Trouble with the Troubles in the Irish Diaspora…
I was talking to a friend in Limerick, who’s particularly well networked (virtually and in real terms) with the Irish diaspora. One of the things he suggested is that that the troubles plays a much larger role, certainly within the Irish diaspora in the states than is often appreciated at home, to the point where there are some profound disconnects between the diaspora and the reality on the ground, ‘back home’.
As Richard McKibbin found recently, whilst those attitudes may be somewhat two dimensional, they are also as sincerely and felt as intuitively as though they were still ‘at home’. He recalls a recent incident in the US:
It was a wintery Chicago day last year when I was stuck in the “Windy City” for a few days on my way home from Texas due to snow on the runway at Heathrow Airport. On the day my rescheduled flight was going I went to an “L” station to get a train to the airport. Being the hopeless tourist that I was I was wearing a cowboy hat. All of a sudden an older man strikes up a conversation asking if I had been out West and I explained I was there to see my then fiancée (now wife) and my flights had been cancelled due to bad weather in London. I explained I was from Northern Ireland and he said “I’m Irish too.” “Really” I replied “What part?” I asked. “My parents are from Kilkenny but I have never been to Ireland” he said and then asked “do you say Derry or Londonderry” I dodged the question by explaining it depends who’s asking and whereabouts I am standing at the time, after which he said “I say Derry” and walked away.
I was shocked to be asked that question outside Northern Ireland frankly, but then I realised I had encountered a Plastic Paddy. Now don’t misunderstand me, not all Irish Americans are really that political when it comes to the Ireland question, but there are some who I refer to as “Plastic Paddys” are more ardent than most dissident republicans.
Yet it the post Troubles Northern Ireland religious affiliation is playing a less important role in how people vote. Yet poll after poll states that 25% of the Roman Catholic population support the union with the United Kingdom. Yet the majority of “Plastic Paddies” seem to believe that religious affiliation sets someone’s political views on Northern Ireland in stone.
The issue may seem trite, on transient. But for me it indicates a deeper problem. The Diaspora is a huge asset (as opposed to resource) to Ireland, north and south. But there is clearly a lot of yardage to be made up between the larger interests of the island now and where it might have been, say, ten or fifteen years ago.
Upping the quality of that engagement not least at a time when the globalisation process is shifting, albeit unsteadily, from the west to the east is critical. It’s not enough to blame Irish Americans for not taking the trouble to understand ‘us’ properly; rather we need to take more trouble to get to know them.
Topic: Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Global, Ireland, Northern Ireland
Brian
I’m afraid that you are mistaken. There are plenty of american irish who believe that they are as irish as people born on this island. I’ve met them and friends have met them. They get very annoyed when they are told that they are not actually irish.
Alan,
It’s my experience the Irish Americans are among the most patriotic Americans in that entire country. That they still cherish their Irish roots doesn’t detract from the fact they love America first and foremost.
Ted Kennedy often called himself an ‘Irishman’. He meant it in an American sense, to signify the ethnic group he came from in America. Same as Italian Americans who can’t speak a word of Italian or may have never been to Italy. They still cherish their Italian cultural roots.
There are of course many Americans among the 40 million who claim Irish links who are superficial. But there are also many who have been brought up in ‘Irish’ households in America who understand the culture. Those people don’t like being called Plastic Paddies.
Graham earlier asked if the plastic paddy tag was so offensive , what would be a more acceptable alternative ?
Nothing Graham … That would be an acceptable alternative . Why do we need the term . What’s the big deal ?? Some Americans like to play up on their ” Irishness ” for reasons that have already been given on this thread . If people are bent out of shape because of this , well that’s their problem .
BTW Son of Strongbow , Phil Lynott should be on Paddy’s list !
Imho plastic paddy is a fair description of someone who has never been to Ireland but says they are Irish; it wouldn’t be a fair description of someone who says they are Irish- American…simples.
The situation is as follows. Cassius Clay’s mother, Odessa Grady, could legitimately have claimed an Irish passport as she had a grandfather born in Ireland (Abe Grady of Ennis). Had she then moved to Ireland and given birth to her son there, he would have been Irish, but as she did not we must consider him as a Black American, and after his conversion to Islam and assumption of the name Muhammad Ali, I think we can call him a Black Muslim with American nationality, as that is probably what he would call himself. There has to be some sort of cut-off point, and as Muhammad Ali is only one eighth Irish and has never lived in this jurisdiction, he falls outside it, in his own opinion as well as that of Irish law. His own opinion in the matter can be divined by his statement “No intelligent black man or black woman in his or her right black mind wants white boys and white girls coming to their homes to marry their black sons and daughters.”
The Queen is one eighth Hungarian, but we would not call her Hungarian, and neither would she.
President Obama, as far as I know, has no plans to claim Irish nationality: his own term for himself was ‘mongrel’, so I can hardly imagine he would object to the word ‘hybrid’.
Phyl Lynott, though not born in Ireland, legally obtained Irish Nationality through his mother, and prolonged residence in Ireland after the age of 4.
My German-American friend suggested that I might be of Negro descent because of my tight curly hair, only slightly less so than Lynott’s, but I told him, I think correctly, that curly hair is unremarkable among the Irishry. I may though be 1/16th Romany gypsey: if I turned out to be have a small amount of African blood, it would be irrelevant as the majority is not. I think it has been established that all Europeans are at least 1% negro.
As for the Irish Americans, well yes they are Irish, within the context that they find themselves: moving to America allows the possibility of metamorphosis, but more often Irish people remain identifiably Irish, just as Ulster Scots still have a great deal of Scottish in them.
Nationalism is about accommodating all the nation, within reason, and Catholicism is by definition all-inclusive, but Ireland, for climatic reasons, is best suited for people with extremely pale skin and eyes.
Ulster Unionism is about drawing lines and excluding people in order to preserve power for the elect: an exercise in smoke and mirrors which turns the few into the many: Irish Americans, and any grouping which might upset the delicate balance, are not welcome. Unionist concern for the rights and feelings of any ethnic group apart from Ulster Unionists is generally the rankest hypocrisy.
Mark, the term exercised an eyebrow of my own and I merely sought to establish the cause of this burst of energy and avoid any recurrence.
I take no issue with what I perceive to be an increasing acceptance of freedom to choose one or multiple national indentities. It’s definitely not unique to Irish or Irish-Americans. I do, however, recognise that this acceptance could become stretched during politically sensitive discussion, particularly if the allegiance of natives is being called into question.
Another point I should have made if that if the person described in McKibbin’s original article had, as he stated, parents from Kilkenny, then obviously there is no objection to granting him an Irish Passport. It would be a breach of ECHR rules not to, as well as the UK Human Rights Act. We have a right to family life: you cannot breach that right by denying to the offspring residency which you extend to the parents.
So far from being any kind of Plasticisable Paddy, he had every right to move to Kilkenny, and indeed to Carrickfergus if he wished. McKibbin apparently believed that he had the right to marry a woman from Chicago and import her to Northern Ireland if he so desired, which presumably he did.
This reminds me of a famous case in Derry, back in the 60s or before, where a (Catholic) woman from Donegal applied for a job and was refused, because she was a ‘foreigner’: the post was later filled by another woman from Donegal, who was a Protestant. So effectively what is being preached by McKibbin is that Protestants can be imported into Northern Ireland, even if they have no birth connection with the area, whereas as Catholics may only leave.
I had to check the dates that it wasn’t Ist April when I read PaddyReilly’s classic:
Nationalism is about accommodating all the nation, within reason, and Catholicism is by definition all-inclusive, but Ireland, for climatic reasons, is best suited for people with extremely pale skin and eyes.
An interesting viewpoint that Nationalists can only be Catholic and white. Hardly inclusive!
As for the plastic paddy’s they are as common in England. Invariably second generation they spit venom at Martin McG who has of course sold out. They are appalled to meet anyone Irish who is not Catholic and act accordingly. The irony is they seem to scare Northern Catholic friends more than myself as the blatant bigotry seems from a bygone era. I suppose its always easy to have someone to blame for the problems in your life.
An interesting viewpoint that Nationalists can only be Catholic and white. Hardly inclusive!
An interesting example of adding together bits from 3 different statements to make a completely different one, rather like the chimera monkey who has been made in the USA with DNA from 6 different monkeys. I will repeat myself:-
1) Nationalism is about accommodating all the nation, within reason. Under this rule we incorporate into the Irish Nation Phyl Lynott and Tim Brannigan, because their mothers were Irish, and just about everyone born in Ireland (though, by mutual agreement, probably not John Churchill, born in the Viceregal Lodge and the younger brother of Winston Churchill) but, again by mutual agreement, exclude Muhammad Ali, boxer, because the connection is too remote. Anyone born in Ireland, Catholic, Protestant, or Jew, who makes a name for himself in literature or science or any other sphere of endeavour will probably end up on one of the Republic of Ireland’s stamps, though not so far Carson (probably by mutual agreement) or Chaim Herzog, (President of Israel born Cliftonpark Avenue Belfast) because he has his own country to celebrate him, with which he has chosen to be identified.
A counter-example to this was John F. Kennedy, whose picture adorned many an Irish house, and probably made the stamps as well. He had no grandparent born in Ireland, though all his great-grandparents were born there. But this never happened in my house. I myself admired George McGovern, who I should point out, was not actually a Catholic: I admired him for his left wing stance.
2) Catholicism is all-inclusive. Yes, Catholic means all-inclusive, and the Catholic Church does include more members of more different racial types than any other creed I can think of. As most Irish are Catholic this does mean they can marry non-Irish Catholics without experiencing the disapproval of family or Church. In my own family there are instances of intermarriage with German, Swiss, Italian and Spanish Nationals, all of which took place in Ireland.
3) Ireland best suited for people with extremely pale skin and eyes. Yes, it is an anthropological fact that the Irish have the lightest eyes (more blues and less browns) of any country in the world. The incidence of freckles, a condition which can cause fatal skin cancer among those who emigrate to Australia, is also extremely high. This is not my fault, if you have issues with it, take it up with God.
So it is not the case that an Irishman needs to be fully white but it is an observable fact that most of them are. When I get off the plane at Knock International, there is a guard who stares at all the arrivals: I sometimes wonder if he instructed to stop anyone not suffering from pernicious anemia. Equally, when shown a photo of a Boko Haram volunteer, I do not immediately think, that man must have an Irish connection; or, I must sponsor this man for a job in Dublin.
Nor does an Irish Nationalist need to be Catholic: indeed, if I seriously thought I could convert any number of Ulster Protestants to that viewpoint, I would be out there knocking on doors. But a study of the Stormont electoral returns indicates that the number of nationalist MLAs returned corresponds almost exactly with the proportion of Catholics in the population, especially since Dr Deeney has left politics.
Nationalism is about accommodating all the nation
So long as they conform to nationalism’s ideology.
Nationalism and its companion xenophobia are the pits. The nation state is but a recent invention which is being quickly supplanted by the corporate state, perhaps a single entity of a few companies in a 100 years or less.
So long as they conform to nationalism’s ideology.
Not necessarily. The list is here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_on_stamps_of_Ireland
Plenty of people here did not conform to nationalism’s ideology. Wesley? George Fox? Stanford? But there is an absence of those who actively and notoriously opposed it. Equally, Sir Roger Casement is not often featured on the stamps of the United Kingdom.
“I’m afraid that you are mistaken. There are plenty of american irish who believe that they are as irish as people born on this island. I’ve met them and friends have met them. They get very annoyed when they are told that they are not actually irish.”
I lived in the Washington DC area for the last 10 years and have met a lot of Irish Americans, some 2nd generation and others far more distantly connected to their homeland. I can’t recall meeting anyone who believe they are as Irish as someone born and still living in Ireland.
However, that doesn’t mean they don’t feel Irish in some small way. Getting ‘annoyed’ when you tell them they aren’t Irish does not mean they think they are Irish as someone living in Tipperary, Ballymahon, etc.
I imagine there are many who consider themselves as Irish as the inhabitants of Finchley.
Can they make Welsh cakes?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/8998895/US-election-2012-Ann-Romneys-Welsh-connection.html
What annoys me most about Americans is their enduring belief, with regard to us, that having seen one, they have seen the whole. A lady in San Francisco seemed quite put out when I asked for coffee, because she said I was ‘British’, and should drink tea. I have been wondering ever since how I should have replied.
But here we have the exact reverse. There are a vast number of Irishmen and Irish communities in America, with a vast variety in their preservation of Irish ways. Some are as Irish as if they were in Ireland, some have quite lost touch and changed into something else. Some have been absorbed into a general sludge of Americanness, some haven’t. Anyone who makes money from selling books/CDs or lectures is aware of this. McKibbin’s ideology requires that these people absent themselves for ever: mine doesn’t.
Joe Canuck seems to think he is qualified to speak on Irish affairs, even though he is resident, long term, in Canada. Of course if you were brought up in a place, you never forget it, you wake up every morning thinking you are still at home.
The cock crew out that morning, he crew both loud and shrill
As I woke in Californ-I-A, many miles from Spancil Hill.
There were plenty of German settlements across Europe who had been there for centuries. At the end of the 2nd World War many of them were kicked out, and had to ‘return’ to Germany. So they were German in the long run. In Nova Scotia there are people who have preserved the Scottish Gaelic tongue in ordinary use, and in Scotland there are those who have abandoned it.
Brian
“I live in America now, and have experienced some of this, especially if they bother to ask whether I used to live in Northern Ireland or ‘regular Ireland’ (I heard that one time, that made me laugh!). ”
I heard the exact same phrase from a US immigration officer as I showed my British passport, and my wife showed her Irish one. “So you’re from Northern Ireland, and she’s from regular Ireland?”
Paddy
“This reminds me of a famous case in Derry, back in the 60s or before, where a (Catholic) woman from Donegal applied for a job and was refused, because she was a ‘foreigner’: the post was later filled by another woman from Donegal, who was a Protestant. So effectively what is being preached by McKibbin is that Protestants can be imported into Northern Ireland, even if they have no birth connection with the area, whereas as Catholics may only leave.”
Your obvious dislike for unionists seems to have facilitated this illogical jump in your reasoning. It doesn’t make any sense whatsoever to a rational person.
McKibbin sits in O’Hare Airport waiting for his American fiancée, whom he subsequently marries. He meets the son of Irish people from Kilkenny and takes offence when the man claims to be Irish. He quotes the results of opinion polls which he thinks show an apparent enthusiasm for the Union among the Catholic population of Northern Ireland: this is hardly relevant to the question in hand, which is whether the city is called Derry or Londonderry. From this I conclude that McKibbin is one of those people whose happiness depends on Fermanagh being in Ulster, but Donegal not, on the emigration of Irish Nationalists and the immigration of British Protestants.
But it strikes me that I might be wrong. Perhaps McKibbin is an Alliance voter who doesn’t like posers, and his fiancée an Irish-American of Catholic religion. So I had to look further in his blog for his views. Here they are:-
But tonight we look forward with hope. Hope for the future we look forward with excitement of what 2012 will bring. The Olympic games in London, the Diamond Jubilee of Her Majesty the Queen and the centenary of the signing of the Ulster Covenant.
Paddy Reilly
“There is a glaring illogicality in this article, in that it scorns the right of Irish-American ‘Plastic Paddies’ to call themselves Irish, plenty of whom were born in Ireland, while insisting on the right of immigrants from up to 400 years ago to call themselves British. I would suggest that it is the ‘Diaspora British’ who are out of touch with reality”
This is wilful ignorance of a quite astounding kind. Surely you must be aware that Northern Irish unionists’ claim to Britishness is little to do with a 400 years ago migration, and a hell of a lot to with the fact that they live in the United Kingdom and hold British nationality.
The nationality attached to the entire territory of the United Kingdom (and the Crown Dependences, and the British Overseas Territories for that matter) is British. Oh, and if that’s not enough for you, Northern Ireland is part of the British Islands – all of which shares the same British citizenship rights.