The Men Who Won’t Stop Marching…

THE (restricted) Tour of the North parade gets under way in a few minutes. But if you don’t fancy getting wet, and still want to sample loyalist culture – in the safety of your own home no less – you could do worse than watch The Men Who Won’t Stop Marching. It’s one of the BBC’s Wonderland documentaries, and it’s absolutely fascinating to see the Shankill through the eyes of “Jordan, an eleven-year old aspiring drummer from one of the most famous former paramilitary families on the estate”.

More than ten years after the end of the troubles, filmmaker Alison Millar explores Belfast’s Shankill Road to find out how well the scars of war have healed.

What she found is a mixture of entrenched prejudice, relief that the troubles are over, nostalgia for the days of paramilitary discipline, and a battened-down resistance to talking about the past.

But when Jordan makes a shocking discovery at the end of his road, his father’s brittle silence cracks and he decides to take his son on a journey into his own past and through the Maze Prison where he had been inside for several years.

Well worth a watch before it goes offline on Wednesday.

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  • keano10

    The men who wont stop hating would be more apt…

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    It’s a documentary worth watching

  • Mr Crumlin

    I often wonder how the orange order (and unionist politicians) cannot see that their insistence on walking where they are not wanted is one of the most obvious threats to the North – without these tensions the dissidents would have no lifeblood and would wither on the vine.

    I just dont understand why someone would rather walk on a road where the community resents it rather than walk up and down the roads where they are welcomed and cheered.

    I have often argued if unionist politicians want to convince nationalists that their future lies in Northern Ireland within the UK then they need to confront the nonsense of orange parades in nationalist areas.

  • Mark McGregor

    Great the way it became clear from 3mins in that one of the central figures of this documentary was so ‘tired’ after a hard day’s work he could barely be woken for band practice at 7pm. He like all but one adult figure continually appeared to be ‘tired’, ‘emotional’ and bleary or pin-eyed throughout. The only non-‘emotional’ adult seemed well able in motivating the children in his newly formed band to run the streets collecting money for him after a recent business failure.

    Not much marching

  • http://sluggerotoole.com Belfast Gonzo

    Is the Tour an ‘Orange’ parade or a band parade? Surely the latter, though the difference to outsiders is negligible.

  • Mark McGregor

    Gonzo,

    The word ‘Protestant’ was raised in the documentary too, it was used interchangeably, wrongly, with ‘Loyalist’.

    Orange, Protestant, Loyalist, Unionist – they are fully or partially misused by supporters and objectors alike.

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    the catch all phrase i have heard recently is PUL (Protestant Unionist Loyalist)

  • Mark McGregor

    Though, I think it’s more important to point out the central figure in that documentary – Dylan – seemed a bright, able, amusing and likeable child. He could clearly do a lot in life if given the encouragement he deserves.

    We know the education system in the Shankill isn’t set up to nuture – hopefully this young man doesn’t join the generations of disgarded.

    In two years time will this kid with potential be another member of ‘feral youth’ left to descend into nothingness by Stormont?

  • nightrider

    Noticed the person Mark Mcgregor was referring to. Didn’t work, bankrupt, but was driving a BMW.(steering wheel)-they obviously weren’t allowed to film the car from the outside.
    He seemed happy enough, everyone else was miserable. The atmosphere and sense of ‘rundownness’ was palpable.
    Thoroughly depressing.

  • Mark McGregor

    Hey and if Alison Millar ever drops by:

    – you didn’t just observe, your presence resulted in major changes in Dylan’s life – changes that took place when a child becomes a young man, when they can have lasting and major impacts.

    You now have a responsibility to give Dylan something more than a thank you and moving on to the next project.

    You owe that kid something and its a longterm debt. Get to work on that.

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    The documentary was set up for a return that was pretty obvious Mark but it’s an interesting point you make.

  • Mark McGregor

    Mooch,

    It’s not ‘interesting’, surely it is obvious to anyone with kids or humanity? If you use a child as a central point in a documentary and as a result introduce major changes to their life – you as a responsible person have a duty to support that child through the changes and challenges you’ve introduced?

  • http://moochinphotoman.tumblr.com/ Moochin Photoman

    But thats an interesting point in that alot of people wouldn’t think about it or even consider it.
    I’m pretty sure Alison Millar will have been very aware of that and the beeb arn’t going to let something go to air if it was overtly exploitative.

  • Mark McGregor

    Mooch,

    I’m not suggesting exploitation. Personally my favourite moment was when you heard her whisper a ‘well done’ before Dylan went back into class after the band tryout.

    I’m suggesting the changed dynamic in father/son relationships demands a longer commitment to the family and Dylan from the producers.

  • Eddie (Eamonn) Mac Bhloscaidh

    Would be interested in hearing a loyalist view.

  • ulsterobserver

    Don’t waste your time watching The Men Who Won’t Stop Marching ! Very poor film making.

  • http://sluggerotoole.com Belfast Gonzo

    Mark

    What kind of commitment? Anything specific as an example? Just curious.

  • lamhdearg

    i think the boys name is jordan. i saw him tonight walking in his band uniform, big smile on his face, i found the program a little depressing.

  • Drumlins Rock

    I think it is a story that could be told in many run down old inner city areas across the western world, the bands and paramilitaries put a local twist to it, but in other cities its football and gangs, boxing and mafia, cars and racism, would taking the bands out of the equation improve the situation? Very unlikely, however maybe it will give some a means of escape, even if just for an hour or two a week, or maybe more, like if did for a young James Galway.

    BTW although there is a lot of the Shankill “band culture” I would be uncomfortable with to put it mildly, I have heard some excellent bands from the road over the years.

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    Eddie “would be interested in hearing a loyalist view”

    Well I shall oblige. The program basically follows the same plan as every other program on loyalism ever made. The plan basically is:

    1. Go to the Shankill
    2. Get the first person you meet who has a shaved head and a moustache.
    3. Get some moody shots of them looking into the distance and/or staring into the camera.
    4. Get them to mention the word “war” as often as possible.
    5. Get them to talk about terrorists as though they were just a great bunch o’ lads!
    6. Throw something in about defenders of the community.
    7. Get a an unemployed bloke in a BMW to show you how run down the local area is.
    8. Get some shots of murals.
    9. Flute band music every so often
    10. Some quick images of flute bands
    11. Something about Shankill Bomb
    12. Finish with a looking to the future bit… hope but not real hope.

    Optional/bonus material:
    Group of teenagers in baseball caps and full tracksuit looking moody on a grass hill
    shots of a boxing club
    shots of a church
    stock footage of terrorists and that video of the van blowing up.

    That’s pretty much it…

    As for the program itself well I would love to tell you what I thought about it but as a loyalist all I can say is….

    “It’s in the past, what you must understand is that it was a different time back then, people were just trying to make programming for BBC 2, now it’s time to get on with our lives and look towards the future.”

  • Zig70

    FAP, way to go from the kids on the Shankill, but how do we as a society stop kids like Jordan thinking that KAT or KAH is acceptable. Taigs are so close but in a different world. The only framework that comes to mind is schools. Compulsary NI history lessons to counter the romantic tales of community protection hero’s at home? Somehow don’t think it would work but may help a bit. My kids primary school has days at the local themuns school and that comes across very positively but then again he already knows some of them from football and cubs.

  • http://nalil.blogspot.com Nevin

    “after the end of the troubles”

    I thought the ‘troubles’ here have ebbed and flowed down through the generations. As the man said, “They haven’t gone away, you know”. The loyalist and republican marching bands represent an ‘evolution’ of the Loyal Orders/AOH culture; they’re a by-product of our troubled past.

  • fordprefect

    I watched that documentary, and I thought it was great, until we got to the usual part where th

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m more wondering how as a society we stop people giving their kids stupid names like “Jordan”.

  • fordprefect

    Sorry about that, (I leaned on the wrong key!) the part where they got to, i.e. “it’s the queens highway” etc. tells me that the people on that programme still have the mindset that says: “these are our roads, and we’ll walk on them no matter anyone says.” Catch a grip, as someone earlier said, march and bang drums in the areas where you are wanted (I’ve no problem with that) stay away from area where you aren’t!

  • anne warren

    Rhetoric should take a back seat on this topic.

    It’s undoubtedly better for young people to be engaged in getting some musical training than hanging around with undesirable elements.
    Creating a good band takes a phenomenal amount of work and practice which deserves to be recognized in parades.

    The young people look lovely in their uniforms and parents are rightly proud.

    However . . .
    Parents and responsible adults who are involved in organising band performances should insist bands march only where they are justly appreciated because they know musicians will be in no danger and will not be exposed to the horrors and danger of sectarian rioting.

    Otherwise how would you feel if your child were psychologically damaged and/or physically injured and you knew it was a possibility/probability and did nothing to avert it?

    Young Protestants deserve better. Let their committment to this type of traditional music be applauded where it is wanted.

  • http://[email protected] joeCanuck

    Apropos of nothing much really, but when I was 16 the organizer of a local band approached me and my two best pals and asked them if they would like to join his marching band and to learn to play an instrument. I immediately said that I would and he said “No, you’re too smart and need to be at your books”. I went to the Grammar school while my pals went to the Seconday school. I was very disappointed.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I’m interested in this “don’t go where you are not welcome” angle. Should it apply to anyone else ? Like gay pride marches for example ?

  • fordprefect

    Comrade Stalin, I personally wouldn’t have a problem with a gay pride parade coming through the area where I live, I have a problem though, when people march through/into/ past an area where they are not wanted, and sing and play songs with lyrics like: “we are up to our necks in Fenian blood” etc.

  • anne warren

    Comrade
    As far as I know the Gay Pride march in Belfast does not attempt to march along streets where it risks being attacked because residents are firmly opposed to a Gay Pride march for historical reasons.

    Gay Pride celebrates gaining some rights (gay marriage is now legal in the UK) and presumably campaigns for others. Do OO marches set out a want list for extending the equality agenda in the future?

    Finally since gays come from all sides of the community (I suppose), Gay Pride does not set out to provoke sectarian hatred. Can the OO say the same?

    The same type of arguments can be made for other organisations that organise marches e.g. trade unions, anti-war campaigners, animal rightists, anti-nuclear power activists and so on.

  • fordprefect

    anne warren, yep, keep all the marches in the city centre (Belfast), then they won’t annoy anyone. It’s a shared city remember.

  • lamhdearg

    Thank you comrade, you have the b**ls i dont regarding gay pride, and the question has brought out interesting responses from anne and fordprefect.”. first fordprefect, “I personally wouldn’t have a problem with a gay pride parade coming through the area where I live”, But what if someone does have a problem, and they wave a big enough stick, should gay pride marches be rerouted. ” I have a problem though, when people march through/into/ past an area where they are not wanted, and sing and play songs with lyrics like: “we are up to our necks in Fenian blood” etc.”, i am glad ect is on the end of this as i dont think the billy boys is a band tune, also even if the bands agree not to play any tunes (as has been the case with the tour of the north for years) while passing the contentious part of the parade route, this has not been enough for those who wave said Big Stick, anne, a hypothetical, but what if residents who where firmly opposed to gay pride say on the basis of their religious beliefs, and they attacked the gay pride march and the police, should the march be rerouted, or the residents faced down. lastly (as i am sure i am boring most) giving in to the big stick or as the parade commision put it stopping “damage to community relations” only ups the anti,ie if the loyalist wave a bigger stick, then they win and the next time the irish nats will need an even bigger stick again, now long before the stick is put down and the gun is picked up.

  • Mr Crumlin

    I honestly do not understand the mentality of walking and marching where you are not wanted – infact where you are hated. Why on earth would anyone want to go there?

    I have spent many a good night at a wolfe tone concert. One of the reasons they are great nights is that I am in a concert hall with strangers who think like me – no trouble, no one offended, nothing like that.

    By all means march until your feet hurt – up and down the Shankill, Woodvale, all the side streets and the main roads – even march into the town centre. But for the love of everything that is decent stay away from nationalist areas.

    Comrade – As for gay pride – I think you will find they parade in Belfast city centre – shared space. But I like your idea – let the gay pride parade go up the Falls and down the Shankill – that is what you meant, right?

  • anne warren

    Lamh Dearg

    Your hypothetical question seems to come down to a question of balancing rights.

    So residents, shop and business owners and their staff (for whatever reason) do not want to have a parade through their area, disrupting their daily business and potentially causing damage to property and injuring individuals. Not having a parade will save taxpayers a lot of money and free up police and ambulance services for the needs of the general public.
    This is a reasonable position.

    The alternative is to insist on parading through an area where it has been shown over the years that parades prevent residents from going about their daily business, damage property and injure individuals . This type of parade has been associated with havoc, large bills for the taxpayer for police and hospital services, etc.

    This hardly appears to be a reasonable stance and I suggest the rights of a majority (residents etc as well as the general public) outweigh those of the paraders

    As I said in an earlier post, I also think the young bandsmen and women should not be exposed to this type of situation.

    I agree with Ford prefect that all marches should take place in Belfast City Centre or in amenable areas.

  • lamhdearg

    mr crumlin
    Ligoniel O,O, walk from Ligoniel orange hall, to join up with the main parade the route takes them past 11 houses at the ardoyne shops, it takes them less than 3 mins to walk pass the houses, they have agreed not to play music from almost half a mile before to a couple of hundred yards after the houses. so in response to your question “I honestly do not understand the mentality of walking and marching where you are not wanted – infact where you are hated. Why on earth would anyone want to go there? ” i say this, to get from a to c you pass b, and i ask why, cant the parade be let to pass in peace.

  • lamhdearg

    anne
    i think my response to mr crumlin answers some of the points you make, let the parade pass in peace and none of the disruption would take place.

  • anne warren

    Lamh dearg
    Residents and business people do not want the parade because of what it represents.
    They are entitled to hold this view.
    The parade is seen as a provocation which triggers civil unrest. The taxpayer picks up the bill and we all have to cope with bad feelings stirred up by the parade and civil unrest.

    Now I am not at all familiar with the area but I find it hard to believe that an alternative route from at to b cannot be found (or even a path constructed if necessary).

    Why do marchers prefer to walk in resentful sullen silence along a certain few hundred yards rather than marching along an alternative route, playing all the songs they want and presumably enjoying themselves as they so?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Ford:

    Comrade Stalin, I personally wouldn’t have a problem with a gay pride parade coming through the area where I live

    Yeah, but surely you would sympathize with someone who found the gay parade offensive ? After all, you’re the guy who is saying that people shouldn’t go where they aren’t welcome.

    I have a problem though, when people march through/into/ past an area where they are not wanted, and sing and play songs with lyrics like: “we are up to our necks in Fenian blood” etc.

    OK, well that changes things. So you wouldn’t have a problem if, say, the OO agreed to pass through the area silently ?

    Mr Crumlin:

    I honestly do not understand the mentality of walking and marching where you are not wanted – infact where you are hated. Why on earth would anyone want to go there?

    Because they’re twats ? And being a twat in a free society is something that should generally be permitted ?

    By all means march until your feet hurt – up and down the Shankill, Woodvale, all the side streets and the main roads – even march into the town centre. But for the love of everything that is decent stay away from nationalist areas.

    Why don’t we go all the way and split the country up into zones and create rules about who is allowed to pass through what bits ? Let’s call them “townships”.

    Comrade – As for gay pride – I think you will find they parade in Belfast city centre – shared space. But I like your idea – let the gay pride parade go up the Falls and down the Shankill – that is what you meant, right?

    No, what I meant is that – to paraphrase your comment – they shouldn’t march where they are “hated”. And why restrict it to simply marching – shouldn’t we just stop them from assembling anywhere where a sufficient number of people don’t like them ?

  • Chris Donnelly

    mr crumlin
    Ligoniel O,O, walk from Ligoniel orange hall, to join up with the main parade the route takes them past 11 houses at the ardoyne shops, it takes them less than 3 mins to walk pass the houses, they have agreed not to play music from almost half a mile before to a couple of hundred yards after the houses. so in response to your question “I honestly do not understand the mentality of walking and marching where you are not wanted – infact where you are hated. Why on earth would anyone want to go there? ” i say this, to get from a to c you pass b, and i ask why, cant the parade be let to pass in peace.

    Lamh dearg

    The same argument could be made for a republican parade from Ligoneil down to Ardoyne.

    Try selling that one to your loyalist friends. Perhaps then we’d be able to settle this, the last of the explosive parades.

  • PaulT

    Do you think Gay Pride would ever turn nasty and insist on stopping outside a church playing YMCA loudly,

  • Zig70

    The other thing that struck me was 13 bands in a small area at a cost of 25k each including uniforms and instruments. That’s a heavy bill. I think that is startup costs, not sure what the running cost is. Still disappointed nobody was playing primal scream covers as suggested on Slugger before.

  • lamhdearg

    anne
    sorry in delayed response (living room celing another coat of paint) there is no other viable route. your “path constructed” leads be to believe, that even if your not familiar with the area you may be familiar with the argument, as it has been discussed on slugger before (in fact if i knew how, i would just reprint some of my posts from last year). the fact is the the only other route that would please/ remove the excuse for stirring the pot, the G.A.R.C., is not a viable route. if you would like to walk first the trad route and then the alternative route( side drum in place) with me you will agree.

  • lamhdearg

    chirs
    the garc should let the tour parade pass without protest next year and ask the p.c. for premission for a parade from Legoniel for the next easter.

  • lamhdearg

    zig70
    “Still disappointed nobody was playing primal scream covers as suggested on Slugger before.”
    i will assume you where there to hear they did not.
    “That’s a heavy bill”
    the people of the greater shankill like there bands.

  • lamhdearg

    PaulT
    on gay pride turning nasty. just for a laugh put on a cassock and go to the next one as a protester, dont forget to bring something to wipe of the spittle, ohh and if you live in the town center and on gay pride march day you come across a couple of men (i think they where men as the one doing the pissing was standing up) dressed as ladies of the night and useing your hallway as a toilet, do not suggest they go somewhere else, as some gays just like all other people can turn nasty all right.

  • Mr Crumlin

    Seriously thats the answer – to get from A to C you have to go through B?? Isnt there buses?

    Heres a compromise for the 12th.

    The orangemen march past the Ardoyne in the morning – maybe the residents hold a dignified protest (as always in the morning) but the OO get a bus home and the area is not hemmed in for the whole day. Tensions are defused and marching and protest take place before the drink and hanger-ons get involved. Now what is wrong with that idea?

  • anne warren

    Lamh dearg
    Yes, I remember last year’s discussion and a map I couldn’t make head or tail of!!!
    Hope your ceiling turned out well and the smell of paint isn’t driving you out of the house!
    Might take you up on the offer of a walk – we could invite Mootchin Photoman to take pics or a video as well as any other Sluggerites who happen to be around. We could interview both sides and set up a new thread with clear, impartial evidence!!

  • Mark McGregor

    Gonzo,

    I certainly wouldn’t suggest money, it was pretty clear that would eventually be turned into water by the father.

    A music bursary that involves more than the side drum his school was offering? I’m sure those edumacated enough to produce TV programmes could think of a way to positively contribute to the subject’s life effected when they are very young children?

  • Aontachtach

    I watched the programme and found it cringeworthy. I have also spoken to a few friends from the Shankill who were totally embarrassed by it. I felt incredibly sorry for the young lad Jordan. I was brought up a few miles from him in a working class family and yet my father would have never used language that was used in front of that lad. I never heard it used by my friends fathers as well. There was absolutely nothing in this programme that made me feel proud of the area that I grew up in. I found it very depressing.

  • lamhdearg

    mr crumlin
    i will give you the benefit of the doubt, again.
    the area is not hemmed in all day, within ten minutes of the parade passing the security cordren is removed completely and only returns ten minutes before the bands pass again in the evening (unless the G.a.r.c. are blocking the road), but the need for a security corden could be remove completely if the G.a.r.c. would drop their threat of violence, then only a few police would be required to observe the peaceful protest (if their must be one) and the marchers, i think we would find that with an agreed march the hangers on would not show up and the trouble would be minimal.

  • lamhdearg

    Aontachtach
    i agree, when the boy awoke the “Father” his response to the child made me shout at the t.v.

  • Mark McGregor

    Lads/ladettes,

    Let’s not forget the main subject was Jordan, not his father, and he was a fantastic young boy. Wouldn’t it be great if he and other kids like him on the Shankill had more ambition at 11 than playing the side drum in the band?

    He clearly was able for a lot more – that he had such limited horizons is a reflection on so much more than his ‘daddy’.

  • Aontachtach

    Mark
    I agree with you that he is a fantastic young lad lad and hopefully he will get the oppuntunity to do something with his life other than playing in a “blood and thunder” band. Unfortunately for him and a lot of other kids( from both sides of the fence) he has parents who probably don’t give a toss about their kids and education is not a priority for them.
    As a father I was disgusted by this young lads parents.

  • lamhdearg

    mark
    i dare say jordan (glad you got his name right) has other ambitions, but at 11 being like your daddy has a lot of clout. Any plans for a post on how rory is doing

  • fordprefect

    lamhdearg, I take it that you refer to yourself as “British?” If so, you should get yourself a dictionary and learn how to spell properly! While you’re at it, try to learn some grammar as well!

  • lamhdearg

    ford
    i do refer to myself as British, as that is what it says on my passport ect, i am not sure of your link of being British and spelling, unless it is to the English language you refer. i will (and have before) admit to being challenge in that dept, lets hope that after your little outburst on the matter, your English is perfect.

  • Icarus

    The wee fella in the documentary seems to be very intelligent and is a credit to his parents considering the environment he’s being brought up in. I also noticed the kid’s parents’ sentences rarely go over eight syllables. All in all, the documentary made for pretty depressing viewing.

    There is a fundamental difference between gay pride parades, st. Patricks day parades etc and loyalist parades – loyalist parades commemorate ‘victories’, and these ‘victories’ are almost always over the perceived catholic/nationalist/Irish/republican communities, past or present. They are a direct affront to many people.

    In terms of Lamhdearg’s argument that it’s only a few minutes here and there for parades to pass etc – it’s important to remember Northern Ireland is bigger than Belfast, and the Ardoyne shop front! It’s disgraceful that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months.

    If you sliced unionist parading and marching with the same intensity as NI has to endure it, and implanted it into London, for example, the capital of Britain and the British people, it would be interesting to see if it would be tolerated. Also if it’s part of ‘British culture’, why are almost all British people (on the island of Britain!) bemused by unionist marching in Ireland?

  • Reader

    Icarus: In terms of Lamhdearg’s argument that it’s only a few minutes here and there for parades to pass etc – it’s important to remember Northern Ireland is bigger than Belfast, and the Ardoyne shop front! It’s disgraceful that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months.
    You’re running ahead of the script. The official republican position is that it’s only a small number of marches and parades that are the problem, and if only those could be stopped then everything would be wonderful.
    You may have to wait a year or so before you can ramp up a campaign to set a quota. Don’t frighten the horses.

  • http://www.e-consultation.org/ davenewman

    Instead of marching, why not try dancing or just sauntering along the road?

    Marching is so antiquated, armies travel by helicopter today.

  • Icarus

    Reader – Good Lord! Heaven forbid I deviated from the ‘script’. I’m not a republican and I do not live in Belfast and I’m not overly concerned with the ‘official republican position’, I was voicing my personal opinion.

    I dislike almost every aspect of the annual sectarian parades and resent their ability (or is that their ‘right’) to grind normal life to a standstill again, and again, and again. I remember attempting to drive through Newry last year and was forced to stay in my car on a road for an hour whilst a sectarian parades blasted it was through the centre of the town. Newry is obviously an overwhelmingly nationalist town but not to worry the unionist banners came from all over Down to obliterate normality – and that was just a practice march.

    Therefore, like I said previous, but what you seemed to miss is it’s important to remember Northern Ireland is bigger than Belfast, and the Ardoyne shop front, and It’s disgraceful that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months.

    I am sorry to hear those who deviate from your script frightens the metaphorical horses – are members of the Loyal Orders still using horses? That would probably explain the sh*t left in the wake of marches, only I never realised horses sh*t out empty tins of special brew

  • Icarus

    davenewman – ‘sauntering’ maybe an idea! The Grand Imperial master Wizard man or whatever he’s called should get in contact with the Minsiter for Silly Walks to discuss funding:

  • lamhdearg

    Icarus
    “It’s disgraceful that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months. “. Do you believe that if you say something, over and over again that someone will believe it, that can be the only reasoning i can think of, for this little peice of codswallop, that you keep spouting, you would not be prone to exaggertion would you, try not to fly to close to the truth.

  • Icarus

    Settle down lamhdearg, I take it you didn’t like the video then?

    Maybe if you explained why there’s no truth in it I’d be able to respond.

    I’m sure you would state that ‘marching’ has zero negative effect on normal life in NI, and that my experiences in Newry were hallucinations?

  • lamhdearg

    Icarus
    there is truth in the fact the people including me can get caught behind a band parade and held up, we can (and i was just this year) also get caught up in traffic due to say the belfast marathon or the down junior homecoming in newcastle ( for those outside belfast), what does not happen is that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months. so why keep repeating something that is completely untrue. unless you are pushing an agenda. also “settle down” i am calm, and thank you for the silly walks link.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Icarus:

    There is a fundamental difference between gay pride parades, st. Patricks day parades etc and loyalist parades – loyalist parades commemorate ‘victories’, and these ‘victories’ are almost always over the perceived catholic/nationalist/Irish/republican communities, past or present. They are a direct affront to many people.

    The OO would say that their marches aren’t all about victories, but about celebrating their culture and religious liberty.

    As for gay pride parades, there are a great many people (fucking morons I might add) who consider them a “direct affront”, and who do not like, as they see it, people flaunting their “perversions” in the faces of them and their children.

    It’s disgraceful that the entire country is systematically ground to a halt every year for months, not one day but months.

    OK, so it sounds like you don’t actually live in NI, maybe it’s a faraway place you read about in the pages of An Phoblacht. Those of us who actually live here are unaware of being “hemmed into their homes” or of the community being “ground to a halt”. I mean look at the TV footage, if people were hemmed in then how did they get out to riot for several days on the trot ?

  • Skinner

    the father seemed unable to give an explanation for why he was fighting a war. he certainly couldn’t explain why he was imprisoned by the very state he claimed to be fighting for, not against. it seemed to me that he realised it was all entirely pointless but just couldn’t admit it to himself or his son. the one good thing was that he taught his son that it would be a bad thing to go back to those days.

    none of the loyalists could offer an explanation for why the actions of say, brian robinson, were those of a hero. the lack of self inspection was depressing.

  • Nunoftheabove

    Skinner

    Yes the lack of reflection, self-examination and insight and the strong sense of orthodoxy was palpable pretty much throughout. I was left quite saddened by the programme. How restrictive, how limiting this environment truly is, how empty and devoid of meaning and fulfillment and dignity other aspects of these people’s lives are such that Orangeism/B&T band membership can enjoy such an elevated position. Almost tangibly claustrophobic is the sense of the space in which some of these youngsters grow up in. How injurious the environment is to independent thought, to ambition, encouragement to explore opportunities, express themselves, to better themselves, to get up and out, to have a go. Intolerant of free exchange, dismissive of new ideas, suspicious of difference, ignorant of otherness, parochial and narrow. Textbook Marxist alienation, some of it. Lumpen.

    Such a pity that one of the facets of this society is that which condemns – in the name of some perversion of notions of tolerance – often promising children to stultification of the type shown and that it assumes a centrality in their lives so early – horrible. How dreadfully empty the existences that have at their core such silly superstitions, vacuous nationalisms, vicious disdain for the outsider. Such trashy role models too – snake-oil selling opportunist clerics and papist-murdering criminals (sometimes one and the same people).

    It’s a great pity that the next time some demagogic figure stands up and tells us that there is no contradiction between enabling the children of the Shankill to fulfill their full potential in life and applauding the role of loyalist bands in promoting the self-worth of ‘working class Protestant societies; it won’t be the decent citizens of the Shankill Road themselves that aren’t chasing him down the street.

  • lamhdearg

    nun.
    achyerballix.

  • Icarus

    Comrade Stalin:

    “The OO would say that their marches aren’t all about victories, but about celebrating their culture and religious liberty”

    Okay then, almost all of their marches are about perceived victories, however you cite religious liberty as a non ‘victory’ category of such demonstrations – I was of the understanding the liberty part referred to the theological victory over ‘popery’ and the teachings of the ‘antichrist’, again a direct and obstinate reference to almost half the population of NI, i.e. Catholics.

    When I hear people refer to orange marches as ‘cultural’ I cringe. If dressing up in histrionic pseudo-military Idi Amin/Muammar Gaddafi/ Michael Jackson (bad era) style uniforms whilst banging the life out of a drum occasionally upholding enormous banners of terrorists qualifies as culture; then I’ll be damned.

    I take your point on the potential problems with Gay Pride parades, however I think the difference then would be in the amount of parades loyalists engage in whilst, as far as I’m aware, Gay Pride parades are restricted to a handful per annum, if even.

    “OK, so it sounds like you don’t actually live in NI, maybe it’s a faraway place you read about in the pages of An Phoblacht. Those of us who actually live here are unaware of being “hemmed into their homes” or of the community being “ground to a halt”. I mean look at the TV footage, if people were hemmed in then how did they get out to riot for several days on the trot ?”

    I’ve lived in Northern Ireland all my life, which may or may not mean I’ve lived here longer than you. I’m certainly not a republican and I do not read An Phoblacht. I never said anything about being ‘hemmed into their homes’, so not too sure where that came from.

    However I do believe sectarian marches systematically grind normality to a halt at times during the marching season; literally in the form of being ground to a halt in traffic, economically as many are forced to stay away from work on particular days, socially due to the restrictions of movement around our towns and villages and emotionally as any good community work that has been achieved throughout the year is undone or wreaked.

  • carl marks

    Icarus
    im surpised at you do you not know that pointing out the obvious and disagreeing with supporters of the oo and b&t bands makes you a supporting of the antichrist and a rebel,
    all those times that i have had to sit in my car or cancel a trip because a group of strahgly dressed people waving banners with escorted by drunken secterian idiots have been just bad dreams,
    please remembr these are just christain men going to service the fact that they listen to anti catholic speechs belongto a sect that will let there mamers go to a muslim, hindu , or any type of wedding or funeral as long as it’s not catholic or not let any member marry a catholic does’nt give you the right to complain so next time your stuck i your car behind just sit back and enjoy te vitroil

  • carl marks

    lamhdearg (profile) says:
    19 June 2011 at 8:27 pm

    nun.
    achyerballix.

    nice to see you can put up a balanced argument i think nun won that one

  • lamhdearg

    just in some good news,”The annual Whiterock Orange Order parade has passed off peacefully” or is that not good news for some “Meanwhile Ardoyne residents held a protest on the Crumlin Road on Saturday afternoon.”, even though there was no parade at ardoyne.

  • andnowwhat

    In fairness, orange marches are the greatest gift to the cause of nationalism.

    For example, I tell my 10 year old child nothing about my opinions, what happened and what’s happening. Hopefully when she’s growen up NI will be different, better but it will be the parades that will be the last marker of division and our past history.

    My nephew, now 20 years old, is a child of a mixed marriage (dad is from the village in Belfast) was brought up this way. He has no time for the orders (of which his grandfather was a member) and is an avid nationalist.

    Even in this society that Robbo invisages there will always be the attitude (not the traditional culture mind) that will always keep the scar weeping.

  • lamhdearg

    anyone from ballysillan wanting to attend the whiterock parade had to pass the G.a.r.c. protest, intimidation?.

  • lamhdearg

    I am banging my drum (no pun intended) on this post as a peaceful O.O. parade seems not to warrant a post of its own. I have just listened to west belfast M.P. paul maskey say on utv “the people on this road have been restricted to their homes for most of the day” and “people have been restricted to their homes they cant go out and do shopping or anything else”, can someone tell me why a M.P. in belfast is able to tell such easy to disprove untruths on the t.v., and he is not challenged on them.

  • lamhdearg

    back to the top

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    Carl Marks the rules forbid members attending Roman Catholic and any other non reformed worship… which includes any other church outside of the reformed tradition (even muslims, jews etc.) so your nonsense about the order singling out Roman Catholicism is nonsense.

    Icarus the majority of Orange parades are “Church parades” where the brethren walk to their local place of worship to give thanks to God. Not to celebrate “victories” as you falsely said. You are wrong in citing the liberty aspect of the Institution as being based on “liberty” from Roman Catholicism as though anyone would celebrate the schism and breaking up of the body of Christ, instead it is the liberty of a constitutional democracy over the “Divine right of Kings” system of governance that we celebrate.

    Plus your quote of “antichrist” comes from the Presbyterian church’s Westminster Confession of faith and the Church of Ireland’s 39 articles rather than any Orange rulebook and personally I find it sectarian that you would try and falsely link the statement of faith and belief of my church with the Orange Institution as though they were one and the same.

    If you have a problem with the Protestant churches and their statement of beliefs then say so but please don’t try and take potshots at my religion and faith and then try to claim you were only slagging off the orange.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    Why the need to ‘parade’ to church rather than just drive/walk there in civilian clothing ? Why do it in uniform in what is a plain replication of a military formation ? Surely if you’re celebrating the glorious revolution from which it is claimed the civil and religious liberties your position dervives then you’re unequivocally celebrating military victories whereby, it is claimed, these were secured ? Why so little emphasis on the civil and religious liberties themselves, little or no attempt to celebrate them in alternative ways, no attempt to emphasise the benefits of civil and religious liberties for non-Protestants ?

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    Ammm Nunoftheabove I would call a suit, shirt and tie on a Sunday morning “civilian clothing”.

    As a young Orangeman my own personal opinions would be that the order’s problems came about in the early 1800’s when the Order – a rurally based working class protestant led organisation devoted to promoting the protestant churches – was hijacked by the Landed gentry and the rich of the day. They changed the Order into a Dublin based, Aristocracy led institution which served one purpose – to divide the working people of Ireland into two opposing camps based on religion so that another “United” Rebellion (which had taken only a handful of year before) could never come about again and so that the gentry’s vice like grip over this country could continue limitless.

    Thus celebrating Civil and Religious liberty of the non- conformist and Roman Catholic people was hushed up and stepped over rather quickly by the Anglican led Grand Lodge. They changed the general view among the Protestant people and made them believe that the Roman Catholic Church rather than the Anglican church was their oppressor.

    “Surely if you’re celebrating the glorious revolution from which it is claimed the civil and religious liberties your position dervives then you’re unequivocally celebrating military victories whereby, it is claimed, these were secured?”

    On the 12th of July I give parade to a religious service to give thanks to Almighty God for giving King William III victory over his father in law King James II, I unlike the great swathe of Orangemen actually bother to read the rules and what it is our Institution stands for (or meant to stand for). I most certainly do not march to thank King William III as if he won through his own might or power. It is God’s providence that I celebrate not military victories. Civil and Religious reforms were fought and won in the Parliament chamber not on the battlefield and thanks to the sectarianism of the day it would be along time before the Aristocracy in the Dublin government got round to implementing William’s reforms and relief for non-conformists and Roman Catholics.

    “Why so little emphasis on the civil and religious liberties themselves, little or no attempt to celebrate them in alternative ways, no attempt to emphasise the benefits of civil and religious liberties for non-Protestants?”

    The Orange Order has been in decline for about 60 years… prior to the home rule escapades it was almost gone but thanks to Carson et Craig et al during the 1900-1950 mark the Order grew rapidly as fears were manipulated. With the Order declining men took anyone who waned to join, regardless of their adherence to the rules and qualifications. Bigots, Drunks, Paramilitaries etc etc all joined and even quite openly walk with lodges which believe it or not serves to put more good men off. It is frighteningly hard to explain to a man who is only interested in getting to a pub, or another who just wants to rant and rave nonsense about ROME that the Church of Ireland is not “the same as the fenians” never mind trying to explain how King William III made sure that laws concerning Roman Catholics and non conformists were eased in the late 17th Century.

    Plus the Order is run by Old men who won’t shift. Men who still remember the Old Days when the tricolour was illegal, when the government was all prod, when there was one unionist party and when the Orange Order had a semblance of power… those days have gone and those men should have went with them but alas they are still up there in Grand Lodge clogging up the arteries of the Order all while wondering why “young un’s” think the Order is old and outdated.

  • lamhdearg

    Smoke is rising into the sky in east belfast, after a peacefull “somme” parade.

  • andnowwhat

    I would like to congratulate Youngpolitico on a fantastic post.

  • http://[email protected] joeCanuck

    Yes, Youngpolitical’s views are a good testament, acknowledging that the OO has been hijacked from it’s religious origins (don’t know if that is true) to a political organization.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Icarus,

    I suggest you pay close attention to “youngpolitico”‘s contributions above.

    To solve our problems in Northern Ireland it is necessary for us all to confront and question our own prejudices. A lot of nationalists, and people like myself who are from a nationalist background (at least, theoretically), would traditionally have believed quite sincerely that the only people who need to confront their erroneous beliefs were unionists.

    I don’t have to remember that hard, but not that long ago I would not have entertained the notion that there is anything respectable or legitimate about the Orange Order or those who march on the 12th July. This is something that for a long time was essentially encouraged by the fact that Orangemen seemed to be uninterested in patiently explaining their case, or distancing themselves from shameful behaviour eg during Drumcree. In the past few years I have questioned those older beliefs of mine, not least because Orangemen such as Fair Deal (whose contributions here are missed) and “youngpolitico” above (whose contribution may possibly not be recognized by a certain proportion of Orangemen, but which is well argued and eloquent nonetheless) have come out from behind the barricades and begun to explain what it is all about, and how it is not simply a bunch of angry fenian-haters engaging in a massive demonstration of one-upmanship. Sure, for quite a few people that is what it is about – but for a lot of them it is a case of commemorating liberties fought for and won.

    I’m an atheist and I don’t like to get wrapped up too much in events of more than a few decades ago – nonetheless I can see where they are coming from. I really don’t understand personally the need to go marching or profess faith or whatever, but surely it’s better to live and let live provided no harm is being done.

    The “ground to a halt” thing is really overcooked. The 12th causes little or no disruption these days – a definite improvement on the past – it’s no worse than a Sunday. Outside of the day itself the marches are in the evenings and with a little care you can avoid them. There really is, to me, nothing to get worked up about here. What I do have problems with are the widespread flouting of the law around burning large piles of wood and rubbish in public places, the illegal drinking (or sometimes, drug taking) that goes on, and the occasions where marchers (or hangers on) behave disrespectfully or with full on evil intent towards the communities where they are temporary guests.

  • http://[email protected] joeCanuck

    Good honest post, Comrade.

  • http://[email protected] joeCanuck

    And, I miss Fair Deals posts too although he does comment occasionally.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    We were speaking at cross-purposes there, I was of the impression we were talking about formation bands of Orange parading to some form of church service. My apologies if I’ve picked that up wrongly.

    “On the 12th of July I give parade to a religious service to give thanks to Almighty God for giving King William III victory over his father in law King James II”

    – So just to be clear – you literally think that there was a supernatural intervening finger in the battle ? If so, are you not also entitled – indeed obliged – to repudiate the same interventionist deity for necessitating the battle in the first place given that presumably you feel that that situation was at best facilitated by – perhaps specifically created by – the same deity in the full knowledge of all of the misery which would attend it ?

    “It is God’s providence that I celebrate not military victories”.

    – Surely if you are that persuaded a Christian mere earthly victories are at best pyrrhic in any case ?

    I agree with you that “It is frighteningly hard to explain to a man who is only interested in getting to a pub, or another who just wants to rant and rave nonsense about ROME that the Church of Ireland is not “the same as the fenians” never mind trying to explain how King William III made sure that laws concerning Roman Catholics and non conformists were eased in the late 17th Century”. From my experience it is the former view which predominates within the OO and in the public perception actually defines it. That being the case, aren’t you – to say the very least of it – uncomfortable about being associated with this and wouldn’t it therefore be more dignified to dissociate yourself from all of that ignorance, boorishness and socially poisonous belief and activity by simply leaving it and/or repudiating it ?

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    No, I think that God in his providence gave William the victory, that does not necessarily mean that God intervened divinely in the proceedings just that he predestined it to occur in such a way that it occurred as it did. As for the goodness of God predestining battles etc. it is not my place to judge my creator. If He predestined the battle then it must have been for the benefit of those saved in Christ and for His grater glory.

    “Surely if you are that persuaded a Christian mere earthly victories are at best pyrrhic in any case?”

    God’s Will in earthly battle or anything else for that matter is never pyrrhic. All things come to pass for the Glory of God… that is the true victory. King James’s forces won the battle at Dromore in 1688, that was God’s Will and came to pass for the greater glory of God and the benefit of the saved in Christ, King William’s forces won at the Boyne which was God’s will and came to pass for the greater glory of God and the benefit of the saved in Christ. Both William and James were on opposing sides yet the true victor was always the same… God.

    Christ went in to the lowly, the drunkards, the liars, the idolaters, the social outcasts and showed them that there was a better way… a higher way, what sort of Christian would I be if I severed ties with people because I thought they weren’t “Christian” enough?

    I did however leave my local lodge for pastures green, I was the last member of my family to be a member of my local lodge, 150 years of family ties with that lodge were severed with me leaving and let me tell you at 19 years of age that was a difficult move. Now two years later there are still those who cross over the street when they see me, there are those who call me names and I feel like a complete pariah in my own local village. This is all done not by teens or 30 year old “ruffians” but by elderly men, neighbours and family friends, even elders in the local church are the people who have tried to make my life hell… why? Well I didn’t agree with loyalist paramilitaries having anything to do with the lodge. I’m in a new lodge and it is great, but I consider resigning for the reasons you and others cite but the Order is all that this area has… we don’t have a cinema, leisure complex or even shops (bar one corner shop) but we have lodges.

    Of course I am uncomfortable about the Order and its many failings but the Order was there through many times of woe. When I lost my job it was the Order that helped pay for my education, when I was lonely it was my lodge that gave me company, when I was bored it was the lodge that gave me something to do…

    I just pray that God will guide the Order back to Him and away from the mires it has fallen into.

    Apologies for the length of post and the “churchy-ness” of it :)

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    “God in his providence gave William the victory, that does not necessarily mean that God intervened divinely in the proceedings”

    – So you’re hedging here – are you saying that he might have or that you’re not sure ? Is it just battles he might not intervene in or doesn’t he intervene in anything… ever ?

    “…just that he predestined it to occur in such a way that it occurred as it did”

    – But presumably as he owns/creates/sees/controls everything he would, as it were, be ultimately responsible for the predestination ? Or does he have a rival or two in the military predestination space ?

    “He predestined the battle then it must have been for the benefit of those saved in Christ and for His grater glory”.

    – Sorry, you’ll need to help me here as that sentence made no sense of any kind to me. Saved from what ? Why would he benefit some but not all ? Again, either he’s intervening or he isn’t – which do you believe and why ?

    “All things come to pass for the Glory of God… that is the true victory”

    – Sorry, again I need that translating into some form of coherence; victory for whom over what or whom and for what possible reason ? How much glory does god need and why would he be impressed by any that humans could give him if he created their ability to give it in the first place and threatened them with eternal fire if they didn’t abide by his wishes anyway ? Surely that’s just narcissism and compulsory love, unbecoming traits in any person and unflattering to most deities too ?

    “ King James’s forces won the battle at Dromore in 1688, that was God’s Will”

    – Just this particular battle or all or most battles ? How do you know this ?

    “the true victor was always the same… God”.

    – So god’s guys always win and his enemies always lose, is that what you’re saying ?

    “Christ went in to the lowly, the drunkards, the liars, the idolaters, the social outcasts and showed them that there was a better way… a higher way”

    – A higher/better way than…what ? The good Samaritan seemed to behave fairly morally (even by Christian standards) and he was held up as an example to Christians by the alleged Christ. Wherever he got his morality from it certainly wasn’t Christianity.

    ”When I lost my job it was the Order that helped pay for my education, when I was lonely it was my lodge that gave me company, when I was bored it was the lodge that gave me something to do…”

    – It sounds like perhaps you need to get out of the village a bit more often and seek the company of …some different people and find some fun things to do. Good luck with that.

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    “you’re hedging here – are you saying that he might have or that you’re not sure ? Is it just battles he might not intervene in or doesn’t he intervene in anything… ever ?”

    No, no hedging, you are confusing providence with divine intervention, they are two different (though related) things.

    “All things that come to pass are by God’s Will through Providence.
    – Sorry, you’ll need to help me here as that sentence made no sense of any kind to me. Saved from what ? Why would he benefit some but not all ? Again, either he’s intervening or he isn’t – which do you believe and why ?”
    Saved from their sin through Christ. He has no need to save anyone as all have sinned but He has predestined some to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation, it is not for man to know the ways of God’s election. Calvin called this the “horrible doctrine” for obvious reasons. For a defence of said doctrine a quick check of any of the reformed confessions online with Scriptural references will be of tremendous help to you.

    The victory of God over sin. It is perfectly coherent.

    It is not my place to judge my creator.

    ” Just this particular battle or all or most battles ? How do you know this ?”

    All battles because everything that comes to pass is God’s Will through Providence, if God had not willed something to happen then it could not have happened. – again check nay reformed confession with scriptural references.

    “So god’s guys always win and his enemies always lose, is that what you’re saying ?”

    No, a quick glance at the Old Testament would have told you that God’s people can and do lose. What I am saying is that every action that God ordains to come to pass is for His Glory and is in accordance with His Will and the benefit of those saved from sin through Christ.

    Where did I say morality came from Christianity? I was meaning it is a better way than being exclusivist judge.

    And then to round it all off the personal comment at the end. So what did your post have to do with the Orange Order?

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitico

    “you are confusing providence with divine intervention”, they are two different (though related) things”.

    – I didn’t mention providence – you did. I’m not remotely confused about them, haven’t said anything which might suggest that I am confused. So why don’t you answer the question I asked ?

    “Saved from their sin through Christ. He has no need to save anyone as all have sinned but He has predestined some to eternal salvation and others to eternal damnation, it is not for man to know the ways of God’s election”

    – Saved FROM their sin ? Or do you mean forgiven after they’ve already sinned (contrary to His will even though he Created them with the express capacity to sin ?) ? Hasn’t quite found the time or muster the strength to bust up that nasty old devil yet then, huh ? Not much of an Almighty if you ask me, sounds like a mediocre type to me. A disappointment. Doesn’t sound worthy of much glory at all if you don’t mind me saying.

    “If it’s not for man to know the way’s of God’s election”

    – why do you pretend to know a single thing he wants, says, thinks or has planned for you ?

    “The victory of God over sin. It is perfectly coherent”.

    – What are the spoils of this victory ? What’s worth celebrating about a victory which causes you no strain over something you created for your own amusement in the first place ?

    “It is not my place to judge my creator”.

    – How deliciously falsely modest. Convenient too – Brucie bonus cop-out !

    “if God had not willed something to happen then it could not have happened”.

    – LOL; all part of the big plan, huh ? :-)

    “every action that God ordains to come to pass is for His Glory and is in accordance with His Will and the benefit of those saved from sin through Christ”.

    – Pure white noise, that. Seriously. Absolutely meaningless. Sorry.

    “what did your post have to do with the Orange Order?”

    – If you want to go into orangeism, let’s go guy. Can’t have you weaselling out of this quicksand you’ve created under your own feet re. Christianity first though, can we ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    nunoftheabove, people should be allowed to believe whatever they want. That is not what is at stake here.

    youngpolitico, I think it would help a hell of a lot if more Orangemen came out to explain what it is all about in the way that you have.

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    youngpolitico

    “you are confusing providence with divine intervention”, they are two different (though related) things”.

    Yes and I have repeatedly said that it was providence not divine intervention. I have answered your question… God does not intervene in any battle it is by providence through which he acts.

    Yes FROM as in the doctrine of justification. Well for a person to be saved “from their sin” it is quite clear that sin was present before their salvation otherwise why would they need saved?

    – Saved FROM their sin ? Or do you mean forgiven after they’ve already sinned (contrary to His will even though he Created them with the express capacity to sin ?) ? Hasn’t quite found the time or muster the strength to bust up that nasty old devil yet then, huh ? Not much of an Almighty if you ask me, sounds like a mediocre type to me. A disappointment. Doesn’t sound worthy of much glory at all if you don’t mind me saying.

    He created them in perfect freedom but through the fall of man they are bound to sin and have no free will. You are free to your opinion.

    “If it’s not for man to know the way’s of God’s election”

    – why do you pretend to know a single thing he wants, says, thinks or has planned for you? The Doctrine of Sola Scriptura and the use of the Holy Bible. I do not pretend to know anything of God’s mind except that which can be explicitly or logically deduced from Scripture.

    “The victory of God over sin. It is perfectly coherent”.

    – What are the spoils of this victory ? What’s worth celebrating about a victory which causes you no strain over something you created for your own amusement in the first place ?

    The spoils would be the Glory of God and the salvation of those saved in Christ. It is not for me to judge my creator or what he deems to be worth it and not worth it.

    “It is not my place to judge my creator”.

    – How deliciously falsely modest. Convenient too – Brucie bonus cop-out !

    I apologise if you took false modesty out of that, I am 21 years old and do not understand or judge the infinite God, I was merely acting in mind of Christ’ s answer to the Devil in Matthew 4:7. It is not my place to test my God and it is impossible for the finite human mind to fully comprehend the ways of an infinite God.

    “if God had not willed something to happen then it could not have happened”.

    – LOL; all part of the big plan, huh ?

    Yes that is the view of the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterian, Anglican and most other Christian churches – in accordance with Scripture.

    “every action that God ordains to come to pass is for His Glory and is in accordance with His Will and the benefit of those saved from sin through Christ”.

    – Pure white noise, that. Seriously. Absolutely meaningless. Sorry.

    It isn’t though. You are just choosing to deliberately ignore things.

    “what did your post have to do with the Orange Order?”

    – If you want to go into orangeism, let’s go guy. Can’t have you weaselling out of this quicksand you’ve created under your own feet re. Christianity first though, can we ?

    To be honest nunoftheabove, I really hate all this. I just wanted to come on and post and learn about others views so I could broaden my horizons as part of my theology course. You seem to be following me from thread to thread and calling me names or making out my faith is false. If I have offended you at any time I am profoundly sorry, truly. Others have commended me on my post on the Orange Order and even republished it on this site and to all of them I say thank you… but you seem to have taken my honest appraisal of the failings of the institution as a reason to launch into a broadside on my faith. I maybe shouldn’t have mentioned that I am Christian but with the Order being so often linked to Protestantism I felt it was acceptable. I didn’t realise that it would provoke such a reaction. Again I apologise if my faith has offended you or caused you to have a negative opinion of me.

  • Nunoftheabove

    youngpolitco

    I welcome the fact that you say what you think; I’m a supporter of free speech. Your positon on Orangeism is potentially interesting but for all your experences of them I can’t quite bring myself to wonder why you felt any obligation to them and why you wouldn’t bring yourself to feel that the more dignfied – principled, even – course of action was to cut all ties.

    I wish you’d embrace the opportunity of broadening your perspective through the medium of direct challenge; all we’re doing is exchanging views, nobody’s attacking anyone. I’ll defend my own corner but if you find my arguments preposterous then that’s your right – my back’s brioad enough, my skin thick enough. I swing a few, I connect occasionally, I get hit a few times. All part of the point. This site’s ok for that – it ain’t a nice-in.

    Your faith wouldn’t offend me or even bother me in the least and I will gladly stop minding the business of the religious if they stop minding mine. If they stop trying to legislate in accordance with their views, stop insisting on being respected for, in effect, beleving anything they’re told, stop trying to monopolize morality, stop beinng deferred to by a compliant media and basically just butt out of public life completely then I’ll drop it.

    I wish you well in your studies but just one piece of advice re. solo scriptura – if you study that properly you’ll find that ultimately it’s nothing more than a fancy way of saying that anybody can believe what they like and don’t believe anybody who tells you differently ;-)

    Bon chance

  • Drumlins Rock

    Politico, good to see your comments, hope these guys don’t scare you off, there is an unwritten rule to give new commentators a bit of space and I’m disappointed some aren’t observing it. Hope you stick with it, could do with a extra voice on here from our viewpoint, one bit of advice though, don’t give both barrels at once, you don’t have to answer every question or deal with every accusation, try to keep things on the topic discussed.

    PS one thing I would like to discuss with you is the relationship with the OO and the Ascendency, you are part right in your view, but I also believe it was a two way process, quite unique where the aristocracy was held to some sort of account by the Order.

  • lamhdearg

    i like the bands, (the music) the drums, primitive?.

  • http://www.a-wandering-pilgrim.blogspot.com youngpolitico

    nunoftheabove, thank you. I know what you mean with Sola Scriptura it has led to many divisions.

    Drumlins Rock thank you for your advice, you are quite correct to say that the order held the aristocracy to account at times. Certainly in the 1920-1972 period the order had major say over the UUP and thus the government of the day which was largely made up of the gentry. The power to get rid of prime ministers and the power to choose who got to go to parliament was a major boost to Orangeism. Prior to 1920 I’m not so sure anyone held grand lodge ascendancy to account but of course I could be wrong.