Presbyterian minister welcomed with a cup of tea at dissident protest camp at Free Derry Corner
Presbyterian ministers can’t seem to keep out of the news this week. Suzanne Breen reports in the Sunday World that Rev David Latimer (minister of the recently refurbished First Derry congregation, and a Territorial Army chaplain) made an unannounced visit to a dissident republican protest camp at Free Derry Corner over the weekend.
In a ground-breaking step, the Rev David Latimer visited dissidents holding a 48-hour camp-out in the Bogside in support of republican prisoners in Maghaberry. The Presbyterian minister, who has served as a British Army chaplain, had a “very positive and friendly conversation” with leading Derry republican Gary Donnelly.
Latimer said the horrific scenes he’d witnessed with the army in war-torn Afghanistan meant he was determined to work for peace and reconciliation at home. “Some people will call me a traitor for talking to dissident republicans,” the clergyman told Sunday World. “But no community and no group in this city should be ignored.”
“We may have different political viewpoints but we are all human and we are all equal. I treated the republicans I met with respect and I was well received. God rejects no-one and, as a Christian minister, neither do I.”
He got a warm welcome …
“They offered me a cup of tea and then a coat to keep me warm. It was a kind gesture. They couldn’t have been more courteous. It was a chance for me to talk and listen to them. We must grasp every opportunity to understand each other if we’re to learn to live in harmony. We all want peace and fairness in our country. For too long, there was prejudice, suspicion and injustice.”
Senior dissident republic Gary Donnelly of the 32 County Sovereignty Movement – which Breen says “security sources claim is the Real IRA’s political wing” – spoke positively about the visit.
“It was a welcome surprise that a Protestant minister visited our camp especially when Catholic clergy didn’t bother to turn up. I’d a very positive and friendly conversation with David Latimer. I told him my grandmother was a Protestant. And the minister wasn’t the only Protestant at Free Derry Corner that day – one of our members from Sligo who was taking part in the protest is a Protestant.”
With the Presbyterian General Assembly decamping from its Belfast headquarters and heading up to the north west for the first week in June 2013, it wouldn’t be a big surprise if there was a moderator from Derry and Donegal Presbytery to go along with the new venue, particularly one who can speak confidently about difficult issues:
… he insisted his actions were in keeping with his religious beliefs: “In his day, Christ turned the status quo on its head. He did what wasn’t the norm. He talked to people others ignored. It’s the right thing to do.”
All in all, with this story as well as one about the two Sinn Fein representatives jetting off to New York (to promote a sporting event that their party won’t help organise in Belfast), it was been a good weekend of reporting from Suzanne Breen in the Sunday World.
Topic: Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Ireland, Northern Ireland
Nun, I’m not going to waste the effort of arguing the existence of God or what religion means to you personally. I’m merely making the point that a Christian minister has obligations to fulfill by virtue of his faith and position. How you or I feel about it is rather irrelevant.
Kev, I’m not arguing about feelings and yours are of no interest to me.
There are any number of interpretations of christianity which would very directly contradict your perspective on the appropriateness of Latimer’s choice of action – in specifically christian terms – just as there would with those in direct alignment with his choice. That’s my point.
The “any number of interpretations” are irrelevant. The only relevance Christianity has here is that Rev. Latimer is a minister who saw his duty as going to talk to those people. He then went about doing what he thought was right. Are you saying that he had no right to follow his conscience?
Turgon
While I appreciate your considered and thoughtful response, it simply confirms my argument.
You have presented no evidence that Mr Latimer is not “attending to the needs of those shot and beaten up by the thugs these people represent.”
You argue that Latimer did this for publicity, yet the visit was unannounced.
You have stated that you are opposed to doing good.
You have argued that talking to those who are evil or are violent legitimises their actions – yet you have no idea what they talked about, nor said how their actions are legitimised by conversation.
You have also said groups with little support shouldn’t be taken seriously, yet the state takes them very seriously. If a threat is ignored, does it go away? Is refusing to challenge an idea a sign or strength or cowardice?
I can understand your position, but it appears hypocritical and is clearly opposed to the god whose teachings you claim to follow.
How can someone claim to be a Christian while actively trying to subvert the word of God? It makes no sense, even in the illogical world of religion or faith.
Kevsterino
He has a right to do whatever he likes within the law, I honestly can’t say that I give a damn either way or can’t possiby see what difference it makes who he speaks to. Saying that his choice represents the christian message though or that his choice was his christian duty as opposed to those who will say that his choice is profoundly unchristian or anti-christian rather makes my point for me. It’s all bullshit and I object to the state’s agreement to the payment of salaries for military chaplains.
Nunoftheabove: It’s all bullshit and I object to the state’s agreement to the payment of salaries for military chaplains.
I suspect they act as very cheap psychologists and are well worth the cost in utilitarian terms. I am not sufficiently stiff necked to object to their presence simply on the grounds that I don’t share their beliefs.
Reader I think your wasting your time in discussing the matter with nun ,who has already stated he`s not that bothered if the rev in question talks to anyone or not.
Nun is more interested in the fact that the rev is connected to the T.A no more or no less. Quite obviously anything that resembles anything to do with the U.K offends and angers him/her , leaving me the opinion that the only objective is to stir the shit and promote division and ill feeling in our country.
Belfast Gonzo,
A brief internet search will demonstrate Latimer’s interest in publicity. He gave an interview to the Derry Journal when he was going to Afghanistan. When his church was reopened he managed to get the singing priests and assorted senior CoI and Catholic clerics to come. These are the actions of a self publicist especially the former.
As to refusing to talk to vioent thugs being unChristian. Latimer could have talked to them away from their camp had he wanted to: that would have avoided giving them publicity or credibility. As I said above, talking to BNP or KKK members is appropriate but not when they are having a BNP meeting or a cross burning session.
Furthermore Jesus himself denounced assorted people in the strongest possible terms and at times refused to speak to people.
There is a right time and a right place for most things: there is a right time and a right place for talking to practically anyone. Going to see the 32 CSM when they are in the process of their camp gives them a degree of legiotimacy and credibility. Giving credibility to a group which supports violent thuggery against the poorest people in Londonderry is extremely foolish and not especialy godly.
As an aside I have never questioned anyone’s claims to their religious beliefs; I have never said any contributor to this site was unChristian in their views or actions; I would be pleased if the same courtesy could be extended to me.
I am glad that David Latimer in now looking peace- but mr Latimer must also oppose those he served with whilst he was in Iraq and those still in the occupation of afganistan- a person must look peace world-wide- not just in his home turf- talk to the brit army David- try and get them to go down the peace road-
I find it slightly comical that so-called dissidents should be so keen to get a story in the papers that depicts the enemy as a rather nice chap who drops by for a cup of tea and a chat.
It begs the self-defeating question as to whether or not there are any suitable dehumanizing stories available for promotion that could depict the British army in a less favourable light.
But given that the so-called dissident was keen to emphasise that they got on rather spiffingly with Protestants (even having one as a member), it would appear that such dubious propaganda value (“we’re a non-sectarian murder gang, don’t you know”) made them overlook the own goal…
@ reader,
‘I suspect they act as very cheap psychologists and are well worth the cost in utilitarian terms.’
Indeed . The RC confessional has oft been described as the poor man’s psychologist/psychotherapist and may be the reason for Sigmund Freud’s remark that the Irish were the only people on earth who would not respond psychotherapy;)
‘A brief internet search will demonstrate Latimer’s interest in publicity.’
So what ? Was’nt Christ i.e Rev Latimer’s role model a self publicist . Did he not throw the pharisees from the temple ? Did he not get himself crucified for his beliefs .Did he not ‘recruit ‘ apostles to expand his ‘faith ‘ ? Did he not perform crowd pulling miracles .
It would of course be a ‘miracle ‘ if the Rev Latimer’s ‘cup of tea’ led to a situation whereby the ‘dissidents’ and other assorted organisations finally accept that ‘inefficient’ though it may be ‘politics’ is the only road by which their particular objective may be attained.
For those who like Turgon who maintain that tea drinking and chatting with the ‘enemy’ will never achieve anything their memories must be very short indeed . It’s not too long ago since the words ‘never ever ‘were used in reference to direct talks with SF- now of course one of the governing parties in the NI power sharing Government .
A wee chat is always fine and dandy but first you have to spend a few hundred million every year for a decade or so infiltrating the anti-state and pro-state groups and, of course, you have to have a world-class intelligence agency with hundreds of trained opperatives in place that is capable of managing all of that that and all of the political and media management strategies that come with it.
The narrative is that Mr Hume had a wee chat with Mr Adams and convinced him of the futility of it all, and then Mr Adams had a wee chat with the boyos in PIRA and did likewise. Then, when they had all come to their senses, it was time to have a wee chat with the other tribe.
The reality is a tad more complex…
@Alias,
‘The reality is a tad more complex…’
Not as complex as the political result – which works for now which is all that matters for most people in NI and the Republic bar the few ‘absolutists’ on both sides who are still hung up on their political or denominational petards.
Turgon, is it possible that you just don’t like this guy? The way you characterise him as a publicity seeker because he, wait for it, invited CoI and Catholics to his church when it reopened. C’mon man, church leaders are always trying to get people to come to their church. That doesn’t make him odd. What makes him stand out is he appears to be actively involved in outreach to others in the community. That itself might not sit well with some folks.
cookie
Let Reader make his own mind up about that – it’s not your place to butt in.
I object to the public purse being used to fund religious interests, influences and involvements within the public square, be they in schools, hospitals or in the army – it ought not to be the role of the state to do so and I care not a jot whether Latimer is saved, Apostolic Presbyterian, Jesuit, Zoroastrian, Orthodox Jew or Mormon – the principle’s the same. What’s also the same is the futility of arguing whether his choice to speak to Mr Donnelly and his mates is ‘christian’ or un- or anti-christian – arguing that to and fro only goes to highlight what we already know – christianity is silly and occasionally dangerous bullshit.
As to your remark that “anything that resembles anything to do with the U.K offends and angers [me]“, this is straightforwardly untrue. I like a good many things about it and dislike a good number of others. Like most normal people do.
Kevsterino,
You will note that my complaint about attention seeking was mainly about his speaking to the Derry Journal prior to going to Afghanistan. The episode over his church was also notable especially for getting the singing preists who are minor celebrities (as well as priests) to take part in the service for the re-opening of the church. I have been to may church openings and the like and have never seen the use of “celebs” to try to get attention: it is not really what a church is about.
To be totally candid, Turgon, I would be interested in hearing what a minister on his way to Afghanistan had to say before he left. Then I would hope they would follow up upon his return if he was fortunate enough to get back. Again it doesn’t strike me as offensive, but you’re entitled to be put-off by it I suppose. Was it the fact that it was the Derry Journal or would you have been equally offended had the interview been a Newsletter piece?
Kevsterino,
It is the publicity seeking I find somewhat objectionable. You claimed he did not do this and I have illustrated that he did. You have also claimed that what he did was specifically his Christian duty: whilst that is your view and you are entitled to it; I have provided a set of reasons why in my view he should not have done this.
Very well, then. I suppose, in your view, he proved his shallow self serving motivations by inviting anyone from the C of I or Roman Catholic clergy (especially those singing priests) to the reopening of his church and speaking to those nasty 32 SC oppressors at their camp. If this does not reflect a clear understanding of your view, please correct me.
nun Maybe a previous post by yourself was just bravado when you hinted you may not pay in to the public purse as you should , or only when you wish to do so.If that is the case i apologise , but if you dont contribute the way you should i feel its unfair you have a say in how its spent.
cookie
Hardly bravado my dear chap, mere frivolity. I kick in my share and wouldn’t have le cou de laiton to complain about how the contributions of others are wasted (on, say, chaplains) were I not myself in, ahem, virtually full compliance with my solemn obligations as a law-abiding citizen
[...] be Rev David Latimer, minister of First Derry Presbyterian Church. (In a recent post I described his spontaneous visit to the dissident protest camp at Free Derry Corner.) Speaking to the News Letter, he explained: I see this as an opportunity to build friendships [...]