It’s not Jerusalem, its Yerushalayim…
Last Saturday was my annual pilgrimage to the Maiden City to commemorate the Relief of Derry. Personally I have never been one of those Unionists who got overly hung up on the interchangeable use of the words Derry and Londonderry. I’ve been a member of the Apprentice Boys of Derry for 20 years this very month, and for as long as I can remember Saturday has always been ‘Derry Day’ to myself, my family, my friends and basically everyone I know. There are other reasons to justify my personal general lack of annoyance, for example in 1913 the Ulster Volunteer Force in the area had no problem organising its 4 Battalions of over 3000 men under the moniker of the City of Derry Regiment (though incidentally elsewhere in the County it was the North Londonderry Regiment and South Londonderry Regiment).
But then it’s easy for me to not feel emotively affected by the change of a name when I live over 80 miles away! It isn’t my school being renamed for example. For those in the City who feel their family and cultural history is being rewritten, there are a whole different set of emotions.
I noted this morning with interest a very relevant piece in the Middle East section of the BBC news portal on the use of place names as weapons. A piece that bears a striking amount of similarities to the ‘Stroke City’ issue. Yolande Knell opens with a tale of her plane trip to Israel from Dublin, and being asked by a Jewish-Israeli boy where she was going, she answered Jerusalem. She was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn’t Jerusalem, “it’s Yerushalayim.” Yolande’s piece outlines the ongoing political battle being waged over place names in Israel, making the observation that:
the struggle to control the historical narrative is played out most tangibly in language
Yolande explains how there is a major dispute currently ongoing in Israel, where there is a campaign by rightist Jews to ‘Judaise’ ALL place names. In turn, and in a sentiment remarkably similar to one shared by the Maiden City’s Protestant population, Palestinians in turn believe the tactic is simply an attempt to “erase” them.
Palestine activist Huda Iman states in a quote that could be taken from the mouth of many a Fountain resident:
it’s destroying any trust. They’re erasing all traces of Palestinian identity.”
Just substitute Palestinian with Protestant or Unionist…
Topic: Government, Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Global, Ireland, Northern Ireland
Cuan, names grow far beyond their original meaning, there is no Oak Grove at Derry, just as the castle is long gone from Newcastle, the names have a life of their own created over centuries, if it was so important to understand the meaning of a place name instantly we would be talking about, Oakgrove, or Sandyrivermouth, or Owensland, or Islandcathleen, so that everyone and not just Gaelic speakers would understand, but the meaning is not that important in all but a few.
The new Irish names are not the originals, they are modern version of the best interpretation, to finish lets go to the largest city in NI, is Belfast “Béal Feirste – Rivermouth of the Sandbars, or is it the Rivermouth of the Farset? we can never know for sure.
DR
Yes, current placenames in Gaelic are written in the contemporary version of Irish but it’s still the same language as that which has been spoken here for over a millennium and a half. It’s a natural progression, the bastardised versions are obviously not.
Béal Feirste is Béal Feirste, we don’t translate it in our minds to English everytime we say it.
The gist of your posts is that anglicised placenames (i presume you would also include surnames etc.) are more valid than their Gaelic versions, which is certainly not the case.
The bastardised names are in common usage in English, the older Irish names from which the anglicised names derive are used everyday by Gaelic speakers, so equal status and importance should be promoted.
Over the wall, al Quds sounds entlrely different doesn’t it?
RG Cuan: The gist of your posts is that anglicised placenames (i presume you would also include surnames etc.) are more valid than their Gaelic versions, which is certainly not the case.
Have you guys even settled on a definition of “valid”? Along with 50,000 other people, I live in Bangor. How many people live in Beannchar?
“furthermore, King James II said in in the 1662 charter:”
????????
Charles II reigned a tad longer than Two years,if I’m not very much mistaken !!
I have read this argument a Thousand times. I grow weary of it.
Cuan, having alternative names is divisive, in some cases if there genuinely is an overwhelming Gealic speaking population, and few if any minorities to feel excluded then it would be better to change the name completely, but dual name just causes further un-necessary division, as the above discussion proves.
“Stroke City” – If we continue down this path, the city will soon become associated with serious health problems.
I say the people to blame for this state of affairs is the Romans. Now it was they who founded the city of Londonium. Worse still, they took a decision not to invade Ireland, thus creating a cultural divide which affects Northern Ireland today.
But the GAA could make a contribution towards solving this problem.
At the moment, London is affiliated to the Connaught provincial GAA. If they switched London into the Ulster GAA, we would frequently have matches between London and Derry. People would say “I’m going to the London-Derry match” and they would then get used to the name “Londonderry” and eventually accept it.
is London not an old pre Roman Celtic name? no-one really knows, as for the Romans coming to Ireland, I have a theory that Ireland is more divided by the Saxon/Germanic Versus Celtic/Romasque ethnic divide that runs right across Europe, but the discussion for another day.
HeinzGuderian
“Charles II reigned a tad longer than Two years”
On 10 April 1662 King Charles II granted a further Charter… “we will, ordain, constitute, confirm, and declare that the said city or town of Derry, for ever hereafter be, and shall be named and called the City of Londonderry…..”
DR
“Having alternative names is divisive”.
All over the world places have different names in different languages, and it doesn’t cause that much trouble in bilingual areas of Germany, Switzerland, Italy, the Basque Country etc…
Usage of bilingual placenames only affronts those who are threatened by cultural diversity and linguistic equality.
READER
“I live in Bangor. How many people live in Beannchar?”
Of course you live in Bangor, it’s just that some people call it Beannchar.
Mike the First, This anomaly of Derry being used by Protestant associations,was pointed out to Gregory Campbell in the local version of Question Time a couple of seasons ago, and his ‘explanation’ was greeted by the audience with laughter. The truth is, from my reading of local press in the newspaper library in Belfast, that unionists politicians only began insisting neurotically on the prefix after they lost control of the council, [in 1973, I believe]. They weren’t fixated on it before then. So they really had it in for Chris Patten for letting the council change it, [after Patten did away with ‘their police force’ as Robbo put it.
The city has been Doire for as long as time remembers, and to call it anything else is just daft. Insisting that the name can only be changed by Royal Charter, as Judge Weir established in Belfast, is however, legally correct and it will remain uncahnged untill the populous as a majority in the provence decide otherwise. The vast proportion of moderate ordinary joes of both sides call it Derry. The rest use it as a stick to remind the majority irish residents that they are rulled by London to a great degree. As such I should expect that in another 500 years, when these issues have been left by the wayside, that the ancient name, in some futuristic tounge, will return.