Football eligibility row illustrates unionism’s inability to respect ‘The Other’ tradition
One issue which illustrates perfectly the inability or unwillingness of unionist politicians to understand their Irish nationalist neighbours is that of the ongoing whingefest surrounding the ability of Irish citizens born in the Six Counties to represent the Republic of Ireland international soccer team.
Having stoked the flames of this fire for several years now, the DUP have decided that now is the time to call for inter-governmental talks between the British and Irish governments with the sole objective of denying northerners the right to represent the Republic of Ireland.
Why they expect governments to take time out from other pressing engagements to entertain such a notion is perplexing in its own right. But exactly why they’d expect their nationalist partners in the Executive- or indeed Irish government in Dublin- to engage in such talks is beyond comprehension.
Already Sinn Fein have replied in kind, calling for an all-Ireland team to replace the two international sides.
The latest bout of whining has been sparked by the on-field success of Derry-born James McClean, who is expected to be called into Giovanni Trapattoni’s squad on Friday and thereby make his first appearance in the Republic’s squad (the same individual has been the target of some fairly extreme politically motivated and personal abuse via his Twitter account in recent days from Northern Ireland ‘fans.’)
Having spent generations decrying the fact that nationalist Ireland refused to accept and respect their British identity, what is it that makes unionists so incapable of accepting and respecting the all-Ireland identity of their nationalist neighbours?
Anyone should be allowed to play for the country of their choice, that would be part of the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement. I also believe that if a person is developed into a soccer player in Northern Ireland and then they go to the Republic of Ireland there should be some form of compensation paid to Northern Ireland’s junior soccer training body and vice versa.
What the DUP seem to miss is that this isn’t unique to (pardon the turn of phrase) our wee country. It’s not just Northern Ireland where players have turned out for one country’s youth set up, only to opt for another country when they make the professional leap.
Arsenal’s Frimpong is a great example. Played for England during youth (close to home for training), then opted for Ghana when the time came.
Northern Ireland’s very own Lee Camp ‘defected’ from England to NI – and more the better we are for having him.
And just as a point of balance, the language and wording used by both ROI and NI fans on twitter regarding McClean’s personal nationality choice was equally disgusting.
This is just kids working the current system, but it’s a worldwide system – not something we can sort out in an afternoon at the conference suite in the Ramada…
While agreeing absolutely with everything said by Chris Donnelly, I dont think it is worth another thread. We have rehearsed this argument so often that I doubt a single person will be persuaded.
The one issue which I might disagree with is that Mr Donnelly suggests that it is unionists who are whinging……..and yes I do take his point about DUP calls for talks on the subject……but most unionists of my acquaintance seem perfectly at ease with it all. And even if they are not, theres precious little they can do about it.
But a Norn Iron team……..our wee country has suddenly become the touchstone of letsgetalongerism…….or rather faux lets getalongerism.
To elect to be Irish is somehow unacceptable but electing to be British is somehow “normal”.
Apart from the diluted nature of Stormont, Norn Iron only really exists in two areas……a football team and that 4 yearly Commonwealth thing.
We cant really count the Ulster rugby team as its nine county and not that some appear more at home in the Transvaal or the Scottish Borders or wherever.
The football team is therefore the last stand and the chipping away at it is obviously a good thing for nationalism.
None of us should have any problem what other people do.
Any word on Ruairidhi Donnelly?
An example of this is Colin Murray calling James McClean an Northen Irishman when James considers himself an Irishman.
As I understand it individuals are allowed (after the Good friday agreement) to choose how they regard themselves.
Colin Murray was I sugest being a little bit too smart for his own good and would be better to concentrate on being a good presenter.
Also worth noting that NI’s German born goalkeeper Maik Taylor did not even qualify for Northern Ireland via the grandparent rule, he qualified via his british passport. This off course was a loophole (now closed) that was open only to the four british associations.
I don’t recall anyone within the IFA protesting at this anomaly at the time. And let’s remember his new successor to the goalkeeping crown Lee Camp played at every youth level for England and only became eligible for Northern Ireland when FIFA relaxed the eligibility rules a few years back.
So let’s be honest, the IFA are well versed in using the current/past rules to their own advantage.
A comment I found on facebook earlier:
“playing for northern ireland as an Irish nationalist is a sure fire way to get yourself a bullet in the post”
True?
“A comment I found on facebook earlier:
“playing for northern ireland as an Irish nationalist is a sure fire way to get yourself a bullet in the post”
True?”
No, unless you ordered it from some sort of antique gun website.
Also, can I suggest Colin Murray’s comment were innocent?
The real issue which most Northern Ireland fans are annoyed with is that a nationalist NI player is happy to play for all Northern Ireland Under age teams right up to U-21 and even for the senior side in friendly games, only to turn turk at the last minute and head south, when all the time their precious shirt and space in development squads such as the milk cup NI team could have gone to a youngster who is desperate to play for Northern Ireland at all levels.
This is inequitable unjust and breeds tension.
Most Northern Ireland fans agree that if someone doesnt want to play for the country, then don’t.
Northern Ireland is virtually the only football association in the world whose all underage players can be selected by another association – unfair and unjust.
I suggest a compromise- underage NI players are eligible to go south up to age 18, but after that, if they play a competitive U21 game for Northern Ireland, then they are tied to Northern Ireland. This reduces abuse of the Northern Ireland football setup, and gives a fair chance to those underage players who want to play for Northern Ireland, to do so and to develop their career.
Not that the ROI association give a dam, though I note many opinions in the south would have sympathy with I say.
I think the vast majority of intelligent NI fans accept at this stage that these players are entitled to play for an Ireland 11 or the Ulster 11 and if they choose the Ireland 11 it should be respected. Nigel Dodds is always angry about something so it’s par for the course from him.
I’m sure there will be many disappointed Irish fans if Rory McIroy or Grame McDowell opt for GB over Ireland in the Olympics when the time comes but we’ll also have to respect their choice. Conflicting loyalties exist in the north of Ireland so you have to just accept these situations.
Why would Rory McIroy or Graeme McDowell be playing Olympic golf? Isn’t the Olympics and amateur tournament?
Apparently this young gentleman is not too keen on James Mc Clean and Duffy
https://twitter.com/?iid=am-74725293413287089614346767&nid=4+sender&uid=102418398&utm_content=profile#!/TruueBluue1905
Lovely
Galloglaigh,
For the games in Rio in 2016 they will be able to play.
@Red Lion
Would it be possible that some of my taxes make their way towards funding the IFA? If so I’d like to opine that I and probably half the population of the north have no problem with players training up here and then opting to play for Ireland.
RoC
Very good. Didn’t know that!
Ulick
Very good point!
Yep Ullick, it does come from our taxes.
Short_strand’s tweet to Nigel Dodds was a hoot
Ulick, a very small fraction of taxes paid in NI might make their way to the IFA (ditto GAA, rugby etc) but seeing that Westminster bankrolls this place, it really only is a tiny fraction. Out of the money raised in NI that goes to the IFA, the massive bulk of that comes from the fans in ticket sales, merchandise etc and some sponsors who have a vested interest in seeing Northern Ireland doing as well as possible. So Id say Northern Ireland fans(whether Catholic or Protestant or other) have fair claim to have a more significant voice.
Ulick (and others) – what do you think about my point in previous post about how a young NI player loses the chance to play for Northern Ireland development squads because a nationalist youngster is chosen ahead of him, only to go to the Republic of Ireland at the earliest (or latest )opportunity ?? Do you think this is fair or equitable??
“It’s absolutely none of his business. He should keep his nose out of it and concentrate on affairs within his own jurisdiction. And he should know better than to try and involve politics with sport.”
That was the position of the DUP and its then leader Iain Paisley in 2006 when then Irish Justice Minister Dermot Ahern got involved in the issue of players from Northern Ireland being forced by FIFA to carry British passports rather than being able to use Irish passports.
Why the change? Why is it now alright to involve politics with sport?
Red Lion,
Speaking for myself I dont care.
Its exactly the same situation in England. Players opt for Ireland after being selected for underage teams.
People make choices.
As I understand it there are twins in the Manchester United reserve team wh have opted for different countries.
There have been English born players who have opted for Ireland or indeed Norn Iron because they couldnt make the England team.
In a few years time there will be Norn Iron born player who wont be able to make the Ireland team and will happily settle for our wee country.
Problem solved.
Ian even.
If it was good enough for Martin O’Neill,I suggest it is good enough for anyone.
Is slugger merely a vehicle for SF press releases on this subject?
‘independent’ media.
FjH
Im not sure you have a good understanding of the eliginility ruling – it most certainly isnt the same situation in England, or virtually anywhere else in the world for that matter!
Some english u21 players may opt for another country due to the parents or grandparents rule (as in any country) – if they have a parent or g’parent born in that country then they can chose to play for the country of their parents or grandparents birth. There are also some other more nuanced residency/nationality rules. All these rules apply across the board to all countries – thats ok.
Where Northern Ireland is now at a disadvantage in world football to virtually every other country in the world is that everybody born in NI can now play for the ROI even if they dont have family ties to the ROI.
In effect, the ROI now have two u21 sides, 2 u-18 sides etc, their own ROI underages teams, and now the Northern Ireland underage teams as well, for they have the right now to select if they wish all NI underage players to play for them.(in reality means picking out which NI players are Catholic so rule has a sectarian slant to it). Virtually unique in world football. And incredibily disadvantageous to NI football, and in particular incredibly unjust to young NI footballers who want to play for Northern Ireland at all levels.
Not like England, or anywhere else at all
The endless moaning from nationalists illustrate nationalism’s inability to respect democratically agreed borders.
Pretending that any 26 county Irish Republic team is the Irish team is also delusion at its nuttiest. It will never represent all Irish people, no matter how much it tries to hijack terminology.
Co-incidentally, and tangentially I suppose, I saw the rewritten and resurrected Lloyd Webber /Ben Elton musical about “footballers and the troubles” musical in Lisburn tonight. It’s on until Saturday.
Quite simply the best piece of musical theatre I’ve seen in the last fifteen years in BTland. I saw it originally in London a long time ago and it was good, very good, but a little too simplistic. This time around, I’m a little wiser, and Lloyd Webber /Ben Elton appear to have have learned a wee bit too.
With respect Red Lion, its not about family ties to the Republic….its merely about being an Irish citizen. No more no less.
It cannot be my concern that Norn Iron is at a disadvantage (as you put it).
The fact that I have relatives in Antrim, Armagh and Tyrone makes me no less Irish because I dont have some in Galway.
Any northerner, nationalist or otherwise has the right to take every penny of funding he can get and walk away.
If Norn Iron is at a disadvantage……so be it. Norn Iron is about as much interest to me as Bulgaria or Equatorial Guinea.
Its about Rights.
What youre suggesting is a compromise of those Rights.
FIFA rules are clear (and Norn Iron blew it all by an ill judged legal case)
Irish citizenship is clear.
It is no concern of nationalists to make Norn Iron viable, in any area, including the football arena.
Any commitment to a homogenous Norn Iron undermines nationalism itself. Why on earth would nationalism make concessions to boost Norn Irons FIFA rankings?
If the DUP won this battle, denying Irish citizens their right to play for their country, what would be next? Should another law be enacted to prevent people born in the North having a right to an Irish passport?
Nationalists have to at least try and emphasize with those who feel British. We’d appreciate the favour being returned.
Sorry, it’s late – make that ‘empathize’ !
Is this a husband and wife thing, Diane Dodds also brought this up in the European Parliament a day or so ago, what is going on. Is this a private matter or a DUP party agenda. Has this not gone as far as it can go with those who decide these matters, has this not already been settled, are they going to directly appeal to God next, scrapping the bottom of the barrel for the never an inch brigade. The 26 counties is no different than up here, its a clique and if your not in the right circle you wont be noticed, for young nationalists from the north there’s no other way but play for NI first to get noticed by those that scout for the ROI team simple as that, and no matter what anyone says Windsor Park will never ever be a warm house for Nationalists.
Gallo,
Rafa Nadal was the last tennis mens singles gold medalist in it was once was amateur, but clearly no more.
St E,
I don’t mind bloggers taking a party line, so long as they do their own thinking. I’m more than satisfied Chris thinks for him self. Could always do with another unionist blogger or two.
Awww come on Mick. In blogging terms Chris’s article is like starting feeding time in the zoo
St Etienne and Cynic
The story was prompted by a DUP MP raising the matter in the first instance.
Furthermore, Slugger works much better if we stick to the topic of discussion- and, to his credit, Red Lion has shown that there is an argument which Northern Ireland fans can and will make in response to mine and others supportive of the rights of northerners to represent the Republic.
But I’d be more interested in hearing thoughts from unionist contributors to the site on how such a hostile attitude to one expression of the all-Ireland identity of their neighbours sits in a new era where we are supposed to be accepting and respecting each others’ identities.
‘The real issue which most Northern Ireland fans are annoyed with is that a nationalist NI player is happy to play for all Northern Ireland Under age teams right up to U-21 and even for the senior side in friendly games, only to turn turk at the last minute and head south, when all the time their precious shirt and space in development squads such as the milk cup NI team could have gone to a youngster who is desperate to play for Northern Ireland at all levels.’
Who was the NI goalkeeper who played for all NI under age teams right up to U-21, and who saw his chances of playing for the Senior squad evaporate when someone at the IFA realised lee Camp was eligible? I’ve yet to see any NI fan get upset over the plight of that ‘youngster’. Football’s a meritocracy – if you’re good enough you’ll play. If you want your association to run itself on the basis that it will only pick the ‘Rudys’ of the world, see where that gets you.
Surely these young men are making a footballing decision rather than a political one. If NI was the dominant footballing force you’d see players coming the other direction if they were eligible. It happens all over the world, surely the real question is, what is the point in international football?
Johnny boy you are probably right which makes it all the more odd that when the IFA were offered the ability to select players from all over Ireland they rejected it. 10 years from now Northern Ireland may be the better team, now Im not saying there will be guys from Dublin and Cork queing up to play for Northern Ireland but you might find players in England with grandparents from the Republic able to declare for Northern Ireland but the IFA rejected the idea and when Michael O’Neil talked about it again it all seemed a bit late
Colin Murray called James McClean a Northern Irish person simply on the basis of residency … he said nothing of his right to play for whoever he wants when eligible for said country.
Colin Murray refers to himself as Irishman all the time.
In some sense tolerance breeds tolerance here.
The likes of Martin O’Neill, Neill Lennon, Patrick McCourt, Neill McGinn and so many other Catholics and or Nationalists, have never really been criticised for their choice. I also believe if a member of the Irish nationalist community were to play for GAWA their wishes would be respected.
I think while many don’t like it, Irish nationalists can tolerate God Save the Queen in the same way atheist and anti-monarchists do, in the same way they do when Ireland or the Republic of Ireland play England. Sports professionals focused on their game may attach no meaning to songs and anthems.
I think many in the Irish Nationalist community have rightly or wrongly concerns about sectarianism, and the attacks on Neill Lennon may’ve put many off the idea of playing for the more local team or reinforced attitudes.
An another big factor is that Northern Ireland isn’t winning games to attract more players from all communities here. I agree that success on the pitch would make it more likely that Irish nationalists would play for GAWA than not. Aarron Hughes said as much.
I wonder what exactly the Tory party position is regarding the NI football team’s eligibility problems? It’s funny, he wants the British and Irish governments to meet to discuss this – can the NI government not meet with the Irish government or do you need your mammy to hold your hand? Pathetic.
Doddsy (and others) positions can be summarised thusly: international opinion thinks you’re wrong, half of NI’s population thinks you’re wrong, most of ROI’s population thinks your wrong, FIFA thinks you’re wrong and (most importantly) CAS thinks you’re wrong. So in essesnce you guys are right and the rest of the world is wrong. Or vice versa. Either way it’s a battle that’s already been won by the 32 county Irish teams and it’s fans, so keep it coming lads.
Republic of Connaught. Dodds seems to have no shame at all from his Radio Ulster rant yesterday He said it was an injustice that players were able to choose their sovereign identity and added that nobody should haver to just put up with an unjust situation indefinitely, which is rich indeed coming from a unionist in the statelet here.
Just an example for all posters, as a youth with distinct republican roots I was chosen to be a member of the N.I under 17 panel for the 2010/11 European Championship Qualifying campaign.. it was a great honour, and unsuprisingly my neighbours were fully supportive as they seen it as an opportunity for one of their own to make, possibly a better life for himself ! However, upon meeting up with the squad for a residential weekend, a member of the squad got a wallet stole containing over £50 and i was the one who was accused in the wrong by management as i was in the room next to him and i had my room searched as if i was being investigated by the PSNI uder warrant .. obviously, i defended myself to the hilt, but yet the blame was still placed on me. This greatly annoyed me and once, the wallet was found, in the shoe of the person that had originally lost it, not one person, neither management nor other player came once to apologise to me ! I believe, i was the one accused as i was Nationalist from a well known socially deprived area amongst a group of open Unionists, and this is in some way why i believe, it is not right for the likes of the DUP, TUV and other political parties to deny the right of Nationalist soccer players the right to choose who they wish to play for, be it ROI or anyother home nation, as still even in our “forward moving” times of “inclusion and intergretation,” human choice should be at the forefront of all, and James McCleans alongside Mark Wilson and Shane Duffy’s choice to play for the ROI, should not be criticised, because if current systems in place dont change, talented soccer players as a whole from a nationalist background will be lost forever..
Sinn Féin’s position as expressed by Pat Sheehan seems rather schizophrenic.
Players from Northern Ireland should have the “fundamental right” to choose which international side to play for, but they should have that right removed by the setting up of one all-Ireland team.
If there’s logic in that position, I’m struggling to see it.
Allow me to help Mike. They are two distinct situations. So if there are to be two associations all NI residents, British, Irish or both, should have the ability to select their association up until their first senior international.
However it would be preferable, instead of the situation described above, if there was to be one national side picking players from all over the island.
Now that the d.u.p have caught on that northern Irish players can play for who- ever they want to in Ireland, they want inter Goverment talks on the issue- in other words they think that the big brit goverment can or will sort this matter out- good thing that the Good Fiday Agreement is bigger than any goverment-
So, Neil, what SF seem to be saying is that nationalists ought to have the fundamental right (their words) to play for “Ireland” (“their country”). But ideally, in their view, unionists would not have the option of playing for Northern Ireland (“their country”), they’d have to play for Ireland.
Well, that’s not hypocritical at all, now, is it…
I thought the ROI plastic paddy picking era had died out with Jack Charlton…. obviously not
People from Northern Ireland are real Paddys turnpike. Some of them might not like that but just ask the English what they think!
michael-mcivor. At least now the DUP might stop claiming that the Good friday Agreementy is dead thanks to them killing it off in a Scottish golf course. But if they still insist it’s dead, maybe they should try telling the IFA that.
Mike,
So, Neil, what SF seem to be saying is that nationalists ought to have the fundamental right (their words) to play for “Ireland” (“their country”).
I have not seen, read or heard Pat Sheehan’s remarks. I would point out in your initial post you said Players from Northern Ireland should have the “fundamental right” to choose which international side to play for. Which is very much different to your second post which says that nationalists ought to be able to play for Ireland. The first appears to apply to ‘players’ while the second appears to apply to ‘nationalist players’.
Now option one sounds the more likely in which case he’s simply stating (what FIFA, CAS and the rest of the world sees as self-evident) that Northern Irish players, Nationalist, Unionist and other should be allowed to select which team represents them. Now that. to me, sounds like equality for all, the same rules applying to everyone is pretty much the definition thereof.
But ideally, in their view, unionists would not have the option of playing for Northern Ireland (“their country”), they’d have to play for Ireland.
Your letting paranoia take hold man. Ideally there would be one team. I assume Sheehan didn’t provide a detailed plan for sunsetting the NI or ROI team, and hence you really don’t know whether he’d prefer an NI based all Ireland team or a Dublin one, or anything else for that matter over and above having one association based on this island. You apparantly have leapt to the conclusion that one Ireland team means no IFA. I’m open to correction or did the MP for West Belfast (who, given his position, would surely favour an NI based all Ireland team) actually say any of that, or are you just filling in the blanks with the old Unionist fear?
Well, that’s not hypocritical at all, now, is it…
Correct. Allow me to again interpret the statement. I’d prefer an all Ireland team, but in the current situation it seems only fair that all players in NI have the same, equal right to define their Nationality (from the available options) and play for the country that represents them.
It’s an either or scenario. I may go to a restaurant or I may go home and cook a pizza I have in the freezer. If I go to the restaurant I should be allowed to choose what I want, but ideally I would go home and have the pizza because I haven’t got lots of money.
It’s a situation in which there are two scenarios. In scenario one I have a distinct set of options. In scenario two I have a different and distinct set of options. I express preference for scenario two. Simple.
Incidentally Mike if you can I’d love to know, you clearly don’t approve of the notion that NI Unionist player would be faced with two options: play for an all Ireland team or don’t play at all. So given that disapproval how do you feel about the idea that NI born nationalists should be faced with the same two decisions that you seem to be against should they be posed to a Unionist. This seems to be what most NI fans are arguing for, in spite of the various rulings.
NI Unionist player, play for all Ireland team or don’t play. That would be a bad thing.
NI Nationalist player, play for NI or don’t play at all. That would be the ideal solution.
Well, that’s not hypocritical at all, now, is it…
Quite.
Northern Irish folks can all themselves Rwandan for all I care….it doesn’t make them so
So after all the talk ,there is one defector in the RoI squad,
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16909171
and he probably won’t get a game.A lot of noses are getting removed to spite the nasty Protestants it would seem.
A lot of noses are getting removed to spite the nasty Protestants it would seem.
Quite right you are, as no Irishman makes any decision which hasn’t got the all important Ulster prod at it’s heart. Clearly all these players are going south for no other reason than to wind up the prods. Has nothing to do with allegiance, support, or heaven forbid, the various Loyalist trappings of the NI Linfield crowd, nope every decision we fenians make, we do so with you in mind.
I would suggest that McClean not making the squad for this game doesn’t necessarily read that his international career’s over, you never know the 32 county Irish team might play some other games. Ya know, after this one. James could get his callup yet. At least his Unionist-centric decision making process might not prevent him from playing internationally. Ya never know.