GAA lacks sincerity…
The GAA and its members/ proponents (not always the same thing) on a regular basis continue to supply the air waves (and internet waves of course) with endless claims and assertions of how inclusive it is, with particular emphasis on how welcome the Unionist community is within the ranks. Recent events have however reinvigorated the Unionist assessment that the claims are simply a clever cloak. Put bluntly Unionism simply believes much of the murky truth is hidden by maximising ‘spin’ and semantics for the benefit of the media (and more importantly grant awarding bodies).
The factual reality’s to back this belief up are undisputable. It would be a very disingenuous Pomeroy GAA member for example who would currently seriously expect anyone to believe that his Unionist neighbours are welcome in the aforementioned ‘ranks’, and shouldn’t have any concerns about membership.
It has also been suggested recently that Unionists ‘exclude’ themselves from membership. Well another ‘factual reality’ is that you cannot be a member of the GAA and be a Unionist. Existing as a Unionist would simply not be adhering to the Associations ‘ethos‘.
The organisation is NOT simply a sporting one, never has been and never will be. GAA President stated it quite succinctly in his speech at the recent visit of the Queen. The GAA is not about Sport. Sport is only an element. The GAA embodies the:-
The thing is it is a 32 County mood. A mood where Ireland does not control ‘all the national territory’. A mood centred on solely native ‘pastimes’, ‘language’, ‘music’ and ‘dance’. A political mood where Ireland must ‘govern her own affairs’.
Well you know what, the GAA and its members are totally allowed to believe and practise what they want within the limits of the law. No problem. However if there was more sincerity and truth, and less hypocrisy in its ranks maybe there would be a lot less ambivalence towards it by Northern Irelands majority community.
Update: Shane O’Neill’s GAA Camlough to host’ terror fest’ this weekend
Quincey,
Your threads are not only becoming way too frequent but also very, very boring…
It’s basically the same essential theme re-hashed to death…
“However if there was more sincerity and truth, and less hypocrisy in its ranks maybe there would be a lot less ambivalence towards it [the GAA] by Northern Irelands majority community”.
But not, we are beginning to suspect, by at least one member of that community regardless . What, Quincey ?
Keano, as I said last week, this guy belongs on P.U.L.S.E. rather than Slugger.
Unlike other unionists on here, his come right from the arsehole of loyalism
Anyone find a ball to kick, kick it; otherwise can you forever hold your man playing peace?
I’m confused, do unionists not play tug-of-war or is it the name of the person?
If it’s the name, surely this has been discussed a thousand times already?
Then It’s just another version of the never-ending flags/anthems/cultural symbols/dead we remember debate and really not worth the bother.
Quincey,
The names of the teams are a little difficult to see but I can manage to make them out.
Tug of war is not really a unionist or nationalist activity so presumably if the competition is welcoming of all (like the GAA so clearly is?????) then some teams from unionist areas would be queuing up to take part. Richhill is famous for having a good tug of war team: strangely I cannot see it being their despite the obvious cross cumminity credentials of a tug of war competition. Funny that.
Incidentally I said it before but ignore the man playing attacks: actually do not ignore them; take pride in them.
Turgon the ‘Tug of War’ is simply a poster of the same event in aid of the PIRA Volunteer last year. Whether the sport is tug of war or tiddley winks is irrelevant. Its a small graphic beside the piece- its not the focus.
I take the personal attacks as simply a sign of inability to refute the points made.
Bottom line- the GAA claim to be inclusive. It isnt. The GAA and its members/ supporters need to start treating us big bad ‘Unionists’ with some sense of integrity, honesty and respect. Then maybe we can share space, share sports and share the island.
…being there not their obviously. I am struggling with my new spell checker. That said it would not have helped: illiteracy is clearly beckoning.
Quincey:
“Well another ‘factual reality’ is that you cannot be a member of the GAA and be a Unionist.”
Simply untrue. The rules do not prevent Unionists from joining whatsoever.
Hardline Unionists may have trouble with the rules, considering the 32-county aspect, flags etc but those who are more centre or liberal wouldn’t mind all that stuff, it doesn’t compromise their or NI’s Britishness one bit.
Quincey,
I know that: you know that but strangely some of our friends on slugger regard the GAA as so inclusive.
Actually the only bit I disagree with you on is the sharing sports. If they do not want to share gaelic games I am supremely indifferent: they should just admit it is an Irish sport for people who self define as Irish and stop pretending that they want to be inclusive.
It is not wrong as you so correctly say “the GAA and its members are totally allowed to believe and practise what they want within the limits of the law.” What they need to be is honest that it is an Irish organisation for Irish people and although they do not seem to be inclined to ban British people they make no attempt to be especially welcoming: fair enough; honesty about what they are and what they are about is what is needed.
Quincey, would the GAA be more or less inclusive if it were to exclude Republicans???
“Existing as a Unionist would simply not be adhering to the Associations ‘ethos‘.”
Can you substantiate this assertion? I would like to see you attempt to do so.
“The factual reality’s to back this belief up are undisputable.”
Dawn Purvis was right.
I’ll say one thing for your frequently regurgitated thread topic Quincey, the per impression advert revenue for slugger is enjoying a golden age, not too sure about anyone actually learning anything about the ‘other side’ though.
There are outreach teams working within NI that promote GAA sports in state (commonly called protestant) schools including in E Belfast.
There are also (for my sins, I saw it on The One Show some time ago) a scheme in GB schools as well as teams playing.
The PSNI team, we all know about.
Just a quick anecdote; back in the early to mid 70′s I recall a protestant fellow who played for St Enda’s GAA Glengormley with my brother.
I hope the purpose of this post is positive criticism so what would make the GAA acceptable to you Quincey Dougan?
Please list clearly what has to go.
I assume it’s the removal of the Irish language requirements, taking down of the Irish tricolour over the grounds, cessation of the playing of the Irish national anthem before matches, the renaming of all clubs, stadiums, competitions, trophies etc to your satisfaction.
When all that is done, you’ll be down to your local club with your Azzurri jersey and shorts on, or will the rule on Irish made products also have to go?
Have I missed something?
What do you want the Gaelic Athletic Association to mean to you in your life?
The GAA is as the name suggest a Gaelic cultural association of which sport is the major part.
It is an Irish national orgainisation organised on a 32 county basis.
It is highly unlikely that such an organisation could ever be made acceptable to unionists as in general they oppose all manifestations of Gaelic cultural and do not believe in an Irish nation.
It is strange even to imagine what a unionist acceptable GAA would be other than ceasing to exist.
Well, there are plenty of Protestants who speak Gaelic in Scotland, so a Gaelic cultural association need not be Irish or Republican: it could be Scottish and have the ethos of the Wee Frees.
‘The GAA and its members/ supporters need to start treating us big bad ‘Unionists’ with some sense of integrity, honesty and respect. Then maybe we can share space, share sports and share the island.’
Quincey
Hmm, I’d be interested to know what role your beloved Loyal Orders and marching bands could play in helping create that noble vision?
Quincey
What precisely is “murky” about twhat truth here ? You quote directly from the GAA’s articles of association and/or constitution which is publicly and freely available. It’s precisely those parts which the unionist/s you’re talking about have a problem with, it seems to me. There’s no murkiness about it that you have yet identified or that’s obvious to me. It’s an inclusive organization to the extent that anyone of any religion, colour etc who wishes to join it can do; it goes without saying that only those who to some degree feel comfortable with its very widely known and straightforward ethos would wish to. Leastways, it would be self-evident to anyone of average intelligence and common-sense that this was the case.
I’ll take anything more you have to say on the matter half-seriously as and when I read something from you that approximates to the deployment of whatever critical faculties you may possess in the general direction of the pluralist credentials of some the Unionists you’re fond of referencing to a noticeably liberal extent.
Eddie : “….It is an Irish national organization organized on a 32 county basis…..”
The GAA is organized not only on a Thirty-Two county National basis but also in an International basis in countries and cities where there is sufficient interest to establish clubs. It is also organized on regional basis as in South East Asia, The USA, Canada and of course the UK etc. It is a far bigger organization with a far bigger reach than the Thirty-Two counties.
The English example is interesting as there are second and third generation integrated Irish playing and for them there is no conflict in regarding the UK National soccer team as ‘their team’ or dare one say it, the Uk National flag and anthem as ‘theirs’
Obstacles to Unionists? Many prominent members of the founding fathers were Protestant and they did not deliberately set up a system that would alienate their co-religionists and that is not the GAA ethos. For whatever it is worth, I am not a member of the GAA, I take an interest in my local parish team, the Barony and the County and that is about it, except for The Semi Finals and the All Ireland Day
It is not that I do not have a keener interest on the game at National level, it is just that I got bored with seeing the Ulster Teams and some Six county ones in particular getting continually trounced by Southern Counties. Not a very edifying sight, not a very edifying sight at all !
However if there was more sincerity and truth, and less hypocrisy in its ranks maybe there would be a lot less ambivalence towards it by Northern Irelands majority community.
Quincey
Given that you as author of said quotation have recently provided much entertainment on Slugger attempting to sanitise the behaviour of loyalist bands, this line of criticism will cause many to bellow loudly!
But you are right in one sense.
The GAA is a sporting organisation with historic links to nationalist politics owing to the anti-imperialist campaign across the 32 counties to rid the British forces from Ireland.
Partition meant that such sentiment remained stronger in the north to this day.
So it is entirely proper to ascribe a nationalist identity to the GAA at an organisational level, much in the same way that it is entirely proper to identify the Northern Ireland football team as providing a key aspect to the unionist identity in the North.
The GAA fraternity have made good efforts to broaden the appeal of the games and the fact that the political undertones are a side issue will help them in that regard as time passes (much to the chagrin of some….)
It also helps that the GAA does not seek to force its cultural and political identity on others- a lesson you could take to organisations somewhat closer to your heart.
There are naive people who believe that sport and politics shouldn’t mix.
Alas, twas ever thus.
btw The Pomeroy competition differs in no way to the decision by soccer authorities in England and Scotland to compel football players to wear poppies to commemorate Britain’s war dead in November, apart from the fact that the latter had a compulsory element.
Republican deflection really does become tiresome. GAA in many cases is merely the IRA at play.
GAA lacks sincerity …… Quincey
All due etc , I think you’re way off the mark on this one . Again maybe in Dublin we don’t get the real nitty gritty local stuff . After reading Slugger over the last month , I’m genuinely surprised at the reaction of some from the PUL community .
Jimmy Keavney was a good friend of my Father and after the games in the seventys , we’d meet the team in the Crane ? bar in Fairview . I was only a kid but these memories are like gold to me . The Dublin Team would come to BlackrockCollege to show off Sam and take photos etc . The priests loved the gaa and all the attention it brings . The GAA needs Dublin just like Dublin need the GAA .
Look a protestant from Glengormley, as recently as the 1970s, may have participated in a “sport” organised by the GAA. And Unionists complain about outreach? What more do they want?
“I hope the purpose of this post is positive criticism so what would make the GAA acceptable to you Quincey Dougan?
Please list clearly what has to go.
I assume it’s the removal of the Irish language requirements, taking down of the Irish tricolour over the grounds, cessation of the playing of the Irish national anthem before matches, the renaming of all clubs, stadiums, competitions, trophies etc to your satisfaction.
When all that is done, you’ll be down to your local club with your Azzurri jersey and shorts on, or will the rule on Irish made products also have to go?
Have I missed something?”
_
Don’t forget to remove the “G” from “GAA”, as the “Gaelic” element clearly excludes Ulster Protestants.
I am unionist by political persuasion and play gaelic football competitively. I had wanted to join for a long time but felt too hypocritical because the stated aspirations of the GAA on a political level do not sit with my own political view.
In the end I decided to play and just try to ignore the political stuff. I have to say the type of events that Quincey alludes to make me feel very uncomfortable indeed. My team have never given me any indication that they would advocate those events being tolerated at my club. If they did I would leave immediately, just as I would leave any club I was part of that had anything to do with commemorating a loyalist terrorist. I just could not stand to be associated with it.
Some may say being a member of one GAA club while another commemorates terrorists is just as hypocritical of me. I have some sympathy for that view and it is why I do feel slightly uncomfortable. Balanced against that are all the benefits of playing a sport I very much enjoy with a group of lads I like.
It’s time the GAA authorities viewed these events from the outside in, if they are serious about ‘reaching out’.
The ghetto of Republicans which infest Slugger are talking about Unionists never being happy with all-island ethos, but the evidence for this in other sports such as rugby, cricket, hockey etc. is to the contrary.
There is absolutely no need for a Republican politics, Republican flags or Republican sports which claim to be “inclusive” in Northern Ireland. As another commentator pointed out a few months ago, this is especially relevant given that Gaelic Games are almost seen as compulsory for “integrated” schools in Northern Ireland to be involved with.
You’re brave, Skinner. Lest we forget Darren Graham. The young Protestant who was not only forced out of his GAA club in Fermanagh but had to flee the country after attacks on his home by local GAA enthusiasts.
This is a reboot of a thread that passed it’s sell-by date. It’s a bit stale, over-analysed, and frankly, at this stage, boring.
Three weeks ago there was a panel discussion (originally billed as a debate) on the subject that the Orange Order & GAA were bad for “Northern Ireland” (sic).
It was hosted by Young Unionists at Strandtown UUP Hall in East Belfast. A Representative of the GAA attended (and Orange Order) several unionists and nationalists including many members of the SDLP Youth.
The meeting was conducted in a very civilised and cordial way with a lot of mutual respect.
It is possible to do so.
It might be a reasonable assumption that the very fact that a senior GAA figure was actually in a UUP building goes at least some way to disproving the notion that the “GAA lacks sincerity” (which is hyperbole).
BloodThunder
Yes that incident is in the back of my mind but I just hope it was confined to its own context.
Who actually came up with the 32 county boundaries in Ireland? Obviously it was a true Gael. Any idea who?
It couldn’t possibly have been a non-Gael, so what heroic Gaelic Irishman (or Irishwoman) founded these boundaries?
“There is absolutely no need for a Republican politics, Republican flags or Republican sports …” ayeYerMa
Of course not. Themmuns just do it be cantankerous and get up unionist noses. Their very existence is a blight on the dacent, God-fearing, righteous folk and they should all be drummed out of the Wee Six – which is what Blood and Thunder bands were designed to do.
Okay then, instead of trolling about the internet why doesn’t someone like Quincy test the “sincerity” of the GAA by starting their own Carsons CLG and let us see how far it gets?
Ulick
I’ve a better idea.
The Army garrison here form a team (let’s start with Ballykinlar – 2 Rifles-) and see if the GAA will let them join in the local league. Obviously GSTQ and the Union Flag will be allowed, as it’s a ‘non-sectarian’ ‘sport’ right?
What say you?
“Put bluntly Unionism simply believes much of the murky truth is hidden by maximising ‘spin’ and semantics for the benefit of the media (and more importantly grant awarding bodies).”
Who is Unionism and who speaks for it? I know a few unionists who played in the local GAA team and also know more who watched and enjoyed it. Wait!!!!! Are you Unionism????
“The factual reality’s to back this belief up are undisputable. It would be a very disingenuous Pomeroy GAA member for example who would currently seriously expect anyone to believe that his Unionist neighbours are welcome in the aforementioned ‘ranks’, and shouldn’t have any concerns about membership.”
I recall a while back that a small association football club in Newtownstewart allowed its grounds to be used for the Twelfth as the sort of place where all the Orangemen go to have their speeches etc. (is there a name for that). Should I now say that the IFA does not welcome catholics. No, that would be ridiculous. Pomeroy Plunketts aren’t actually running the evenet, never mind the Tyrone County Board. They are just allowing their ground to be used by it.
“It has also been suggested recently that Unionists ‘exclude’ themselves from membership. Well another ‘factual reality’ is that you cannot be a member of the GAA and be a Unionist. Existing as a Unionist would simply not be adhering to the Associations ‘ethos‘.”
This is just factually incorrect. To be a member of the GAA, you need only to the following aims:
- The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes
and also:
(a) The Association shall actively support the Irish
language, traditional Irish dancing, music, song,
and other aspects of Irish culture. It shall foster
an awareness and love of the national ideals in
the people of Ireland, and assist in promoting a
community spirit through its clubs.
(b) The Association shall promote its aims amongst
communities abroad through its overseas units.
(c) The Association shall support the promotion of
Camogie and Ladies Gaelic Football.
(d) The Association shall use all practical endeavours
to support Irish Industry especially in relation to
the provision.
It is a factual reality that you can be a Unionist and quite avidly support all of these aims.
The GAA has within its rules that it is non-party political and anti-sectarian and anti-racist. And it would take action against anyone who breaks those rules (involving a minimum 8 weeks suspension and possibly expulsion)
But then again, you knew that – having linked the guide. You are just trolling anyway. And thats what it is. I know the whole thing about playing the ball. But you must call a spade a spade. And when a blogger is trolling, then the blogger becomes the ball.
I’d expect that wouldn’t be much of a problem in Down nightrider….
But regardless, haven’t you flogged this particular one to death Quincey? You blogged it on your own site 2 years ago and you revisit it this year? For a start, you used the same image of the poster you used 2 years ago – if you were so outraged surely you could have went to the bother of getting a more recent one!
Quincey, I’m starting to see your name mentioned on Slugger more often that the word ‘Slugger’ itself. You mustn’t have much else to do but write endless drivel. Anyway, you claim that being a unionist and a member of the GAA is impossible because it disagrees with the very fabric of unionism. Well I propose that it is impossible to be a nationalist and a supporter of the Northern Ireland soccer team. After all, nationalism is based on the very premise that there is no northern state – instead having one, 32 county state – whereas the NI soccer team are a 6 county team. Does this make the IFA insincere or ‘not a sporting [body]‘ or non-inclusive. Didn’t think so? End of debate.
Also Quincey, I see you dared to enter the ‘Dreaded Republic’ to study at Dundalk IT. Did those nasty Irish people shove spuds down your throat and beat you with a shillelagh?
Skinner, I’m intrigued, you come from a Unionist tradition, yet join an organization that is diametrically opposed to your aims. That is a strange juxtaposition?
I’m sure most of us on here would like to know more Skinner, can you give us more details.
Blood Thunder,
Lest we forget Darren Graham. The young Protestant who was not only forced out of his GAA club in Fermanagh but had to flee the country after attacks on his home by local GAA enthusiasts.
Darren Graham said that he would not play again unless he received an apology and was convinced that the Gaelic Athletic Association was serious about stamping out sectarianism.
As you don’t want to forget him and seem truly concerned, you probably should know that Graham received his apology and is back in the GAA.
come on folks quincey is merely stating how most unionists feel about the gaa thats hard liners middle road and liberals.
This feeling toward the gaa has been set down the years with clubs all over ireland holding republican events glorifying murderous deeds. The republican movement is famous for its ability to make people think black is white and so on and the assumption that clubs are ready and willing to greet unionists to secure funding is spot on, as it is with the schools. The fact that people are having a go at spelling, the picture beside the post and personal attacks on quincey speaks for itself.
Anyone who doubts that IRA glorifying is not rife within the gaa is seriously insane , and anyone who thinks this is acceptable to a unionist should have a reality check asap, but we all know this, even those posting in the gaa defence are well aware of it but they are playing a political game thats just how this country works.
maybe one of the clubs could hold a help the heroes evening as a gesture not only toward unionists but to the many many irish men who live south of the border and serve in the british army to defend our land against attack
does the aa stand for athletic association , are there any more athletics clubs in the world who say that politics are a firm part of their ethos?
Kevin McIlhennon
Not wanting getting involved in this discussion on the GAA, but I wanted to point out that you’ve just thrown a massive red herring into the discussion there. No-one’s talking about whether an association is organised on a NI, ROI or all-Ireland basis.
To be honest I don’t mind how many threads there are on the GAA. I could talk about it all day. It is a subject that I enjoy.
I think the Nationalist ethos of the GAA is a seperate issue to the IRA memorials. To repeat the analogy from another thread it is like the Protestant ethos of the blood and thunder bands being a seperate issue from the minority of those bands which glorify terrorism by carrying UVF banners and calling thier bands after terrorists. (this is an analogy to get my point across not wateboutary).
As far as the Nationalist ethos goes I have no problem with that. The organisation is just a support organisation for activities that have always been here such as the Gaeilic sports the language, the singing and dancing etc. None of this is anything new to Ireland or Ulster. I remain to be convinced that anyone who has an interest in these sports or activaties regardless of their political outlook can take part.
If you define a unionist as someone who believes in the maintanance of the Union with britain and expresses this by exercising his democratic right every time there is a vote on the issue then I can see no reason why such a person should be in conflict with the GAA.
If however you define a Unionist as someone who is anti Irish language, gaeilic sports, Irish dance, Irish Culture, anti everything that was indigenous to this Island pre 1640. Anti everyone who has an Irish identity then I agree with you Qunicy a Unionist would probibly feel very unwelcome in the ranks.
maybe one of the clubs could hold a help the heroes evening as a gesture
As a kind of an equivalent to a fundraiser for a provisional martyr kind of thing?
Post updated: Shane O’Neill’s GAA Camlough host ‘terror fest’ this weekend…
Quincey,
Source? Evidence? As far as I can see and I work in Camlough at the moment. The setup for the hunger striker memorials are in private fields just outside camlough. The hungerstrike memorial is not hosted by or ogranised by the GAA club in Camlough.
I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this post but I detect a vain conceit that the author believes he represents all strands of unionism. He does not.
Here is one quote:
“Well another ‘factual reality’ is that you cannot be a member of the GAA and be a Unionist.”
This suggest that all unionists cannot tolerate the presence of the Irish tricolour and/or the playing of the Irish national anthem. Here is the next quote that I wish to highlight
“The GAA is not about Sport. Sport is only an element.”
This is a distortion. Nationalism is an element (albeit a significant one) of the GAA makeup but the sports themselves are central and fundemental.
Now to the heart of the discussion. Can the GAA do more to attract more sensitive unionists into the sport?
Certain features of big matches, such as Irish bands and announcements in Irish part of pan-Irish culture and are not considered by moderate unionists to be part of political expression. If those elements are off putting to unionists, that is a problem for unionists, not the GAA.
On the other hand, the GAA is not going to stop being a nationalist institution overnight. Nationalism is, after all, part and parcel of its founding tradition.
However, I dont see why the GAA should not water down certain features of nationalist expression as part of an incremental evolution of a more pure sporting ethos. The flying of the tricolour and the playing of the Irish national anthem could be restricted to cup finals played at Croke Park, whilst a gesture could be made towards unionists at the Ulster final by flying the union jack alongside the tricolour and playing ‘God save the Queen’ alongside Amhrán na bhFiann. IRA commemorations (which are not representative of all strands of Nationalism) could and should be banned completely.
No neil to help decent people who risk their lives on a daily basis for me you or anyone else, people by the way who are from ALL backgrounds and ALL areas both north and south of the border and further.
Your likening to a terrorist killer is rather sick, these men and women are in the modern forces and are mostly deployed by an authority that the irsh republic takes its seat on, and although the republic take a neutral stance, they do allow U.S movement who are engaged in the same conflicts so there are grounds to suggest we`re in this together.
Perhaps it seems strange to others who are not from this part of the world that you expect unionists to flock to the `political minded body` (GAA) whilst refusing to recognise a
non political task force who like it or not have members from both of our backgrounds and who in fact advertised for some years with a slogan `we particularly welcome applicants from the roman catholic community` If you dont live in the north or south of ireland you could put this into context by replacing the words roman catholics with black, white, muslim and so on and ask yourself if that sounds fair
Is it playing the man to say that this is one of the most badly-written posts in the history of the internet?
An average P7 would cringe.