Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

Sinn Fein release Martin McGuinness bank statement

Wed 5 October 2011, 11:47am

The BBC are reporting that Sinn Fein have released a bank statement purporting to be Martin McGuinness’s. The statement over 6 months details his receipt from Sinn Fein of £1515 in May which rose in June to £1569 and then in August to £1605. It also details assorted withdrawals made by Mr. McGuiness: he mainly seems to shop at ASDA but has also been to TK Maxx, B&Q and Tescos. It is of course unclear how many accounts Mr. McGuinness has or indeed if he is in receipt of any other monies.

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Comments (114)

  1. Neil (profile) says:

    It is of course unclear how many accounts Mr. McGuinness has or indeed if he is in receipt of any other monies.

    Of course you have no proof that he does but hey, throw some mud it might stick wha? Unfortunately though probably not, the vast majority of people wouldn’t be that bitter that they can’t accept what’s in front of their own eyes, well, apart from some Unionist types that is, natch.

    As for ‘other monies’ I assume you mean from SF? You are suggesting that SF and Martin are lying about this without a shred of evidence to back you up, and that just makes it all the funnier. Of course if you’re referring to other monies earned by McG from non-SF work then I suggest that’s no-one’s business.

    Out of curiousity where does bitter Jim get his money, how much does he make and what does he spend it on? Just curious as there’s no proof he doesn’t get looooaaaaads and spend it on all sorts of nefarious activities. No suggestion that he is but hey, just thought I’d join you in your mud slinging exercise.

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  2. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    This feels just a little bit intrusive going through someone’s domestic affairs, but the obvious questions it raises is: is this really everything Martin?

    No direct debits (electric, telephone, rates). No cash withdrawals. No petrol bills, nothing in fact that suggests Martin’s contributing to the household at all, other than the occasional shopping bill.

    I would not expect to see everything but there is not even any evidence of the money for utilities passing through this one and into another understandably private household account.

    It does confirm one thing though. Apparently Martin is not being paid by the state to be Deputy First Minister, he’s being paid by the party. Which kind of conflicts with Senator Cullinane’s assertion that his investment in the local party infrastructure is being paid by his money.

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  3. Neil (profile) says:

    This feels just a little bit intrusive going through someone’s domestic affairs, but the obvious questions it raises is: is this really everything Martin?

    Hold the phone Mick your moving goalposts here. He’s entitled to earn income from other sources and hold other accounts (not saying he does btw). The argument is about is income, not his expenditure – he gets paid an industrial wage from SF. That was what concerned you yesterday. Now he’s provided what was asked for you move on to another attack position. Tragic and funny.

    No direct debits (electric, telephone, rates). No cash withdrawals. No petrol bills, nothing in fact that suggests Martin’s contributing to the household at all, other than the occasional shopping bill.

    I pay none of those bills myself using a DD, I also, like Martin have a credit card which fortunately Virgin accept. You will also note that there are cash withdrawals (that’s what ‘Link’ means on a bank statement).

    He does have a ministerial driver and car so lets not worry about petrol – that’s a legitimate expense which at no point did he say he didn’t take.

    I would not expect to see everything but there is not even any evidence of the money for utilities passing through this one and into another understandably private household account.

    Well you would actually in fact you demand as much and when it’s provided you query whether that is truthful. Maybe his missus does pay some bills. Maybe he lifts 500 quid cash each time he makes a cash withdrawal, all three of which you missed. Maybe he has further income and maybe the wife carries the can – all irrelevant. He gets paid an industrial wage by SF. Please tell me where the problem is?

    It does confirm one thing though. Apparently Martin is not being paid by the state to be Deputy First Minister, he’s being paid by the party. Which kind of conflicts with Senator Cullinane’s assertion that his investment in the local party infrastructure is being paid by his money.

    And of course you recognise that the rules are different in the two jurisdictions? So that proves, ta dah! Nothing.

    You asked for proof. He provided it. Now you want to root through his entire families bank accounts or the accusations will continue in spite of the only proof in the public domain supporting MMG. Cathc a grip.

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  4. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    Clearly it would seem that the Shinners have much more in common with Royalty than they would have us believe.

    Neither of them appear to carry cash.

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  5. MonkDeWallyDeHonk (profile) says:

    Turgon

    Neil is correct. Anyone could come on here and imply things about any politician with no evidence.

    If you have any evidence of what you imply, then let’s have it.

    If not, then you should leave it alone.

    Frankly, unless you have any evidence to support your assertions, I think you should get a warning for trolling.

    Implying things about people without any supporting evidence requires neither intelligence nor courage.

    You’re letting your hatred of MMG run riot. Mick should nip this in the bud or it will become a free for all of snide implicatons with no supporting evidence.

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  6. Neil (profile) says:

    *family’s.

    Sorry Marty, didn’t mean to suggest you had a fancy piece tucked away in Donegal…

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  7. MonkDeWallyDeHonk (profile) says:

    Mick

    Like Neil, I don’t see the problem. MMG said that he doesn’t take his DFM salary but is paid and industrial wage by SF. As far as I can see, he has proven that to be true.

    Personally, I wouldn’t vote for MMG. However, he has provided more clarity around his finances than any of the other candidates.

    If I were MMG, I wouldn’t be prepared to release any more financial info ( if there is any) unless and until the other candidates are pressed to do the same.

    Based on experience to date, the RoI media will take the word of the others (and there’s such a record of financial honesty down there!) but continue to imply things about MMG with no evidence.

    I have no problem with MMG being asked about his IRA past – that’s fair journalism.

    However, being harrassed about his personal finances when he has been more open than the others is prejudice plain and simple.

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  8. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Yep, you are right Neil. He make a withdrawal once in the three months. On the 25th May. My bad.

    But a P60 would have cleared at least some of this up with some documentation from the party. I no more want to have people poking through Martin’s bank account than I want anyone poking through mine.

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  9. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    If you publish something like this then its up for scrutiny and if you don’t have absolutely all the details then some degree of assumption has to be necessary.

    There’s just no explanation as to why many of the normal expenses which the rest of us occur on a monthly, or even quarterly basis (given the timeframe the statement covers) just don’t appear in this bank statement.

    I don’t consider myself a huge spender, but if I was to print out my bank statements covering about 4 months or so there would be a few more pages.

    Even simple things – Marty may get a free mobile as DFM, but it would appear that neither he nor his wife appear to own a mobile phone – even if they had a pay & go one and weren’t getting a monthly bill then surely there would be a few more withdrawals to cover his top-ups.

    Marty may get driven around as DFM, but how exactly does he travel to B&M Bargains to do the shopping. Is the wife not allowed a car, or does he get his (red) diesel for free?

    Clearly, yes, an “average industrial wage” (presumably after tax) plus expenses is paid into this account by SF and some payments come out. That’s all that’s proven here – not whether he has another account(s) or not. Not whether his wife has other account(s) or not.

    Also – the letter from the manager at the start is odd. Not saying its dodgy or anything – just its odd.

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  10. DC (profile) says:

    The key word being ‘appears’ in the sentence written by the bank manager, he says it appears to be.

    I agree P60 is the best way and it doesn’t go into the nitty gritty of bank details and withdrawals.

    Also – why isn’t the balance shown anywhere?

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  11. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    DC
    Good point – the other word in the manager’s letter is that these are the only payments received on a “regular” basis.

    Nothing to state that the odd payment isn’t dropped in on occasion from SF or elsewhere to top up the unseen balance.

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  12. It is irrelevant whether Martin lives like a church mouse. He uses the “average industrial wage” thing as a moral high horse, but it makes no difference whether his wage goes into an SF account and they pay him a stipend, or whether his wage goes into his own account and he donates a large chunk to the party. He may not be in politics for personal financial gain (I don’t think anyone is suggesting that), but the taxpayer is still out of pocket by the amount of his total wage.

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  13. Ulick (profile) says:

    “There’s just no explanation as to why many of the normal expenses which the rest of us occur on a monthly, or even quarterly basis (given the timeframe the statement covers) just don’t appear in this bank statement. ”

    Nonsense there could be 101 reasons. For instance, my own salary is paid into a joint account with my wife and I then take an amount out and put into another account for my personal expenditure (tv, licence, broadband, mobile, fuel for car etc…). The point of this statement by McGuinness is to show his income and put lie to the spin coming from Mitchell and FG. He’s done that in spades.

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  14. andnowwhat (profile) black spot says:

    Looks like if Marty doesn’t get the Aras job he could do the Asda ad.

    “The first Minister’s gone to Asda”

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  15. Ulick (profile) says:

    “He may not be in politics for personal financial gain (I don’t think anyone is suggesting that), but the taxpayer is still out of pocket by the amount of his total wage.”

    Indeed but no one ever pretended the AIW was an exercise in saving money for the British Exchequer.

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  16. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    Ulick
    ” For instance, my own salary is paid into a joint account with my wife and I then take an amount out and put into another account for my personal expenditure”

    Indeed, in my case I pay my salary into my own account & then transfer out money each month into a joint account with my wife to cover the mortgage and major bills.

    Except in Marty’s account there doesn’t appear to be any transfers out to any different accounts. That’s the whole point – there doesn’t appear to be any way in which the normal payments of life are paid for.

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  17. Ulick (profile) says:

    @Carsons Cat
    “Except in Marty’s account there doesn’t appear to be any transfers out to any different accounts.”

    There are cheques and credit cards. We all have our own way of handling our personal finances. I’m twenty years younger than McGuinness and have DDs and Standing Orders all over the place. My father however who is 10 years older than McGuinness keeps everything in the Post Office and a Credit Union account. He makes one withdrawal every month and pays all the bills in cash. It’s not beyond the bounds of reasonableness that McGuinness has a system that falls somewhere between the two.

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  18. The man’s never out of ASDA.

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  19. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    I’d also like to see his credit card statement.

    Nothing to prove that he pays off the balance only from that account. He could be spending on that credit card with the rest of the balance being paid off from another outside source…

    If he’s that keen on transparency then he needs to show everything.

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  20. Maybe he has found a really good ASDA where he can pay all his bills and just gets cashback on his groceries?

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  21. It is McGuinness who has made his income an issue by which we are supposed to judge his quality as a political leader.

    The bank statement says very little about his income; and given that McGuinness is a leader of an organisation that was embedded in illegality then questions can legitimately be raised.

    However, of greater significance concerning the claims of Sinn Fein and McGuinness to be the true party and leaders of the people against the rich and powerful are their involvement in Stormont and the control Stormont operates on behalf of the capitalist ruling class.

    Adams claims that the ‘Brits’ give them only so much funding and they have to cut theit cloth accordingly. David Camero says nothing different, except substitute the ‘Brits’ with the crisis, the market, the banks…. .

    Sinn Fein’s claim can, and should be turned on its head.
    Rather than SF being the defenders of the people against the powerful, they act on behalf of the powerful against the people.

    Even if the claims of McGuinness concerning his current income were true this does not preclude, as McGunness claims it does, that he is in fact a reperesentative of the oppressor and not the oppressed.

    Making a virtue of his supposed income reminds me of nothing more than a self-flagellating religious ascetic; and also of someone who has cynical disregard for the real struggle of the people.

    The financial titans are the masters of McGuinnes. Just as they are the masters of the so called ‘lefts’ in the trade unions and the Socialist Party/SWP.

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  22. Dec (profile) says:

    ‘I’d also like to see his credit card statement. ‘

    Why don’t you publish yours online to help foster a sense of greater transparency.

    ‘The man’s never out of ASDA.’

    Interesting contribution, Chris. What retailers do you think politicians should visit and how often?

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  23. Ulick (profile) says:

    “It is McGuinness who has made his income an issue by which we are supposed to judge his quality as a political leader.”

    No, it was Gay Mitchell who made it an issue – on the Dunphy show at the weekend and again last night.

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  24. @Dec: My comments were quite clearly an effort to make light of the story and the fact that we have access to quite personal details of politicians lives.

    I quite agree with you and I am not interested in the details of his grocery shopping, nor would I want to comment on where and how often politicians should go.

    However obviously my attempt at humour fell on deaf ears in the serious, serious world of a website called “Slugger O’Toole” and with that in mind I will make sure I conduct myself in a less humorous manner more befitting of the website in future.

    If you would like me to explain the meaning of a “joke” to you, however, I would be more than happy to do so.

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  25. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    Did a Southern journalist not recently report Marty leaving an RTE studio and getting into a BMW X5? If he can do that on the pittance on this bank statement he should be appointed Minister of Finance immediately!

    Btw given that Marty claims to be a Socialist Warrior I’m surprised that he gives his custom to so many Multinationals. How can the Irish peasant farmer and local artisan hope to survive when even Shinners forsake them to fill the coffers of International Financier Corporocrats?

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  26. Ulick (profile) says:

    “Did a Southern journalist not recently report Marty leaving an RTE studio and getting into a BMW X5?”

    He has a car and driver provided for him.

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  27. Jimmy Sands (profile) says:

    It’s a little known fact that each Irish industrial worker has the use of a chauffeur driven BMW.

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  28. Jimmy Sands (profile) says:

    “It also details assorted withdrawals made by Mr. McGuiness:”

    Must…resist…

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  29. Carsons Cat (profile) says:

    Dec,
    I’ll publish my credit card statements the moment I declare myself as a candidate to be President of the Irish Republic.

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  30. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    I doubt he’s campaigning in a Ministerial car lads. Besides, aren’t the Ministerial cars all Skodas?

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  31. AGlassOfHine (profile) black spot says:

    A full and comprehensive statement,and I,for one,applaud it.
    Just wondering what the point of it is ?

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  32. keano10 (profile) says:

    McGuinness shops at Asda shocker…!

    Part 2 – McGuinness asked to reveal exact contents of his Milk Bottle in which he saves his unused coppers. How many of these coins go to his party coffers and, if not, why not…?

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  33. McGuinness stated from the outset, as part of his political platform, that he receives the average wage.

    Fine Gael’s Mitchell cynically exploits that for his own end; but it does not negate that it is SF and McGuinness (and the Socialist Party) who make the average wage claim a central plank of their platform.

    It is a rather crude ploy. For it infers a veracity with regard to equality. However, the politicos that defend capitalist rule are on the first step to getting inside the loop. Rewards MAY be temporarily suspended.

    It is not possible to be a fighter for equality (and a socialist future) and put through cuts in social spending; and uphold the capitalist state aopparatus.

    It is not possible to be a leader of the working class and then lead the working class into the embrace of the trade unions.

    The average wage issue is significant. it points up the paucity of program that the nationalists and the ‘lefts’ have to offer. They are reduced to stunts.

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  34. Ulick (profile) says:

    Mick, no one said it was a Ministerial car. SF have a network of supporters and activists who are only too happy to chauffeur people around.

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  35. John Ó Néill (profile) says:

    I was going to post a reply to this but words fail me…

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  36. Alias (profile) says:

    If McGuinness intends to give the bulk of his salary to his party then those who vote for him are also voting to fund his party.

    That should make FF’ers with no official candidate to vote for think twice before voting for McGuinness and thereby funding a rival political party.

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  37. between the bridges (profile) says:

    The bank statement neither proves nor disproves anything, those who want to believe, will and those that don’t, wont. However its release is designed to enable the great leader to claim to have dealt with the issue. Anyone wishing further clarification will be dismissed as having a bias/conducting a witch hunt, against poor wee st martyr.

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  38. Nevin (profile) says:

    “McGuinness is a leader of an organisation that was embedded in illegality then questions can legitimately be raised.”

    Mervyn, I didn’t hear any questions being asked about the PRM’s income from its oil and cigarette trade. Perhaps Martin mightn’t be told about any of that unless he’s Army Council’s Minister of Finance.

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  39. Into the west (profile) black spot says:

    MMG has proved he gets the average wage.

    If there’s any humour around ASDA will come out ,
    promoting him for president

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  40. sonofstrongbow (profile) says:

    “SF have a network of supporters and activists who are only too happy to chauffeur people around.”

    Indeed. But were they not used to providing one-way journeys only?

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  41. Alias (profile) says:

    The salary for Irish president is €325000.

    His present salary from PSF is £19,200.00 per year (£1600 per month). That converts into euros at €22,284 per year.

    So that leaves €302,716 per year to fund PSF – or €2,119,012 over a full term of office.

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  42. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    I don’t think its going to go to the party Alias. It’s only safe to extrapolate from the dFM role.

    Ulick, my apologies for that pointless clarification…

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  43. Nunoftheabove (profile) says:

    Mick

    You raise an interesting point about McG being paid in effect a – excuse the phrase – stipend by the party rather than being paid directly by the state.

    Presumably though the state does not play ball with this and pays him in the conventional manner and then he hands his salary over to the party who then pay him back a proportion of this directly ? Does that in effect/reality make him an employee of SF as well as – as opposed to instead of – the state ? If it’s the latter, why can’t/won’t he show us the transactions between himself and the party whereby this transfer takes place ?

    Is the salary taxed twice or once, at source (as I imagine it must be) or also at the point at which he receives it from the party ? What’s the tax treatment of the net amount he pays over to the party which he never directly sees again and only receives a portion of ?

    Does he also get paid the full whack expenses from the state or does he too also hand this over to the SF treasurer who in turn settles a portion of his expenses periodically ? If his bank account is only showing his party-approved salary and miscellaneuous domestic outgoings where’s the expenses money going to (both from Stormont and from Westminster) ?

    If he’s not a party candidate in this election will the funding of his campaign come from outside of the party or will they be effectively donating his election fund from their own coffers ?

    I don’t sniff any kind of conspiracy here but it does give rise to one or two issues which he may prefer not to have subject to further scrutiny. Potential tactical error or a superficial gimmick gesture further to his interview with Dunphy and Mitchell ? Transparency only really persuades anyone when it’s broad and deep enough and he may live to regret this one.

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  44. Alias (profile) says:

    The precedents are all there for the party being the beneficiary of a reduced salary to members. He gets the full salary so what he does with it after that is entirely at his discretion. If he is elected, he’ll no longer have an expedient incentive to promise the money to any source other than the party.

    Plus, of course, he’ll still get the full allowance (more than the salary) and full pension.

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  45. Dec (profile) says:

    chrisbrowne28

    I like jokes though my personal preference are for those that a) are funny and b) aren’t required to be repeated after 7 minutes because no-one got it the first time.

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  46. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    No direct debits (electric, telephone, rates). No cash withdrawals. No petrol bills, nothing in fact that suggests Martin’s contributing to the household at all, other than the occasional shopping bill

    Martin McGuinness’ wife runs a very successful business in Derry.

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  47. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    So that leaves €302,716 per year to fund PSF

    Martin McGuinness said he would use the money to give employment to six young people from the South.

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  48. Dec (profile) says:

    Carsons cat

    ‘I’ll publish my credit card statements the moment I declare myself as a candidate to be President of the Irish Republic.’

    I wasn’t aware that this is a requirement but I believe you would nonetheless.

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  49. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    I don’t own a BMW X5. I’ve been picked up from work in one. Does that make it mine?

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  50. summerhill (profile) says:

    Now I understand why Martin Mc Guinness will not own up to membership of the IRA after 1974 if this is the response to him simply publishing his bank statements. Can you even begin to imagine what would happen if he ever ‘fessed up to ongoing membership? I doubt very much if it would be a case of ‘Why thank you Martin for that clarfication- no more questions’

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  51. Neil (profile) says:

    Summerhill,

    how true. People demand proof he gets this wage from the party, he provides it and what happens? They want his bank statements, in full, his family’s bankstatements, his credit card statements, statements from any other bank accounts he may hold, details on any other income he receives (which is no-one’s business at all), have I missed anything?

    As I said, catch a grip folks. If you wish to continue hunting around for proof (over and above the prrof provided that he does indeed draw and industrial wage from the party) of some unspecified wrongdoing, by all means go for it. Just don’t assume a southern voter is as bitter as your average Unionist.

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  52. Todd (profile) says:

    Why are Unionists even commenting on this post.

    Surely its nothing to do with them, unless the believe that the island of Ireland is one country!

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  53. Alias (profile) says:

    “Martin McGuinness said he would use the money to give employment to six young people from the South.”

    He also said that he left PIRA in 1974, so you’ll forgive if I don’t accept his word as a reliable bond.

    Besides, six young people employed by the PSF party is job creation of a sort but isn’t it a tad partitionist to stipulate that they be from south of the border? Next thing you know President Marty will be protesting about the Irish government importing foreign chickens from NI…

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  54. The Bank Statement certainly seems to prove the financial arrangement between Mr McGuinness and his Party.
    It is not a “certificate of income”. Many Sluggerites of a certain vintage who went to University will be familiar with “certificates of income”. They were available from the Inland Revenue on request of a self-employed taxpayer……who then presented this “To Whom It May Concern” document to such bodies as a Building Society, for a mortgage or an Education Board for “grant purposes”.
    While such certicates were relatively straight forward in terms of PAYE taxpayers….eg a major employers info (based on weekly or monthly earnings) to the Revenue was likely to be accurate….it was always………shall we say problematic in respect of self employed…………which was of course based largely on the accuracy of the information supplied in accounts to Revenue………I am not of course suggesting that people in self-employment are more dishonest than PAYE people………merely that it is easier for them to be economical with the truth (especially in cash businesses).
    Therefore…….as far as it goes……there is no reason to doubt what Mr McGuinness said.
    The question had been posed.
    He answered. Not appropriate to challenge it……especially if those so doing arent actually prepared to make the same disclosures.
    Those of us with longish memories of “certificates of income” might also recall that they included the “mothers income” as she was a mere chattel (in Revenue terms).
    As Mrs McGuinness..isnt actually standing for elections her income is hardly relevant.

    But fair play to mr McGuinness. The attack dogs are having a feeding frenzy.and he threw a bone to the attack dogs……and theres not a lot of meat on it. Starving dogs tend to attack each other in the end.

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  55. Nunoftheabove (profile) says:

    summerhill

    There is one pretty significant difference that springs to mind – he won’t do porridge for showing us this bank statement. I personally don’t blame him for not being more forthcoming about his ‘Ra membership/ connection/involvement after 1974 – why would he disclose all in the circumstances ? He’d be nuts to for the moment.

    I do however have a problem with him telling what I and most people would consider straightforward untruths about his past, a sign in itself that we are unlikely ever to have an amnesty or at least a very clear sign that if there ever is such an amnesty unsaying what he’s now multiply put on the record is unthinkable.

    Not to sound too callous about it, but in the context of his running for the Presidency I’m – at least in one sense – less concerned about his past that I am about his apparent enthusiasm for needlessly and repeatedly telling lies about it. Adopting a standardized and extremely repetitious “no comment – mind your own business and that’s as far as I am willing to go about the matter” line is not as undignified as volunteering transparently untrue statements devoid of the remotest plausibility and is a hell of a lot more ethically defensible in the circumstances. It now appears that he has been very poorly advised – or failed to heed decent advice – in the run up to the Saville testimony. For a career politician to make tactical errors of that magnitude in itself might be grounds for calling into question his judgment.

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  56. Mark (profile) says:

    ” McGuinness’s wife used to work in a cafe in William Street . Now she owns it ”

    What’s your point Donal ??

    That just tells me Mrs McGuinness ( like her husband ) is a hard working ambitious person .

    As for the brother bit …… Is he running for President ?

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  57. Munsterview (profile) black spot says:

    Turgon “…purporting to be Martin McGuinness’s. ….”

    Mick : you could do with having your legal eagles cast a beady eyen on that one. The Bank Of Ireland Bank Manager in Derry released what he was satisfied was the Martin McGuniess bank account requested.

    There was nothing ‘purported’ about it !

    ‘Purported’ has a very definate meaning indecating that something is not specifically what it is supposed to be and to associate the Bank manager with alleged wrongdowing is to question his boni fedies, his integrity and it ais a gratitious slur on his character.

    A year I would have said that such contemptable behaviour is unworthy of this particular blogger but sadly, it has proven par for the course.

    It is indeed ironic that a source so dismissive of IRA bomb colletaral damage claims, should be so fixited with putting the boot into Republicans and discrediting them that, this same source is entirely indifferent to what collateral reputational damage they do to respected, innocent parties.

    Irish Central have been a bit more objective in their assesment……

    The Sinn Fein hopeful has always maintained that he takes just over $2,000 a month from his wage packet with the rest going to the party coffers.

    Mitchell has disputed this claim but McGuinness’s bank accounts appear to verify it after his bank manager went public with the figures.

    The Bank of Ireland in Derry released full accounts for McGuinness and his wife after calls from Mitchell for a full revelation of the earnings of all candidates.

    Sean Hegarty, commercial manager at the bank’s Strand Road branch in the City, stated that Martin and Bernadette McGuinness receive a regular monthly payment of just over $2,000 from a Sinn Fein account.

    “Other than very occasional expense refunds, this appears to be the only funds received into this account on a regular basis,” said Hegarty.

    Personal debit details on the account were blanked out on the statement but did reveal that the McGuinness family has shopped at supermarkets Asda, Musgraves, Tesco and clothing stores TK Maxx and Fosters in recent months.

    Fine Gael’s Presidential candidate Mitchell has refused to believe the figures however.

    “I don’t believe much of what Sinn Féin say. They make it up, just to get over, to get over the latest hump, they will say what needs to be said,” claimed Mitchell.

    Topics: News from Ireland , Irish presidential race , Martin McGuinness

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    Report abusePosted by cillowen on Oct 05, 2011, 11:25 AM EDT

    Hound dog looker, that Fine Gael’s Gay Mitchell needs to get a life – wonder who’s behind his constant attack on this NI hero, politician, diplomat who serves for little monetary reward — no one gives a rat’s if this freak of nature doesn’t believe him.

    Report abusePosted by Trealach on Oct 05, 2011, 10:28 AM EDT

    Mitchell had no difficulty in believing Bank Managers before, why not now, or is he now going to be stupid enough to accuse the Bank Manager of fabricating Bank Statements? Say bye bye Mitchell, your candidacy has just gone down the tubes!! Sheeeshhhh do those West Brit idiots know how to shoot themselves in the head – thank God!!

    Read more: http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Martin-McGuinness-bank-accounts-back-up-low-pay-claims–131129723.html#ixzz1ZvKLeiXU

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  58. Greenflag (profile) says:

    No matter what McGuinness releases and no matter what he says those who are opposed to everything SF stands for will find something else to try and ‘blacken’ the candidate .

    Well at least all of the above contributions have helped me to finally decide who I’ll be voting for which up to quite recently I would not have considered for more than a 3rd or 4th preference . It’ll be number 1 for McGuinness . Sorry Mary Davis you’ll have to settle for number 2 and Norris number 3 . Mitchell will get the 7th slot and Higgins number 6 with Dana at 4 and Gallagher at 5.

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  59. summerhill (profile) says:

    Nunofthe above

    I cant speak for most people – I can only speak for myself. It does seem however that a lot of people in Mid Ulster whoi voted for Martin Mc Guinness have no problems whatsoever with his stance on when he left the IRA. It also seems that a lot of people in both Louth and West Belfast have no problems whatsoever with voting in a Sinn Féin leader who wasnt even in the IRA. Do you think that these voters have a deeper understanding of the reasons why or a higher level of foregiveness by voting for both these people? Or?

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  60. Republic of Connaught (profile) says:

    Greenflag,

    That’s interesting. I think many people have become bored and tired of the endless McGuinness attacks. The harsh truth is he’s a heavyweight in among the odd middleweight and mostly lightweights. He’s definitely the best candidate by a mile and would be the best President.

    But having heard the pain in Ann Traver’s voice on the Joe Duffy show and knowing there are many out there like her on our own little island who still carry such family scars from IRA atrocities, I couldn’t vote for McGuinness as President.

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  61. Alias (profile) says:

    summerhill, I think some of those voters would have voted for McGuinness and other Shinners as part of the agenda of injecting them into the political process as an alternative to violence so they’d have overcome any moral reservation about rewarding murder by that expediency. Others, of course, wouldn’t have cared about who or how many the Shinners murdered just as long as there was something in it for them as voter by voting that way.

    However. none of that is relevant in the Irish presidential election since no one is arguing that McGuinness will return to organising sectarian murder if not elected in November.

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  62. Alias (profile) says:

    Err, later in October.

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  63. Nunoftheabove (profile) says:

    summerhill

    It’s not really a question of whether they have a problem with his stance on when he left; the more interesting question – for me, at any rate – is what else they are or might be prepared to turn a blind eye to in terms of distortions of the truth besides that and the extent to which they can by the same token tolerate/support similar departures from the actuality from other politicians.

    It could just be that they overlook this one precisely because he’s on a hiding to nothing disclosing the truth now (quite aside from being ‘one of their own’), it is just conceivable that there’s a stronger toleration of plain untruth out there than we’re not fully prepared to acknowledge. Not yet, anyway.

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  64. Greenflag (profile) says:

    ‘Mitchell had no difficulty in believing Bank Managers before,’

    Neither did Cowen or Lenihan or Gilmore or Noonan or indeed any of the Republic’s established parties until it was discovered that our Finance Minister did’nt have a bank account and from 2008 through to to Lenihan and Cowen signing the ‘bailout ‘ the banks consistently lied to government about their balance sheets or more accurately failed to disclose the truth.

    I would like to see all of the Dail politicians take another pay cut so that they too can become ‘competitive ‘ with their more productive competitors in Denmark or in the Netherlands or even Finland all who managed to keep their countries from being ‘gouged ‘ by their banks and whose politicians did’nt compound the gouging by gouging their taxpayers to refill the coffers of the banksters !

    Mitchell probably won’t believe the voting figures he will see on October 28th either . I suppose he’ll then accuse the poll counters of not being able to count . What a gobshite :(

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  65. RoC,

    McGuinness is by far the most able politician in the presidential race, but he’s too political to be a good president.

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  66. Alias (profile) says:

    Greenflag, the sympathy vote isn’t going to be a significant factor. But the ‘two fingers to the establishment’ vote will be a factor.

    As for the floating FF vote, that’s split between McGuinness and Dana.

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  67. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Well, we’re leaving the subject again lads (although I’d really like to hear where you think Davis, Gallagher’s vote came from Alias? Can’t all be FG.)

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  68. Greenflag (profile) says:

    @ Republic of Connaught ,

    ‘I couldn’t vote for McGuinness as President’

    Up to a week or so back I would have said the same . A week is a long time in politics . Well at least it’s only for President and not Taoiseach although to give our establishment parties the credit they don’t deserve if they keep up this kind of performance SF will soon be providing the Republic with it’s Taoiseach .

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  69. Alias (profile) says:

    FG have a small core vote. It just looks bigger because FF’ers defected at the last election.

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  70. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Guys, back to the subject in hand. What does this prove? Next to nothing, other than in an account at said bank the Manager tells us this appears to be all the payments in and out.

    To be frank, I do not want to know that the first minister shops in Asda. If he feels the need to tell us how much he gets and how much goes to his party, then a P60 is much less personal and much less ambiguous.

    Why on earth did they publish this information? Those who say it merely provokes more questions are right. It does.

    Alias,

    [Off topic again]

    Which means the floating FF vote is actually all over the place, presumably. The last poll only gave 21% between Martin and Dana. Half of that was core SF at the last election. Take it down to eleven pe cent. Fold in 5% ULA cross voting for SF. And between the two (drawing from Red C), they are only bringing an extra six per cent.

    There’s a lot more than 6% in the floating FF vote that’s not yet going to either. And so, perhaps, a lot for SF to play for.

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  71. Jimmy Sands (profile) says:

    The problem with this “average industrial wage” claim is that it’s a gimmick, and a patronising one at that. The precarious existences endured by many who live one pay cheque away from eviction cannot be lived vicariously this way. It’s like when a tory MP spends a week showing how he can live perfectly well on the dole and have money left over. You’re right Mick, no-one wants to know if he shops at Asda. The scam here is pretending that we asked.

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  72. summerhill (profile) says:

    Nunoftheabove

    It seems to me that people ( dont know how many) are prepared to accept things during armed conflict /war/ struggle / troubles ( extraordinary times) which they would not accept during ordinary times. Have listened to Unionist leaders talking about the ‘Coventry Principle’ in relation to deeds either carried out by the State ( collusion) or by people purporting to act on behalf of Unionism ( Loyalist groups).This, I assumed, was a reference to the decision by the British Government to let the bombing of Coventry go ahead during WW11 rather than let the Germans know that the British ahd cracked their intelligence system. What I took this to mean in relation to the violence in the Ireland was that ‘ yes some awful things were done on our behalf or in our name but it was for the greater good’. Maybe peoples acceptance of Martin Mc Guinness’s stance is the republican equivalent of the ‘Coventry Principle’.

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  73. Greenflag (profile) says:

    ‘But the ‘two fingers to the establishment’ vote will be a factor.’

    It will and most will go to McGuinness . Whats left of the FF vote will be seen in the Dublin West by election on the same day . It’s odds on that FF will lose it’s last seat in Dublin which fact will change the floating vote to a submerged vote in future elections . With the failure of FF to nominate a candidate questions will be asked as to whether they even have a political future under the FF moniker. . Their performance in opposition has been abysmal which is only heightened by the fact that the FG coalition are just FF by another name .

    The established parties seem to think and believe that the voters have forgotten . They haven’t .The more the meejah probe disproportionately at McGuinness the more the voters will be reminded that they still have TDs and Ministers who are paid more than their British or German or Finnish equivalents and for what ? A Greek level of political performance .

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  74. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    He also said that he left PIRA in 1974

    And of course you have taken your evidence to An Garda Síochána, who have given a file to the PPS so that he can be convicted for membership?

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  75. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    There is a certain about of smoke and mirrors going on with SF’s talk of being paid by their party. Whether they want this to be the case or not does not matter; the Assembly Commission will pay the salaries to the individual MLAs, presumably through the PAYE system like everyone else, and this will have tax deducted. Martin McGuinness’ earnings and undoubted other interests mean that it is almost certain that he has to file a tax return. that is the document that would be interesting here, not his P60 which at this stage would probably simply show the earnings recorded from his Assembly salary.

    Jimmy, I don’t think it’s a scam, it’s just politics. SF’s line here is “all those other ones are milking it whereas we are living a simple existence just like the rest of you”. For the same reason Carál Ní Chuilín’s regularly tweets about having to go home and do ironing and hoovering.

    The amusing thing to me is that a net salary of £1500 (after tax) is equivalent to an annual salary of £23000, which is around £11 per hour, almost double the minimum wage. I’d be very surprised if the average salary of the lowest 80% of wage-earners in NI was anything like this.

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  76. Framer (profile) says:

    The bank statement is largely irrelevant and slightly frightening in that SF as a matter of course get MPs’ and MLAs’ salaries paid to the party and then they live off a party handout.

    Strong hint of discipline here.

    I presume and hope they are all none the less taxed at 40%.

    But in truth it doesn’t matter as the SF MPs still cost taxpayers a full salary and sets of expenses. It is their choice what to do with it and whether to pass it on to others.

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  77. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    Didn’t Billy Leonard leave Sinn Fein because he didn’t agree with the industrial wage issue?

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  78. Rory Carr (profile) says:

    “It does confirm one thing though. Apparently Martin is not being paid by the state to be Deputy First Minister, he’s being paid by the party.”

    Well actually, Mick, it does nothing of the sort. McGuinness is paid a salary by the state as Deputy First Minister and, to clear up another point, his P60 from the Assembly would reflect this payment, so showing that he earned, not the industrial wage, but rather a Deputy First Minister’s salary, from which he would have the appropriate tax and NIC deducted. However in keeping with Sinn Féin policy, he would then turn this net salary over to the party which would then pass back to him an amount equivalent to the average net industrial wage which is what we presumably see reflected in the bank statements.

    His P60 form would thus not clarify anything other than that the state pays him a salary net of the stautory deductions,

    Unfortunately the bank statements do not clarify matters either – they merely show that he has a bank account into which Sinn Féin have been paying an amount monthly and that is all does show. For absolute clarity’s sake we really need also to see the receipt of the net DFM salary into this account, or another account and to then see a like sum being paid over to Sinn Féin.

    I am afraid that in such instances a glimpse of stocking is sufficient only to titillate and the boys in the front row will be now demanding full frontal. Best not to start them off. But too late now.

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  79. 241934 john brennan (profile) says:

    Oh, what a tangled web we weave’.

    Deceit or not, Gerry and Marty both live in very tangled webs. What they presently say completely contradicts what they preached in the past – and who knows what they will assert as gospel truth tomorrow!

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  80. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Indeed Rory, here is the link showing Sinn Féin representatives being paid substantially more than an average wage.

    I guess that in practice the SF MLAs all specify a central SF bank account into which the Assembly pays their salaries, with some other provision being made for expenses and OCA.

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  81. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    It would clear up the exact amount paid, the tax deducted and the party could provide the rest. Then we don’t get into this distinctly personal territory, which only gives rise to yet more bloody questions nobody wants to be asking.

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  82. Nunoftheabove (profile) says:

    Does anyone know how SF would account for the classification of the monies paid onward to the MLAs or whether they have audited accounts which would show the detail of this ?

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  83. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Actually I defer to CS… The point is that whilst I may agree that it is virtuous, it is also highly irregular. Which means that when questions get asked the answers are, well, complicated. And, as Rory notes, they beg more questions.

    But in any case, that’s not the questioner’s fault!

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  84. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Mick,

    Indeed SF have invited this line of questioning. However, I suspect in practice the voters won’t care much. Gerry Adams supposedly has holiday homes all over the joint, this was well publicized and it didn’t stop him storming home in W Belfast – or Louth.

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  85. Alias (profile) says:

    Mick, as it’s off-topic, I’ll just say that is far more scientific than my subjective method. If you look at Gay Mitchell, his support is circa a quarter of the number who voted for his party. That anomaly signals that something is oddly awry in the Irish political world. That puts most of the FG voters back into the floating voter category. Also in there are all of the FF voters. It’s going to be a maverick election but the right questions haven’t been asked in the polls yet so I wouldn’t rely on them for an accurate outcome. For example, there is the dynamic of the sympathy vote mentioned (that ‘unfair’ criticism of him will translate into support) but I don’t see it in play even if it has worked for the Shinners in the past. It’s the pointless protest vote here that is, I guess, responsible for the Mitchell anomaly but doesn’t factor at all in Red C. The Shinners know that but are circumscribed as to how they try to capitalise on it, e.g. attempts to pose as an opposition backfire as criticism that they are politicising the office.

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  86. DC (profile) says:

    Maybe this is just what Ireland deserves, an ethically bankrupt politician for an economically bankrupt country?

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  87. ThomasMourne (profile) says:

    SF politicians make a virtue of their only taking an average industrial wage, giving the impression that the taxpayer is better off as a result. Not true, of course. And they conveniently forget to mention all the expenses, perks, etc which come with the job and which have a substantial monetary value.

    Perhaps an accountant could explain how the transfer of the ‘extra’ salary to the Party is treated by the Inland Revenue and how the subsequent payment to the elected representative from the Party is also treated.

    What inspection is there of Sinn Fein accounts by the authorities?

    Comrade Stalin says that “… in practice the voters won’t care much.” Unfortunately quite a few won’t care, just as a lot of electors did not care about PIRA activities in the rise of SF in the polls.

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  88. Alias (profile) says:

    McGuinness won’t gain any advantage from claiming to live on a monthly salary that is less than the average monthly mortgage repayment. If anything, a political class that advocated that kind of advanced paid deflation would scare the hell out of voters. The IMF would probably vote for him…

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  89. Alias (profile) says:

    Typo: “…advanced wage deflation…”

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  90. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    Perhaps an accountant could explain how the transfer of the ‘extra’ salary to the Party is treated by the Inland Revenue and how the subsequent payment to the elected representative from the Party is also treated.

    It would be interesting to know, but since the full salary as paid by the Assembly is already taxed under PAYE, the donation of the net salary and subsequent reimbursement of part of it is probably counted in the same way as if the representative had paid only the difference between their “industrial wage” and their full salary as a donation to the party.

    It’d be interesting to know exactly what the rules are that allow MLAs to be expensed tax free. I know if my employer gave me a car and a driver to collect me from home every morning I’d be having it taxed as benefit in kind. It’s bad enough if they just give you a company car.

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  91. articles (profile) says:

    Enough’s enough. Let’s take what Marty says at face value. He takes the average industrial wage.

    And after all he is a six county man and there is a chance that he might end up in Áras an Uachtaráin and like it or not he will be representing the North (us) as well as Ireland when:
    -he meets the great and the good at home and abroad,
    -he visits each of the 32 counties and meets the ordinary people, and
    - he meets everybody in between the two extremes.

    If you doubt that that is a lot of meetings I suggest you look up the President’s website and go to engagements.The job is no sinecure.

    I think we’re all agreed at the very least he’s going to need a few decent suits. But the question is simply this. How the feck is he going to buy all these suits on £350 a week?

    Let’s face it, if he’s not going to let the North down, we’re all going to have to have a whip round every other week to supplement his industrial wage.

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  92. Mick Fealty (profile) says:

    Alias,

    I agree with some of your caveats there. But I think rather than continue off topic, I’m going to start a new thread on this subject. Be grateful if you could contribute?

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  93. raindog (profile) says:

    Apparently Marty does’t pay any utilities at all from his bank account or have a phone or internet connection. Must be tough for him living in the dark, with no running water or gas to cook all the food he’s buying in ASDA.

    I’m getting the feeling that Martin is being economical with the truth here and offering up only partial truths but certianly not the whole picture.

    This statement proves that he gets £1,600 from Sinn Fein into this particular account (which isn’t even in his own name). It DOESN”T prove that this is ALL he gets from Sinn Fein, or whether he gets nothing else from any other source as it is not a view on all his accounts – just this one convenient but incomplete (from a spending pattern of modern day life perspective).

    As he apparently doesn’t seem to pay for any utilities of phones or mobile phones – this statement only goes to prove that ther IS other accounts and that he has another (undeclared) source of income and avenues of expenditure than this account – quite the opposite in fact to what he’s claiming.

    Ireland says NO or as Martin might say it The 26 Counties says NO.

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  94. raindog (profile) says:

    Wish i’d proof read that before sending!
    Here it is again with corrections.
    ______________________________________________

    Apparently Marty does’t pay any utilities at all from his bank account or have a phone or internet connection. Must be tough for him living in the dark, with no running water or gas to cook all the food he’s buying in ASDA.

    I’m getting the feeling that Martin is being economical with the truth here and offering up only partial truths but certainly not the whole picture.

    This statement proves that he gets £1,600 from Sinn Fein into this particular account (which isn’t even in his own name). It DOESN”T prove that this is ALL he gets from Sinn Fein, or whether he gets anything else from any other source as it is not a view on all his accounts – it’s just this one convenient but incomplete (from a spending pattern of modern day life perspective) one.

    As he apparently doesn’t seem to pay for any utilities or phones or mobile phones – this statement only goes to prove that there IS other accounts and that he has another (undeclared) source of income and avenues of expenditure than this account – quite the opposite in fact to what he’s claiming.

    Ireland says NO or as Martin might say it The 26 Counties says NO.

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  95. Cynic2 (profile) says:

    “Let’s face it, if he’s not going to let the North down, we’re all going to have to have a whip round every other week to supplement his industrial wage.”

    Now that’s not fair. He can graze free of charge on all those free meals, business breakfasts etc. Its clear from his bank account that someone else already pays for his electric, lights, heat, rates etc. The job comes with a free car. As over 60 the DSS in de Nurth will even pay him Winter Fuel Allowance in case he has trouble heating Aaras.

    So we should cut a deal with him. Four free suits a year from Arnotts should do it. Plus free fishing rights on the Liffey near O’Connell Street. That should swing it.

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  96. articles (profile) says:

    Hold on Cynic. There you go again.

    Martin McGuiness gave up fishing in 1976 and left the Irish Fisherman’s Association thereafter; he has never inflicted suffering on that animal either for sport or food since. He believes the torture and slaughter of fish is wrong and is committed to peaceful vegetarianism but if elected President he would be more than happy to meet the most famous fly fisher of them all, the Queen Mother, were she still spinning too.

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  97. JH (profile) says:

    “SF politicians make a virtue of their only taking an average industrial wage, giving the impression that the taxpayer is better off as a result. Not true, of course.”

    Errr so the money that goes into the party rather than to the top dogs to employ drivers/campaign/press/street teams, manufacture and print literature, rent the fecking WATERFRONT for the Ard Fheis etc… is of no benefit to the taxpayer or the wider economy?

    I know young law graduates who have work experience in the European Parliament on their CVs thanks to SF and from what I gather they pay everyone something, however small.

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  98. JH,

    All money gets spent. The party could rent the waterfront, or Martin could buy a swimming pool. Either way, somebody gets a job. That’s not the point.

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  99. galloglaigh (profile) says:

    Such bullshit.

    The suits that Sinn Fein elected reps. wear, are paid for by the party. So much whataboutery, mopery, and general jealously.

    Muppets!

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  100. articles (profile) says:

    “The suits that Sinn Fein elected reps. wear, are paid for by the party.”

    Messrs Kelly and Adams are well enough dressed but I’m not so sure about Mr McGuiness, I’d get a new tailor.

    Oops sorry, the suits are “paid for the party” in which case I’d get a new party.

    Oops sorry, he has got a new party or rather he’s flying solo now as an Independent but still taking an industrial wage from Sinn Fein.

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