Unionists highlight Troubles border murders
The Belfast Telegraph is reporting that at the meeting of government ministers from Northern Ireland and the RoI in Armagh, Arlene Kelly and Danny Kennedy presented Enda Kenny with details of more than 150 republican murders in border areas during the Troubles. They have called on the RoI government to apologise for the fact that the IRA killers were able to escape across the border following these murders.
Mrs. Kelly said:
…that they should remind the Irish Government of today that we certainly feel that the Irish government of the ’70s and indeed of the late ’60s, could have done a lot more to stop the campaign of genocide that was happening in Fermanagh, Tyrone, South Armagh and indeed Londonderry as well.
DUP leader Peter Robinson was also at the Armagh meeting. Asked if Mr Kenny had gone too far in pledging to lobby for the Finucane family, Mr Robinson said he accepted the Finucanes and many other families had suffered the loss of a loved one.
He added:
There is a feeling that there is some hierarchy of victims. So while of course people will have every sympathy for Mrs Finucane, I extend my sympathy also to all of those thousands of people who have lost loved ones, who never had an inquiry, who never had anyone going to Europe or going to America to raise their case, and they are just as important for me.
DUP junior minister Jonathan Bell was more forthright in his comments on the DUP website. After saying that Edna Kenny had clearly every right to support the Finucane family (Kenny has pledged to lobby internationally on behalf of the Finucane family over the enquiry into Pat Finucane’s death). Mr. Bell noted:
Mr Kenny should also recognise that his own government is not in a position to lecture the people of the United Kingdom on how to deal with the past. In the early days of the Troubles, the Republic of Ireland became a safe haven for republican terrorists. Indeed, extradition proved impossible on numerous occasions. Despite this, only one public enquiry has ever been set up by the Republic of Ireland into the past. Most notably, only a few months ago Mr. Kenny’s government moved to curtail the length of that enquiry.
With such a chequered past, the Republic of Ireland should be more careful when making wide-ranging comments about the past. It bodes ill for any representative of the Irish Republic to lecture the United Kingdom government on it’s obligations in examining past events.
Topic: Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Northern Ireland
Decimus
In August 1969, a loyalist mob invaded a Catholic area of Belfast. Seven people were killed, and approximately three thousand people lost their homes (Darby, J., 1997, p.p. 33). This type of intimidation happened on a weekly basis. Susan McKay is a journalist and Protestant from Derry. In her publication Northern Protestants An Unsettled People (McKay, S., 2000), she describes how Ian Young’s motor parts business had been bombed. Young is cited in McKay’s book as saying “Don’t forget there was a movement of Catholics from the Waterside to the estates on the cityside as well” (McKay, S., 2000, p.p. 342). Mr Young claims the shift was a natural move.
Susan McKay also includes the story of Ivan Cooper, a Protestant who went from unionist activist to civil rights campaigner. He lived in Killaloo not far from the city. Because of his links to the civil rights movement, Cooper was viewed with suspicion within some of the unionist community. In 1968 his mother’s Post Office was boycotted by the Protestant community. Cooper is cited in Susan McKay’s book describing how his home was petrol bombed, and that forced his family to move to Derry city centre (McKay, S., 2000, p.p. 314). Ivan Cooper and Ian Young give an account that describes a parallel narrative of the accounts given in Jonathan Burgess’ The Exodus, but which highlight a bigger picture; these events replicated themselves all across Northern Ireland.
galloglaigh,
So the fact that the exodus of Protestants from the cityside of Londonderry happened to coincide exactly with a sustained PIRA bombing and murder campaign in same, was simply a coincidence? Better houses just happened to pop up at the time and the Prods pulled out.
The mental gymnastics which republicans are capable of performing in order to wish away actions which they can’t excuse* are often Montypythonesque.
*Blatant sectarianism is especially something that they are utterly terrified of being accused of, as they believe that evil is reserved for the Prods.
galloglaigh,
So the catholic population on the Waterside was reduced by how many?
Decimus
Where’s your evidence?
Susan McKay paints a different story. Catholics were also intimidated from the Waterside at the same time.
Evidence old boy, evidence!
galloglaigh,
The evidence is that the population of the Cityside is over 99% Catholic whilst the population of the Waterside is almost evenly split. Prior to the PIRA murder and bombing campaign there were 18,000 Protestants living in the Cityside. Those people were forced out and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever, despite McKay’s desperate scrambling about for it, of any similar movement of Catholics from the waterside.
Let me shed some light on the 18000 lie. The Protestant population in the Waterside grew by 2487 people from ’71-81. That’s according to the census.
The Catholic population of the Waterside decreased by 1778 people in the same period.
On the Cityside in the same period, according to the census, the Protestant population grew by 591. So is the census wrong?
1971 1981
Total Roman Catholics 40188 37855
Total Protestants 15907 12125 10924
Total Presbyterian 8134 5828
Total Church of Ireland 6800 5705
Total Methodists 973 592
Total “other”&”not stated” 9119 13492
Total population 65214 63472
WATERSIDE (1): TOTAL POPULATION BY RELIGION
1971 1981
Total Roman Catholic 7708 5930
Total Protestant 7849 9244
Total Presbyterian 4167 4434
Total Church of Ireland 3063 4305
Total Methodist 619 505
Total Other, none & not stated 2709 3854
Total other 976 826
Total not stated 1733 3028
On the Cityside in the same period, according to the census, the Protestant population grew by 591.
galloglaigh,
Far be it from me to question your mathematics skills, or indeed your sanity, but I suggest that you have got that very wrong indeed.
Decimus
You’re quite right. I did make a mistake. The figure of 591 is the Protestant increase for the whole city from ’71-’81. But the figures don’t add up to 18000 either. In the period ’71-’81, the Protestant population (or the non-Catholic population to be more precise) of the Cityside decreased by 12,471. According to the survey 250 of those moved because of religious or political issues. That’s 2%.
Now… Where did you get the figure of 18,000. It would be nice of you to provide evidence once in a while. Otherwise we should all treat your posts as Orange Chronicle propaganda!
galloglaigh,
I got the figure from the Irish News article which I linked above, but if there were only 12,471 put out sure that’s okay then.
Decimus
Let me just summarise this.
You claim that 18,000 Protestants moved from the Cityside to the Waterside. The census informs us that the figure was 2487. In the same period, the Catholic population of the Waterside decreased by 1778. So it’s about a ratio of 3:2 either way. Where did you get your figures for the increase of the Protestant population in the Waterside?
Your claim of 18,000 does not fit what the census says. The Protestant population in the Cityside decreased by 12,471. That falls way short of 18,000. So again, where did you get your figures?
12,471 put out
The University of Ulster put that figure at 250 (approx). The rest moved for better social housing and not because they were ‘put out’. If you want to provide evidence to say they were ‘put out’ feel free. But as of now, my provision of evidence, outweighs your no show of evidence.
Greenflag
“but then they were always ever reacting or responding to events which originated outside their jurisdiction”
There you go again. Many attacks were launched from Ireland into the UK. You just seem in denial
You claim that 18,000 Protestants moved from the Cityside to the Waterside.
galloglaigh,
I claimed no such thing. Is this incompetence on your part, or are you deliberately trying to muddy the waters?
The University of Ulster put that figure at 250 (approx). The rest moved for better social housing and not because they were ‘put out’. If you want to provide evidence to say they were ‘put out’ feel free. But as of now, my provision of evidence, outweighs your no show of evidence.
galloglaigh,
How many of the 12,471 were interviewed by the University of Ulster?
Hi there this is reality -Additional statistics
Additional estimated statistics on the conflict.[131]
Incident No.
Injury 47,541
Shooting 36,923
Armed robbery 22,539
People charged with paramilitary offences 19,605
Bombing and attempted bombing 16,209
Arson 2,225[citation needed]
[edit]
Responsibility
Between 1969 and 2001, 3,526 people were killed as a result of the Troubles.[125]
Approximately 60% of the dead were killed by republicans, 30% by loyalists and 10% by British security forces.
Responsibility for killing[126]
Responsible party No.
Republican paramilitary groups 2057
Loyalist paramilitary groups 1019
British security forces 363
Persons unknown 82
Irish security forces 5
Total 3526 We must get justice prosecutions and true peace for all the families who suffer in silence. This is a civil right matter for families and communities lock up the sociopaths who say one thing and do another.
Decimus
You claimed that “In the border city of Londonderry the Protestant population was reduced from 18,000 to about 500″.
So, where did you get these figures?
I’ve re-looked at the census, and non-Catholic population of the Cityside, between 1971 (15672)and 1981 (12555), decreased by 3117. That is accurate and is from the census of both years. Some way off 18,000 I’ll tell you!
Have a look for yourself in Table 3.
galloglaigh,
I’ve already told you that I brought the figures from the Irish News article which I linked above. Your figures appear to change with every post. Has the Protestant population of the Cityside increased by 591 or decreased by 12,471? Why do you stop at 1981 btw? Did anything significant happen that year which might have increased the intimidation?
I’ve re-looked at the census, and non-Catholic population (which are not all Protestant) of the Cityside, between 1971 (15672) and 1981 (12555), decreased by 3117. That is accurate and is from the census of both years. Some way off 18,000 I’ll tell you!
I stopped at 1981 because that is the period that people like Gregory Campbell claim the Exodus happened.
Have a look for yourself in Table 3.
Even at that, from ’81-’91 the Protestant population of the Cityside decreased by 7700. Add that to the 3117 and that’s 10871. Again, way off your 18,000.
P.S. It would appear that Seamus McKinney didn’t do his homework on his figures.
Its amazing on this thread. All these winging prods appear to have murdered themselves and intimidated themselves out their own homes as part of a vile conspiracy to discredit Republicans
After all, you cant be a True Republican(TM) and a racist, sectarian killer, can you
Cynic
The intimidation was pervasive on both sides. Someone pointed out earlier, you and others fail to provide evidence. Why’s that?
J.R. i thought you where a Armagh man, why did you pick Fermanagh. do south armagh for me. a simple prods killed by Irish nats v caths killed by loyalists, dont hide behind the security forces crap, and i wont say that loyalists where only killing ira/s.f. supporters (people who supported the killing of loyalists). i wont hold my breath awaiting an honest reply, Goodnight.
Lámhdearg,
I am actually a Down man living in South Armagh
But do it yourself you lazy shite, I did South Armagh nearly a year ago and no-one reacted because it turned out the PIRA murdered protestant Civilins (non UDA, RUC) and Catholics civilians (non IRA/INLA informers/members) in almost equil numbers here, check My history. Anyway, what is the point, you have made up your mind.
Incidently I did fermanagh because of the way the CAIN website database works. It is Easy to do a whole county but to traul through the data and seperate South Armagh from Portadown, Lurgan etc takes ages.
Sadly I find myself in what seems a minority here.
I will not do the sectarian headcount thing because NONE of them should have been killed. I dont care if they were Protestant or Catholic, Irish, English, Muslim or Jewish and the Irish state had a positive obligation to stop its territory being used as a base from which to murder citizens next door. It failed in that obligation.
Indeed, at times the position taken by the state, including but not limited to the arming of the IRA at the start of the campaign, is powerful evidence of State Collusion on the Corry definition
galloglaigh,
I’m not going to labour the point with you, but I ask you to consiuder a few things. If thousands of nationalists had left the homes in which their families had lived for several generations, in a majority loyalist area, whilst loyalist violence was raging around them. If those nationalists were being gunned down as they walked out of church on a Sunday morning with their children, or their businesses were being bombed “as if from the air”. If their homes were being attacked, cars hijacked and burned, children beaten up because of their easily identifiable school uniforms etc, etc etc.
Would you be casually stating that they left that area because there were better houses available elsewhere? I somehow doubt it, but perhaps you would like to have a think about that.
Decimus
In August 1969, a loyalist mob invaded a Catholic area of Belfast. Seven people were killed, and approximately three thousand people lost their homes (Darby, J., 1997, p.p. 33). This type of intimidation happened on a weekly basis. But of course they don’t matter to you as they are not Protestant. These things happened in both communities. And I still standby the survey until you prove otherwise. Something you fail to do on a regular basis. Are you the editor of the Orange Chronicle?
galloglaigh
Resorting to personal abuse again?
‘Ethnic cleansing’ was experienced as a reality by
the vast majority of the people interviewed, who
lived close to the Border, and who recounted that
individuals were strategically ‘picked off’ and many families left the land/area for good
http://ireland.anglican.org/archive/hardgospel/cmsfiles/files/clogher_border_protestants_report.pdf
BTB,
So if the majority majority of respondents in a catholic survey say they experienced British oppression and persecution does that automatically make it so?
BTB
No harm sir, but the Anglican Church in Ireland is no reputable organisation to be referencing. Their connections to the Orange Order, and their history over the last couple of hundred years, gives them a reputation of anti-Catholic, and anti-Irish. Please post something which can be trusted. Something from an academic source perhaps. Not the religious wing of the Orange Order.
Thanks!
Decimus
Like I said your posts can be copied, re-written, and posted to represent a Catholic or nationalist perspective. Let me explain this for you, and maybe this time you will catch on:
I ask you to consiuder a few things. Thousands of nationalists had to leave their homes, in which their families had lived for several generations, in majority nationalist areas, were loyalist violence was raging around them. Those nationalists were being gunned down as they walked out of church on a Sunday morning with their children, and their businesses were being bombed “as if from the air”. Their homes were being attacked, cars hijacked and burned, children beaten up because of their easily identifiable school uniforms etc, etc etc.
Would you be casually stating that they left that area because there were better houses available elsewhere? I somehow doubt it, but perhaps you would like to have a think about that?
You see, like I said before, it was pervasive within both communities. You seem only to be concerned with Protestants, and ignore the big elephant in the room.
You gave a bad example of Derry, and figures that were massively inflated. A quick look at the census records proves your figures as fallacious and can only be considered as propaganda. And I still standby the survey until you prove otherwise. Something you fail to do on a regular basis. Your posts are worthy of an editorial in the Orange Chronicle?
You should look at the bigger picture, instead of focusing small and one sided issues.
JR, i responded, and i respond in the same way again.
I am comparing, the numbers of people killed by the opposing sides, on the border, not people killed by pira, nor people killed in Lurgan or portadown, the issue is, did Irish nats target non irish nats in an attempt to drive them from there homes (along the border),this the the claim of “cleansing” being made, not that the non Irish nats suffered the fate of xyz, i have been honest in saying i believe the loyalists attempted to cleansed irish nats from some parts of belfast and antrim,
Cynic2
… the Irish state had a positive obligation to stop its territory being used as a base from which to murder citizens next door. It failed in that obligation
Can you give some evidence for these claims. Your posts are also worthy of an editorial in the Orange Chronicle.
… but not limited to the arming of the IRA at the start of the campaign
Again, if you get a chance, some reputable evidence wouldn’t go a miss to back up your propaganda.
Lámhdhearg,
You are comparing nothing. You have posted no-statistics, and no evidence. You are trotting out old rhetoric and orange hall myths to accuse me and my neighbors of ethnic cleansing and attempted genocide.
I have three Protestant farming neighbors. One with a young family, one who is elderly and has only daughters who never married and the third who is elderly and lives alone. I Get on extremely well with first one, know the other to say hello to and do not really know the third.
There is quite a high chance that over the next few years two of those three farms will be sold as their owners die off and those people can be added to your “ethnic cleansing” statistics in the hope of radicalizing a new generation.
I know that Protestants were killed for sectarian reasons. I know that certain evil nationalist individuals didn’t want a Protestant about the countryside and I know that the IRA attracted those individuals. But it was not the will or policy of 99% of border nationalists nor is there a shread of hard evidence that it was. Also there it did not happen on a large enough scale to be termed ethnic cleansing.
A loyalist leaving a pipe bomb on a catholic neighbour’s doorstep is intimidation but is not ethnic cleansing unless that loyalist has the support of a large section of his community. Even if the Catholic moves out as a result of the intimidation.
For that reason I do not think Ethnic cleansing occurred anywhere in Northern Ireland during the troubles.
“Your posts are also worthy of an editorial in the Orange Chronicle.”
I do wish you would stop this bigoted nonsense. The online equivalent of shouting people down and attacking their character because you disagree with their views simply will not work
And why such hysteria? I really suggest that you do calm down and look back at what you have been writing
Cynic2
… the Irish state had a positive obligation to stop its territory being used as a base from which to murder citizens next door. It failed in that obligation
Can you give some evidence for these claims?
… but not limited to the arming of the IRA at the start of the campaign
Again, if you get a chance, some reputable evidence wouldn’t go a miss to back up your propaganda.
JR, nope it dosen’t ‘automatically’ make it true but it would make it worth considering would it not? as for the cleansing comments i would agree with you that the majority of CNR along the border did not actively engage in this program, but it did happen and the fear of attack was such that after dark, no one would call to a prod border farm with out phoning ahead or else they would be met with a 12 bore etc…of course this campgain of intimidation wasn’t solely north of the border
Minority experience
Participants narrated stories of harassment dating back to 1922, a year which
witnessed displacement of Protestants to Northern Ireland and attacks on
Protestant property and individuals in the Border region. The population
declined. The hurt caused by decline and examples of intimidation was allowed
to “fester” and for some still does in the absence of closure.
As noted above decline both demographically, culturally and politically gradually
settled and the community learned “to hold its tongue” and not draw attention to
itself. This silence and relative tranquillity was disrupted by the emergence of the
conflict in the late 1960s. Unfolding events, it was argued by many participants,
led to a worsening situation and renewed disengagement for some.
Within the focus groups anecdotes concerning harassment of individuals at
school and work; of damage to farm buildings, church property, halls and sports
grounds were recounted. Stories of intimidation were also forthcoming e.g.
black flags hoisted in vicinity of Protestant farms and on Protestant buildings on
the occasions and anniversaries of hunger strikers’ deaths; wearing poppies only
inside the Church for fear of giving offence; family members who had found
employment in the British security forces were not able to come home for solemn
family occasions. Examples of discrimination in job opportunities in the public
sector and farming support industry were recounted but no complaints were
made in the expectation of nothing being done about it.
http://www.seupb.eu/Libraries/PEACE_Programme_Evaluations/cr_BordProtFinal2_190907.sflb.ashx
In August 1969, a loyalist mob invaded a Catholic area of Belfast. Seven people were killed, and approximately three thousand people lost their homes
gallogliagh,
Clearly you feel very deeply about that, but yet you quibble about how many thousands of Protestants were put out of the Cityside of Londonderry.
Since I have bizarrely been yellow carded despite the fact that you have been man playing and I have studiously avoided doing so, I shall leave you to your own certainties.
No harm sir, but the Anglican Church in Ireland is no reputable organisation to be referencing. Their connections to the Orange Order, and their history over the last couple of hundred years, gives them a reputation of anti-Catholic, and anti-Irish.
I think that says it all about that particular poster. Better to ignore I think.
I know that Protestants were killed for sectarian reasons. I know that certain evil nationalist individuals didn’t want a Protestant about the countryside and I know that the IRA attracted those individuals. But it was not the will or policy of 99% of border nationalists nor is there a shread of hard evidence that it was. Also there it did not happen on a large enough scale to be termed ethnic cleansing.
JR,
I don’t think that anyone was saying that it was the will or policy of border nationalists in particular, but rather a deliberate tactic employed by PIRA. You can certainly quibble about whether or not the term etnic cleansing is appropriate, but large numbers of people died and larger numbers of people were intimidated from their homes. The scale would have been much larger were it not for the presence of the British army, UDR and RUC.
Decimus,
You still havn’t answered the key question though, If it was a deliberate IRA tactic why were 99.9% of protestant civilians left untoched in an area where even the army wouldn’t patrol by road?
Decimus
The scale is much larger because of the presence of the British army, UDR and RUC. They facilitated the UVF and UDA, and allowed them to carry out attacks on both sides of the Border. That cannot be questioned, as the evidence is there.
The figures put forward for Derry are accurate, and dispel the myths put forward by yourself and others. The so-called ethnic cleansing happened on both sides, but some Sluggerites can only see the Protestant perspective. It would serve us all better, and all of the citizens in this state, to accept that fact and move on.
What I have done, is present facts. What you have done is present opinion. Opinions are backed up by facts my friend.
My post concerning the Anglican Church’s connection to the Orange Order are nothing new. Let’s be honest here, and let’s not try and paint the Orange church, as lilly white. It won’t wash (pardon the pun)!
Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye
JR where do you get your 99.9% from? did the murder victims not have families and friends and nieghbours? did/do attacks on OO halls/church halls/schools leave people untouched? did the ”area where even the army wouldn’t patrol by road” effect no-one? your comment is akin to saying the troubles left 99.9% of everyone untouched…
You still havn’t answered the key question though, If it was a deliberate IRA tactic why were 99.9% of protestant civilians left untoched in an area where even the army wouldn’t patrol by road?
JR,
Because PIRA liked to pretend that it was waging a non sectarian murder campaign.
Decimus
Because PIRA liked to pretend that it was waging a non sectarian murder campaign
As did the British army and their government. It’s funny that people only see one side of the coin that was ‘The Troubles’.
Do any of the stats buffs out there have figures for how many OO members who were not in the British armed forces or members of loyalist paramilitaies were killed by the IRA ?
BTB,
Point taken, I will rephrase to “un ethnically clensed” then.
Decimus,
So are you sayin the IRA had an ethnic clensing policy but didn’t carry it out because it would make them look bad?
So are you sayin the IRA had an ethnic clensing policy but didn’t carry it out because it would make them look bad?
JR,
No I’m saying that their ethnic cleansing policy did not require them to murder every Protestant in sight. Cleansing areas of Protestants could be achieved by a combination of murder, intimidation, bombings, attacks on property, vehicles etc. Basically regular folks do not need the hassle and will move out rather than take it. That is exactly what happened in Londonderry and in various areas of the border.
In my own home town the last Protestant family was driven out of one particular street when they started to find that human shit was being pushed through their letter box. Now that may not count as ‘ethnic cleansing’ in your mind but they were cleansed out of that street none the less.
JR, i did not/do not claim 99% of border nats where involved in the “cleansing”,and i am unaware of the understanding, that it requires a certain % of the locals to join in the act,for it to be ethnic cleansing.
“The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”
“[E]thnic cleansing [...] defies easy definition. At one end it is virtually indistinguishable from forced emigration and population exchange while at the other it merges with deportation and genocide. At the most general level, however, ethnic cleansing can be understood as the expulsion of a population from a given territory.”
Remembering i have only claimed i believe that pira engaged in and attempted to “cleanse the border”
“I know that Protestants were killed for sectarian reasons. I know that certain evil nationalist individuals didn’t want a Protestant about the countryside and I know that the IRA attracted those individuals.”
So you believe that the ira killed protestants, because they where protestants, and because they did not want protestants about the place (the border? Ulster?),ie they wanted the protestants of the area gone.
Please see above definition, that is ethnic cleansing.
Several posters have tried to show that to have a balanced view of what happened in NI we have to bear in mind both (or more) versions of the wrongs that were done.
Lamh dearg provided the UN definition of ethnic cleansing “rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group.”
By it very nature this definition cannot be applied unilaterally.
For a reciprocal insight into each mentality have a look at this BBC film with modern and old footage of the burning of Bombay Street
http://vimeo.com/18704183
“Unionists highlight Troubles BORDER murders”.