if there ever was some sort of truth process where all parties involved washed their dirty lined in public Im sure we would all be shocked and deeply disturbed at the depths to which some people went in order to keep things the way they were.

  • Comrade Stalin

    DBB,

    Stalin, my point was that Frank Dempsey is a supporter of religiously-motivated, anti-Protestant murder gangs. Given his star appearance at an IRA party in Ladybrook recently that is undisputed FACT.

    Are you denying that this repulsive bigot is an IRA cheerleader?

    Aren’t you the guy who was justifying UVF murders a few weeks ago in the context of the conflict ? If so what are you doing calling other people murderers and cheerleaders ?

    Is it too much to ask that you pick a position on paramilitaries and the past and stick to it ?

    Nevin,

    Thank you, I was not aware that SF were behind the McGeough motion. I think it was wrong, and a serious mistake.

    Heinz,

    From your link, 396 (UVF) 212 (unknown loyalist) 149 (UFF) 102 (UDA) 37 (PAF) gives 816. The IRA are 1696. I hate to break this to you but 1696 is barely more than twice 816. It is nowhere near three times. Adding the INLA and RIRA deaths onto the end of it still doesn’t give three times. Perhaps you could correct me.

    If your point is that the IRA were the clear aggressors in the conflict and were driving it forward the whole time, that is true and is borne out by the numbers. But why exaggerate when the truth is compelling by itself ?

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “But why exaggerate when the truth is compelling by itself ?”

    CS, I’ve been trying to figure out where the 3:1 ratio comes from. From the Sutton Index, Loyalists are linked to one third of the paramilitary related deaths [1016] and Republicans to two thirds [2061]. Perhaps the first part of that sentence has been misunderstood and given rise to the 3:1 ratio.

  • Youknowho

    All this goes to show is that its Northern Ireland, not the island of Ireland, that needs reconciliation and unification.

    Most people in the Republic would not have a clue about half the issues or persons referred to here. Unionists should worry less about ‘pan-nationalist’ fronts, and Republicans should worry more about stagnating. For the former, the union is secure but their society is slowly outgrowing their outlook. For the latter, the immense effort on gaining political power and getting into government south of the border is wasting efforts better spent in their homeland.

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    All you need to know about Robbo is to recall how he became DUP er…. leader. He didn’t get there by honestly challenging the incumbent, oh no, that would have required leadership and Robbo was never officer material. He went about it by scheming to unbdermine his lider maximo by undermining his son, knowing that this would lead to IPS falling by default. The Free Presbyterian elders shoed their leadership by evicting the church founder. Robbo hadn’t the guts to do the same by straightforward route. He hasn’t an ounce of leadership in him and his rank cowardice in hiding away for days after the Black Saturday debacle exposes him as unfit for any serious office.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Comrade Stalin:
    Aren’t you the guy who was justifying UVF murders a few weeks ago in the context of the conflict ? If so what are you doing calling other people murderers and cheerleaders ?

    Is it too much to ask that you pick a position on paramilitaries and the past and stick to it ?

    .
    Nice whataboutery from our resident troll Stalin. You’re becoming worse than Joe.

    I was merely pointing out the outrageous position of Frank Dempsey – who openly supports the murder and maiming of protestant pensioners, women and children by the IRA whilst at the same time feigns offence at law-abiding, Christian men taking part in a dignified religious procession because it’s ‘slightly’ near the area where he lives.

    In any other society a rancid, hate-filled bigot like ‘Dipper’ Dempsey would be ostracised from society – not given carte blanche on the airwaves to peddle his hate and lies.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “by undermining his son”

    There may have been an element of that, Daniel, but Ian jnr’s wounds were largely self-inflicted. His ‘I know of him’ remark provided an opening for investigative journalists, an opening which they enlarged with relish. Had he said ‘he’s a party member and he often seeks support from the party and other parties’ the journalists probably wouldn’t have bothered leaving Belfast.

  • fordprefect

    DDB
    Are you trying to be funny? Do you live on another planet? “Law abiding, Christian men taking part in a dignified religious procession”?! What news channel were you watching that showed that? You’re right of course that rancid, hate filled bigots should be ostacised from society, people like Peter Robinson and Nelson McCausland spring to mind.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “A scenario which would be completely avoidable if unionists acted with a little bit more common sense over marching.”

    CS, I don’t think common sense arises for Unionists or Nationalists so far as the constitutional question is concerned.

    Do you not understand the basis of the Athboy strategy? Do you not appreciate that the Parades Commission’s compromise deals impact adversely on Unionism, that they lead to a factory of grievances for militant Nationalists, and that they encourage and reinforce apartheid?

    Ballintoy on the Causeway Coast is a mixed village with a mixed community association. During the summer the association decided to have a children’s fancy dress parade along the main street and they asked two members of the accordion band to lead it. A read mist descended on Cara McShane, the local SF councillor. Cara and I have worked together with others on a number of issues in Moyle – she jumped to my defence when I was being harangued by a prominent NI solicitor whilst councillors from other parties didn’t (and I smiled) – but on this issue she just seemed to lose it.

  • galloglaigh

    DDB

    How about some more whataboutrey:

    Nice whataboutery from our resident troll Stalin. You’re becoming worse than Joe.

    What about the outrageous position of Wee Winky – who openly supports the murder and maiming of Catholic pensioners, women and children by the UVF whilst at the same time feigns offence at law-abiding, Christian parishioners taking part in a dignified stance on unionist terrorist bands playing sectarian songs outside their place of worship.

    In any other society a rancid, hate-filled bigot like that would be ostracised from society – not given carte blanche on the airwaves to peddle his hate and lies.

    That wee statement of yours can be turned in quite an ironic manner!

  • Submariner

    “What about the outrageous position of Wee Winky”

    Galloglaigh please tell me that DDB is not Winkie Irvine?

  • galloglaigh

    Sub

    I’d put a weeks money on it!

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail danielsmoran

    Nevin[11.16].It’s true that Ian og presented a soft target for robbo, with being his party’s fall guy for their ‘see more developments’ habits. There’s bound to be film on all the shenanigans surounding Iris and Ian at some point.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    If anyone has photos of Winston Irvine handing out medals to convicted killers at a UVF ‘party’ and then trying to deny cultural rights to Nationalists (GAA, gobbledegook language, etc) please present it.

    Otherwise pipe down.

  • Comrade Stalin

    DDB,

    OK, so given that you chose to respond to my point about the DUP and its lack of outreach over the way the party conducted itself during the summer by asking me “but what about Frank Dempsey” – apparently when I respond in kind, I’m the one guilty of whataboutery ? What sort of idiots do you take people for ?

    And hypocrisy is hypocrisy. You can’t come on here and talk about how certain UVF figures were ordinary folk who were caught up in the times by shooting people in the back, and then simultaneously ask for republicans to be called out as murdering sectarian bigots. It is clear you feel absolutely no compulsion to even attempt to be objective about the past or the present but you could at least try.

    Nevin,

    Do you not understand the basis of the Athboy strategy? Do you not appreciate that the Parades Commission’s compromise deals impact adversely on Unionism, that they lead to a factory of grievances for militant Nationalists, and that they encourage and reinforce apartheid?

    No, I don’t appreciate any of the above Nevin as you know full well. I completely support the need for the Parades Commission to make determinations for as long as marching bodies of any kind refuse to engage with local residents to seek agreement. I really don’t have time for Unionism complaining that it’s unfair when they won’t even talk.

    I’d like to see a solution for parades that involves all the parades proceeding as planned. I think this is possible. I believe nationalists will agree to abolishing the Parades Commission in exchange for a commitment to negotiate over parades, and I think that 99% of the time the negotiations will place no restrictions on parades beyond agreement that certain songs will not be played at certain times. I know you don’t believe that because you’d much rather believe in a siege mentality world where unionism is constantly under attack, but I hope that at some point during your remaining time on the planet you get the opportunity to change your mind.

  • tacapall

    “If anyone has photos of Winston Irvine handing out medals to convicted killers at a UVF ‘party’ and then trying to deny cultural rights to Nationalists (GAA, gobbledegook language, etc) please present it.”

    DDB the very fact that he’s aligned to, or a member of a paramilitary group who give their word that their war was over, apologised for all its wrong doings, then as soon as the cameras were away engaged in the murder of dozens of its own people. You think he is worthy of praise or that somehow he’s a peacemaker. – There is no logic in what you say.

    There is no right to march wherever you want especially when local residents where you want to march object, Wootton Bassett proved that fact.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    tacapall:
    DDB the very fact that he’s aligned to, or a member of a paramilitary group who give their word that their war was over, apologised for all its wrong doings, then as soon as the cameras were away engaged in the murder of dozens of its own people. You think he is worthy of praise or that somehow he’s a peacemaker.

    .
    Seriously a chara, this is a big boy’s discussion forum – if you want to make allegations of wrongdoing or illegal activities you have to provide proof.

    Have you any proof Winston Irvine is a member of the UVF or has been convicted of a crime?

    I have proof Frank Dempsey supports religiously-motivated attacks against protestant grannies, women and children because the dopey idiot was stupid enough to have his picture taken handing over awards to convicted IRA murderers in Lady brook recently.

    See the difference here?

  • Dont Drink Bleach
  • tacapall

    “Have you any proof Winston Irvine is a member of the UVF”

    I have as much proof as loyalists and Unionists have that Gerry Adams was a member of the IRA.

    Can you see the difference there ?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Whataboutery taca.

    No-one’s mentioned Gerry so why would you bring him up?

    Let’s stick to Winston – where’s your evidence he is in the UVF???

    Do you have any?

  • galloglaigh

    DDB

    Given that you think Eamonn Mallie and Nelson McCauseland’s blog are proof, would you also rate the Sunday World as proof?

  • tacapall

    Thats hardly whataboutery DDB when you can brand someone because you interpret his actions at a social event as supporting religiously motivated attacks. You have just as much evidence to support that assumption as I have that Winkie Irvine is a UVF member.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Nelson’s article was based on photographs taken at an IRA ‘party’ held in Ladybrook a few weeks ago and published in the Andytown News.

    The photographs show ‘Dipper’ Dempsey presenting medals and awards to convicted IRA murderers in appreciation for their ‘service’ carried out while they were members of the outlawed, religiously-motivated terror gang.

    One might surmise that Dempsey himself is/was a member of the same outlawed terror gang – but our evidence allows us only to prove he attends parties celebrating religiously-motivated terrorism and is deemed of a certain high standing among the gang’s members to be asked to present awards and medals on stage.

    Now – without wanting to repeatedly pose the same question over and over – do any of you have photos or evidence of Winston Irvine doing something similar?

    If not, no comparison between the two can be made.

  • tacapall

    Winston Irvine Winston Irvine ‏@propatriaeamore

    “Queen Elizabeth II shows enormous respect on her visit to Ireland only to have Irish press treat her family with absolute disdain.cowards”

    DDB. So leading on from Winkies post above would you assume he supports the executioners of UVF man Brian Robinson ?

  • galloglaigh

    I wonder would photographs of a certain ‘loyal unionist’ taking part in a UVF riot float your boat?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    tacapall:
    Winston Irvine Winston Irvine ‏@propatriaeamore

    “Queen Elizabeth II shows enormous respect on her visit to Ireland only to have Irish press treat her family with absolute disdain.cowards”

    DDB. So leading on from Winkies post above would you assume he supports the executioners of UVF man Brian Robinson ?

    .
    Not sure what the quoted tweet has to do with your follow-on question???

    But if you have his twitter address why don’t you ask him directly?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    galloglaigh (profile) 28 October 2012 at 9:04 pm
    I wonder would photographs of a certain ‘loyal unionist’ taking part in a UVF riot float your boat?

    .
    Once again, you’d need to have EVIDENCE that it was ‘a UVF riot’ and that all those involved were members of the UVF.

    Can you do that?

  • tacapall

    “Not sure what the quoted tweet has to do with your follow-on question???”

    I know you know exactly what I mean but you just dont have the balls to say it.

    “But if you have his twitter address why don’t you ask him directly”

    Dont need to, I already know Winkie swears his loyalty to the Queen and her armies, therefore he supports the actions of those Queens soldiers who were authorised by her government to execute Brian Robinson.

    Would that be any different than your assumption of Frank Dempsey.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    You’ve completely lost me a charra.

    Give me a shout if you start making some sense again.

  • tacapall

    I know you see the hypocrisy of it all, its hard for you to understand why Winkie and possibly yourself would support and give your loyalty and devotion to a Queen, her government and her Armies, who acting on information from person or persons in the UVF leadership, ambushed Brian Robinson and executed him for the crime of sectarian murder.

  • galloglaigh

    I don’t need to do anything, your reply says it all mucker!

  • andnowwhat

    Big Jim names Winkie as a member of the UVF. Why doesn’t he take Jim to court? He could put in a press complaints objection but we saw how that goes in Today’s Sunday World.

  • andnowwhat

    Ahhh…Johnathan Bustard was the wee UVF scum who bottled it.

  • galloglaigh

    Another question begs asking: Given that photos of a C list political celebrity rioting are available, why has he no convictions?

    I know the PONI are looking into collusion between the Shankil UVF and Special Branch, but might that be part of the reason?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    andnowwhat:
    Big Jim names Winkie as a member of the UVF. Why doesn’t he take Jim to court? He could put in a press complaints objection but we saw how that goes in Today’s Sunday World.

    .
    Why don’t you ask him?

    His twitter address was posted earlier.

    Perhaps you could tell him about that time you beat up Sinn Fein stabbing victim Robert McCartney in a ‘fair dig’?

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/northern-ireland/193811-slugger-otoole-discussion-forum-ego-trip-39.html#post5650848

    Supposedly this occurred at the same time as you were confined to a wheelchair without the use of your arms and legs.

    Hmmm…..

  • andnowwhat

    Sure, the assailants of James Mc Coubrey posted photos of themselves shortly after they assaulted him on the Internet but the cops still won’t touch them.

    We get the message

  • andnowwhat

    That’s it Bleach? Bit tired now

  • andnowwhat

    So Bleach, why doesn’t Winkie take Big Jim to court?

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    andnowwhat:
    That’s it Bleach? Bit tired now

    .
    Of course you’ll be bored of being continually exposed as a blatant liar as it means no-one takes your silly, little ‘stories’ seriously.

    I like how you don’t even try to explain away the lies either.

    Claiming to have beaten up a murder victim and then being exposed as having made the whole thing up to ‘look hard’ on the internet – I’m sure your daughter is proud of her daddy.

  • andnowwhat

    Address the issue please

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Eskrimador, while we’re discussing your lies can you also clear this ‘claim’ of yours up for us?

    Who was this person?

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/northern-ireland/184275-no-go-areas-catholics-northern-ireland-your-top-five-72.html#post5090453

    No-one fitting your description died during any Drumcree dispute as you claim.

    More lies a chara?

  • andnowwhat

    What are loyalists going to do about Big Jim, beat him up again? I get the feeling that Big Jim would love to be in court with Winkie, don’t you?

    You’ve been showen to be involved in murder, it is only by the grace of the peace agenda that all your licenses have not been revoked.

  • andnowwhat

    Can you not do on topic debate at all Bleach?

  • andnowwhat

    Please excuse me for going off base guys..

    Bleach, if you want to address topics from Politics.ie, please address them to me on there. You are more than welcome, by me, to bring them up on that forum.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    Obviously more tripe then.

    Another lie exposed.

  • andnowwhat

    Please keep to the topic Bleach

  • Mick Fealty

    What topic? I accidently hit the black spot button on my phone last night and had to rescind it. But this personal back and forth on who’s more evil than whom maybe does need a radical solution.

    I really don’t need this place to turn into another P.ie NI forum where posters are told no one cares about their ‘topic’ and then the thread goes on to host a much of character assasination nonsense that bears no relation to the subject of the thread.

    Gallo and DDB. This is a warning. Police yourselves or take yourselves off, permanently preferably if you can’t resist a sectarian bunfight!!

    PLAY THE FECKIN BALL!!!

  • galloglaigh

    I don’t know why your digging your heels at at me. Others are on her continually making accusations surrounding others’, and not a dickie bird. Pat Finucane got a serious touch a while back, and I got it in the teeth for comparing him to another QC and MLA. We’ve had one poster using a nasty term ‘trick or treat’ the last few days, and not a dickie bird. The same poster continually twists posts to make the original poster sound like a monster, and not a dickie bird.

    People can’t have an open debate, when posters can’t see the wood for the trees.

    It’s all pervasive, and myself and DDB are not the only guilty party.

  • Dont Drink Bleach

    I agree. It seems if you’ve been commenting on Slugger for a certain length of time the site’s rules no longer apply.

    I’ve been continually hounded by Mister Joe, Comrade Stalin and Charlie Sheen – who have received no warning or infraction.

    I’ve no problem giving and taking it but at least have the decency to apply your rules to ALL posters.

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s because we dont have a full time ‘policing force’. All I am asking for is a modicum of self discipline.

  • galloglaigh

    Fair enough. My point is still valid though; it’s not the first time I’ve been singled out, while others’ escape unabated.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’ve been continually hounded by Mister Joe, Comrade Stalin and Charlie Sheen – who have received no warning or infraction.

    DDB, I was happy enough to talk about the DUP. You tried to change the subject to the issue of the credentials of Frank Dempsey. I think that was a well-deserved yellow. I have seen tactics like yours before and sadly they’re all too common. You’re not really interested in having a serious discussion. You just want to do your bit for the defence, whatever that entails.

  • http://gravatar.com/joeharron Mister_Joe

    Since I have been “whatabouted”, I think I owe my fellow commenters an explanation. I have actually been cautioned a number of times and have even been carded. My biggest error has been contributing to dragging a thread off topic by rising to the bait and feeding trolls.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “I know you don’t believe that because you’d much rather believe in a siege mentality world where unionism is constantly under attack”

    CS, your language is reminiscent of the language of John Hume: “Personal Views p27 … they [Unionists] hark back to the past and speak of the future only with fear and foreboding, a paranoia … a siege mentality, rooted in insecurity, in prejudice, in fear of domination”

    As you may recollect, I was neither a follow of Hume nor Paisley and I concluded that the way forward was via shared sovereignty. My analysis comes much closer to the 1998 Agreement than did that of Hume because mine embraced the two competing aspirations.

    Seeing as Adams boasted about the Athboy anti-Unionist strategy, you really don’t have a leg to stand on. As for the Hume lingo, I just laugh at it – and I don’t take the Kearney-Robinson sparring too seriously either :)