Slugger O'Toole

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Orange Order: No one will have veto over our Ulster Covenant parade

Fri 21 September 2012, 11:30am

“No one will have a veto over our Ulster Covenant parade”, says Mervyn Gibson, county grand chaplain of the Orange Order in Belfast (as reported in the Tele):

Mr Gibson said that the organisation had consulted with clergy and parishioners from St Patrick’s but that it did not feel compelled to consult with residents regarding the parade. “The reason we are not speaking to residents at this stage is that the issue was respect for St Patrick’s Church,” he added. “That was what was called for with the Black Institution (on August 25) and that is what was called for on the Twelfth of July. “The people to talk to are those at the centre of that — the clergy and the parishioners. And we entered into negotiations — quiet conversations — with the clergy and parishioners. “Now, a new demand has come. How many more groups do we need to talk to? We listened and we took on board what the clergy and parishioners said and playing hymns is our response.” [my emphasis]

Gibson’s statement is undermined somewhat by Fr Michael Sheehan from St Patrick’s who was reported earlier in the week as saying:

…he was disappointed that Carrick Hill Concerned Residents, “who reached out with no objection to parades in principle or specific requirements for re-routing, will not be engaged with in any way. I am also bewildered that they are being excluded from ‘the conversations’,” he said.

For those with a very short memory, these are some key parts of the determination that the Parades Commission made in August (which was ignored by the Orders):

The Parades Commission’s determination is that the following conditions are placed on the organiser, participants and supporters in the parade by The Membership of the City of Belfast Grand Black Chapter on Saturday, 25 August 2012.

A.    On the outward morning parade and the evening return parade no music other than a single drumbeat is to be played on that part of the notified route between the junction of Clifton Street and Trinity Street and the junction of Union Street and Donegall Street.

B.    On the outward morning parade and the evening return parade the Young Conway Volunteers band and its members are prohibited from processing that part of the notified route between the junction of Clifton Street and Trinity Street and the junction of Union Street and Donegall Street.

D.    The Commission re-affirms that all participants in this parade must behave with due regard for the rights, traditions and feelings of others in the vicinity; refrain from using words or behaviour which could reasonably be perceived as intentionally sectarian, provocative, threatening, abusive, insulting or lewd; obey the lawful directions of parade organisers and stewards at all times, from assembly to dispersal and comply with police directions and in accordance with legislation.

E.    The Commission re-affirms the importance of respectful behaviour in the vicinity of interface areas, namely that there shall be no singing, chanting, or loud drumming and that marching should be dignified.  More generally, no paramilitary-style clothing is to be worn at any time during the parade and flags, bannerettes and symbols relating to a proscribed organisation shall in no circumstances be displayed.

Interestingly, various outlets were running with the Orange Order ‘initiative to defuse tensions‘ line earlier in the week, when they were actually wanting to do what the Parades Commission told them couldn’t do in August. If you read below the fold in the BelTel piece, there is a statement about timing of parades from Paul McMahon, vice-president of the Chamber of Comm, following a meeting with the Parades Commission at Windsor House:

“We have presented hard evidence that the recent Black Institution parade contributed to significant losses for our retailers, losses which will never be recouped.”

Meanwhile, the Parades Commission itself is delaying making a decision in the hope that some compromise arises. With no apparent rush to prosecute anyone for breaking the law back in August before the Covenant parades, are the Parades Commission going to cave while the DPP and going to simply fail to uphold the law?

UPDATE: The Parades Commission have opted for the hymns, no supporters and 150 person protest as their determination. Thus we now have the paradox that the protesting residents and parishioners have to observe the determination while the Orange Order have to demand it is upheld. If the protestors breach it, the Orders aren’t actually in a position to object although, obviously they would present themselves as hypocrites if they do – however, as the Orders set that precedent all anyone can hope for, for now, is that it all passes without incident.

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Comments (258)

  1. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    for what its worth the PC have placed restrictions on other covenant parades set for sat, parades by non loyal order groups parades which like the “protests” are one ofs, so should some of these restrictions not be met, what will the PC do, ban these groups from parading come 3012.
    goodnight.

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  2. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    Girl plays accordion too loud, police trail her out of parade, 50000+ people go apeshit, sounds ,not grand to me.
    this time for real, goodnight folks.

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  3. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Just saw a loyalist on the Nolan TV show, a feast of paranoia, and they want things to go ” back to the way things used to be”.

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  4. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    Because even the police are “in the pockets of the taigs”

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  5. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    I am back,
    John, I dispute the narrative that this started with the beach boys bollacks. that band had been subject to the haters before they reached the church that very morning so it could be claim that hatred started this latest round.

    honestly goodnight.

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  6. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    andnowwhat,
    Nolan show!, you watch that shite,you need help.

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  7. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Very true Lamhdearg….it’s full of loyalists tonight.

    Only kidding

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  8. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    John

    One would think that a group loyal to the state would facilitate the state

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  9. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    Seriously though listening to these Loyalists talking is amazing. I saw a Rangers Fan Forum who blamed everyone for their problems. Bizarre paranoia

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  10. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Och Lionel

    Sure the tags are so well off even though the statistics say they are far worse better off.

    Poor Winkie looked close to tears.

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  11. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    The Nolan excerpt on loyalists must surely warrant a blog on here. Our own Chris Donnelly spoke well, accredited as a Slugger blogger too.

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  12. babyface finlayson (profile) says:

    lamhdearg2
    ” I think any “hymn” the bands play will be linked in some way, by some wit, with a “sectarian” angle,”
    I am sure there are plenty of hymns that could not be seen to be in any way offensive or provocative.
    Playing that particular tune at that particular point, could only be seen as a deliberate thumbing of the nose to the parades commission and to local residents.
    I hope good sense will prevail, and all goes off peacefully.

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  13. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    Mr Donnelly did speak well. I don’t want to play the man, but I was kind of expecting him to troll just a little bit…. But he didn’t.

    Andnowwhat,

    The problem is that Loyalist communities are given a sense of grievance by their Politicians. Unionists have been doing it for centuries. I would admit that Nationalists can be mopey but it pales in comparison to that…..

    These episodes just show how unionism fails unionists, particularly the poorest Unionists. Its always been that way. The big question is whether Nationalists can fill the void, even just a little bit.

    In fact the whole Covenant commeration has been a failure before it even started. By completely focusing it around the Orange Order, they’ve excluded all catholics and missed an opportunity. Hopefully Nationalists won’t do the same when the Rising centenary comes up

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  14. Alias (profile) says:

    “These episodes just show how unionism fails unionists, particularly the poorest Unionists. Its always been that way.”

    You can’t blame socio-economic deprivation on unionists in a power-sharing regime.

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  15. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    Yeah you can. Particularly when they hold the economic levers in Stormont and support the most right wing economic policies in Westminster

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  16. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    We’ve seen Nigel Dodds kiss David Cameron’s arse in Westminster. For decade upon decade, working class unionists and loyalists voted for the Northern Ireland branch of the Conservative party.

    Nowadays, Sinn Fein are also effectively doing the same by handing things over to the DUP and the UUP, previously, on health.

    Just to reiterate. I will never vote until I can vote for who will run my country. Anything else is not democracy.

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  17. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Lionel

    The statelet ( I use the term advisedly base on Eammon Pheonix’s use of the term) was based on scare mongering. They had enough industrial muscle in Belfast to fight their case but that’s for another thread.

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  18. Lionel Hutz you hit the nail on the head. Of course both sides are deficient in appreciation of the other side, but it’s not proportionate and why would it be, given our history? I watched the Nolan Show earlier and drew the conclusion as to which side was angrier, and the loyalist side came out far more vociferous. At an early point in my notice of the
    ‘troubles’ I saw a TV programme conducted by David Frost in which he invited women from the Shankhill to appear in the aftermath of the end of Stormont in late March 1972 and he professed himself utterly shocked at the hatred emanating from this group who couldn’t contain themselves from exposing their sectarian venom against their neighbours. What has really changed since in this hole?

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  19. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Daniel, the DUP guy seemed unwilling to quash the idea that the Catholics had it great.

    He just didn’t seem to give a damn

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  20. What many younger folk won’t know is that, for many many years, working class Protestants were fooled into supporting their upper class masters in their very comfortable lives, by feeling that they were better off than “the enemy”. No matter that they were living in poverty just like their neighbours of a different “Christian” sect. They were made to feel superior. Now that that is no longer the case, some are just plain confused. They still want to lay their grievances against themmuns rather than realizing that they were indeed fooled.

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  21. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Just to check….are unionists saying that violence is ok against he majority wishes so long as it I’d for the union?

    Just checking

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  22. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Joe

    Can they not think for themselves? For frig sake, they voted for the anti working class Tory party. They knew full well what it was. It said in the title

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  23. PeterBrown (profile) says:

    Off topic at all lads? Not happy discussing the issue in hand anymore? Whataboutery much? It appears that the reference to failure to hold direct talks in the PC determination may be a criticism of the residents rather than OO so now we are trying to divert attention to the economic history of unionism – have you not get anhything to say about the topic in hand? If not then leave and start your own thread….

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  24. John Ó Néill (profile) says:

    Lamhdearg2 – do you genuinely believe that or do you just hope someone else will?

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  25. tacapall (profile) says:

    “Orange Order: No one will have veto over our Ulster Covenant parade”

    Finally the Orange Orders have evolved into the 21st century and accepted that residents have rights.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-19738517

    “Order changes policy on talking to residents’ groups”

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  26. John Ó Néill (profile) says:

    @tacapall – there appears to be some choreography around this that was agreed beforehand. Oddly, as PC determination explicitly forbids music during a service, all the St. Patrick’s or St. Matthews parish priest has to do is organise a service to coincide with the parade passing so that there is no possibility that we get that same nonsense of playing The Sash and pretending it was incidental as it was once used for a hymn.

    The Orders still need some level of contention around this parade as the appetite for parades just isn’t there.

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  27. tacapall (profile) says:

    “all the St. Patrick’s or St. Matthews parish priest has to do is organise a service to coincide with the parade passing so that there is no possibility that we get that same nonsense of playing The Sash and pretending it was incidental as it was once used for a hymn.”

    Which reinforces the need John for the loyal orders to engage in an open and non preconditional fashion with local residents and parishioners in areas where parades have an adverse effect on the the local population. Talking about choreographed events, the Nolan show last night seemed to fit that same definition.

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  28. John Ó Néill (profile) says:

    I was thinking of previous occasions where the Order did some limited engagement, got what it perceived as a favourable determination the stuck two fingers up at everyone involved. I doubt either priest is even considering that option, but ultimately it would be a veto if we had the same preamble as that Black Saturday with letters to press and bra-burning before the parade.

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  29. tacapall (profile) says:

    Yes John agreed that they have done this in the past but the recent joint statement from the leaders of the DUP and UUP that the Orange Orders are responsible for the conduct of those taking part in parades should nullify that option.

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  30. carl marks (profile) says:

    ArdoyneUnionist (profile)
    26 September 2012 at 2:52 pm

    Carl marks, I do so much enjoy how you and other republican posters on here know not just my thinking but the thinking of the unionist posters on this board.

    Carl now you can tell us what I and the other unionists are thinking about the decision of the chairman of Carrickhill residents group not to meet with the Loyal Orders and the parish priest of St Patrick’s not once but twice???

    Oh I think your mealy mouthed condemnation of loyalist violence tell us all how you think, now i don’t want to patronise you but this site is somewhere that you post your thoughts and beliefs so other people will understand them, then when you post something as stupid and sectarian as
    “And for your info the Loyalist rioting at Clifton street was wrong, do you know why because it played right into the hands of Irish republicans, and give them a chance to display their MOPE’ry.”
    Then we can make up our minds no paranormal powers needed.
    Your second point,
    the decision of the chairman of Carrickhill residents group not to meet with the Loyal Orders and the parish priest of St Patrick’s not once but twice???
    You see the OO made it quite clear that he wasn’t invited as chair of the group and since a perfectively reasonable demand of the group is that they be talked to as a group he would have been a very foolish man to fall for such a simple and transparent trick. But that’s what I think you will have to tell us what you think.
    For example if a loyalist community group wished to meet a nationalist politician to discuss say the noise of the Ardoyne fleadh and the politician said we will not meet them as a group since we don’t recognise the right of that group to exist but if one of them wishes to tag along to another meeting as a private citizen with no right to be heard as a representative of his/her group they would be foolish to turn up.
    But we are making progress at least you have dropped the “isolated loyalist Hesketh” nonsense

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  31. andnowwhat. The silence from ‘the mainland’ about the centenary of treachery against George V, is deafening. Must be terribly disappointing that their paymasters haven’t joined in the ‘celebrations’ Not a single unionist invited on question time. tonight. Wee jeffrey will be furious at this slight. Chris Donnelly had a good contribution, and the audience were remarkably quiet throughout. Too embarassed I suppose.

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  32. Carl Marks. The precious hair splitting by the OO over the residents proves the point I made on another thread, that they can’t adfford to have talks with residents because their own people would see that they got permision to their coat trailing so the march would be pointless. They are tying themselves in knots to avoid this happening.

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  33. obviously I wrote the last post without having heard the news during talkback. This is a turnip for the books and no mistake. I wonder how many in the OO were consulted before Gibson announced this about turn on talks with resident groups as this is clearly an attempt to wrongfoot the latter. However this may only succeed in reducing the OO membership since there will be so many restrictions on the conduct of the marchers that it won’t be worth the candle. After the way Drumcree march in 97 was followed by the jig by paisley and Trimble after they got down the garvaghy road, they never did again, so resident’s groups won’t be caught napping again.

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  34. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    So are we all looking forward to a good day out then, now that everything is settled.

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  35. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    DDB

    EVERY single hotel room across greater Belfast being sold out

    Nonsense. A simple google search will show that not EVERY room across Belfast is sold out.

    You’re blowing smoke up your own arse!

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  36. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    danielsmoran

    What channel was that Question time on?

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  37. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    “You see the OO made it quite clear that he wasn’t invited as chair of the group”
    I must have missed that carl, got a link, One wonders why he in particular would have been asked (twice), drawn out of a hat perhaps.
    Mr Irvine said on talkback, he was asked as chairman of the res, its a wonder he (winkie) has not been called out on this.

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  38. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    John, both.

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  39. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    Lamhdearg,

    Page 11 of today’s Irish News. Fr Sheehan said that he was asked a parishioners.

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  40. Dont Drink Bleach (profile) says:

    galloglaigh:

    DDB

    EVERY single hotel room across greater Belfast being sold out

    Nonsense. A simple google search will show that not EVERY room across Belfast is sold out.

    You’re blowing smoke up your own arse!

    .
    You can do a Google search into the future and see that not every hotel room in Belfast will be booked out next 12th July???

    You’re some talent boy.

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  41. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    So what you’re saying DDB, is that you’re a liar because all the rooms aren’t booked out yet.

    I don’t get your point? Maybe that’s the problem – You don’t have one?

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  42. Dont Drink Bleach (profile) says:

    Come back to me on the 12th and if there’s a hotel room free in Belfast then you may have a point.

    (You won’t though…)

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  43. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    Nice evasion there, but there are still hotel rooms available this Saturday. So I guess the next time you try to blow smoke up your own arse, you’ll make sure that it’s not squeaking loudly first?

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  44. Dont Drink Bleach (profile) says:

    I never mentioned this Saturday a chara.

    I was talking about the 12th each year when it is a well-known fact that every hotel room in Belfast Is fully booked.

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  45. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    lionel, cut and paste all of what the fr sheehan said. then we can discuss.

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  46. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    It’s a well known loyalist opinion that every hotel room in Belfast is fully booked for Bigotfest: Fact is pushing it.

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  47. Neil (profile) says:

    Worth noting that hotels are generally hard to come by in the second week of July, but I think it would be pushing it pretty damn hard to suggest everyone comes here for the twelfth. Many of them wouldn’t have heard of it when they booked their tickets, some people come to Belfast just to visit the city as opposed to attend a regularly described sectarian festival that is usually marred by violence and is always attended by the blue baggers. Just a thought.

    As you love to complain, you don’t get great press. That may be a reflection of reality as opposed to a conspiracy.

    Nice segment on UTV news there about the traders in Belfast worrying about the loss of the pay weekend’s biggest day. Then about half a dozen people, five saying they wouldn’t come near the town on Saturday and one saying she would.

    Cue ‘the media’s against us, BBC, UTV all against us. Again this may not be a conspiracy.

    Just to set Gav’s mind at rest there are a veritable plethora of hotels available in and around the city this weekend. Of course that was an internet search, and as we know, the internet’s against Unionists, out to get them, always has been. Lol.

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  48. gallowglaig Th Question Time season starts tonight at 11.05 on BBC1 after the local BBC replacement for Hearts and Minds.

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  49. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    Cheers. Is it a covenant Question Time, or were you refering to the Nolan Show?

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  50. galloglaigh Only the Belfast BBC would give over a full debate programme of interest only here, so, no, London’s Question Time producers wouldn’t expect many in Britain to watch that. Even Nolan last night, didn’t fill his hour with it.
    They tried four times to offload us between 2912 and Partition so even that heavy a hint for us to go away, didn’t work.

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  51. that 2912 should have been 1912 of course

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  52. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    So was chris, good on Question time?.

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  53. lamhdearg2 (profile) black spot black spot says:

    About 100 Carrick Hill residents held talks on Thursday evening to air their concerns.Frank Dempsey, of the residents’ group said he did not want people from outside the area joining the protest.Sinn Fein’s Gerry Kelly who was at the meeting said everyone supported Mr Dempsey.”He has the whole district behind him. He has said he doesn’t want trouble, the residents have said they don’t want trouble,” said Mr Kelly.

    “When you get a circumstance like that, you’ve that type of unity, then anyone who might consider coming here looking for trouble, will know that they will not be welcome.” edited cut and paste from the bbc.

    Nothing as yet from the RNU, or A.R., its seems Carrick hill” is a place S.F. feel they can hold sway, Good.

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  54. UserAinm (profile) says:

    So, fair play to these guys then?

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  55. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    Nothing either from the OO/Shankil UVF about band supporters and restrictions. It’s funny… Stephen Nolan seems to have had a conversation with the dogs on the street – vis~a~vis Winkie and his motley ‘crew’. I actually enjoyed Nolan for once!

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  56. UserAinm (profile) says:

    I thought for sure Nolan was going to get a dig in the gub backstage from Winkie.

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  57. What happened to my last post a minute ago. Censored?

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  58. John Ó Néill (profile) says:

    Daniel – I just checked and there is no other post here.

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