Republicans thinking about being courageous in reconciliation (unionists say tell us when you’ve made your mind up)…

0 views

Some excitement over an article in An Phoblacht (you have to buy the print version to see the whole thing)…

“Reconciliation means being willing to have uncomfortable conversations,” the senior Sinn Féin figure warns, adding:
“A deep suspicion remains within unionist communities towards republicans due to the legacy of the armed struggle. Real hurt exists on all sides.”

Declan Kearney tells An Phoblacht readers:

“This is a time for republicans to free up our thinking, to carefully explore the potential for taking new and considered initiatives in the interests of reconciliation.”

It’s not getting much play from their partners in government, the DUP. Jeffrey Donaldson:

There is no doubt that creating a better society in Northern Ireland poses challenges to everyone and it requires brave leadership from those in positions of political responsibility. Whilst unionism has been willing to assist in moving Northern Ireland forward, and the First Minister has demonstrated that through practical action, republicans must offer more than a newspaper article where they are still mulling over the possibility.

Such internal republican discussions may well be best kept behind closed doors, but undoubtedly they should also include recognition that their constant demands for the truth from others will be the standards against which Sinn Fein themselves are judged.

It is a simple fact that you cannot apologise for something when you won’t admit you were even actually involved in.”

  • carl marks

    It is a simple fact that you cannot apologise for something when you won’t admit you were even actually involved in.”

    a wonderful quote from Jeffrey, just out of interest does anybody else think that,s one or two (at least) members of the D.U.P who might have a few things to get off their chest.
    could this be a kettle/pot black type of statement

  • ranger1640

    Heard the shinner Declan Kearney, on the Nolan show this morning, and boy did he love the sound of his own voice. More vacuous rhetoric from the shinners.

    As Carl Marks states above until the shinner leadership accept their part in the terror this is just meaningless rhetoric.

  • Chris Donnelly

    Sounds quite positive and indeed another example of republican willingness to avoid the prisoner’s dilemma which is clearly still preoccupying the minds of political unionism if Jeffrey’s remarks are anything to go by.

  • carl marks

    As Carl Marks states above until the shinner leadership accept their part in the terror this is just meaningless rhetoric.

    just when did i state this, i was talking about unionist polticians
    ranger try reading something before you quote it!

  • http://sluggerotoole.com Belfast Gonzo

    Having watched Donldson and Mitchel McLoughlin’s pathetic performance on Hearts & Minds, I would expect zero movement on this issue from either side.

  • Pete Baker

    “the senior Sinn Féin figure”, according to An Phoblacht.

    Alternatively, the little known placeman, and non-public representative whose previous public utterances elsewhere have shown no evidence of any freeing up of his thinking.

    Contrary to insinuations from other senior PSNI officers, Sinn Féin has no “psychological transition” to make. We have faced down attempts to intimidate DPP meetings; condemned apolitical, militarist violence against police officers; and, ensured the Assembly Justice Committee works. We will not be derailed by anyone. [added emphasis]

    All this coincides with a migration of former Northern Ireland Office figures into the new Department of Justice (DOJ). Defective prisons policy, the Police Ombudsman debacle, and long-standing efforts to hollow out Patten’s recommendations reflect a mindset synonymous with the old system.

    Of course, some of this was inevitable. Old reactionaries rarely go away. They regroup and retrench. That’s the reality of policing in post conflict Ireland.

    But the change agenda – in the context of the all-Ireland political institutions – is irreversible. The ‘dark side’ is not in control. MI5 will not succeed in remilitarizing the north. Change is in the ascendancy.

    Sinn Fein will resolutely drive, and defend the change agenda against all its opponents – not least those in the PSNI, or their retired colleagues, now in the Serious Organized Crime Agency (SOCA), intent on vindictively targeting republicans to massage bruised egos from a past conflict.

    This Serious Organised Crime Agency?

  • ranger1640

    Carl, did I take your comment out of context, oops. So just to clarify. You don’t agree with Unionists, you don’t want the shinner leadership to accept their part in republican terror!!! I stand corrected.

    I wonder now with all this shinner goodwill going about. Will they now remove their objections to the victims of the Kingsmills slaughter and remove their alleged objections to the Kingsmills families ‘Walk for Justice’.

    Show the alleged leadership you say you are giving. By parking your overt sensitivities to the Kingsmills families ‘Walk for Justice’?

  • Mark

    Donaldson’s reaction to Declan Kearney’s article shouldn’t surprise anyone . According to Jeffrey ” unionism has been willing to assist in moving Northern Ireland forward while republicans must offer more than a newspaper article where they are still mulling over the possibility ” . Is he for real ? This kind of response is antagonistic and sums up the thinking of unionists on this Island .

    He then has a personal dig at Gerry Adams . Do people really think that the Unionist community could handle what comes out in the wash during a truth / recon process .

  • carl marks

    ranger1640
    Ranger I do wish ALL parties to fess up for what they got up to.
    I make no claim to leadership.
    I have raised no objections to any march in relation to kingmill or any other atrocity.
    Care to tell me how you came to these conclusions about me, If its the old “ all fenians are provos” well thats just sad.
    Now tell me do you think ALL parties should come clean.

  • ranger1640

    Carl only the first part of the post was a direct retort to your post. The Kingsmill “march for truth” was not directed to you but to the broader readership.

    As for the “all parties to fess up” can you put some flesh on the bones of that statement???

  • ranger1640

    Like you Carl I too would like to see the answers to the questions you pose and many more, you know the ones, like quote “I was never in the IRA”! However they were involved in talks with the British government as far back as the early 70′s. Not having an axe to grind for the above mentioned, the dups, the uvf and the rest should fess up.

    How about the shinners start by taking the moral high ground, as they have with their statement above started this process. Its not unreasonable for them make the running, and start the process.

  • http://www.banuanlae.org/ Ulick

    @Baker
    “Alternatively, the little known placeman, and non-public representative whose previous public utterances elsewhere have shown no evidence of any freeing up of his thinking.”

    I know this is a pathetic attempt at a troll and I shouldn’t respond but Kearney is very well known and influential Irish republican. So much so that even you never miss an opportunity to blog about him:

    http://goo.gl/qADgG

    http://goo.gl/hhEva

    http://goo.gl/auJG0

    “the little known placeman”

    ‘Indeed’…

  • Mick Fealty

    Chris,

    Robert Axelrod notes of the Prisoners Dilemma that “words not backed by actions are meaningless”.

  • carl marks

    I really don’t care who starts but it is worth pointing out that while the shinners seem to have got to the point of admitting that they done wrong and about time,
    But unionism is still peddling the old line “it was themmuns” and as long as they keep up that fiction then we are going nowhere.

  • Mark

    Mick ,

    Would you agree that there are two sides to every story ? Yes …

    Would you agree that there are three sides to every story in the context of the troubles ?

    It wasn’t just the paramilitaries who left victims …

    Answer if you want Mick …

  • carl marks

    Would you agree that there are three sides to every story in the context of the troubles ?

    just three think your underestimating things there.
    My sadly departed dad used to say,
    “if you know whats happening in northern Ireland then you are misinformed”

  • Mark

    Yes Carl I was underestimating the number of sides to every story in the North …. however I was talking in terms of who was responsible for the deaths …..

    I’m a Dub carl and wouldn’t claim to understand most of what goes on where you are ..

  • Mark

    But i do genuinely care what happens in Northern Ireland and hope it all gets sorted out .

  • Mick Fealty

    Night lads…

  • Mark

    Night ..

  • Mick Fealty

    Carl, try to take more care in future? Really am going to bed now…

  • carl marks

    Mark
    That wasn’t a dig just a observation how mixed up this whole sad affair is.
    Mick
    Went to bed before your last comment,
    I am truly unaware of why I should be more careful. I have looked over my last posts and can see no reason for caution in them.
    Please point out were i either pushed the rules or broke them and i will try to avoid it in future. I really dislike being carded, anal i know but what can you do.
    will see you all later im off up a mountain, to nice a day for sluggering.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “A deep suspicion remains .. to the legacy of the armed struggle”

    Any such suspicion – a feeling or belief that someone is guilty of an illegal, dishonest, or unpleasant action – continues to be reinforced when PRM parapoliticians (and others) break the law and political policing provides immunity from prosecution or threats from the PRM ‘dark side’ inhibit members of the public from pressing charges. Suspicions don’t stop business being done or friendships being formed but they produce caution, stifle progress and inhibit trust.

  • tacapall

    It is hard to believe that a man is telling the truth when you know that you would lie if you were in his place. ~Henry Louis Mencken.

    When you make the laws, direct the police and control the courts and want your enemies to confess without immunity then don’t be surprised if no-one takes up your offer.

  • Framer

    No need for a blow-by-blow of how and why we killed this one or that one, just an acceptance that the 35-year campaign was objectively genocidal so far as Protestants were concerned and that Bernadette McAliskey was right when she described it for nationalists as ‘Armed Hibernianism’.

  • HeinzGuderian

    “Tell us when you’ve made your mind up.”

  • ranger1640

    Is this alleged sorry posturing by the shinners the start of the long march to the next RoI general election?

    Where they can beat their breasts and claim to be on a road to Damascus cathartic outreach program to Unionists. How sweet. Sorry for using mixed metaphors, but beware Greeks bearing gifts.

    As Brian Rowan reports,

    At Declan Kearney’s level of the republican leadership, there is really no such thing as a solo run.

    So we can therefore be confident that this article reflects wider thinking.

    For all of its detail, the focus will be on his use of that one word – “sorry”.

    Kearney is challenging republicans, and particularly IRA republicans.

    He is not in any way suggesting an apology for the IRA’s “armed struggle”, which he described as “last resort” and linked to political conditions which, he wrote, “no longer exist”.

    But what he is asking for is an acknowledgement of all the human suffering caused — to combatants and non-combatants, to those who wore uniforms and to those who did not. And he also wrote about the “real hurt” that exists on “all sides”.

    Reading between the lines, this is an article which says everyone was a victim.

    Kearney is thinking — and challenging others to do the same — about the next steps beyond ceasefire, the ending of the armed campaign and the political agreement. He wrote about republicans taking the lead “in helping to shape an authentic reconciliation process”.

    This is where the word sorry fits.

    And if at some stage it is used by the republican leadership in the way suggested by Kearney, then that would be another significant step.

    “The time has come to take each other seriously,” Harold Good told this newspaper.

    “To respond to clearly genuine ventures without assumption of ulterior motive or hidden agenda.

    “Talk, truth and trust — these are the three Ts that will release us from our tragic past and take us to a new place, whatever its shape or form,” he said.

    We wait now to see if there are other developments, what the Kearney article will lead to. And if at some point there is a statement from the republican leadership — one that uses the word “sorry” — then Harold Good is right.

    The challenge then to others will be to reciprocate.

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-chairman-ira-should-say-sorry-for-hurt-caused-16125881.html#ixzz1o351KMEC

    So they appear not to be sorry for the terror that was justified, just the actions, “acknowledgement of all the human suffering caused — to combatants and non-combatants”!

    And the likes of Sean Kelly, the Shankill bomber, who murdered 9 protestant shoppers, was a victim too. And there doesn’t seem to be any mention of the deniers to come and “fess up”!

    Strange type of sorry, but that’s republicans and the shinners for you! The shinners giveth and the shinners taketh away?

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    “A deep suspicion remains within unionist communities towards republicans due to the legacy of the armed struggle. Real hurt exists on all sides.”

    Now why would that be? Perhaps due to a prolonged, hate-filled and entirely unnecessary murder campaign directed primarily at the Unionist community? A campaign whose foremost protagonists are constantly feted as heroes by the Republican movement?

    Looks like an attempt at reconciliation while continuing to pretend that 1700+ murders were somehow justified.

  • http://garibaldy.wordpress.com Garibaldy

    I haven’t read the whole article, but in the bits quoted I don’t think there’s anything new at all. The line about there being hurt on all sides is very far from new, and discussion of reconciliation is hardly novel either.

  • tacapall

    Republicans are not the only ones in denial mode, Unionists refuse to accept their part in the past conflict they don’t hold the moral high ground when it comes to being honest. The DUP in particular being associated with Ulster Resistance, we all witnessed the scenes in the Ulster Hall of Paisley, Robinson etc threatening blood on the streets complete with red berets etc. The same terrorist army they formed went on to import along with the UDA, UVF hundreds of weapons into the country that were later used to murder innocent people. Jeffery Donaldson himself a member of the descredided sectarian UDR refuses to admit that the UDR was a training ground for loyalist terrorists and a supplier of loyalist weapons used to murder innocent victims. Unionists stick their heads in the ground when facts emerge linking RUC Special Brance to various murders including directing and paying those who carried out multiple murders.

    “It is a simple fact that you cannot apologise for something when you won’t admit you were even actually involved in.”

  • Chris Donnelly

    Tacapall
    Of course you’re spot on regarding politicsl unionism’s unparalleled capacity for self-denial in this regard.

    But that should not halt republicans in taking forward such an agenda quite simply because the knee-jerk public response of the loudest (political leaders & commentariat) are not always representative of the breadth and range of opinions within the community which has traditionally been hostile to republicanism.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    No-one is denying that there were two, indeed three protagonists in the recent conflict, but are you seriously describing Paisley’s air-headed Ulster Resistance as a ‘terrorist army’? And if so, how would you describe the provos?

    No side in the conflict emerges with any moral high ground or dignity (a word that can only be applied to the likes of Gordon Wilson and Colin Parry) but the difference is only Sinn Fein seeks to portray mass murder as somehow heroic and worthy of celebration.

    If SF are serious about reconciliation, they need to face the fact that their murder campaign was pointless, unjustified and counter-productive.

  • wild turkey

    Tapcall

    didn’t many on this site are familiar with Mencken… try this one on for size. sez it all ….

    The only way for a reporter to look at a politician is down.
    — H.L. Mencken

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “unparalleled capacity for self-denial” .. “knee-jerk public response”

    Chris, calm down dear; please pay attention to Declan’s call to free-up your thinking.

  • tacapall

    Chris I have no problem with hanging all the dirty linen out in public the problem lies with others and of course the chances of people going to jail for it.

    Gerry if a group of people threatened blood on the streets, carried out armed robberies along with other groups (UDA + UVF) for money to procure weapons along with other groups (UDA + UVF) that were then used to murder innocent people. Stole state secrets and attempted to exchange them for more weapons would you seriously expect me to label them anything other than what Unionists would label dissident republicans. Conspiracy to murder can carry the same sentence of life imprisonment as actually murdering someone. Importing hundreds of weapons into the country has no other purpose other than to be used to maim or murder.

    While we’re on the subject of pointless, unjustified and counter-productive actions Unionists would do well to remember it was loyalists who carried out the first murders and loyalists who murdered the first British soldier in the past conflict.

    “Sinn Fein seeks to portray mass murder as somehow heroic and worthy of celebration.”

    I really don’t know what you mean by the statement above Gerry perhaps you could give an example of where and when.

    Wild Turkey. Spot on.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    “Sinn Fein seeks to portray mass murder as somehow heroic and worthy of celebration.”

    Tacapall: ”I really don’t know what you mean by the statement above Gerry perhaps you could give an example of where and when.”

    Look no further than the SF giftshop on their site — tasteful IRA t-shirts, including one proclaiming; ‘IRA undefeated army’, recent calendars featuring armed and masked men, IRA ‘call the shots’ keyring, IRA ‘active service unit’ mug…do I need to go on?

    How about kids encouraged to pose with replica guns, masked men at hunger strike commemerations, SF leaders declaring how proud they are of the provos.

    For a group responsible for over 1700 entirely pointless murders, not to mention thousands of injuries, kidnapping, extortion, robbery, beatings and executions, that’s a pretty ringing endorsement.

    Paisley’s ‘third force’, ‘Ulster resistance’ nonsense fortunately came to nothing though I’ll concede that many of the weapons involved were used in sectarian murders by the equally useless though much more dangerous protestant paramilitaries. The early actions you mention and virtually all their subsequent actions were every bit as pointless, barabrous and hate-filled as those of the provos. The difference is SF attempt to justify and praise the actions of the provos while similar tributes to the UVF/UDA etc are conspicuously absent.

    If we’re going to have any kind of reconcilation, it’s both dishonest and pointless to pretend that the provos (who were effectively an organisation based on pre-planned murder) somehow had more moral high ground than the equally abhorent UDA.

  • tacapall

    Gerry no-one is pretending that Republicans hold the high moral ground they have carried out actions that are unjustifiable and were wrong, no-one need have been killed.

    “For a group responsible for over 1700 entirely pointless murders, not to mention thousands of injuries, kidnapping, extortion, robbery, beatings and executions, that’s a pretty ringing endorsement.”

    As evidence emerges everyday about the activities of RUC Special Branch and British Intelligence and their links to agent provocateurs within all Paramilitary organisations loyalist and republican, playing the numbers game and pointing in one direction could well come back to haunt Unionism. Knowing a murder or murders are about to take place and having the power to stop them but not doing so make those who refused to save those victims no different than those who pull the trigger or set the fuse.

    “Look no further than the SF giftshop on their site — tasteful IRA t-shirts, including one proclaiming; ‘IRA undefeated army’, recent calendars featuring armed and masked men, IRA ‘call the shots’ keyring, IRA ‘active service unit’ mug…do I need to go on?

    How about kids encouraged to pose with replica guns, masked men at hunger strike commemerations, SF leaders declaring how proud they are of the provos.”

    Is this any different than those homecoming parades for the RIR or British Army from their exploits in Iraq, Afghanistan etc not all of us are fooled by the “Bringing democracy to the people” line, these people are paid to murder for others to get rich on the spoils of conquest.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    ‘Knowing a murder or murders are about to take place and having the power to stop them but not doing so make those who refused to save those victims no different than those who pull the trigger or set the fuse.’

    Absolutely not. The person pulling the trigger or lighting the fuse is the one culpable, or perhaps you’re suggesting that the provos or the UVF weren’t actually responsible for murder on the occasions that someone else knew about it?
    Paramilitaries on both sides made concious and in most cases pre-mediated choices to murder others.
    The intelligence services were often placed in impossible positions, those positions largely dictated by the various murder gangs involved.

    Your argument is similar to the one often trotted out by the provos that civilians were caught in their bombs because the security services didn’t evacuate quickly enough. Somehow this was supposed to make the fact they manufactured and planted the bomb in a public place more acceptable. It didn’t and it still doesn’t.

    ‘playing the numbers game and pointing in one direction could well come back to haunt Unionism.’

    I’m not pointing in one direction. I offer no defence for the actions of loyalist paramilitaries any more than I would for PIRA. But SF, who seek high office, also seek to revise history and praise the actions of the provos.

    ”Is this any different than those homecoming parades for the RIR or British Army from their exploits in Iraq, Afghanistan etc not all of us are fooled by the “Bringing democracy to the people” line, these people are paid to murder for others to get rich on the spoils of conquest.”

    So you’re equating a war on the other side of the world with a group who murdered (sorry to bring up numbers again) over 1700 people (most of them fellow Irish citizens) and then apparently expect to be praised for it?

    Let’s remember that the main purpose of the PIRA was to plan and execute murder. They weren’t some heroic group engaged in street gun battles, they specialised in leaving bombs and running away or shooting people in bed or coming out of church. These weren’t defensive actions, they were barbaric, cowardly and twisted acts of hatred.

    SF apparently want reconciliation but also want to glorify their murder gang. You hit the nail on the head when you stated that ‘no-one need have been killed.’ I agree entirely but are SF big enough to admit it and stop pretending that what the provos did was anything other than wrong?

  • Comrade Stalin

    While it may sound like whataboutery I really don’t see how unionists are in a position to demand that others come clean about the blood on their hands when they singularly fail to come clean about skeletons in their own closet. In Jeffrey’s case, the matter of Kenny McClinton a few years ago springs to mind.

  • ranger1640

    I thought the statement form the shinner was about republicans, and for them to do as he puts it. “This is a time for republicans to free up our thinking, to carefully explore the potential for taking new and considered initiatives in the interests of reconciliation.”

    However all I see here from republicans is revisionism and more attempts to rewrite history and portray republicans as the only victims.

    I don’t see much republican free thinking on here, not that I’m surprised at that, just more of the old guard thinking. Man the barricades we have no freed up republican minds.

  • http://ardoynerepublican.blogspot.com/ ArdEoin Republican

    I don’t think Republicans should take lessons in ‘reconciliation’ from Declan Kearney, after all the Leadership of S/F he is part and parcel of cannot even admit the killings of Joe-Joe O’Connor, Paul Quinn nor Andrew McKearney….

    These three killings took place during their peaceful mode and were done to terrorise the communities in which they were killed…Maybe if Declan could have the PIRA Leadership admit and give reasons behind these killings, I and other Republicans would listen more to his words.

    Apart from the above, non-Republicans should understand that don’t know of any Republican Volunteer who ‘enjoyed’ or was ‘glad’ to take lives. Unfortunately, lives are lost in Wars and as a former IRA Political Prisoner, I have no problem giving apoligises to all those who suffered during the Conflict.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    ”Apart from the above, non-Republicans should understand that don’t know of any Republican Volunteer who ‘enjoyed’ or was ‘glad’ to take lives. Unfortunately, lives are lost in Wars…”

    Just a couple of points. Firstly, whatever you wish to call the period from 1969-1994 (The Troubles, The Armed Struggle, The Conflict etc), it most certainly wasn’t a war.

    Just to take one example, that of Loughgall, a heavily armed provo team were in the process of machine gunning and bombing a police station when they were wiped out by an SAS unit. The Republican movement, rather than accepting these deaths as casualties of war, screamed the place down about ‘shoot to kill’, something which they themselves were in the process of doing.

    In an actual war situation, both sides expect to take casualties. Apparently the provos didn’t think that was fair, ergo they weren’t fighting a war, rather some kind of utopian conflict where they were allowed to inflict maximum casualties but if they recieved any, they could claim human rights violations and embrace victimhood.

    Secondly, it’s fair to say that the overwhelming majority of PIRA attacks were pre-planned. How therefore can you describe atrocities such as La Mon (a hotel full of civilians), Bloody Friday (daytime Belfast streets full of shoppers and workers), Claudy (a vilage full of civilians), Warrington (a street of shoppers) etc etc as ‘lives lost in wars.’
    These events and many others were entirely avoidable, yet were obviously sanctioned in advance by the leadership, in the full knowledge that civilians would be the main casualties. What does it say about the mindset of the person or persons who ordered the above?

    I fully believe you that very few, if any, volunteers enjoyed killing and were largely acting under orders from a so-called army council. The decisions made by this council have proved to be entirely wrong in every aspect and were a betrayal of their communities, their volunteers and their country. By prolonging a pointless and barbaric murder campaign with no hope of achieving a UI, they could perhaps best be described as traitors to Ireland.

  • tacapall

    ‘Knowing a murder or murders are about to take place and having the power to stop them but not doing so make those who refused to save those victims no different than those who pull the trigger or set the fuse.’

    “Absolutely not. The person pulling the trigger or lighting the fuse is the one culpable, or perhaps you’re suggesting that the provos or the UVF weren’t actually responsible for murder on the occasions that someone else knew about it?
    Paramilitaries on both sides made concious and in most cases pre-mediated choices to murder others.”

    Gerry are you justifying the actions of British Intelligence and RUC Special Branch in allowing people to die for reasons like “Advantage ?”

    “Let’s remember that the main purpose of the PIRA was to plan and execute murder. They weren’t some heroic group engaged in street gun battles, they specialised in leaving bombs and running away or shooting people in bed or coming out of church. These weren’t defensive actions, they were barbaric, cowardly and twisted acts of hatred.”

    Just when do you believe it is justified to use tactics akin to what the Jews used in Palestine in the 40′s and what the French Resistance used during WW2.

  • Politico68

    I have been following this thread and I have to say it snaps me back to the days of ‘whataboutery’ that bogged down political movement for so long. If Republicans are looking to address the issue of reconciliation its to be welcomed. Donaldsons reply is the usual cynicism we should respect from him. Hopefully all parties to the conflict will come together and create a forum for reconciliation, cynical politicians (from whatever background) will never help the situation.

  • cynic2

    “Donaldsons reply is the usual cynicism we should respect from him. ”

    Dear Politico

    I am forced to note that your posts only appear infrequently when the dear Shinners are in the kaka yet again.

    Its over a year since Connolly House last dredged up this name to post a rebuttal so let me explain that Donaldsons’s cynicism is both justified and as nothing to one of the Connolly House Drones who posts a message so apparently full of import but devoid of backup as to only expose the lack of any delivery by SF.

    While the Dear Leader continues to deny his role, this all rings hollow.and is just another attempt to avoid responsibility for 2500 murders

  • BluesJazz

    “Just when do you believe it is justified to use tactics akin to what the Jews used in Palestine in the 40′s and what the French Resistance used during WW2.”

    Unsure of your point here Tacapall. Most PIRA victims were murdered because of their religion-Protestant- eg La Mon. How dare those evil prods declare themselves members of the ‘Irish’ collie club. They weren’t really Irish (unlike the collies, presumably) but Saxon opressors and thus got their just desserts.
    Maybe your getting mixed up with the French subjugation of the Hugenots? Which, no doubt you approved of.

  • BluesJazz

    *Huguenots*

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot

    Religion/Mythology has been the main source of murder for Centuries. And remains so. Scientific knowledge has only dislodged the foundations of superstition, the dodgy buildings remain, albeit declining fast.

  • Henry94

    Republicans shouldn’t say anything about the past in order to reach out to unionists. They should only say what they believe to be true. Because if you say something along the lines that the war strategy was a huge historical mistake then you can’t attach demands or expectations to it about how unionists should respond. They must be free to be as negative as they like and nobody has a right to be disappointed if they are.

    The basis of unionist politics is playing on the fears of their voters. Some of the fears may have had a basis in fact but it was still about playing on them. So political unionism will be negative about whatever republicans do and that’s just the way of the world.

    Nationalists need to look at the past for our own sakes. Where did armed struggle become an end in itself? How did ideology get in the way of objective thinking and what opportunities were missed

    Let’s not lose sight of the fact that the belief in a military solution was more than matched by the British side. Nor should those who died in the conflict on the republican side ever be relegated or side-lined even if the objective facts show that it was a war with no political point from a very early stage. That was certainly not the fault of the volunteers. It was a leadership failure. No pressure should be put on any member of the IRA to tell his or her story. But no barrier should be put in their way either and those who can should lead by example.

  • changeisneeded

    “A deep suspicion remains .. to the legacy of the armed struggle”

    Any such suspicion – a feeling or belief that someone is guilty of an illegal, dishonest, or unpleasant action – continues to be reinforced when PRM parapoliticians (and others) break the law and political policing provides immunity from prosecution or threats from the PRM ‘dark side’ inhibit members of the public from pressing charges. Suspicions don’t stop business being done or friendships being formed but they produce caution, stifle progress and inhibit trust

    Nevin , you make a good point if it wasnt clouded with unionist bias.

  • Turgon

    Gerry Lvs Castro is correct here. It is extremely difficult to accept that most / all the terrorists did not enjoy killing people. The comments of cheering and shouting when leaving murder scenes recounted by both terrorists who forsook their murdering and also the loved ones of the murdered tell a chillingly different story.

    The actions of many of the murdereers be they Jim Lynagh or Lenny Murphy speak very clearly of a sadistic enjoyment of murder for its own sake. The treatment of alledged informers by both sorts of terrorists again shows considerable evidence of enjoyment of inflicting pain both physical and psychological and then the enjoyment of killing people.

    Whatever ArdEoin Republican may want to pretent it is pretty clear that many of the terrorists enjoyed their murderous work and quite a number had antisocial personalities (what is often referred to as psychopaths).

  • ranger1640

    There seems to a lot of anti Unionist reaction from republican posters here on the shinners statement. However the shinner took note of justifiable Unionist suspicion. So what’s the beef, it the shinners have identified the “deep suspicions” it is then up to republicans, Sinn Fein and the IRA, to arrest those genuine Unionist suspicion. Over to you comrades.

    “The political reality is those actions cannot be undone, or disowned.” He acknowledged: “A deep suspicion remains within unionist communities towards republicans due to the legacy of the armed struggle.”

    Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/sinn-fein-chairman-ira-should-say-sorry-for-hurt-caused-16125881.html#ixzz1o8tOXPEc

  • Politico68

    Cynic2

    Again let me just say that I have been in Africa for almost a year. I had to google Connoly House to find out what u were talking about, (I live in Dublin, always have) and I have never been in it so i could’nt have been wheeled out of it. I am not a member of any political Party but I lean in favour of SF (although i did hand out flyers for them a few yrs ago) and other left of centre parties. So my comments are based on considered opinion and somewhat intellectual analysis, although beware of my spelling, it can be very offensive. Regards.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    changeisneeded, I was addressing/challenging a point made by a PRM parapolitician so the misdeeds of others aren’t really relevant. As you may know I collude with as well as challenge all sorts of folks, including PRM members.

  • http://igaeilge.wordpress.com Concubhar

    Reconciliation and Declan Kearney should not appear in the same sentence. It wasn’t so long ago that I was in a Raidió na Gaeltachta debate with Declan in which he castigated me for holding an opposing view to his own conception of Sinn Féin being the one true divinity and described me as ‘anti-republican’ and a long time enemy of his party. It would be amusing if it weren’t so serious, this tendency of SF to shoot the messenger and ignore the message. SF haven’t lived up to their lofty commitments on a United Ireland and have managed to show, through all Ireland vehicles (crocks) in which they particpate, the likes of Foras na Gaeilge, that a SF United Ireland is not the way forward but a throwback to stalinist times.
    Declan may talk all he likes in his ‘major articles’ in An Phoblacht – does that make every other article minor – but he doesn’t get it. It’s not unionists – with whom he’s sitting in government – that he needs to convince and win over but the public in the south. Inkgate showed Sinn Féin up to be less than the high moral alternative they proclaim themselves to be – next up is the salary issue. Who does a SF TD or Senator really serve, his party of the state from which he receives wages? Sinn Féin is all gong now – but as we’ve seen in the north, when it comes to being in government, it doesn’t do dinner.

  • Pro tanto quid

    Same old stories as always, nationalist, republican, unionist, loyalist. Can’t think any reading or indeed taking part in this debate will change their minds. The problem is that we all have agendas and bias, regardless of if you want to admit it or not.

    Why not just call all the various murderers and bombers who took part in the ‘War’ regardless of alignment, terrorists. You simply can’t do it can you. Catholics will insist that the protestants murder gangs were all secret police and army agents. Protestants will say the catholic murderers specialized in killing women and children. If you hold human life as something special it really doesn’t (or shouldn’t) matter what the killers beliefs or reasons are.

    It would be interesting to see peoples reactions when on hearing of a crime they waited to hear the religion of the victims or their persecutors before they could decide if they could (or should) condemn it.

  • latcheeco

    Sounds like the census results might be interesting. Was somebody given a heads up.

  • Gerry Lvs castro

    Tacapall: ”Gerry are you justifying the actions of British Intelligence and RUC Special Branch in allowing people to die for reasons like “Advantage ?”

    Who was pulling the triggers and priming the bombs? They were the ones doing the killings and the ones who’s actions require justification.

    ”Just when do you believe it is justified to use tactics akin to what the Jews used in Palestine in the 40′s and what the French Resistance used during WW2.”

    You’re seriously comparing the Nazi occupation of France to the situation at any time in Northern Ireland? You have quite the imagination.

    Sunningdale offered power sharing with indefinite partition in the mid 70s. Loyalism and Republicanism rejected this out of hand. In 1994 the provos and subsequently the loyalist terrorists stood down for basically the same deal and conditions that were on offer 20 years previously. That meant 20 years of murder with zero justification and zero result.

    I could spend hours listing atrocities and one-off murders by both Loyalist and Republican paramilitaries. The common link they share is their pointlessness and straightforward hatred.

  • Zig70

    If we allow victims to be used as a political football then we risk repeating the mistakes of the past. I’ve heard several interviews over the last few days relating to this article that have annoyed me. Victims are just another weapon in the cold war arsenal.
    The legal system deals with victims everyday, they are probably the best people to decide how best to deal with it (as long as it doesn’t involve giving them the chance to bill us for it). Maybe we should have a one-side rule in the assembly where the speaker gets penalized for talking about the past from only one perspective, would make for frantic googling to find the other sides view.

  • changeisneeded

    changeisneeded, I was addressing/challenging a point made by a PRM parapolitician so the misdeeds of others aren’t really relevant. As you may know I collude with as well as challenge all sorts of folks, including PRM members.

    I dunno Nevin, your blog and Ulster unionist coffee mornings say otherwise.
    Funny how R Swann is asking questions from your blog in Stormont!!!

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “Funny how R Swann is asking questions from your blog in Stormont!!!”

    changeisneeded, there was nothing to stop the other 5 MLAs and the MP for North Antrim asking questions about the ferry or other blogs. Cara McShane tried to get a meeting with Danny Kennedy but the Minister wasn’t available; she’d previously asked a development question for me about the wholly Unionist Causeway EA whilst the Unionists remained silent.

    There’s plenty of raw material on NALIL for any Slugger blogger to mine; Linda Stewart ran two important articles in the Belfast Telegraph recently based on this episode.

  • harpo

    “Sounds quite positive and indeed another example of republican willingness to avoid the prisoner’s dilemma”

    Chris:

    What dilemma?

    Republican prisoners may think that there’s some sort of a dilemma, but it isn’t a dilemma for unionists.

    This is just more hot air from a Provo.

  • harpo

    “I thought the statement form the shinner was about republicans, and for them to do as he puts it. “This is a time for republicans to free up our thinking, to carefully explore the potential for taking new and considered initiatives in the interests of reconciliation.”

    However all I see here from republicans is revisionism and more attempts to rewrite history and portray republicans as the only victims.”

    Ranger:

    Most of the republican posts on here have been nothing more than that and an endless list of whataboutery.

    Nobody is forcing any Provo to come clean on any issue, nor issue any statements about coming clean or anything else. This senior Provo has come out and said this stuff and no unionist made him do it.

    I’d have thought discussion should be about what he is proposing as opposed to a lot of ‘whatabout the unionists?’ claptrap.

    Like you I don’t see any sign of republican free thinking. They are still in whataboutery mode.