Slugger online debate: What’s eating Ardoyne (take two)…

This is partly a reminder of tomorrow’s lunch time discussion, and partly an attempt to reset the thread that from the first comment actually went on to discuss a video taken outside St Patrick’s church in Donegall Street where (depending on who’s version of the truth you choose) a marching band chose play an old American classic, or The Famine Song.

Either way, the video demonstrates just how intense the feelings are around this time of year (the ‘who’ of the video making may have been just as important as the ‘what’ he was doing). And that’s no matter how much good work gets done in between:

Anyway, back to tomorrow’s hang out discussion. The public version should start at 1pm (barring unforeseen technical hitches), though I’m likely to be online for direct participants inside G+ from about 12.30 onwards.

I’d like to keep it to 45 minutes – hour, one so that those who want to can stay the whole way through; and two on the basis that although I want to keep things informal the tighter the timeframe the more watchable it will be afterwards on YouTube…

Whilst, as noted above, the controversy over the weekend has moved to the band playing outside St Patricks Church. We can have some time for this, but I do want to keep our collective eye on Ardoyne.

The lack of resolution to the Holy Cross issue is more relevant to that community and its feelings about the Loyal Orders than bands playing ‘party songs’ when the march halts outside a Catholic Church.

I think we do have to make some decisions on this ‘pre production’ in order not to get looped into distracting whataboutery issues. And I’d like to have some broad understanding (if not ‘agreement’) on what’s in and what’s out before we set off.

There’s enough of these kinds of distractions in the ‘spun world’. And I’d like this session to try to unspin the issues as much as is possible.

If you are still unsure what a Google plus hangout is check out the Slugger Consults blog. Otherwise, register at Google Plus and make sure you ‘circle’ me at gplus.to/mickfealty.

For those in my G+ circles (making it purely public creates all manner of management issues), I’ll be in a small informal hangout this evening between 9 and 10 to take questions and start to informally begin to curate an agenda for tomorrow which will be posted on the event page here…

If you just want to watch, I plan to have a parallel thread on Slugger with a coded embed to the ‘live’ ‘on air’ stream from YouTube…

And if you are still completely confused, drop me an email to: editor@sluggerotoole.com

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  • The Lodger

    “Lodger,

    If nationalists delighted in burning union flags to the extent that you assume, then it would be a far more common occurrence in NI than it currently is. The only community for whom flag-burning is a regular, almost normal form of family entertainment, is your own.

    Sort it out.”

    SK,

    It will be a common occurence in the middle of August. Just as it is every year. We’ll see how much excitement and outrage that will provoke.

  • carl marks

    Lads you’re wasting your time, I tried to debate with Ardoyne unionist on the other Ardoyne thread and he doesn’t seem to recognise loyalist violence, thinks the riots in Ardoyne are part of a plot to take over the Hesketh Area, believes that The Hesketh area is isolated and not beside Silverstrean or Ballysillen,and doesn’t recognise that OO parades ever where the scene of violence until the SF organised it, oh yes and I’m a troll who never lived in Ardoyne. So good luck boys

  • The Lodger

    More interesting questions might be why do Orange parades in certain areas drive republicans into paroxyms of rage, and why does this only occur in the afternoon?

    Or why are they so passionate about a flag which supposedly celebrates peace between orange and green when they so obviously hate the orange?

    Or why can areas which are so engulfed with republican violence during parades one year be so utterly quiet on another?

  • carl marks

    The Lodger

    More interesting questions might be why do Orange parades in certain areas drive republicans into paroxyms of rage, and why does this only occur in the afternoon?

    As to the only occur in the afternoon you can’t expect your average social rioting lout to be awake before 1.30 then he has to get his mates together and make their way to Ardoyne and when the dissies organise these things they have to take this into account re timing.
    AS to why OO parades annoy nationalists around Ardoyne, we could go into the relationship between the OO and the loyalist terror groups (we see people who are known members of terror groups, those sent to jail for very serious crimes, and also those who were involved in the holy cross picket at these events as marchers bandsman and supporters), link that to the sectarian venom that comes with it for example The burning of Irish Flags and Emblems along with Catholic Imagery at bonfires, and sick events outside St Pats.
    If the OO wants Nationalist not to get annoyed about the parades then acting in a civilised manner would help greatly.
    Ardoyne Residents have been trying to talk to the OO for years and met a stone wall every time.
    There are reasons for you to chew over.

  • The Lodger

    carl marks,

    I agree with you on point one. Though I would include the requirement to have a few hours of dutch courage once the sun has gone over the yard arm.

    On point two I have to query why people who overwhelmingly support republican terrorists should feel such a hatred for an organisation which has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters. Especially when they (republicans) made so much out of insisting that unionist politicians must sit down and negotiate with republican mass murderers. It stinks rather of double standards.

  • carl marks

    On point two I have to query why people who overwhelmingly support republican terrorists should feel such a hatred for an organisation which has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters. Especially when they (republicans) made so much out of insisting that unionist politicians must sit down and negotiate with republican mass murderers. It stinks rather of double standards.
    When has the OO codemmed terrorisn from all quartersperhaps you could provide me with refereences for the codemmation of the shankill butchers or maybe you could tell what Billy Wright was doing hob nobing with unionist polticians and senior orangemen. at Dumcree and the many other times the OO has used loyalist terror groups as it muscle. please you are talking to people who have lived here for a long time.

  • The Lodger

    carl marks,

    The OO has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters. The people who oppose their parades have consistently supported republican terrorism. That is a fact.

  • Mister_Joe

    I think what The Lodger is saying is that Republicans who used violence are terrorists and Loyalists who opposed that with equal violence are defenders of the faith or something like that. And so, their terror was justified, so not really terrorism.

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    “The OO has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters.”
    I dont believe that is a fact,
    please show me your proof !! six press statements will do.

    “The people who oppose their parades have consistently supported republican terrorism.”
    please show me your proof !! I dont nor never have supported republican terrorism.so that is quite plainly not a fact.

  • carl marks

    Mister_Joe
    Yes I think in this instant Terrorism is something only the other side does so if the OO doesn’t condemn loyalist terrorism then that’s because there is no loyalist terrorism.

  • Zig70

    The OO was never dumb enough to openly support terrorism. A lesson the nationalist still haven’t learned. How long will it take? Some day they might learn to give a slap while smiling.

  • Mister_Joe

    Zig,

    Can you point to, for example, the nationalist SDLP ever supporting terrorism?

  • carl marks

    The OO was never dumb enough to openly support terrorism. A lesson the nationalist still haven’t learned. How long will it take? Some day they might learn to give a slap while smiling.
    So Standing beside a sash wearing BillyWright at a tine when the group he l was leader of, was killing random Catholics is not openly supporting terrorisn. Come On.
    and are you also saying that secertly supporting terror is somehow a more moral stance.this explains a lot about some posters on this site, could i sum it up as;
    Dont Do As I Do, Do As I Say

  • Zig70

    No, my point is I’m not sure you can point to an example in recent history were the OO openly said they support terrorism and hence their supporters can claim it. All you can do is point to their actions, who they share a podium with, who they march with and say they very much look like supporting terrorism. Nationalist are rarely as cute. Some warped morality were they wear their heart on the sleeve. Strategically stupid. I believe Mr Lodger probably knows the history of the OO back to the 1700s but wouldn’t let the facts get in the way of belief.

  • Zig70

    My ‘no’ was to Joe.

  • Fergie Pie

    When did Billy Wright ever wear a sash??

  • Mister_Joe

    Confusing sash with slash.

  • carl marks

    Fergie Pie
    When did Billy Wright ever wear a sash??
    At Dumcree the same day he had a meeting with David Trimble, there is footage of him wearing one.

  • carl marks

    Zig70
    All you can do is point to their actions, who they share a podium with, who they march with and say they very much look like supporting terrorism.
    Wow now there is hair-splitting of an Olympic standard.
    ON one hand the OO will have not talk with (Nationalist) terrorists or their supporters; after all decent people don’t talk too such people. On the other hand you can share a podium or March with (loyalist) terrorists and the decent people don’t talk rule doesn’t apply.

  • carl marks

    sorry Zig misread your post thought you were supporting Lodger. again sorry.

  • The Lodger

    “I think what The Lodger is saying is that Republicans who used violence are terrorists and Loyalists who opposed that with equal violence are defenders of the faith or something like that. And so, their terror was justified, so not really terrorism.”

    Mr Joe,

    That is a couple of times now that you have totally misrepresented what I have said and frankly it is starting to become just a little bit tiresome.

  • The Lodger

    Carl Marks,

    The OO has consistently opposed terrorism. That is a fact. If you can produce any evidence of the OO supporting terrorism in the way that SF did then please do so.

    The residents groups which oppose OO parades are fronted by and composed of Sinners and Dissidents both of whom support terrorism. The fact that you oppose terrorism personally is commendable, but it must make it very difficult for you to express your hatred of the OO without finding yourself standing alongside people who support murder.

  • galloglaigh

    The OO has consistently opposed terrorism

    No it hasn’t. It feeds off unionist terrorism. The core of its support in urban areas, and in many border rural areas, is drawn from unionist terrorists and their supporters. All you have to do is look at the bands they use – The UVF and YCV are prominent in bands and banners. And cut the auld Somme melarky. That’s auld hat!

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    “The residents groups which oppose OO parades are fronted by and composed of Sinners and Dissidents both of whom support terrorism. The fact that you oppose terrorism personally is commendable, but it must make it very difficult for you to express your hatred of the OO without finding yourself standing alongside people who support murder.”

    Your consistent refusal to see that Nationalists oppose parades because of the history (which you don’t seem to believe in) of the OO, the relationship it had and still has with loyalist terrorist, we are neither blind or stupid when we see those who are known UDA/UVF men many of whom have served time for terrorist offences and many also who were leaders in the Holy Cross protest. The sectarian chants and the burning of our flags and symbols at bonfires organised in many cases by many of those present, sorry to have to repeat myself but you completely miss the point that both sides here have very dirty hands and if those opposing the March’s are wallowing with the pigs, then so are you.

  • The Lodger

    “No it hasn’t. It feeds off unionist terrorism. The core of its support in urban areas, and in many border rural areas, is drawn from unionist terrorists and their supporters. ”

    Absolute rubbish. Is that the sort of nonsense that republican propagandists tell you in Scotland?

  • The Lodger

    “Your consistent refusal to see that Nationalists oppose parades because of the history (which you don’t seem to believe in) of the OO, the relationship it had and still has with loyalist terrorist, we are neither blind or stupid when we see those who are known UDA/UVF men many of whom have served time for terrorist offences and many also who were leaders in the Holy Cross protest.”

    Carl marks,

    I’m sorry to have to keep repeating myself, but I will refer you again to the post which I made at 1035 on the 23rd of July.

    “I have to query why people who overwhelmingly support republican terrorists should feel such a hatred for an organisation which has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters. Especially when they (republicans) made so much out of insisting that unionist politicians must sit down and negotiate with republican mass murderers. It stinks rather of double standards. “

  • The Lodger

    Carl marks,

    And just to expand on that in case you are struggling (Mr Joe like) to understand what I am saying.

    The OO has consistently condemed terrorism, but has been noted to have tenuous links with some loyalist terrorists. Sinn Fein is inextricably linked with a terrorist organisation which murdered more people in Northern Ireland than any other. The people who get all outraged about the existence of the OO are the very same people who support SF, or latterly their more extreme rivals. Therefore the argument by Sinners that it is acceptable to hate Orangemen because Billy Wright turned up one day wearing a collarrette is nonsensical.

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    I believe that I asked you for proof that the OO has consistently condemned terrorism, now none of us doubt that they have consistently condemned Republican terrorist actions, but I ask you to show a half dozen or so press releases or videos of senior Orangemen speaking on behalf of the OO out rightly condemning a loyalist terror action with no ifs, buts, or maybes.
    Tenuous links yes if it was just once Billy Wright wearing a Colleratte but that day he also met with Harold Gracey, then we would have to ignore all the times that when the OO didn’t get its way it used the loyalists as muscle in street rioting, while we are at it we can forget about all the people who went to prison for terrorist crimes who were also members of the OO, and of course let’s not mention again the bonfires with symbol burning or indeed nobody mention the long history of public disorder surrounding OO parades which has been going on long long before anybody alive today can remember.
    Have I covered Everything or is there anything else that we will pretend never happened.

  • tacapall

    The lodger the Orange Order and its membership from its formation has been involved in or incited violence to get its way, read up on its history. The trail of death and destruction that has accompanied its parades is proof if its needed that it has no moral high ground to lecture anyone about terrorism nor has those law abiding Unionists who support the Unionist right to cause violence and death for no other reason other than the right to parade down a road. There are over 3000 loyalist parades every year here and the vast majority pass without incident or objection with the exception of a few. If you believe what you say about the Order being opposed to terrorism and respects the civil and religious liberties of everyone on this island then why is it worth risking the loss of life or violence to parade down some road simply because you believe you have a god given right to march on that road. When is the Orange Order going to reach out to the Nationalist population and convince them that their civil and religious liberties are being embraced or that the Orange culture is an open house for everyone regardless of religion.

  • galloglaigh

    Scotland? Have I moved? The OO continually use unionist terrorists to prop up their protests. Be it Lisburn in 1920, Drumcree in 1997, or the Ardoyne in 2012, it’s reality. You can put as much butter on a piece of shite as you like. It’s still a piece of shite.

  • the future’s bright, the future’s orange

    The OO have consistantly condemned a range of both ‘loyalist’ and ‘republican’ violence:
    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/press/violence.html

  • The Lodger

    Carl marks,

    You refer to Billy Wright meeting with Harold Gracey as being a sustainable argument for your gatred of the OO. Wouldn’t this have been around about the same time as John Hume was busily meeting with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness whilst PIRA was actively killing people?

    You can list people who were in the OO who went to prison etc to your heart’s content, but you are continually and wilfully missing my point.

    The people who lead the protests against the OO state that they hate them because of their links with terrorists. They are the very same people who insisted that republican terrorists had to be accepted into our government and treated with ‘parity of esteem’.

    Are you incapable of seeing the inconsistency and hypocrisy here?

    Republicans are excellent at listing grievances which they cite as excuses for the sectarian hatred they have of Orangemen. Yet they are openly associated with SF/PIRA and the dissident groupings and demand that this should not be held against them.

    Rank double standards.

  • The Lodger

    “Scotland? Have I moved?”

    Galloglaigh,

    I can only assume then that you don’t even know what your own name means.

  • The Lodger

    “When is the Orange Order going to reach out to the Nationalist population and convince them that their civil and religious liberties are being embraced or that the Orange culture is an open house for everyone regardless of religion.”

    tapacall,

    Perhaps when the Nationalist population stops attacking them.

  • The Lodger

    “You can put as much butter on a piece of shite as you like. It’s still a piece of shite.”

    And you won’t get a much better example of naked sectarian hatred than that.

  • dwatch

    Slow but steady march on road to peaceful parades.
    Things are starting to look up for the Orange Order. The marching season passed its peak with less unrest and tension than probably at any time in the past 40 years.

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/ed-curran/slow-but-steady-march-on-road-to-peaceful-parades-16188359.html#ixzz21XN39K6q

  • carl marks

    Again the completely unfounded claim that anybody opposed to the parade is a supporter of republican terror. I do not hate the OO, life’s too short for that nonsense but I think that they should grow up and take a honest look at themselves, stop living in this Narnia you have made up. Stop all this hatred expressed at bonfires etc, stop trying to ride roughshod over everyone else and stop the black propaganda you direct towards anybody who dares to object to your white hat/black hat view of things. And stop treating your neighbours like shite. Try talking with them, instead of at them.

  • The Lodger

    Carl Marks,

    I suggest that you take the mote out of your own eye my friend, because you have just listed the things which you are doing yourself.

  • wee buns

    Norman Coopey, a member of OO, murdered young James Morgan in 1997, but no action was taken by them against him.

    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/loyalist-killer-jailed-for-hammer-horror-420511.html

  • The Lodger

    wee buns,

    Bik McFarlane machine gunned and bombed a pub full of Protestants murdering men and women and he is today a senior member of Sinn Fein.

  • wee buns

    That does not change the fact that your statement is wrong –
    ”The OO has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters”
    They have not.

  • The Lodger

    wee buns,

    Er, yes they have and I posted the links to prove it.

    Are you a republican by the way?

  • wee buns

    OO stopped outside the prison where Gusty Spence was being held and saluted him. Some Belfast Orders salute the Shankill Butchers.

    There is no consistent condemnation no matter how far back you go.
    Lord Gosford described the OO as ‘lawless banditti’.

    The Royal Commission in 1857 after riots in Belfast said the ‘Orange system’ had ‘led to violence, outrage and religious animosity and hatred between classes and bloodshed’.

    Unionism without opposition to Catholics – would collapse.

  • sonofstrongbow

    3,2,1 and he’s back in the room.

    Irish Nationalists frequently cite the ‘3000’ Orange Parades at the same time as they lambast the organisation as hate-filled violence junkies.

    How is it that these demons in bowler hats can parade so often and so widely without their ogreish natures visiting violence across the land?

    Indeed it seems that violence ensues only when Nationalists choose to have a go at them, and of course the police as well.

    Given that Nationalists, allegedly, are compelled to travel many miles to throw a brick how do these ‘crazed sectarian bigots’ of the Orange Order restrain themselves as they march all over the show?

  • The Lodger

    wee buns,

    Sinn Fein consistently celebrate and laug PIRA’s forty year terror campaign and they actively promote some of the most disgusting sectarian murderers on this island.

    I’m pretty sure that my point is eluding you.

  • The Lodger

    “Indeed it seems that violence ensues only when Nationalists choose to have a go at them”

    Sonofstrongbow,

    Exactly and there are many other inconsistencies with the nationalist/republican narrative. For instance not that long ago a Sunday church parade in Rasharkin had republicans frothing at the mouth and breaking into sporadic violence. Yet this year the 12th of July was held there without any trouble. What changed? Surely the Sinners didn’t decide to de-escalate the protests in an area which they still control?

  • The Lodger

    wee buns,

    It is fascinating by the way how far back in time you have to trawl in order to express your hatred of orangemen.

  • dwatch

    “How is it that these demons in bowler hats can parade so often and so widely without their ogreish natures visiting violence across the land?”

    The Bowler Hat is considered the headdress of the highest respectability in the Orange Order. Afterall, birettas are worn especially by Roman Catholic clergy and are black for priests, purple for bishops, and red for cardinals and white for the Pope. Never heard an Orangeman call a member of the Catholic Clergy a demon.

  • Fergie Pie

    carl marks (profile)
    24 July 2012 at 9:01 am

    When did Billy Wright ever wear a sash??

    At Dumcree the same day he had a meeting with David Trimble, there is footage of him wearing one.

    – – – –

    Presumably you can provide photographic or video evidence of Billy Wright wearing an Orange Order sash on the day he was at Drumcree?

    Otherwise I’ll have to call you out as a liar…

  • dwatch

    Billy Wright is shown here in two photos without wearing a sash. First photo he is with DUP MP William McCrea. Second photo he is in company of others who are wearing sashes but he does not have a sash on.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11164817

  • wee buns

    Norman Coopey, the man jailed for the brutal sectarian murder of 16 year-old James Morgan, was never expelled from the Orange Order. Instead, Coopey “was allowed to resign” after immense public pressure.

    Such a pity that the OO continues to fail to condemn terrorism.
    Father of UVF murder victim John Allen, who resigned from the OO in 2003 claiming that his son’s killers had been allowed to remain within the institution;

    “I did not want to do this as I have been proud to be a member of the Orange Order for 28 years and my father was a member for 45 years,” John Allen Snr. said.

    What a wonderful act of integrity by John Allen Snr.

    ‘Consistent condemnation of terrorism’ by the OO?
    – I’m afraid not.

  • The Lodger

    wee buns,

    I have provided consistent links which prove that the OO does indeed condemn terrorism. The fact that a few individual criminals have remained in their ranks does not alter that undeniable fact in any way.

    I must say that I am confused as to why a republican would be so upset about this when the organisations that he supports actively celebrate terrorism, promote terrorists and in fact in many cases view a past career in murder as an essential springboard for a political career.

  • tacapall

    The Lodger regardless of what past history “some not all” Shinners have, they do not go about the country demanding to parade down whatever road takes their fancy and going by your attitude I have no doubt if Sinn Fein did decide to play you at your own game and organised a republican parade with tricolors etc through your neighbourhood you would be the first out on to the street to protest and to be honest I would agree with you but this sticking your head in the sand and refusing to believe when it comes to violence incited by Orangemen and their supporters is sickening.

    …there is a difference between being convinced and being stubborn. I’m not certain what the difference is, but I do know that if you butt your head against a stone wall long enough, at some point you realize the wall is stone and that your head is

    “The Orange Order is a very broad church and it’s not my responsibility to say to people they can’t be members of various organisations,” Belfast County Grand Master Dawson Bailie, August 2000 when asked about Orange Order members involvement with unionist paramilitaries

    “They are on our side. We might not agree with everything they do but they have been helpful to brethren in north and west Belfast, and continued to defend Orange Order refusal to talk to residents.” Orange Order Belfast Deputy Grand Master McMurdie, July 2005, when asked about Orange Order links to unionist paramilitaries.

    You cant condemn violence or terrorism on one hand then praise those who carry it out on the other.

  • The Lodger

    “The Lodger regardless of what past history “some not all” Shinners have, they do not go about the country demanding to parade down whatever road takes their fancy”

    Tapacall,

    In fact they have demanded the right to march past places where they are absolutely detested, but that is by the by. They demand the right to be in government in a democratic country and the people who demand that right are the very same people who detest the Orange Order.

    Now have a little think about that. The people who profess to detest the OO because of some pretty tenuous links to terrorism are the same people who demand respect and parity for the biggest bunch of mass murderers in western Europe.

    How do you square that hypocrisy?

  • tacapall

    The lodger

    “In fact they have demanded the right to march past places where they are absolutely detested, but that is by the by”

    Where and when was this ?

    “They demand the right to be in government in a democratic country and the people who demand that right are the very same people who detest the Orange Order”

    Well they did stand for elections just like the DUP, they were voted in by the electorate, you know that’s the way democracy works, that’s why they are in government nothing else ! They demand nothing that any other party elected by the people get as normal.

    As for being the biggest bunch of mass murderers in Western Europe was it not you and others like you who said the leadership of the IRA were British agents, so in reality they were puppets for the British Government who were pulling the strings.

    So who were the mass murderers ? If you take your head out of the sand and read up on British colonialism and recent invasions into other countries Im sure you will find your answer.

    But nothing of the above answers the question. Is the demand to march where you please worth a human life ?

  • Mister_Joe

    The Lodger,

    Have you ever heard of the OO’s “military” wing, the Orange Volunteers?
    Here’s some of what they have been up to:

    1998

    31 Oct 1998: The OV claimed responsibility for a gun attack on a Catholic-owned pub on Colinglen Road, Belfast.[9]
    17 Dec 1998: The OV claimed responsibility for a blast bomb attack on a pub on Ballyganniff Road near Crumlin, County Antrim. It said it was an attempt to kill a senior IRA member.[10][11]
    17 Dec 1998: The OV claimed responsibility for throwing a grenade and firing shots at the home of a known republican in Castledawson, County Londonderry.[12]
    Dec 1998: The OV claimed responsibility for a gun and bomb attack on the home of a Catholic civilian in Knockcloghrim, County Londonderry.[13]

    1999

    19 Jan 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a pipe bomb attack on a house in Loughinisland, County Down. The man who lived there was wounded. The OV claimed that he was a “PIRA commander in South Down”.[5][12][14]
    06 Jan 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a booby-trap bomb attack on builders working on a Gaelic Athletic Association (GAA) club in Magherafelt, County Londonderry. A Catholic builder was injured.[13]
    08 Feb 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a grenade attack on a Catholic-owned pub near Toome, County Antrim.[5]
    09 Feb 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for an attack on a Catholic-owned pub in Castledawson, County Londonderry. It also claimed responsibility for planting a pipe bomb outside a pub in Crumlin.[5]
    01 Mar 1999: A bomb was found on the windowsill of a Catholic-owned house in Coalisland, County Tyrone. It is believed the OV were responsible.[15]
    03 Mar 1999: The United Kingdom designated the OV, along with the Red Hand Defenders (RHD), as terrorist organizations.[16]
    23 Mar 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a booby-trap bomb attack at a scrapyard on Station Road, Castlewellan, County Down. One man was injured.[5][14]
    24 Mar 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a grenade attack on the Derryhirk Inn near Aghagallon, County Antrim.[5][17]
    26 Mar 1999: The OV were blamed for planting a pipe bomb outside the home of a Catholic family in Randalstown, County Antrim.[17]
    10 Apr 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a pipe bomb attack on a pub near Templepatrick, County Antrim. One man was injured.[5]
    25 Apr 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a grenade attack on a house in the Legoneil area of Belfast.[5]
    28 Apr 1999: The OV claimed responsibility for a pipe bomb attack on the Ramble Inn pub in County Antrim. Several cars were damaged.[5]
    Autumn 1999: In a series of police raids aimed at dissident loyalists, eight arrests were made while weapons and ammunition were found during a search of Stoneyford Orange Hall in County Antrim. Police also found military files containing the personal details of over 300 republicans from south Armagh and Belfast.[citation needed]

    2000 onward

    Jun 2000: The OV threatened to kill GAA officials in the run-up to the Ulster Gaelic football championships.[18]
    29 Aug 2000: The OV claimed responsibility for burning-down Brennan’s Bar in west Belfast.[19]
    28 Sep 2000: The OV declared that it had ceased all “military activity”.[18]
    Jul 2001: The OV claimed responsibility of killing Catholic 19 year old Ciaran Cummings in a shooting in County Antrim. However, the Red Hand Defenders (paramilitary with strong links with OV) also claimed responsibility. In 2007 an inquest heard that the Red Hand Defenders and the OV may have worked together in the killing [20]
    06 Dec 2001: The United States designated the OV and Red Hand Defenders (RHD) as “terrorist organizations”.[21]
    27 Dec 2001: The OV declared that it would be ceasing “military operations” after 31 December 2001. It is understood the group decided to go on ceasefire after a plea by a senior clergyman.[22]

    02 Aug 2002: Sinn Féin’s Alex Maskey, ­the new Lord Mayor of Belfast, was sent a bullet in the post. The death threat has been attributed to the OV. It arrived at City Hall in Belfast only hours before Maskey was to take part in a rally against sectarianism.[23]

    Sep 2003: The OV were believed to have been responsible for a number of attacks on Catholic-owned houses and the Catholic church in Stoneyford.[24]

    10 Feb 2004: Two men boarded a bus in the loyalist Milltown Estate near Lisburn and severely beat the Catholic driver, warning him that he would be shot by the OV if he returned to the area.[25]

    26 Sep 2008: The OV were believed to have been behind an arson arrack on St Johns GAA club near Castlewellan, County Down. It is believed that the attack was revenge for attacks on Orange halls in the area.[26][27][28][29]
    08 Nov 2008: The OV claimed responsibility for burning-down Edendork GAA hall in County Tyrone. It claimed that it was revenge for attacks on Orange halls.[30][31]
    Nov 2008: Sinn Féin claimed that the OV was responsible for planting a pipe bomb near the home of a Sinn Féin councillor in Cookstown, County Tyrone.[32]
    02 Dec 2008: Sinn Féin minister Conor Murphy claimed to have been told by the Police Service of Northern Ireland of a recent attempt on his life by the OV in the Newry area.[33]

    9 Mar 2009: The OV claimed responsibility for planting a pipe bomb at Sinn Féin’s office on Burn Road in Cookstown, County Tyrone. It claimed that the attack was revenge for the Massereene Barracks shooting.[34]
    18 Aug 2009: In retaliation for attacks on Orange halls,[35] the OV claimed responsibility for attacks on Catholic and nationalist owned businesses in Garvagh, Rasharkin, Dunloy and Ballymoney.[36]
    24 Aug 2009: The OV claimed responsibility for planting a bomb at the back of a house on Smith Street, Moneymore, County Londonderry. It claimed it was retaliation for “republican attacks on Protestant property and churches” in the area. The bomb was made safe by the security forces.[37]

  • Alias

    “Is the demand to march where you please worth a human life ?”

    Is the demand not to march near where you live worth a human life? The OO doesn’t shoot at police officers during parades. I think you’ll find it’s the nationalists who do that.

  • The Lodger

    “Where and when was this ?”

    tapacall,

    The Shankill Road two years ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uYYZWv7f4U

    Being elected does not entitle you to a place in government especially when you are in the minority and you openly supported a murder campaign waged against the majority. They are in government because unionists have allowed them to be in government.

    If unionists are generous enough to allow the people who were murdering them into a power sharing government then why should it be too much for nationalists to allow an orange parade to make its way home from the 12th?

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    I’ve heard some wide eyed nonsense spouted down the years but claiming that the Orange Volunteers are the paramilitary wing of the OO is certainly a new low.

    I even posted a link for you which clearly showed the OO’s abhorence at a terrorist group using their name in vain in that way, but no doubt you missed it?

    http://www.grandorangelodge.co.uk/press/PressReleases-1999/990121-condemnation-of-violence.htm

    If not then your efforts to blacken the name of the OO in this discussion are nothing short of despicable.

  • PeterBrown

    Joe

    To be fair to describe the OV as the OO’s military wing based on the common use of orange in their name is a little bit rich – its the equivalent of equating the PIRA , CIRA & RIRA and in that case there would be a greater overlap in membership!

  • The Lodger

    Meanwhile in North Belfast the ongoing efforts to drive Protestants out of their houses continues.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Protestant-family-forced-to-leave-home/64cc8584-2e57-47d6-bee4-7784498a9895

  • dwatch

    Orange Volunteers’ threat condemned

    Published on Thursday 9 July 2009 15:32

    A LEADING Orangeman has hit out at an extreme loyalist paramilitary group which has threatened attacks on Catholic property.

    In a statement to the News Letter, the Orange Volunteers said they will be “monitoring attacks on Orange halls and other buildings”.

    A male caller, who gave a codeword, claiming to represent the North and South East Antrim Orange Volunteers, said: “Attacks (on Catholic property) will increase if they (attacks) are not stopped on Protestant buildings.”

    No admission of responsibility was made for a string of attacks on Wednesday night which saw five Catholic churches paint-bombed and a car burnt out on GAA grounds in the north Antrim area.

    Orange Volunteers’ threat condemned

    Last night Orange Order Grand Secretary Drew Nelson said the Orange Volunteers “besmirch the name of Orangeism”.

    Mr Nelson said his organisation does not condone the actions or statements of the Orange Volunteers.

    “We do not know who they are and have never had any contact with them,” he said.
    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/orange-volunteers-threat-condemned-1-1886511

  • Mister_Joe

    Peter,

    I said that tongue in cheek just to show that if “The Lodger” can spout nonsense, then so can others.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    What nonsense have I spouted?

  • Mister_Joe

    Almost too many to mention. Here’s an example:

    “The OO has consistently condemned terrorism from all quarters.” (c.f. During November 1999, in a raid on Stoneyford Orange Hall, which the Irish Times has reported as a focal point for the Orange Volunteers,[90] police found military documents with the personal details of over 300 Irish republicans.[91] This led to two Orangemen being convicted for possession of “documents likely to be of use to terrorists”, possession of an automatic rifle, and membership in the outlawed Orange Volunteers. Their Orange lodge refused to expel them.
    Now stop your trolling.

  • andnowwhat

    After the death of the Quinn brothers, the OO were asked to call off the Drumcree stand off by many but including David Timble. The supposed christian organisation, aware of the effects they were having throughout NI, refused to do so.

    On that very basic, being christian, the OO falls at the first hurdle

  • Fergie Pie

    Joe,

    That post about the OV is embarrassing.

    You have lost what little credibility you had on this site.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    I posted links which show the OO condemning terrorism from all quarters including the OVs. If anyone is trolling here it is you and I concur with the poster Fergie above. You have an agenda and it is not open and honest discussion on the subject at hand.

  • The Lodger

    andnowhat,

    You are perfectly entitled to be angry with the OO about the murder of the Quinn children even though it had nothing to do with them. However I fail to see what that situation has to do with the subject we are discussing. Do you feel that the Warrington bomb disqualifies Sinn Fein from office?

  • Mister_Joe

    There are far too many sock puppets around here. I wish Mick had the time to ferret them all out.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    You mean that you would like Mick to remove posters that you don’t agree with or like. I’m surprised that your consistent man playing goes unpunished.

  • Mister_Joe

    consistent man playing..

    When will the spouting of nonsense end?

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    Thank you for again proving my point.

  • Mister_Joe

    Whatever. Pointing out nonsense is not man playing. However, if the cap fits….

  • The Lodger

    Let me just once again set out the point that I have been trying to make as it is likely to lost amongst the personal attacks which are being made on me.

    Republicans claim that they detest the OO because they are linked with terrorists and that this justifies their efforts to dictate where they can or cannot parade. In order to back this up they site examples of a small number of individuals who are or were in the OO and who have been or are terrorists.

    They also talk about people like Billy Wright who were pictured amongst the Orangemen at Drumcree. Other examples dating back centuries will then be thrown in to ‘prove’ that the OO creates violence despite the fact that the violence is invariably directed at the OO.

    These are the same republicans who support and vote for Sinn Fein which is the political wing of the Provisional IRA. The organisation which murdered more people than any other organisation in Northern Ireland. The organisation which drove the Troubles for forty years.

    So the outrage which the republicans have for the OO’s tenuous links with terrorism is not expressed when it comes to SF’s very real and very obvious links to mass murder. Indeed the exact opposite manifests itself.

    I would suggest that the supposed outrage directed at the OO has absolutely nothing to do with ‘terrorist links’ and has everything to do with base sectarian hatred of Protestants. As I have stated here before the OO provides republicans with what they believe is an acceptable excuse for sectarianism.

    They purport not to hate Protestants, but show them one and they will provide you with an excuse for why they hate him in all but a very few circumstances.

    They even attcaked the gullible Protestant IRA idiots who had the temerity to march at Bodenstown.

  • Mister_Joe

    And we now have a new “most oppressed person ever”.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    Any comment on the North Belfast Protestant family that has been driven from their home this evening? I’ve seen you get mightily upset over a lot less yet that one seems to have somehow slipped past your radar.

    http://www.u.tv/News/Protestant-family-forced-to-leave-home/64cc8584-2e57-47d6-bee4-7784498a9895

  • anne warren

    hello – am back! have been busy with my mundane life – as Forbes described it . I don’t know how far behind I am in this discussion but I noticed
    Lodger wrote
    “If unionists are generous enough to allow the people who were murdering them into a power sharing government “

    Please note we are all bound by the GFA/BA
    Article 3:
    We are committed to partnership, equality and mutual respect as the
    basis of relationships within Northern Ireland, between North and South,
    and between these islands.
    http://www.nio.gov.uk/agreement.pdf/

    There’s nothing written there about “Unionist generosity”

    Why do we ordinary decent British people have to put up with the ravings of a distorted mindset like yours?
    Your memories are tainted by the foul breath of established prejudice.
    Its power has corrupted or subjugated your mind and others like yours.
    No one has any argument that can alter your predetermination, or convince you to mitigate what you are here to pronounce.
    The OO upholds its domination by displaying its power over Catholics, by lifting its hand in the name of God against fellow countrymen who believe or doubt a little more or a little less than the OO standard

    As an Englishwoman I have but one request to ask of the Lodger and his ilk — the charity of your silence!

  • Mister_Joe

    ..Any comment..

    Yes. Totally disgusting and I hope the perpetrators are caught, tried and, if convicted, sent to jail.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    That is big of you. Too bad you had to be prompted though eh?

  • The Lodger

    anne warren,

    Two points. First the GFA requires unionist generosity otherwise it is not worth the paper that it is written on.

    Secondly.

    “Why do we ordinary decent British people have to put up with the ravings of a distorted mindset like yours?
    Your memories are tainted by the foul breath of established prejudice.
    Its power has corrupted or subjugated your mind and others like yours.”

    That is blatant man playing and I refuse to rise to your crude bait.

  • Mister_Joe

    The Lodger,

    I think you are a relative newcomer to Slugger. If you had been around longer you would know that my only area of consistency has been the condemnation of all illegal violence, from all quarters.
    I don’t subscribe to UTV so I had no need of prompting.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    If that is the case then it is somewhat puzzling that you have concentrated the vast majority of your bile on the OO rather than the people who were rioting in Ardoyne.

    You didn’t need to subscribe to UTV to see the post and link which I made on the subject earlier this evening on this very thread.

  • Mister_Joe

    Would love you to point out my “bile”. I have nothing against the OO as a review of all of my posts will show. I simply do not believe that anyone should parade where they are not wanted especially where it is likely to result in public disorder.
    You are perilously close to man playing with that post.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    Don’t you worry about that. I can see what you are trying to achieve from a mile off.

    There is more chance of a nordie getting into the ROI olympic athletic team than there is of me man playing.

  • Mister_Joe

    And, such a review will find me condemning the rioting and rioters in Ardoyne.

  • The Lodger

    Mr Joe,

    Any review will find you lying about the OO and misrepresenting what I have posted.

  • andnowwhat

    Lodger

    Please name one single thing that unionism has freely given?

    NB. That means not at the requests of nationalists, the British government nor the American government. Something born and delivered from unionist’s minds

  • anne warren

    The GFA/BA is an international agreement between the UK and Irish states which entered into force on 2nd December 1999.

    Do you understand that sentence?

    If you do, why do you write
    ”First the GFA requires unionist generosity otherwise it is not worth the paper that it is written on”

    Do you understand the implications of threatening two sovereign states?

    “That is blatant man playing and I refuse to rise to your crude bait”
    No man-playing and no crude bait. My comment was an analysis of the content of your posts and of others like you and those who commend you.

  • carl marks

    Fergie Pie
    “Presumably you can provide photographic or video evidence of Billy Wright wearing an Orange Order sash on the day he was at Drumcree?

    Otherwise I’ll have to call you out as a liar”…
    You my call the lodger a liar as well, heres a quote from his post at
    24 July 2012 at 10:45 am

    “Therefore the argument by Sinners that it is acceptable to hate Orangemen because Billy Wright turned up one day wearing a collarrette is nonsensical”
    and again at
    24 July 2012 at 11:56 am

    “You refer to Billy Wright meeting with Harold Gracey as being a sustainable argument for your gatred of the OO..”

    So your denying it and he doesn’t see that OO leaders meeting with the boss of a very active sectarian murder gang known for being purely sectarian and entirely random in the nature of its targets during a period of high sectarian tension should annoy Catholics, wonderful

  • andnowwhat

    WOW!! The video I had saved on my Youtube account of Billy Wright meeting Willie Mc Crea has been deleted by Youtube. I wonder what that’s about?

  • andnowwhat

    Aha! Check at 9.24 of the video.
    Is Mc Crea speaking as a DUP man or an OO man in supporting the disgusting Billy Wright?

  • Alias

    “The GFA/BA is an international agreement between the UK and Irish states which entered into force on 2nd December 1999.” – anne warren

    You’re confused. The GFA is an all-party agreement between the political parties of Northern Ireland, with the Irish government and the political parties of the Irish state excluded from its negotiation.

    As The Lodger correctly pointed out (as as you wrongly contradicted him), that internal agreement would not have come into being if the unionists did not agree to its power-sharing provisions.

    “Do you understand that sentence?” – anne warren

    Do you understand the difference between a bilateral treaty and an internal all-party agreement? Obviously not. The British Irish Agreement is the former and the GFA is the latter.

    “Do you understand the implications of threatening two sovereign states?” – anne warren

    Unionists are not under any binding obligation to share power as a result of that agreement, as is fairly obvious from both the UUP and the DUP adding pre-conditions to the mix. It was only when the pre-conditions were met to the satisfaction of those unionist parties did power-sharing occur.

    They were perfectly entitled to do that, subject to no legal sanctions whatsoever.

  • Jack2

    Game set & match – andnowwhat.

  • Submariner

    FAO MR Joe ignore thr Lodgers posts he is a troll. He posts on a couple or other boards calling himself The Blair and Blairmayne. These other boards are not as strictly moderated as slugger and therfor he expresses what he really thinks of catholics/nationalists in the most graphic of terms shall we say.

  • carl marks

    The Lodger
    “I would suggest that the supposed outrage directed at the OO has absolutely nothing to do with ‘terrorist links’ and has everything to do with base sectarian hatred of Protestants. As I have stated here before the OO provides republicans with what they believe is an acceptable excuse for sectarianism.

    They purport not to hate Protestants, but show them one and they will provide you with an excuse for why they hate him in all but a very few circumstances.”
    Nice theory, ticks all the boxes, you have the good guys the OO ,States that Catholics who oppose parades are Anti prod.
    Let’s see where you can fit this into it.
    I Oppose parades which are contentous without the consent of local residents,
    I have been married to the most wonderful women for 26 years she has a quite a few siblings who excel in many fields, the ministry. Two (count them 2) paratroopers, An Artist, and a gifted Organist and singer dedicated to his Church, I assist G.B and B.B groups through their Duke of Ed scheme, I often attend social events at Presbyterian Churches, and my two Daughters describe themselves as Presbyfenians. Now tell me again that I hate protestants (no mother in law jokes please, loved the wee women) go on I dare you.

  • Mister_Joe

    Thanks, Submariner.

    I did know that, of course (the troll bit) but, sometimes I’m foolish enough to allow myself to get sucked in.
    I have to keep reminding myself not to try to teach a pig to sing because it’s a waste of time and annoys the pig.

  • anne warren

    Alias and the Lodger have overlooked one salient point:

    The GFA/BA is an international agreement between the UK and Irish states which entered into force on 2nd December 1999.

    The Agreement was made up of two inter-related documents, both signed in Belfast on 10 April 1998 : a multi-party agreement by most of Northern Ireland’s political parties, and an international agreement between the British and Irish governments.

    Belfast Agreement
    The Belfast Agreement or Good Friday Agreement was a major political development in the Northern Ireland peace process. The Agreement was made up of two inter-related documents: a multi-party agreement by most of Northern Ireland’s political parties, and an international agreement between the British and Irish governments

    BRITISH-IRISH AGREEMENT ACT, 1999
    AN ACT TO MAKE PROVISION IN RELATION TO THE NORTH/SOUTH MINISTERIAL COUNCIL, THE IMPLEMENTATION BODIES AND THE BRITISH-IRISH COUNCIL, ESTABLISHED UNDER AND IN FURTHERANCE OF THE AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE GOVERNMENT OF IRELAND AND THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND AND DONE AT BELFAST ON THE 10TH DAY OF APRIL, 1998, TO MAKE PROVISION FOR THE PURPOSES OF THE INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENT ESTABLISHING THE IMPLEMENTATION BODIES AND TO PROVIDE FOR RELATED MATTERS

    In 1998, the Good Friday Agreement was also lodged with the UN under Article 102 of the UN Charter.
    Thursday 24th September 2009, Dick Roche, TD., Minister for European Affairs

    CHAPTER XVI: MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS
    Article 102
    1. Every treaty and every international agreement entered into by any Member of the United Nations after the present Charter comes into force shall as soon as possible be registered with the Secretariat and published by it.
    2. No party to any such treaty or international agreement which has not been registered in accordance with the provisions of paragraph 1 of this Article may invoke that treaty or agreement before any organ of the United Nations.

    Links for each statement available. Not included to avoid posting problems

  • Fergie Pie

    andnowwhat (profile)
    24 July 2012 at 10:11 pm

    WOW!! The video I had saved on my Youtube account of Billy Wright meeting Willie Mc Crea has been deleted by Youtube. I wonder what that’s about?

    – – – – –

    Weren’t you on another forum calling on fellow Nationalists to report Loyalist videos on Youtube to get them deleted???

    Karma…

  • Alias

    “Weren’t you on another forum calling on fellow Nationalists to report Loyalist videos on Youtube to get them deleted???”

    Whoops…