• HeinzGuderian

    The definition of sectarianism is someone with the mono ability to focus his wee lens on all things non nat/rep !! ;-)

  • andnowwhat

    In their defence Moochin, being sectarian, racist and homophobic all at the same time must take some serious effort.

  • http://www.e-consultation.org/ davenewman

    What a strange definition. I bet you can’t get it to stay in Wikipedia!

  • JR

    Aonther of sluggers keyboard warriors who thinks it is a bigger crime to take a photo of a swastica and sectarian grafitti than to paint it.

  • Dec

    Ok, I get the NF, C18, swastika (wrong way round but never mind) and the ubiquitous whatabouterey but what does the ATAT mean (I’m assuming it’s not a Star Wars reference)?

  • Mark McGregor

    Dec,

    All Taigs Are Targets. Has a mirror in All Huns Are Targets (AHAT).

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    All Taigs Are Targets

    in what is supposed to represent cross hairs of a rifle

    You also see All Huns Are Targets

  • andnowwhat

    Does Jim Shannon write ADAT on gable walls in Greyabbey?

  • http://WindowsIDHotmail madraj55

    And there I was thinking it was the initials for the US phone system. The KAI one was claimed to be a n innocenrt reference to a former Rangers player from last century, but few are fooled.

  • JackCade

    Nice photo sir. It doesn’t sound like a good idea to equate sectarianism with the racism and homophobia. Sectarianism is about religion and politics, which are both choices, whereas the other two are innate. If someone says they are born with their religion and politics, then it is exactly that inflexible in-group identification that is the problem. I have politics and religious beliefs that I share with others, but I am not part of anyone’s group.

  • Dec

    Cheers Mark/Mooch

    I wonder will good old FTP/FTQ ever make a comeback like yo-yos?

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    The only ftq i have seen is down in Dublin and they were stickers opposing her visit. Sadly FTP is still prevalent …..feck the pope/paramilitaries/police*

  • http://www.unionistlite.blogspot.com oneill

    From the BBC

    “The commission argued that viewing sectarianism as “Protestant-Catholic religious prejudice, political factionalism, or even ‘tribalism’ ” placed it outside the context of well-established international human rights law, specifically the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, which came into force back in 1969″

    Theoretically, yes, but it is a typical NIHRC non-sequiter.

    If “sectarianism” (as it is defined by almost everybody, including the Human Rights lobby) is not the same as “racism” then it is obviously not covered by legislation or “conventions” dealing with racism. That doesn’t make it “better” or “worse” than racism, just different.

    If anything the NIHRC are starting to wander (no doubt unwittingly as most of their actions usually are) along the path of religio-national stereotyping here by attempting to equate the two.

  • andnowwhat

    So, are these guys saying that if you’re a pro union, Dawkins loving, RC rejecting, couldn’t give a toss about Celtic type dandering across the West Link and you get your crap kicked in, that doesn’t fall under the legislation?

    Is there a possibility that if they found otherwise, certain groups might find themselves on a sticky wicket?

  • andnowwhat

    I meant to add (pity we can’t edit on here), even the BNP had to change it’s rules to (in theory) allow ethnic “minorities”.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Oh deary,deary me. I see the Usual Suspects are out in force for the Daily Mope.

    Just wait till I tell ye. The day mooch points his lens at some nat/rep sectarian graffiti,is the day he loses his wee fan club above !! So it is,so it is !! ;-)

  • michael-mcivor

    The sectearian nazi’s artwork as went down-hill since they lost their grants- graffiti Artist’s they aint-

  • between the bridges

    what the photo’s say to me is ‘a knob with a spray can did this and someone took a photo of it’…in all ‘likely hood’ it was some 13 year old kid who will grow out of it and progress to better things like the KKK…

  • Mainland Ulsterman

    It would interesting to ask, what is the status of this piece of spray art within the community where it sits? My guess would be ignored, dismissed or rejected by the vast majority. The more telling – and worrying – “street art” is the stuff that the community buys into. And here the glorification of sectarian thugs is equally bad on both sides, though in different ways – the Loyalist ones with naked brutality; the Republican ones with their presentation of hardened terrorist killers as some kind of cross between Cat Stevens and Father Dougal.

  • http://www.e-consultation.org/ davenewman

    Why should photographers show any balance? They take photos where they happen to be. MP takes ones near where he lives. Around the areas we live, there are almost no republican slogans painted up (although there was a mural painted for the election campaign in the Short Strand – without an imprint) but lots of ones supporting disloyalist paramilitaries.

    Now if HG wants to take photos in nationalist areas, feel free to do so. Answer photos with photos.

  • JR

    BTB,
    I wish I was that tall when I was 13. Look at the man in the background, it will give you some scale. Whoever sprayed it was fully grown.

  • between the bridges

    JR, you know no more about who sprayed it, than i do, as previous stated imho whoever did this is a knob. as for the tiny wee man he is not actually far away he is a heavy smoker….

  • sonofstrongbow

    As with most of the Loafing Lensman’s ‘work’ I’m inclined to ask: and?

    In a local town there is graffiti reading “Range Rover No”. What does it mean? Is the vehicle in question not welcome? Should I buy my diesel elsewhere? Or perhaps I should not try to extrapolate and realise that, in common with a lot of back alley activities, it has nothing to ‘say’ about the community at large.

    There seems to be a need amongst some ‘artists’ that impels them to communicate to the rest of us that their ‘work’ means something, that it reflects a story outside of the image or whatever. I think it’s a way
    to avoid an appraisal of the work itself.

    In the case of Loafing for example he seems unable to master framing his subject and the result, whatever the viewed object, is a jarring snap that looks much like the product of a finger slip on the shutter release.

  • Neil

    Yeah btb, Moochin’s upsetting depictions of reality aside, do you think it’s syptomatic of some other underlying problems in your community, or is just the odd knob that’s to blame?

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/race.northernireland

    Loyalists blamed as racist attacks on migrants double in Ulster

    http://www.politics.ie/forum/foreign-affairs/166511-anders-breivik-link-johnny-adair.html

    Prominent Loyalist and his links to Nazis and more recently Uncle Anders the Norwegian mass murderer.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jan/10/northernireland.race

    Racist war of the loyalist street gangs

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/northern_ireland/3390249.stm

    Some claim racism is replacing sectarianism in the province’s post-Troubles society, with loyalist paramilitaries blamed for an upsurge of attacks in Belfast.

    But there has been a long history of links between extreme right-wing groups based in England and loyalists in Northern Ireland

    http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland-politician-anna-lo-warns-of-racist-threats-by-loyalist-farright-groups-14371896.html

    Northern Ireland politician Anna Lo warns of racist threats by loyalist far-right groups

    http://www.irr.org.uk/2004/february/ak000008.html

    Legacy of intolerance: racism and Unionism in South Belfast

    That’s not to bother starting to root through web pages hunting for examples of Loyalists kicking or stabbing Catholic (usually school age children) to death. A few examples spring to mind such as McDaid, Michael McIlveen, and the young lad Devine on the Antrim Road. This without even thinking about it, more would occur I’m sure. Hamill is another name that justed popped into my head, see they just keep coming!

    Can you give me either an example of a) a Nationalist attacking and beating to death a Loyalist for no other reason than them being a Protestant or b) Nationalists forcingforeign nationals from their homes because they don;t like brown people?

    So is it just a few knobs in your opinion? If so why are all these knobs on your side of the fence, perhaps that might be worth some examination before you attack the messanger? Or do you accept that your community has a bit of a problem with skin headed, tattooed, thick people and that something should be done?

    I accept that 95% of Unionists are not of the variety I’m talking about, but that 5%, you wanna keep excusing them with straw man arguments and diversionary tactics, cause they really are a problem and need dealing with.

  • between the bridges

    nail, google (your so good at it saves me the bother) the guy taking tea with the Reverend, for his tour of stroke city and interview on nazi.org, do the same for nationalist links with eta, plo, and farc etc. then do cain for the number of people murdered for been protestant. Then check out the irish army reservist on trial for ‘dissent’ attempted murder on a student psni officer…. (which by the way proves that the irish army, government and garda have colluded with irish republicanism since day dot)
    I accept that 95% of nationalist are not of the variety I’m talking about, but that 5%, you wanna keep excusing them with straw man arguments and diversionary tactics, cause they really are a problem and need dealing with…

  • JR

    BTB,
    The collusion issue is not with members of the security forces who were caught and charged but with those who remained in the security forces and used the resources of those organisations to carryout acts of terrorism for many years. There is a big differance.

  • tacapall

    BTB

    “Then check out the irish army reservist on trial for ‘dissent’ attempted murder on a student psni officer…. (which by the way proves that the irish army, government and garda have colluded with irish republicanism since day dot)”

    So do you also believe that the RUC/ RUC Special Branch/ UDR, British Army colluded with loyalism in the murders of Nationalists after all one swallow does not make a summer but you seem to think it does, but there’s plenty of evidence around connecting those I’ve mentioned above with loyalist terrorists.

  • Neil

    BTB,

    it would be interestting if your point was in any way valid. I’m not talking about political violence or intimidation, I’m talking specifically about the ‘civilians’ in your community who have an issue with a) murdering Catholics for being Catholic, and b) intimidating foreign nationals because they don’t like the look of them.

    Feel free to continue excusing that behaviour by trying to draw attention away towards a completely different argument, but it just makes it seem like you agree with these people. Your problem is not with the people who do these things, but with people who document the fact.

  • between the bridges

    JR, thanks for defining the definition of the ‘collusion issue’, can i ask where one gets a copy of the rule book?

  • between the bridges

    ‘Feel free to continue excusing that behaviour by trying to draw attention away towards a completely different argument, but it just makes it seem like you agree with these people. Your problem is not with the people who do these things, but with people who document the fact.’

    nail google irony while your at it.

  • HeinzGuderian

    Dave, panzer boy (HG) has shown he is more interested in pointing the finger than pointing a camera

    Is that the best you can come up with poochy ? ;-)
    Just pointing out your inability to point your lens at anything other than *themmuns*.
    You are fast becoming the laughing stock of Slugger.
    Which takes some doing,boy !! ;-)

  • between the bridges

    Tapcall, once upon a time I would have held the view, that the actions of a few could not be deemed to reflect the majority. But due to the re-indoctrinating education I have received from posters on slugger i now realize that in fact the actions of a few ,do in fact mean that all ‘themuns are the same’. however I am still somewhat baffled by the fact that the logic is only to be applied one way, perhaps you can enlighten me on this?
    You could also consider that ‘who carried the UJ at the boyne’ was not as clever as what one would have hoped it to be, perhaps a more subtle approach is required when fishing, is it not?

  • Neil

    From Framer’s post on (Loyalist) racism in NI

    Intriguing precedent set here as NIHRC is for the first time concerning itself with “Violence by non-state actors.” This is in its 34-page report to the UN about racial discrimination in Northern Ireland.

    The actors concerned are of course Loyalists. However this could presage a whole new area of activity for NIHRC, especially if the Commission also turn its attention to non-state Republican actors, assuming they can be racist.

    “ARTICLE 5(B): Violence by non-state actors

    The 2010 Criminal Justice Inspection report into hate crimes highlighted a number of recent ‘critical incidents’ in Northern Ireland: In the past 12 months there have been three critical incidents which projected a negative image of Northern Ireland on a world stage. They were: the intimidation of Polish and Eastern European residents in the ‘Village’ area of South Belfast following the behaviour of football supporters attending the Northern Ireland v Poland football match in Belfast; a sectarian murder in Coleraine; and the intimidation of Roma families in South Belfast and the exodus of some 100 Roma back to Romania.

    The Commission has commented that within the draft CSI strategy to combat racism and sectarianism there are no proposals for more proactive measures to monitor and address the existence and ideology of groups behind many such attacks, and other sectarian and racist intimidation. There is also the context of the involvement of illegal paramilitary groups, with evidence having emerged that orchestrated racist attacks have involved elements of Loyalist paramilitarism (Loyalist refers to loyalty to the British Crown). It is a matter of concern that this context is only intermittently referred to in official policy and strategy. The matter was referenced in statements by the Independent Monitoring Commission (IMC) set up by the British and Irish governments to monitor paramilitary ceasefires “with a view to promoting the transition to a peaceful society and stable and inclusive devolved government in Northern Ireland”.110 In this context, in a report published by the UK Parliament, the IMC stated that an “important step would be for loyalist paramilitaries, including the UDA, to stop targeting (Irish) nationalists and members of ethnic minorities”.

    The Committee may wish to ask the UK about specific steps taken to combat Loyalist paramilitary involvement in hate crimes.”

    My response:

    Don’t worry Between the Bridges will be along to obfuscate, draw up straw men and attempt to derail the discussion, because the Loyalists aren’t to blame, the people observing the Loyalists are the real one’s at fault. If they didn’t report on it, there would be no problem ergo it’s not the fault of the violent criminal scumbags who do this, it’s more the fault of the media?

    He’ll then underline the strength of his argument by calling people some variation of their handle, the way he ingeniously change the ‘e’ to an ‘a’ in Neil to make, wait for it, Nail!! Hilarious, and smart, the guy has all the answers.

    But whatabout the IRA he’ll say, they killed lots of people.

    Yes, BTB they did, but we’re talking about the crimes being committed by people now, not the crimes that groups stopped committing ten years ago. Do you support Loyalist racism and do you respect Loyalist’s tendencies towards murdering civilians for no reason other than sectarianism? Or do you condemn it?

    Or do you just make bad jokes and try to derail the actual topic?

    Have you anything to say about Loyalist racism and murderous sectarianism? Or can you leap from the closet of hate and admit you support both racist pogroms and murderous violent attacks on Catholics for sectarian reason? Just curious.

  • between the bridges

    neil, get a chip for the other shoulder it might give you some balance…re ‘but we’re talking about the crimes being committed by people now, not the crimes that groups stopped committing ten years ago.’ where is this bubble you live in?

  • tacapall

    BTB

    “But due to the re-indoctrinating education I have received from posters on slugger i now realize that in fact the actions of a few ,do in fact mean that all ‘themuns are the same’. however I am still somewhat baffled by the fact that the logic is only to be applied one way, perhaps you can enlighten me on this”

    Perhaps you can enlighten everyone else to where your evidence is regarding collusion between the IRA and the Garda, Irish Army, Irish Government , one enquiry which has not came to a conclusion yet therefore still no evidence but I could post you plenty of links to various enquiries of collusion between the RUC/ RUC special branch, UDR and British Army but of course you’ll not comment on that and act the Unionist/Loyalist game of “turning a blind eye” whenever you have evidence maybe the same logic will apply.

    As to the who carried the flag remark, well you didn’t answer it so I’ll assume your like the majority of your community – You dont know.

  • Neil

    neil, get a chip for the other shoulder it might give you some balance…re ‘but we’re talking about the crimes being committed by people now, not the crimes that groups stopped committing ten years ago.’ where is this bubble you live in?

    Thanks BTB I’ll take that response as tacit approval for the racist pogroms and sectarian murders committed by your lot of late.

  • between the bridges

    tapcall, you still haven’t enlightened me to why this logic only works one way? It really is terribly confusing! can i presume your logic extends to the ira collusion with security forces?
    Re the fleg you didn’t answer my question re who carried the tricolor at the boyne, so again using your own logic and I quote…‘I’ll assume your like the majority of your community – You dont know.’

  • between the bridges

    neil, you do that old chap, i on the other hand will leave it to the rest on here to read what was said about the original topic… i.e. graffiti on a wall. (which i said imho was done by a knob), and your rants and they can decide which one of us has his head stuck up his rear end…

  • tacapall

    “tapcall, you still haven’t enlightened me to why this logic only works one way? It really is terribly confusing! can i presume your logic extends to the ira collusion with security forces”

    Maybe you didn’t read my post at 5.11 or something so I’ll say it again “wheres your evidence” and yes my logic does extend to RUC special branch/ British intelligence colluding with the IRA ever heard of Freddie Scappaticci he’s said to have been involved in up to 40 murders, he was also a RUC special branch agent I could go on and give you more examples of that but no point in talking to an ostrich who just sticks his head in the sand whenever he’s asked simple questions.

  • between the bridges

    Tapcall… evidence? pray do tell what this strange word means? As for moi, i was only pointing out how difficult it is to turn around my newly found logic (few reflecting the majority etc).
    i.e. Irish army reservist is in the ira so all the Irish army has to be in the ira….sounds somewhat ridiculous logic to me but, what’s good for the goose and all that! however as if by magic you were to reverse the logic to the ‘other side’ it becomes fact…

  • tacapall

    Strange logic but no point in going round in circles you obviously have tunnel vision however I will agree with you that in all likelyhood the graffiti which the post is about was done by a knob and the whole protestant community cannot be tarred by the same brush for the actions of a minority.

  • between the bridges

    Tapcall… circles are good they have continuity, rather than a start and an ending.
    as for my logic, actually it’s simple enough… everything works both ways, and the stranger than fiction, is (usually) somewhere in the middle.

  • tacapall

    BTB like I said strange logic, “circles have continuity rather than a start and an ending, and everything works both ways” Been round a few corners and streetwise you have, but not an Einstein. Everything isn’t black and white and I agree there’s grey area in the middle, that’s where everyone should be but unfortunately there’s knobs around who write crap like the post is about and others who don’t speak out when they should, like yourself.

  • wee buns

    That this ‘beauty’ is the work of one bigoted individual not to be taken seriously – an apolitical view with which I could not disagree more. The study of sectarianism is an under developed field precisely because it is laden with political implications that nobody wants to undertake; explains why the British have adhered to a NON definition of sectarianism. Any analysis of it must be located in the colonial history of Ireland, as this piece of graffiti so bluntly reminds us! The state has done nothing to address the sectarian apparatus of the GFA given that the raison d’être of NI is to perpetuate Protestant supremacy through formal democracy. Expect more of the same.

    Pathetic that the photographer in this instance is subject to bullying remarks on this thread. He is not responsible for the graffiti. If instead energy was spent in consideration of the subject, who knows, the bully boys here might utter something of actual relevance. Then again pigs might fly.

  • between the bridges

    tapcall…’’that’s where everyone should be but unfortunately there’s knobs around who write crap like the post is about and others who don’t speak out when they should, like yourself.’’
    Old chap as my very first post on this topic was to say the graffiti artist was a knob, i fail to see the sense in your ’strange logic’? You calling the artist a ‘knob’ is satisfactory but when i call the artist a ‘knob’ i am failing in common decency and lacking in moral fiber by not condemning this monstrous attack on a de-fenceless wall…