Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?

Thu 10 November 2011, 11:20am

A friend pointed out to me in Belfast yesterday that whilst Sinn Fein has its outreach project to the south to keep it’s support engaged and happy, Unionism seems to be making very little contribution to the devolution max versus independence debate in Scotland, and more recently, London.

The Scots themselves have been out looking at other pre-existing relationships that Scotland might take up, albeit short of full independence (which is increasingly popular), in order to hammer down realistic options. The excellent Caledonian Mercury (See here for the provenance of the title)

…senior SNP strategists are delighted that someone has at last come up with a formula for “devo max” which is cogent, coherent, workable and virtually autonomous.

Ever since Alex Salmond said he wanted the option of “independence lite” or “devo max” put on the ballot paper as an alternative to independence, there has been confusion as to what this might mean.

The Isle of Man may well provide that answer. The island, as is also the case with Jersey and Guernsey, is virtually autonomous, controlling all fiscal levers including tax rates and only relying on the UK for immigration rules and defence.

Jersey and the Isle of Man have control over customs and excise, postal services, telecommunications and social security, yet remain self-governing dependencies of the British Crown.

Firming up a radical solution within the union, is a canny move. No doubt the SNP will push for full independence, but because they are close to the only party energetically framing the terms of both sides of the equation, even a loss could be seen as a gain.

One has to ask, where are the Unionists? There is some evidence that Unionism in London are showing signs of awakening to the implications of the constitutional question.

But little sign that those with the most front line experience are showing more than a detached engagement with an issue that could see Northern Ireland even further out on edge than before.

Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Delicious Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Digg Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Facebook Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Google+ Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on LinkedIn Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Pinterest Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on reddit Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on StumbleUpon Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Twitter Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Add to Bookmarks Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Email Share 'Unionism silent on Scotland and the ‘Devo Max’ question?' on Print Friendly

Comments (38)

  1. Manfarang (profile) says:

    It is Orkney and Shetland that should seek a status similar to the Isle of Man. After all it is Shetland’s oil.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  2. oneill (profile) says:

    Where are the NI Unionists?

    *Defending* our wee province’s position within a Union that is in so much more danger from Salmond than it ever was at any point during the IRA’s terror campaign against our nation and people.

    They (the NI Unionist establishment) are either blithely unaware of what’s happening in the rest of the UK or they are arrogant enough to believe that the UK can’t be dismantled without their say so.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  3. FuturePhysicist (profile) says:

    Some unionists would be happy if Scotland and Ireland formed their own union.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  4. JH (profile) says:

    It’s astonishing really. One of the people I work with almost every day comes from a staunch Orange Order background in Scotland and yet is a committed supporter of full independence.

    His attitude reminds me of my own a few years ago. But whereas here republicans have learned to batten down the hatches and be patient there seems to be a feeling urgency in Scotland now.

    And why not? The independence movement might not have this momentum again for generations. Salmond has managed to galvanise several traditions in Scotland by giving pride to the people and not many can achieve that.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  5. lemonheadIII (profile) says:

    There’s an article on the Scottish blog, Bella Caladonia, on this very subject, that I put up last week. If this subject interests you take a look, http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2011/11/03/the-irish-dimension/#entry

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  6. AGlassOfHine (profile) black spot says:

    66% of the Scotish Electorate do not favour leaving The Union.

    I’m sorry,but I can’t put it much clearer than that !

    As for the shinner ‘outreach project’ in Southern Ireland well,it seems their reach wasn’t as long as they thought.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  7. JR (profile) says:

    Just so long as they don’t do what happened here. Partition Scotland.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  8. Neil (profile) says:

    66% of the Scotish Electorate do not favour leaving The Union.

    I’m sorry,but I can’t put it much clearer than that !

    http://fullfact.org/blog/Scotland_independence_referendum_SNP_Alex_Salmond_Michael_Moore-3103

    You can put it as clear as you want fella, doesn’t mean you’re not telling lies:

    Conversely, a yes/no poll conducted by TNS in September 2011 which surveyed Scottish adults on how they would vote in an immediate referendum on Scottish independence found that 39 per cent supported independence, 38 per cent opposed it, while 23 per cent remained undecided.

    Have you seen a more recent poll in the past month, or are you just engaged in that good old Unionist wishful thinking of the type we get in NILT every year?

    As for the shinner ‘outreach project’ in Southern Ireland well,it seems their reach wasn’t as long as they thought.

    It’s a long game. As long as my party of choice continue to increase their vote share in every election they participate in I’ll be happy enough, which is what they have done.

    Of course a presidential election has little bearing on the results of a general election, and as a stand alone result for SF’s first attempt 13.7% fpv is pretty good.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  9. Obelisk (profile) says:

    It seems clear to me that the current relationship between Scotland and England is no longer sustainable in it’s current form. Salmond has played every one of his cards right in this debate and has reached that point where it seems there is nothing bar a major self inflicted scandal that can derail his momentum. You hear noises in the media that the London based parties are thinking about holding their own referendum in Scotland to scupper Salmond’s gradualist plans but it’s obvious such a move would simply be used by the Nationalist Leader to argue that the English are trying to thwart the will of the Scottish people.

    The end result probably isn’t in doubt either, Independence now or Independence later. If they opt for Devo-Max then Scotland will be hanging on by a thread, a thread the SNP will vigorously attack until they are able to sever it.
    If they get independence, all well good, mission accomplished.

    Lemonhead’s link to Bella Caledonia isn’t perfect. I disagree with his analysis of Ulster Unionist identity which again falls into the easy trap of painting your opposition in simplistic, negative terms. But the rest of his analysis fairly cogent, especially as Unionists here tend to have deeper connections with Scotland than with England.
    If Salmond succeeds in smashing Britain, those connections will STILL be deeper with Edinburgh and with London.

    The North’s position within the Union will never be so tenuous or exposed as to when Scotland achieves it’s independence. But the Unionist people must NOT be forced against their will, or by the connivance of politicians, into a situation they are not willing to go into. A United Ireland born of such a Union would be a terrible thing and it must not come to pass in such a way. I believe Scottish Independence will cause the bonds of Union between the North and England to become brittle, dead things, that will fall away with time, but such a process if it starts to happen must not be forced on anyone.

    Instead, if need be, the Republic of Ireland and any independant Kingdom of Scotland should come together to co-operate in the North, to re-assure both communities, and to ensure we can all weather any forthcoming constitutional storm.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  10. oneill (profile) says:

    66% of the Scotish Electorate do not favour leaving The Union.

    GOH,

    I (and I’m very much a Unionist of the UK variety) honestly wouldn’t stake the house on it.

    The Scottish pro-Union parties are presently in the kind of shambolic state which just makes Salmond’s job easier; he is softly provoking the latent English nationalism which has always existed within elements of the Conservative Party and most importantly of all (and this is where Irish nationalism falls down at Stromont) is proving that the SNP are actually capable of running the country in a competent and politically neutral fashion.

    Scotland goes and the Union (obviously) is finished- an amalgam of England, NI and Wales could hobble on but I would never consider that as the nation I was born in and owe my prime allegiance to.

    What is frustrating is the total incompetence of those Scottish pro-Union “forces” I mentioned- just as small example, there are three separate organisations (if you could call them that) to fight the separatists; they can’t even unite to save the Union.

    What is more frustrating is the way Unionism is pottering along here as if we are still firmly in the Good Ole Days, check out the DUP’s arrogant dismissal of English student grievances re the fee discrimination they and our other fellow Brits will face at NI Universities.

    Through my own blogging I have got to know several of the guys behind the “Campaign for an English parliament” and they honestly rub their hands with delight every time the likes of Ian P Jr plays the “Our Wee Province is alright, sod the Rest” card at Westminster.

    If they don’t suddenly give themselves a shake and come to a sudden realisation that the Union is a two-way contract, then the only place the Union flag will be flying will be on top of their own website.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  11. AGlassOfHine (profile) black spot says:

    If I’m wring,(and I very seldom am),why doesn’t Salmond call for the referendum now ?
    Salmond got the protest votes from Scottish Labour,the same way the shinners got the protest votes from FF.
    False dawns,which produce nothing more than hot air.

    As for this ‘shinners are in it for the long game’,that would explain their 30 year murder campaign,would it ?

    Sorry to be the bearer of good tidings,but this constantly grasping at straws,leaves you with nothing more than a handful of nothing.
    A bit like 86.3% of fpv going against you.

    http://fullfact.org/blog/Scotland_independence_referendum_SNP_Alex_Salmond_Michael_Moore-3103

    Mr Moore, in reference to a TNS opinion poll conducted by the show, said: “I think that very interesting poll shows us that the demand for independence is actually still at the kind of historical levels that it has been, at under a third, and indeed over the last month, declining.”

    However a comparison of YouGov surveys since 2008 does show a decrease in support for independence.

    According to a YouGov/Sun report published in May 2011, back in April 2008 around 34 per cent of Scots supported independence, with 51 per cent opposed and 15 per cent undecided.

    Almost a year later the same polling company found 33 per cent would vote yes for Scottish independence, 53 per cent would vote no, 4 per cent would not vote, and 10 per cent did not know.

    The 2011 report found support had declined further, with 29 per cent backing independence, 58 per cent opposed to it, and 13 per cent did not know.

    The results are not out yet for the same poll for this year if it is to be repeated. However, there was one published in August 2011 which was based on a yes/no question and found that of those certain to vote, 35 per cent wanted independence, 60 per cent did not and 5 per cent did not know.

    I asked above why Salmond didn’t go for the Referendum now………………..I guess he knows he has as much chance of winning,as Marty did a couple of weeks ago.

    Now,who was it that mentioned wishful thinking ? ;-)

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  12. lamhdearg (profile) says:

    independence for Scotland, thats their concern. will independence for Ulster follow.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  13. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    A glass,

    YOu are missing the critical point made in the article above. The SNP is setting the terms BOTH for leaving and staying.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  14. JoeBryce (profile) says:

    There simply is not going to be a United Kingdom of England Wales and Northern Ireland.

    There are opportunities opening up for a creative renegotiation of relationships across the islands.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  15. Dewi (profile) says:

    “Dominion Status” woild probably cover the type of Devo Max proposed. As Mick says it’s Alex whose framing the decision parameters. Funnily enough the Devo Max option raises for more constitutional issues than independence – indeed I doubt the right of the Scottish people to “decide” on that option – have to wait and see what Alan Trench says…

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  16. JR (profile) says:

    everyone here is keeping a sneaky eye on Scoltand one way or another. The implications for here are huge either way. Irish Nationalists could learn alot form their Scottish counterparts.

    With one visionary coherant, articulate and democratic political movement b’fhéidir go mbeidh ar lá linn freisin.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  17. AGlassOfHine (profile) black spot says:

    Mick,66% of the Scottish Electorate do not wish to leave The Union.
    It’s that simple.
    It’s akin to the unending Border Threads.(see above)
    Lots and lots of guff written about it.
    The bottom line is it ain’t gonna happen.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 1
  18. JR (profile) says:

    Does it not make a mockery of this site that people can continually break the rules and recieve red card after red card and simply alternate between a few id’s?

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  19. Mac (profile) says:

    “Does it not make a mockery of this site that people can continually break the rules and recieve red card after red card and simply alternate between a few id’s?”

    You can’t possibly be suggesting Hine is heinz can you?
    I know the bad spelling, cramped punctuation and catchprases are the same, but I haven’t seen Hine make any tasteless jokes about widows yet.
    Case unproven.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  20. DougtheDug (profile) says:

    Alex Salmond has never said that he wants the option of Devo-Max to go on the ballot paper but he has offered to put it on if the unionist parties can come up with a viable scheme which they all agree to.

    The fundamental issue with Devo-Max which not many commentators bring up is that it can only be defined and implemented by Westminster. It doesn’t matter how many real-world examples are brought to the attention of the unionist parties unless they agree that they want to go down that road then that option cannot go on the ballot paper.

    What the SNP are banking on is that Devo-Max will never be on the ballot paper because the Labour party, the Conservative party and the Lib-Dems will never come up with a solution which is both acceptable as an example of Devo-Max and also acceptable to all three unionist parties in Scotland. It has to be acceptable to all three because they are the ones who will be implementing Devo-Max in Westminster.

    If Devo-Max does not go on the ballot paper despite Salmond offering a space then it will be easy to point out to the Scottish electorate that independence is the only game in town as the unionists cannot come up with an alternative to the status quo.

    It’s also quite interesting to read the comments on here which indicate that, “Britishness”, is under threat if Scotland leaves the Union. If Scotland leaves why does that mean that the Northern Irish, Welsh or the English are any less British than they thought they were before? If people’s sense of national identity cannot survive the loss of part of their country then it’s very fragile identity based more on politics than a cohesive culture.

    The SNP’s viewpoint is that Britain is not a nation but a state held together by historical political treaty between Scotland and England and if the remainder of the UK falls apart after Scotland leaves then that viewpoint will be proved correct for the union of England, Northern Ireland and Wales as well.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  21. oneill (profile) says:

    DtD,

    It’s also quite interesting to read the comments on here which indicate that, “Britishness”, is under threat if Scotland leaves the Union

    As far as I can see, there are no comments on here to that effect. If Scotland goes it means the Union is finished in my opinion but that’s quite a different matter from saying my British identity would also be finished.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 1
  22. Hopping The Border (profile) says:

    independence for Scotland, thats their concern. will independence for Ulster follow

    Unlikely unless the three ulster counties outside Northern Ireland decide to join the other six within it!

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  23. DougtheDug (profile) says:

    Oneill:

    Obelisk said, “The North’s position within the Union will never be so tenuous or exposed as to when Scotland achieves it’s independence…I believe Scottish Independence will cause the bonds of Union between the North and England to become brittle, dead things, that will fall away with time…”

    and you said, “Scotland goes and the Union (obviously) is finished- an amalgam of England, NI and Wales could hobble on but I would never consider that as the nation I was born in and owe my prime allegiance to.

    Which is interesting because if you all felt truly British then there would be no problem with a part of Britain leaving the union as 92% of the population will still be in the Westminster governed part.

    If Scotland achieves independence why does that leave the remainder of the UK without your loyalty or make Northern Ireland’s position within the UK any different from it is today? The same people will be in Northern Ireland and it will still be run from Stormont and Westminster and the BBC and most of the current institutions of the British state such as the monarchy, the army, the civil service will suffer no noticeable change apart from their name. It’s Scotland that will see the big constitutional change.

    Both these statements imply a British identity in Northern Ireland which is vulnerable to any change in the makeup of the UK.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  24. IJP (profile) says:

    Mick

    Important point – SNP is setting the terms for continuing membership of the Union as well as terms for departure. What a joke Unionism is, allowing that to happen!

    oneill

    That’s where the SNP is even cleverer. Essentially, it is saying that the “British” identity continues with an independent Scotland the same way a “Scandinavian” identity continues with an independent Norway.

    Irish Nationalists miss a trick there, not least on days like tomorrow.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  25. oneill (profile) says:

    “Both these statements imply a British identity in Northern Ireland which is vulnerable to any change in the makeup of the UK.”

    DtD,

    I have a British identity (along with an Irish and European one); I was born with it and whatever happens politically or constitutionally, I’ll die with it intact.

    I am able to be feel a pride in being European without feeling much, if any, loyalty or allegiance to the structures of the EU.

    Similarly if Scotland leaves the UK, as I said I would regard the Union as finished and to all intents and purposes my nation dismantled.

    I have no idea until (or if it happens) how much political loyalty I would feel towards the successor state but my national identity- the mosaac of Britishness, Irishness and European would be intact.

    IJP

    There are many lessons they (Irish nationalists) could learn from Salmond, with the main one being in amodern democracy how more more successful civic nationalism is than its ethno-communal cousin at convincing the undecideds of the justice or logic of its cause.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  26. DougtheDug (profile) says:

    oneill:

    Similarly if Scotland leaves the UK, as I said I would regard the Union as finished and to all intents and purposes my nation dismantled.

    Which is odd as Northern Ireland would still be part of a state with 92% of the original population of the UK if Scotland leaves.

    It’s almost as if your base loyalty is to Scotland not to the bulk of the UK population.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  27. IJP (profile) says:

    oneill

    Indeed.

    It also follows that such a civic nationalism will run the country more effectively, because it has no “ethnic imperatives” to favour one part of the country/population over another regardless of evidence or reason.

    As you and others, this more effective governance, an inevitable consequence of being civic rather than ethnic, will in turn further convince undecideds of the merits of their cause.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  28. oneill (profile) says:

    DtD,

    It’s almost as if your base loyalty is to Scotland not to the bulk of the UK population.

    I have read enough of your comments elsewhere to suspect you are being deliberately obtuse here!

    Does my national identity depend on the political, legal and constitutional set-up of the nation where I am a citizen?

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  29. DougtheDug (profile) says:

    oneill:

    Does my national identity depend on the political, legal and constitutional set-up of the nation where I am a citizen?

    From your comments here it certainly appears to do so. If Shetland and Orkney left Scotland then they would take about 8% of the Scottish population with them but I’d still feel Scottish and regard the remainder of Scotland as a diminished Scotland but still Scotland.

    If Scotland leaves the UK taking about 8% of the population with it then as far as you’re concerned it’s game over for the UK and you are effectively a stateless person.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  30. Republic of Connaught (profile) says:

    Doug,

    The former UK will be a rump state without Ireland or Scotland. What’s left isn’t the United Kingdom, it’s merely greater England. Indeed the very use of a Union Jack flag would be discredited with Ireland and Scotland being independent.

    The Protestants of the north of Ireland historically regarded themselves as the Scots-Irish. So if neither Ireland or Scotland were part of the remaining rump state it would be logical lthat the “Scots-Irish” don’t belong in it.

    Forging new closer links between independent Ireland and independent Scotland would be their logical political path. But of course given the depth of perpetual sectarianism in the north of Ireland it won’t be
    that simple.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  31. oneill (profile) says:

    DtD

    You didn’t directly answer my question:

    Does my national identity depend on the political, legal and constitutional set-up of the nation where I am a citizen?

    I don’t think it does but what do you think?

    OK, let’s put it another way:

    “If Scotland left the United Kingdom then they would take about 8% of the British population with them but I’d still feel British and…” and nothing- I’d still feel British; my national identity is surely not dependent on the nation I happen to myself a citizen or resident of?

    I’ll put it even(!) another way- wasn’t it Wishart who said that a sense of Britishness in Scotland would survive the separation of the Scotland from the rest of the UK? If that’s the case in the part of the UK which has broken away, then why not in NI? Aren’t you in danger of falling into the old IRA trap of saying that the Britishness of a large part of NI’s population is a result of some kind of “post-colonist false consciousness”?

    If Scotland leaves the UK taking about 8% of the population with it then as far as you’re concerned it’s game over for the UK and you are effectively a stateless person.

    Game (obviously) over for the UK but I guess I’d be a citizen of whatever the successor state would be so not “stateless”. But most importantly I’d still have my British national identity- wouldn’t I?;)

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  32. DougtheDug (profile) says:

    oneill:

    Does my national identity depend on the political, legal and constitutional set-up of the nation where I am a citizen?

    No it doesn’t of course, but it depends what you mean by nation. As a Scot my identity is bound to the nation of Scotland but at this moment Scotland is subsumed into the state of the UK, a state to which I do not owe any allegiance.

    You said earlier, “Scotland goes and the Union (obviously) is finished- an amalgam of England, NI and Wales could hobble on but I would never consider that as the nation I was born in and owe my prime allegiance to.”, so my point is that despite the fact that you regard the UK as your nation the loss of 8% of its population changes your allegiance to the remainder.

    You would still have your personal British identity after Scottish independence but if it doesn’t have a subsequent strong link to the 92% of the current UK population which will be left in England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scottish independence then it is a very fragile thing.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  33. oneill (profile) says:

    You would still have your personal British identity after Scottish independence but if it doesn’t have a subsequent strong link to the 92% of the current UK population which will be left in England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scottish independence then it is a very fragile thing.

    I think you are confusing national identity with allegiance to the constitutional nation you happen to find yourself a citizen of or living in.

    Your Scottish identity hasn’t become suddenly a “fragile” thing simply because you are legally a citizen of the a nation that you feel no allegiance to.

    Scotland separating from the UK wouldn’t remove the political, cultural, social, economic etc etc role it has played in overall UK history nor in my own family’s history.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  34. Barnshee (profile) says:

    Cameron should call a referendum right across the UK

    Question Should Scotland have independence ?

    If the Scots vote yes then out they go- more important if the UK vote yes out they go

    Watch the shit run down the SNP legs

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  35. grandimarkey (profile) says:

    @Barnshee

    But if the vote was had in Scotland today the yes camp would lose, That’s why the SNP are waiting until the end of this term of office before holding it (which, in fairness, they’ve said all along).

    For Cameron to call a referendum would be for him to walk right into the SNPs hands. I can imagine now the cries of the Tories usurping Scottish law and government. It would be a terrible decision however considering how atrocious the Unionist side have been in this debate so far I wouldn’t be surprised if it happened.

    More importantly however, the SNP have 4 or so years to convince around 20% (and shrinking) of the electorate to vote Yes. For a party consisting of the most cunning and politically capable operators in the British isles today that is not an insurmountable task and indeed if anecdotal evidence is anything to go by (and I seldom think it is) then I am experiencing a definite shift in mood with people I speak to.

    A momentum is growing and more and more people are talking about independence and more importantly they are talking favorably about it. In fact when a work colleague said she was worried about breaking the Union because of “All the things we rely on England for” she was most vocally derided by the majority of the staff for talking down Scotland.

    I speak only as an honorary Scot (6 years of residence in the fantastic city of Glasgow) but if the Unionists want to stop independence happening then they must campaign positively about the Union and not about Scotland’s eventual failing without it.

    I however, if I still live here, will have a giant YES badge on my lapel and will be on Sauchiehall street campaigning for independence. Scotland would be a better country without the Union, London doesn’t give a tinker’s curse about this country and a growing number of people are beginning to see it…

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  36. Congal Claen (profile) says:

    Are the SNP unaware of what is happening in the EU? France/Germany are now running the show. The views of the smaller nations are for yesteryear. Lisbon2 won’t be happening again. They’ll be told what to do by their Euro masters. Just like the “independent” RoI.

    Will Scotland take on the debts of RBS and HBOS before leaving? Given to the UK by a Scottish PM and a Scottish chancellor.

    The biggest threat to the union is English independence. Who could blame them? Having to listen to the whingeing cousins whilst subsidising their existence.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  37. Obelisk (profile) says:

    ‘The biggest threat to the union is English independence. Who could blame them? Having to listen to the whingeing cousins whilst subsidising their existence.’

    Having both major components of the Union in a race to see who can declare independence first, now there’s a situation that brings a smile to my face.

    We are a few years out from a constitutional realignment of some sort and it’s going to be fascinating to watch it all play out, especially in regards to the consequences locally of whatever happens in Scotland.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0
  38. Congal Claen (profile) says:

    Hi Obelisk,

    You may not smile that long. A “free” England will be Tory. It’ll be business friendly with genuinely world class universities and a critical mass of population that matters. None of the former cousins will be able to compete. Plus, they’ll have to deal with a rump of reluctant citizens.

    What do you think?
    (Log in or register to judge or mark as offensive)
    Commend 0

Leave a Reply

You must be logged in to post a comment.

Copyright © 2003 - 2014 Slugger O'Toole Ltd. All rights reserved.
Powered by WordPress; produced by Puffbox.
178 queries. 1.097 seconds.