Osama Bin Laden killed in Pakistan

The BBC are reporting that Osama Bin Laden has been killed in a US special forces raid on a compound in Abbottabad, 60 miles north-east of Islamabad.

From the BBC:

After a “firefight” Bin Laden was killed and his body taken by US forces, the president said.
Mr Obama said “no Americans were harmed”.
US officials said Bin Laden was shot in the head after resisting.
US media reports said that the body was buried at sea to conform with Islamic practice of a burial within 24 hours and to prevent any grave becoming a shrine.
Giving more details of the raid, one senior US official said a small US team had conducted the attack in about 40 minutes.
Three other men were killed in the raid – one of Bin Laden’s sons and two couriers – the official said, adding that one woman was also killed when she was used as “a shield” and two other women were injured.
One helicopter was lost due to “technical failure”. The team destroyed it and left in its other aircraft.

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310 thoughts on “Osama Bin Laden killed in Pakistan”

  1. Aglasshalfempty…

    “Look,they tried to shoot him in the head to stun him,and take him prisoner. Unfortunately,this head wound proved fatal. Go figure.”

    That is mind boggling, the first time I have heard of a bullet in the head being used as an attempt to stun anyone.

  2. aglass

    Oh no, but it does have to be actual irony and not hot off the Fux News press….

  3. A separate question: what’s the bad news that is being buried today?

    Gerry and Marty insist on giving Osama a graveside oration !!

    Oops sorry,that’s still the good news list……;-)

  4. Meanwhile,the indignation emanating from our republican minded friends,is highly amusing.

    Indignation? Try fustration. You think im annoyed that Bin-Laden has met his maker? Afraid not. But neither am i going to cheer his passing. Not least because cheering death is something of a cudgel morons in the west have used to condemn those in the middle east with. But more than that. Because i know that US actions since 9/11 have only served to create who knows how many more Bin Ladens. Yet you can bet that the people cheering and dancing loudest at this latest death will put up the biggest resistance to bringing the young folks home they have sent off to die in foreign lands. Those treating Bin Laden’s elimination like some sports event will be those who refuse to accept that the West has a sordid history of interference and manipulation in the region they want to see turned into a carpark, and ignore the fact that maybe, just maybe, our own govts have helped create some of the problems we imagine ourselves to be completely blameless of. But hey, who gives a shit. Lets just keep dropping daisy cutters.

  5. jayjus pip,if you thought I was being serious there,you should have a humour gland check up !!! 😉

  6. A separate question: what’s the bad news that is being buried today?

    lol i told Mick to keep an eye on the by lines for next few days earlier today.

  7. RS

    Surely the good news is the Americans can now legitimately leave Afghanistan with no loss of, the all important, face, they went there to get Bin Laden, now they can go home.

  8. This flawed mentality is the product of self-justifying parochialism.

    Absolute nonsense. i know its in your interest to portray arabs and muslims as inherently demented and thus unreasonable. Afraid thats not the case. They are human, just like you and me and are occasionally driven to do bad things. Encouraged by a minority of men who cannot be reasoned with and are unreasonable. You may try to project as you wish Alias, but it ignores historical reality.

  9. All the Yanks knew about the Middle East,before 9/11 was Israel,pyramids Sadam and oil. ( and that was the educated ones )
    After 9/11 that kinda changed.
    Now I’m not saying Bin Laden should take any blame for 9/11,the so called war on terror,or hideously distorted audio and video messages,BUT if the sandal fits…………….

  10. Surely the good news is the Americans can now legitimately leave Afghanistan with no loss of, the all important, face, they went there to get Bin Laden, now they can go home.

    But will they leave? how many permanent bases will they have? What kind of constitution will they allow the Afghan govt to have.

    Remember also that the Taliban offered to surrender Bin Laden if proof could be presented that he was responsible for 9/11. That could have saved God knows how many lives and trillions of $$$. But the US refused. Some have suggested it had other interests in Afghanistan beside OBL.

  11. Republican Stones

    I wouldn’t even challenge the notion that some aspects of US policy have alienated some muslim opinion and nothing that I have said could reasonably be interpreted as implying that I have or would do. The key is their disenchantment with their own ailing states as the article to which you refer makes clear. After all, Bin Laden was relatively disinterested in Palestine for instance – regularly if not automatically held up as the commonest cause of ‘muslim grievance’ (the Iranian public isn’t buying that any more) – he and his base/basement crew were/are much more animated by Saudi Arabia.

    If it’s in the gift of anyone to persuade the street Arabs to not only stay out of the basement but to clear and padlock them it’s not only or even mainly western governments, it’s other Arabs. After all, the only deliberate targetting of muslim civilians going on in the middle east at the moment is being undertaken by…other muslims. We’re in for a lot more of that going forward irrespective of the west’s position. The guys in the basement aren’t the solution to the problems of the street, it’s other branches of their faith and the theocratic dictators and opportunists who rule them that have reduced their countries to an abject social and economic condition.

  12. If we leave Afghanistan now,the Taliban will take over again. Terrorist cells will thrive. Women will,once again,be reduced to little more than chattel.
    No,the good peoples of the Middle East are crying out for democracy. Dying for it,in fact.
    Premature withdrawal will only make the situation worse.

  13. After all, Bin Laden was relatively disinterested in Palestine for instance – regularly if not automatically held up as the commonest cause of ‘muslim grievance’ (the Iranian public isn’t buying that any more) – he and his base/basement crew were/are much more animated by Saudi Arabia.

    Another common fallacy repeated so often most believe it.

    As former CIA man Michael Scheuer put it

    “an exception to Osama’s well-mannered nonconfrontational demeanor was his support for the Palestinians and negative attitude towards the U.S. and Israel”

    One of Bin Laden’s first statements for widespread ciculation, back in 1994, addressed the palestinian issue.
    A specialist in Bin laden’s public pronouncements, Bruce lawrence has said

    “The letter makes it plain that Palestine far from being a late edition to Bin Laden’s agenda, was at the centre of it from the start.”

    Or this …

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/terror/main4102367.shtml

    You are simply rehashing AIPAC, Melanie Phillips talking points.

    If it’s in the gift of anyone to persuade the street Arabs to not only stay out of the basement but to clear and padlock them it’s not only or even mainly western governments, it’s other Arabs,/i>

    Wouldn’t it be easier for them to do so, if the West quit interfering in Arab affairs? Whats the first thing western leaders did when the arab spring uprising reared its head? Sarkozy offered help to ben-Ali to put down Tunisian uprising. US VP Joe Biden refused to call Mubarak a dictator and Cameron jumped on a plane with his mates from the arms industries. The idea that we shouldn’t change our behaviour vis-a-vis the middle east is ridiculous.

  14. That is mind boggling, the first time I have heard of a bullet in the head being used as an attempt to stun anyone.

    They shot him a second time to make sure he was dead.

    The news networks are now reporting it was an assassination mission, there was no intention to take him prisoner.

  15. “i know its in your interest to portray arabs and muslims as inherently demented and thus unreasonable.”

    On the contrary, it is to protray them as rational. You seek to protray them as animals who are driven by a primitive instinct that compels them to kill others whenever they feel a bit hard done by. In your self-justifying world, terrorism is a valid response to the shortcomings of a state.

    Much like the good folks in NI, it should be remembered that only a tiny fraction of them enaged in terrorism. What about the other 99% who did not feel that engaging in a sectarian murder camapign was a valid response to the shortcomings of the state?

    The 99% must be the irrational people in your world because you believe that the 1% of demented thugs were justified in their ‘response’ and therefore the non-violent 99% were not.

    So, if terrorism is so “understandable” a response, why do only a tiny minority of those feel hard done engage in it? Surely if it is legitimate, more would engage in it? In the general population, something like 2.5% are psychopathic. So you will always have the utter loons who look for any excuse to engage in what their particular malfunction compels them to engage in. There is no point blaming others for what these folks do.

    Bin Laden was, not to put too fine a point on it, a sick fuck. And while you might like to ‘understand and sympathise’ with him, he’d just like to cut your balls off and then make you eat them, infidel.

    So I wouldn’t worry about legalities and human rights in the demise of Mr Bin Laden since he never worried about them and neither do his supporters or those who support terrorism. This is a fine example of where its use will save countless lives, and I commend it and Obama for using it.

    Assassination is a pragmatic policy, and there are many examples in history where it should have been used (such as Hitler) but wasn’t. That is simply because the leaders in war time have a very polite and self-serving policy of not killing each other, so it serves the elite but not the common man.

  16. Did anyone think for one moment that it could have ever ended other than this way ?

    If Ben laden was taken prisoner the US public would have insisted on an open spectacle trial and Ben would tell all he knew about insider politics before he fell out with the CIA and US. It was not so much a few skeletons in the wardrobe as a whole colossal graveyard full of them !

    Like so many in the North who had worked for the Counter Insurgency, who knew too many State secrets regarding operations and who also ended up dead in controversial circumstances, he too could not have simply been allowed to talk to tell his story.

    Even if he was taken out of there alive any bets that the chopper carrying him would have not slammed into a mountain. ‘Accidents’ like this have been known to happen you know where personnel associated with discarded policies are themselves permanently discarded to make room for changed policies and politics once they have outlived their usefulness.

    There was ever only going to be one ending to this saga it the US caught up with him and time was the only variable !

  17. Republican Stones

    It’s not a misconception; he may have used it from time to time for purely demagogic reasons but look at the totality of what we know Bin Laden said and what he did – Palestine was not a priority, that’s clear. You’re spending too much time on moveon.org, friend.

    If you have the idea in your head that I have suggested that we shouldn’t change our behaviour vis-a-vis the middle east then I’m not responsible for putting it there.

  18. “If not, as I suspect ( for the obvious reason that Paki Intel was working hand in glove with Ben Laden) then the security and sovereign of an independent country and member of the UN was unilaterally breached.”

    From O’Connell, in International Law, second edition, page 303:

    Article 2 (4) of the United Nations Charter should be interpreted as prohibiting acts of force against the territorial integrity and political independence of nations, and not to prohibit a use of force which is limited in intention and effect to the protection of a state’s own integrity and its nationals’ vital interests, when the machinery envisaged by the United Nations Charter is ineffective in the situation.

    Presumably, you aware that the singular vital interest for the American citizen, me included, is our very lives. As you otherwise must acknowledge, 9/11 concerned the commission of multiple acts of air piracy. As you must also acknowledge, since the dawn of international law in the Middle Ages, pirates have been described and accordingly treated as hostis humani generis aka enemies of the human race. Given your frank admission of Pakistan’s complicity in harboring pirates, O’Connell supplies the answer here, with the cherry on top being that he sounds like a good Irish lad.

    By the way, for what no one has mentioned yet, so query the political acumen of some, more than a few, the big winners here are India. As now they get say to the world, See, we told you all that Pakistan harbors pirates and terrorists. No doubt India will have less dissent against its future conduct when dealing with Pakistan in relation to Kashmir, etc. As an American I would like to thank Osama & Co for making our relations with India ever more the friendly. Since you are old enough, you will remember the days when India-US relations were rather chilled. Not so over the last decade, and so now we even engage in joint war games with our Indian friends. This affair can only serve to warm the relationship all the more. And so thank you again, Osama & Co., for making our friendly relations with India possible. Mission accomplished, Osama.

    Stones:

    In your quintessential anti-Americanism you’ll need to do better than Brian Lawrence. Religious studies professors who believe that the Osama “confession” tapes are fake are hardly a reputable and worthy source. Here is Osama’s letter to America, which Lawrence does not dispute:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

    The Israel/Palestine tripe is window dressing for the disaffected Muslim male youth. The jihad is, as described:

    (i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.
    ***
    As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

    (1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.
    ***
    (2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

    (a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling’s, and trading with interest.

    We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

    (b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

    (i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

    (ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

    (iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

    (iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

    Who can forget your President Clinton’s immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he ‘made a mistake’, after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

    v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

    (vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

    (vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

    (viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

    xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

    (x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

    (xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

    So, he was a patent Jew-hater who also credited America with creating AIDS. And never mind that when we dropped the bomb on Hiroshima and then Nagasaki, the Japanese cabinet was still divided 3-3 when it came to accepting Potsdam. The three dissenters wished to hold out until the bitter and bloody end. As history records, took the unprecedented intervention of Hirohito to end the deadlock.

    I’ll otherwise leave you to discern how the concept of mutah (temporary marriage) in Islam squares with his critique of fornication. Apparently, caravan raiding with one-sided temporary marriages to make rape legal are one thing (that’s the historical context of the initiation of the institution or practice), while mere consensual sexual relations outside of marriage are another thing aka a damning fornication. Only the likes of you and Professor Lawrence could fail to see the ugly in Osama and in Islam.

    The other good news is that the recent move towards new regime in Arab lands is not a move towards Islam and sharia. So even his own people are saying “f you, Osama”. You’d think there’d be a lesson there for the anti-American crowd that you are part of, but, observing the indisputable does not appear to be one of the movement’s strong points.

    Next, you’ve no doubt seen the murals of your Palestinian Arab terrorist friends on the wall there. With that in mind let me borrow from the late Chaim Herzog, from his address before the UN Security Council in July 1976, following the IDF’s raid on the Entebbe Airport in Uganda:

    In the course of all these discussions some delegations have tended to ignore the group which organized this hijacking, namely, the PLO…They were the group which, according to the President of Sudan, Yassir Arafat personally instructed to execute the American and Belgian diplomats [George Moore, Cleo Noel, Jr., and Guy Eid] in the Saudi Arabian Embassy in Khartoum in 1973. The PLO’s policy is a matter of record. It is one based on the most brutal terrorism, in the course of which attacks have been made upon innocent people, including unsuspecting women and children. These gangs have cut down pregnant women in cold blood in Kiryat Shmona, have shot Olympic athletes bound hand and foot, have hijacked planes, have engaged in open assassination, have held small schoolchildren hostage in Maalot causing the death of over 20 children and over 60 wounded. These are the same individuals who tried to impose a reign of terror on the Palestinian Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, killing cold-bloodedly those suspected of not agreeing with them. These are the same individuals who planned the assassination of the Heads of five Arab States at Rabat in 1974. Fourteen members of the PLO were then arrested by Morocco. These are members of the same organization which executed in the most cowardly manner Wasfi Tal, the Prime Minister of Jordan, during a visit to Cairo. One of the assassins, not content with shooting the Prime Minister in the back, felt obliged to drink his blood publicly on the steps of the Sheraton Hotel in Cairo. These are the same people who on 31 January 1974 sabotaged the oil installations in Singapore. These are the same people who gained control of the Egyptian Embassy in Madrid and held three members of the staff, including the ambassador, as hostages. These are the same people who murdered American and Belgian diplomats in Khartoum in 1973. These are the same people who have been instrumental in destroying the Lebanese State, tearing it apart while this Council remains silent, killing tens of thousands and wounding thousands of others. These are the terrorists who kidnapped and held as hostages the ministers attending the OPEC conference in Vienna and were then released by the Government of Algeria in an act which constituted a blatant condoning of the criminal terror acts of that group. From there they proceeded to Libya, where they were greeted and embraced by Prime Minister Jalloud of Libya, the same terrorists who had shot one of Libya’s citizens a day before in Vienna. These are the people who have brought misery, murder and assassination to the area of the Middle East and who have introduced terrorism as a form of international idiom–terrorism which affects innocent people wherever they may be.

    So a little late in the day for your faux outrage, as rather wholly misguided the same otherwise is.

    Now to end with for our non-apology [channeling my inner Chaim again]:

    I wish to reiterate on this occasion that [America] accepts full and sole responsibility for the action, that no other Government was at any stage party to the planning or the execution of the operation. The operation was planned and executed by [America]. We are proud of it.

  19. Good call Munster………….yet I pointed out that obvious conclusion on page One of this very thread !!
    There was no way Osama was ever going to bask in the publicity of a trial,no sirree. Then there was the delicate problem of the death sentence,and carrying it out.
    Far from there being a ‘firefight’,Mr Osama was more than likely cowering on his knees,hands raised to allah,screaming,begging,imploring mercy.
    He got it,and a damn sight quicker than having your head hacked off with a knife !!
    Osama,you idiot,you awakened the sleeping giant,and got squished. Happy now fella ? Well,are ya ?? Huh ?

    Shoot to kill……..it hasn’t gone away ya know.

  20. Fantasies of world domination, a philosphy that trancends the need to work hard in the physical world or deal with women as equals, and the face of a woman. A great virtual best friend for ignorant young males with bad prospects. Being scolded and threatened by him at a trial would have been tedious, but heating about the CIA’s use of this spare rich kid would have been interesting. RIP

  21. Munsterview: and Ben would tell all he knew about insider politics before he fell out with the CIA and US. It was not so much a few skeletons in the wardrobe as a whole colossal graveyard full of them !
    He has had ten years already to do that. But didn’t.

  22. Bin Laden is dead as Julius Caesar.

    You can believe that he was created by the CIA, you can claim that he was a misguided freedom fighter, the facts of course are that each man choses his actions. One no forced him to commit actions of widespread global terrorism – each man decides what he will do guided by his own morality. We have seen that first hand in Northern Ireland.

    He was a terrorist and despite some republicans whining here; I nearly thought some of them might use the old favourite,

    ‘We do not believe in the politics of condemnation’ -which is of course code for:

    ‘we think its fine but just can’t say it out loud’

    Would you have expected less? ‘Ex’ terrorists seem to have a certain empathy with other terrorists…

    Anyway he’s dead and the world is a safer place because of it. People are happy that he’s dead – I have no problem with that.

  23. Slappy….

    Sorry I tried reading your post without laughing and failed miserably, but I did however stop smirking at this line.

    Osama blamed the USA for creating AIDS……

    Well guess what…. he was as accurate as be damned there, spot on, nail on the head, 100% correct.

    Anyone who does not think that AIDS crawled from a test-tube in an American Military funded laboratory in Germany is either a Racist or too stupid to have an opinion.
    There has been enough lines of evidence, botched attempts at covering paper trails and open admissions to the House of Representatives by Military Chiefs seeking funding for biological virus’s as weapons that can target individual races such as ethnic Russians, Chinese, Latino or Black to lay the blame on the right doorstep.

    Your heads just perked up hasn’t it? You’re thinking that’s a lot of crap because we all know it was Black men climbing trees to fuck green monkeys that caused AIDS.
    You’re not alone if you believe this a lot of the Klan do!

  24. orc

    That virus they invented,you know the one,incessant whinging and mopery,must be the most successful trait ever to inhabit irish republicans.

    Oh you sneaky CIA scientists. Are we to be plagued with listening to this for ever ?
    😉

  25. Henry 94,
    “It is impossible to feel sorry when a mass-murderer gets whacked and I believe America was well within its rights to do so. It was a settling of accounts and a symbolic act.”
    I agree. So hopefully that’s the end also of any complaints about terrorists biting the dust here. Perhaps Republicans can now understand the reaction of the rest of us to incidents like Gibraltar and the Hunger Strikes. But like Sands et al, Bin Laden will be a martyr to his deluded followers and will continue to inspire hatred and terror long after his death. Such is the legacy of a terrorist’s life. Nothing good comes of it.

  26. Mainland Ulsterman,

    So I take it you don’t believe that he will sit at the left hand of the Father then.

    On this thread there is a lot of open hostility being shown for the most inspirational man since Martin Luther King and I can’t see any rational explanation as to why, just innuendo and racialism.

  27. Slappy : “…“If not, as I suspect ( for the obvious reason that Paki Intel was working hand in glove with Ben Laden) then the security and sovereign of an independent country and member of the UN was unilaterally breached.”

    Slappy Can I start by putting this on record, I am not ‘anti- American’, it gave a home to one of my aunts and two of my uncles, their families are American, it gave a home to several of my grandaunts and uncles and to numerous cousins and neighbors of my own generation In regard to America I cannot better Behans words when he was asked at a formal dinned to propose a toast to the City Of New York….. ” Here is to New York, the man that hates you hates the human race ” The same can apply to the US as a whole.

    It was the first worlds Republic in the modern era and for all its imperfections, it is still the template for that form of government. Had I not been involved in Republican politics here, I would probably have gone there to work and live for a few years. I am however very much anti-American foreign policies and their activities in South America, in the Mid-East and in Asia.

    The States could have gone in with schools, hospitals, clinics, deepwell pumps and other infrastructure, many such things at the lower end of the scale such as wells and clinics costing far less than a drone remote controlled missile.

    Which is more likely to win hearts and minds a car load of Hamas blown up by a US supplied Israeli missile in a crowded town or a clinic with a couple of doctors helping two hundred young people a day. The answer to that is obvious, obvious to all but the ‘geniuses’ in the State Department it would seem.

    For those of us with goodwill towards the United States peoples, watching US foreign Policy is it is like watching a family member ‘on the booze’ blundering from one calamity to another and leaving a trail of disaster in their wake for somebody else, usually their shattered victims, to pick up the pieces !

    In this regard we come to the nub of the situation, as amply disclosed and portrayed in ” Charlie’s War’ the US through the CIA and a coterie of right wing fanatics back in the States, build up and made Ben Laden and others like him. Any half political literate journalist with Mid-East experience knew how conservative and extremist Saudi Arabia was and is in Religion and political ethos, yet Ben Laden made no secret that he considered that regime ‘too soft’ and nor fundamentalist enough for his politics and vision of society.

    While the Bold Ben was blowing up Soviet schools and hospitals, clinics and punishing women and driving them out of the professions and who, because of male involvement in the wars, supplied most of the infra structure personnel, Ben was just fine and dandy! While he was blowing up Soviet conscript troops who had no choice about joining the Soviet Army serving in Afghanistan with US supplied ordinance, he was also sizing up and planning how to come to grips with ‘The Great Satan’ of the West as personified by the US and it’s values.

    The US made this Frankinstien and have allowed the festering sore of the Palestine peoples poison Mid-East and International politics for over half a century. Since much of the missile and other ordinance fragments recovered by Palestinians after yet another Israeli strike from unseen drone planes have US markings, it is not difficult for Palestinians to come to the conclusion that it is the US that is bombing them.

    And somebody like you cannot understand then why a Palestinian should regard an American Serviceman as you regarded Ben Landen ?

    Now Slappy we come to the whole Pakistani mess that I referred to earlier. All through the anti-Soviet period the CIA worked hand in glove with the Paki -Intel and both used Ben Laden and others like him to implement their murderous, genocidal policies. It was perfectly obvious to the rest of the world and indeed to plenty US national commentators that this ‘sowing the wind’ would sooner or later ‘reap the whirlwind’

    All impartial, informed World opinion know that Islam is moving right-wing and fundamentalist. my people left farm and village poverty and went to England and the US to make new life’s for themselves, some just four generations from the bogs of Munster are well up the Sunday Times Millionaire Rich list. All made the most of their opportunity but they also gave back aplenty : one relative a doctor and catholic had his entirely protestant city council turn out to his funeral in full robes of office to honor his lifetime service to the poor of that city where he made his life.

    His children went on to become leading members of the UK medical profession as did his grandchildren. In the US likewise I can list off near relatives and women at that made it to the top of US International corporations. In both the UK and America all these relatives are very much identified with and part of their communities, professional and local. They have a gratitude towards the country and society that gave them the opportunity.

    When in London I source much of my computer and electronic equipment from moslems of Mid-Eastern origin. I got to know quite a few of them personally and because of my own politics that talk freely. Here we have successful business people, well housed, freely educated and availing of medical and other services that their relatives back in the Mid-East could only dream of, yet they are totally alienated from and actually detest the UK government as they do the US all because of the Festering sore of the Palestine situation.

    I am not the slightest bit surprised by ‘Islamic terrorism’ in the UK, my only surprise is that it is so limited, disorganized and infrequent ! In the US the melting pot is working a bit better, first generation Moslems are not alienated against the US in a way their British counterparts are, but there is still hurt and pain about what is happening in their homelands. That ethos too, as I well know from the ‘Nor-Aid’ experience can be harnessed for other ends.

    Slappy for decades now the US is without a moral compass in International relations, it has not done what was right, it has done what was expedient and dictated by a bunch of Washington and ‘Beltway’ insiders that were unrepresentative of the intentions or finer impulses of the American peoples as a whole.

    This latest assassination of Ben Laden is more of the stupidity. He was an old, sick, incapacitated man of little influence that was on finite time, who would have quietly died and slipped under the radar of history. Instead he is now emblazoned before the Islamic world as a murdered martyr and we of all people in this island now the potency of such symbols as indeed you should Slappy.

    So slappy have your celebration for a well planed and executed operation but to paraphrase Yeaths, out on the desert sands ‘a rough beast slouches towards a Bethlehem to be born’ !

    The assassination /execution of Ben Laden was not closure on anything, on the contrary in my humble opinion “God is good….Ben Laden is avenged” is the last thing many an American ear will hear, if they could understand the language, before they too are send to the same earthly oblivion that the seal execution squad send Ben Laden to.

  28. Hindsight a wonderful tool for those who wish to rewrite history to match their ideology, bin lid was a sectarian terrorist it’s a pity more weren’t dealt with in the same way.

  29. From the Hoffington Post : a reflection of the many sane US voices we do not normally hear!

    Article abstract

    …… “A decade ago we watched people we knew or might have known hurtle to their deaths from a landmark building. Someone had to pay.

    The trouble is that we ourselves paid as a nation. And we have kept paying even as the price has climbed to impossible heights, via disastrous choices made in anger and vengeance more than reason and enlightened self-interest. We rushed into Afghanistan without the will to remake it. We embarked on an unnecessary war in Iraq, chasing the phantom of our national fears. We squandered our treasure on ill-conceived military misadventures just as we needed it most here at home, to rebuild our schools and invest in productive industries that might put people back to work……”

    Full article….
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/02/osamas-legacy-american-drift_n_856365.html

  30. ……on the other hand,the good peoples of the Middle East are showing untold bravery in demanding democracy.
    Dictators around the globe are being challenged by brave men and women,ready to lay down their lives for freedom.
    Ordinary working class people,that Bin laden used as missiles of terror.
    The Hoffington Post ( and irish republicans ) likes to blether and bluster…..and do nothing !!
    Doing nothing is not an option.
    Yes,the irish republic does indeed have soldiers in Iraq ( all 6 of them,doing desk jobs).
    As far as I can see,the only people mourning Bin Ladens execution are religious fanatics,desperate to hold onto their power of subjugation,( and irish republicans ).
    In all honesty,I can’t say I’m surprised…..

  31. Eight Ben Laden related articles on ‘The Nation’ that may be of interest

    NEW AT THENATION.COM

  32. It is appropriate Bin Laden died at this time.

    The last 5 months in the middle east have seen his movement, his dream of a united caliphate living under 8th century Islamic law, utterly destroyed. It was not by American guns (although they surely would never let that caliphate take place if it ever had a chance or support of the people-which it never did) or economic improvement or a new more moderate form of Islam, but by the people themselves. The youth, the various tribes, the various Islamic sects, all of them took to the streets and demanded change. A more thorough rejection of the idea of a small, self sacrificing, fanatical Islamic revolutionary elite leading the way to a new era could not have been written up any better.

    Al Queda will limp on in it’s disparate forms across part of the world, but whatever resonance it had amongst Islamic youth belongs to a bygone era. There were still be individuals with personal, social, economic, of pyschological issues who are attracted to it’s narrow view in order to legitimize their life, but it is finished.

  33. In your quintessential anti-Americanism….

    Nice try Slapp. But as MV points out, a rather childish argument. One employed quite noticibly by those on the American and right and their fans. Do we hear of people being labelled anti-french for being criticial of Sarkozy offering support to Ben-Ali to put down the Tunisian uprising? Do we call those who highlight Chinese human rights abuses, ‘anti-chinese’? Of course not. But oppose US govt policies, and the fact you love music and movies, literature and indeed sports which originate from there, does not matter. You are ‘anti-american’. Its a cynical overused tactic, which allows supporters of various odious US govt policies to side-step the issues and facts raised and infer those highlighting the immorality of certain US actions, are not motivated by morals, but just by hate for all things ‘American’. It a tactic we see used with regard to another country. A non-arab country in the middle east. Although there the inference carries with it an altogether more biblical overtone. But, water off a ducks back. Im anti-american for opposing and highlighting undoubetedly objectionable policies and tactics? So be it. All you simply do is make it therefore a moral imperative to be ‘Anti-American’, not your desired result, but the logical conclusion of your silly little ploy.

    And btw Slapp i suggest you read up on what other experts say about some of those Bin Laden tapes. The fact he has been living comfortably in Pakistan, kinda raises questions about the paucity of video tapes in the intervening years as well. Those of us well accustomed to US propaganda, need only recall the likes of the ‘Nariyah testimony’ among a veritable treasure trove of others, which helps us to err on the side of caution. You may disagree.

    The Israel/Palestine tripe is window dressing for the disaffected Muslim male youth.

    Really? Slapp did you think nobody would click on your link? Pray tell why did you leave this part out ? If you seek to claim that the plight of the Palestinians isn’t a central theme of Arab anger at Western govts, you would have more chance of being successful (and looking honest) if you didn’t to decide to link to a letter where it is indeed a central issue, but decide to edit that out from your cut and paste.Lets look at the part of Bin Laden’s screed you omitted….

    (1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

    a) You attacked us in Palestine:

    (i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

    (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

    When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) – and we make no distinction between them.

    (iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.

    Quite a lot about Palestine there. Yet you only claim Bin Laden is concerned with what suits your narrative, but decide to leave out that which doesn’t suit 😉

    The letter you cite from Bin Laden, is indeed quite clear on Palestine being an issue. But for some reason you chose to leave it out. Bin laden was one of those who appeals to those in the Arab street, hoping to entice them into the basement. You seem to think he does that by talking about issues which have no resonace with young arabs/muslims.
    You’re not the only one on this thread Slapp to try and claim Palestine isn’t a big issue of arab dissafection with West. Just like the Arab leaders, who yes, they do use the Palestine issue to deflect attention from their own nefarious rule. But to think they are able to do that by appealing to something which is not rooted in genuine popular sentiment is one he’ll of a magic trick. The fact of the matter is, however uncomfortable it may be for you and Alias, that the issue of Palestine is one which IS rooted in genuine popular sentiment among ordinary Arabs and Muslims. You must have some decision to make come elction time, if you think Politicians curry favour with the electorate by NOT appealing to popular sentiment.

    Unfortunately for those who would have us believe that the average arab is not concerned with Israel/Palestine issue. The facts don’t agree. As a recent pew poll from Egypt, showed…

    http://pewglobal.org/2011/04/25/egyptians-embrace-revolt-leaders-religious-parties-and-military-as-well/5/

    Egyptians appear prepared to overturn the three-decade-old peace agreement that has been a cornerstone of the country’s relationship with Israel. By a margin of 54% to 36%, Egyptians say their country should annul the treaty with Israel. One-in-ten offer no definite opinion.’

    I guess the fact that Mubarak’s cronies are facing trial in Egypt for selling gas to Israel at favourable prices, isn’t indicative of anything either…right?

    http://yourjewishnews.com/5709.aspx

    And the fact that Slapp tries to claim…

    The other good news is that the recent move towards new regime in Arab lands is not a move towards Islam and sharia. So even his own people are saying “f you, Osama”. You’d think there’d be a lesson there for the anti-American crowd that you are part of, but, observing the indisputable does not appear to be one of the movement’s strong points.

    Shows he hasn’t really researched events in the arb uprisings. Poll after all poll shows anti-american sentiment, but one does not have to move toward the odiousness of Bin Laden’s camp to express such sentiment. however much you’d like to claim the two are inter-linked.

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/04/26/egypt/index.html

    Oh and Slapp, im well aware of the brutality of the various Palestinian factions, but by supporting the Israeli govt, you make a clown out of yourself with the following…

    It is one based on the most brutal terrorism, in the course of which attacks have been made upon innocent people, including unsuspecting women and children.

    Do we need to go down the sordid history of zionism’s and Israels murderous past. Shall we examine the various odious tactics employed by your beloved IDF. From the rather delightful littany of massacres throughout its history, to modern conceptions such as the very interesting ‘Dahiya Doctrine’. Truly ‘purity of arms’ on show from ‘the most moral army in the world’. And ohhhh…those wonderful ‘technologies of warning’ the IDF uses, which can turn a civilian into a combatant….as Tommy Cooper use to say…”Just like that”

    “The people who go into a house despite a warning do not have to be taken into account in terms of injury to civilians, because they are voluntary human shields. From the legal point of view, [once warned] I do not have to show consideration for them. In the case of people who return to their home in order to protect it, they are taking part in the fighting.”

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/legislative-attack

    Isn’t it great to be able to not target civilians simply by turning them into combatants…in your mind. Of course those arabs are just CRAZZZZY for not leaving their houses when instructed. Those of us with a decent grasp of the history realise however that some of those people are being ordered to do so by the very same army which has ethnically cleansed them from other parts of Israel/Palestine at least once, perhaps two or three times before. And the IDF is surprised they don’t leave their homes when ordered????

  34. In your quintessential anti-Americanism….

    Nice try Slapp. But as MV points out, a rather childish argument. One employed quite noticibly by those on the American and right and their fans. Do we hear of people being labelled anti-french for being criticial of Sarkozy offering support to Ben-Ali to put down the Tunisian uprising? Do we call those who highlight Chinese human rights abuses, ‘anti-chinese’? Of course not. But oppose US govt policies, and the fact you love music and movies, literature and indeed sports which originate from there, does not matter. You are ‘anti-american’. Its a cynical overused tactic, which allows supporters of various odious US govt policies to side-step the issues and facts raised and infer those highlighting the immorality of certain US actions, are not motivated by morals, but just by hate for all things ‘American’. It a tactic we see used with regard to another country. A non-arab country in the middle east. Although there the inference carries with it an altogether more biblical overtone. But, water off a ducks back. Im anti-american for opposing and highlighting undoubetedly objectionable policies and tactics? So be it. All you simply do is make it therefore a moral imperative to be ‘Anti-American’, not your desired result, but the logical conclusion of your silly little ploy.

    And btw Slapp i suggest you read up on what other experts say about some of those Bin Laden tapes. The fact he has been living comfortably in Pakistan, kinda raises questions about the paucity of video tapes in the intervening years as well. Those of us well accustomed to US propaganda, need only recall the likes of the ‘Nariyah testimony’ among a veritable treasure trove of others, which helps us to err on the side of caution. You may disagree.

    The Israel/Palestine tripe is window dressing for the disaffected Muslim male youth.

    Really? Slapp did you think nobody would click on your link? Pray tell why did you leave this part out ? If you seek to claim that the plight of the Palestinians isn’t a central theme of Arab anger at Western govts, you would have more chance of being successful (and looking honest) if you didn’t to decide to link to a letter where it is indeed a central issue, but decide to edit that out from your cut and paste.Lets look at the part of Bin Laden’s screed you omitted….

    “(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

    a) You attacked us in Palestine:

    (i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

    (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.

    When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) – and we make no distinction between them.

    (iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.”

    Quite a lot about Palestine there. Yet you only claim Bin Laden is concerned with what suits your narrative, but decide to leave out that which doesn’t suit

    The letter you cite from Bin Laden, is indeed quite clear on Palestine being an issue. But for some reason you chose to leave it out. Bin laden was one of those who appeals to those in the Arab street, hoping to entice them into the basement. You seem to think he does that by talking about issues which have no resonace with young arabs/muslims.
    You’re not the only one on this thread Slapp to try and claim Palestine isn’t a big issue of arab dissafection with West. Just like the Arab leaders, who yes, they do use the Palestine issue to deflect attention from their own nefarious rule. But to think they are able to do that by appealing to something which is not rooted in genuine popular sentiment is one he’ll of a magic trick. The fact of the matter is, however uncomfortable it may be for you and Alias, that the issue of Palestine is one which IS rooted in genuine popular sentiment among ordinary Arabs and Muslims. You must have some decision to make come elction time, if you think Politicians curry favour with the electorate by NOT appealing to popular sentiment.

    Unfortunately for those who would have us believe that the average arab is not concerned with Israel/Palestine issue. The facts don’t agree. As a recent pew poll from Egypt, showed…

    http://pewglobal.org/2011/04/25/egyptians-embrace-revolt-leaders-religious-parties-and-military-as-well/5/

    ‘Egyptians appear prepared to overturn the three-decade-old peace agreement that has been a cornerstone of the country’s relationship with Israel. By a margin of 54% to 36%, Egyptians say their country should annul the treaty with Israel. One-in-ten offer no definite opinion.’

    I guess the fact that Mubarak’s cronies are facing trial in Egypt for selling gas to Israel at favourable prices, isn’t indicative of anything either…right?

    http://yourjewishnews.com/5709.aspx

    And the fact that Slapp tries to claim…

    The other good news is that the recent move towards new regime in Arab lands is not a move towards Islam and sharia. So even his own people are saying “f you, Osama”. You’d think there’d be a lesson there for the anti-American crowd that you are part of, but, observing the indisputable does not appear to be one of the movement’s strong points.

    Shows he hasn’t really researched events in the arb uprisings. Poll after all poll shows anti-american sentiment, but one does not have to move toward the odiousness of Bin Laden’s camp to express such sentiment. however much you’d like to claim the two are inter-linked.

    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/04/26/egypt/index.html

    Oh and Slapp, im well aware of the brutality of the various Palestinian factions, but by supporting the Israeli govt, you make a clown out of yourself with the following…

    It is one based on the most brutal terrorism, in the course of which attacks have been made upon innocent people, including unsuspecting women and children.

    Do we need to go down the sordid history of zionism’s and Israels murderous past. Shall we examine the various odious tactics employed by your beloved IDF. From the rather delightful littany of massacres throughout its history, to modern conceptions such as the very interesting ‘Dahiya Doctrine’. Truly ‘purity of arms’ on show from ‘the most moral army in the world’. And ohhhh…those wonderful ‘technologies of warning’ the IDF uses, which can turn a civilian into a combatant….as Tommy Cooper use to say…”Just like that”

    “The people who go into a house despite a warning do not have to be taken into account in terms of injury to civilians, because they are voluntary human shields. From the legal point of view, [once warned] I do not have to show consideration for them. In the case of people who return to their home in order to protect it, they are taking part in the fighting.”

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/legislative-attack

    Isn’t it great to be able to not target civilians simply by turning them into combatants…in your mind. Of course those arabs are just CRAZZZZY for not leaving their houses when instructed. Those of us with a decent grasp of the history realise however that some of those people are being ordered to do so by the very same army which has ethnically cleansed them from other parts of Israel/Palestine at least once, perhaps two or three times before. And the IDF is surprised they don’t leave their homes when ordered????

  35. In your quintessential anti-Americanism….
     
    Nice try Slapp. But as MV points out, a rather childish argument. One employed quite noticibly by those on the American and right and their fans. Do we hear of people being labelled anti-french for being criticial of Sarkozy offering support to Ben-Ali to put down the Tunisian uprising? Do we call those who highlight Chinese human rights abuses, ‘anti-chinese’? Of course not. But oppose US govt policies, and the fact you love music and movies, literature and indeed sports which originate from there, does not matter. You are ‘anti-american’. Its a cynical overused tactic, which allows supporters of various odious US govt policies to side-step the issues and facts raised and infer those highlighting the immorality of certain US actions, are not motivated by morals, but just by hate for all things ‘American’. It a tactic we see used with regard to another country. A non-arab country in the middle east. Although there the inference carries with it an altogether more biblical overtone. But, water off a ducks back. Im anti-american for opposing and highlighting undoubetedly objectionable policies and tactics? So be it. All you simply do is make it therefore a moral imperative to be ‘Anti-American’, not your desired result, but the logical conclusion of your silly little ploy.
     
    And btw Slapp i suggest you read up on what other experts say about some of those Bin Laden tapes. The fact he has been living comfortably in Pakistan, kinda raises questions about the paucity of video tapes in the intervening years as well. Those of us well accustomed to US propaganda, need only recall the likes of the ‘Nariyah testimony’ among a veritable treasure trove of others, which helps us to err on the side of caution. You may disagree. in any event, Lawrence has collected all of Bin Laden’s public statements and is able to declare palestine as being a central issue. Straw men of yours aside.
     
    The Israel/Palestine tripe is window dressing for the disaffected Muslim male youth.
     
    Really? Slapp did you think nobody would click on your link? Pray tell why did you leave this part out ? If you seek to claim that the plight of the Palestinians isn’t a central theme of Arab anger at Western govts, you would have more chance of being successful (and looking honest) if you didn’t to decide to link to a letter where it is indeed a central issue, but decide to edit that out from your cut and paste.Lets look at the part of Bin Laden’s screed you omitted….
     
    “(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.
    a) You attacked us in Palestine:
    (i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years. The British handed over Palestine, with your help and your support, to the Jews, who have occupied it for more than 50 years; years overflowing with oppression, tyranny, crimes, killing, expulsion, destruction and devastation. The creation and continuation of Israel is one of the greatest crimes, and you are the leaders of its criminals. And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.
    (ii) It brings us both laughter and tears to see that you have not yet tired of repeating your fabricated lies that the Jews have a historical right to Palestine, as it was promised to them in the Torah. Anyone who disputes with them on this alleged fact is accused of anti-semitism. This is one of the most fallacious, widely-circulated fabrications in history. The people of Palestine are pure Arabs and original Semites. It is the Muslims who are the inheritors of Moses (peace be upon him) and the inheritors of the real Torah that has not been changed. Muslims believe in all of the Prophets, including Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon them all. If the followers of Moses have been promised a right to Palestine in the Torah, then the Muslims are the most worthy nation of this.
    When the Muslims conquered Palestine and drove out the Romans, Palestine and Jerusalem returned to Islaam, the religion of all the Prophets peace be upon them. Therefore, the call to a historical right to Palestine cannot be raised against the Islamic Ummah that believes in all the Prophets of Allah (peace and blessings be upon them) – and we make no distinction between them.
    (iii) The blood pouring out of Palestine must be equally revenged. You must know that the Palestinians do not cry alone; their women are not widowed alone; their sons are not orphaned alone.”

     
    Quite a lot about Palestine contained in his diatribe…wouldn’t you say? Yet you only claim Bin Laden is concerned with what suits your narrative, but decide to leave out that which doesn’t suit 
    The letter you cite from Bin Laden, is indeed quite clear on Palestine being an issue. But for some reason you chose to leave it out. Bin laden was one of those who appeals to those in the Arab street, hoping to entice them into the basement. You seem to think he does that by talking about issues which have no resonace with young arabs/muslims.
    You’re not the only one on this thread Slapp to try and claim Palestine isn’t a big issue of arab dissafection with West. Just like the Arab leaders, who yes, they do use the Palestine issue to deflect attention from their own nefarious rule. But to think they are able to do that by appealing to something which is not rooted in genuine popular sentiment is one he’ll of a magic trick. The fact of the matter is, however uncomfortable it may be for you and Alias, that the issue of Palestine is one which IS rooted in genuine popular sentiment among ordinary Arabs and Muslims. You must have some decision to make come elction time, if you think Politicians curry favour with the electorate by NOT appealing to popular sentiment.
    Unfortunately for those who would have us believe that the average arab is not concerned with Israel/Palestine issue. The facts don’t agree. As a recent pew poll from Egypt, showed…
     
    http://pewglobal.org/2011/04/25/egyptians-embrace-revolt-leaders-religious-parties-and-military-as-well/5/
     
    ‘Egyptians appear prepared to overturn the three-decade-old peace agreement that has been a cornerstone of the country’s relationship with Israel. By a margin of 54% to 36%, Egyptians say their country should annul the treaty with Israel. One-in-ten offer no definite opinion.’
     
    I guess the fact that Mubarak’s cronies are facing trial in Egypt for selling gas to Israel at favourable prices, isn’t indicative of anything either…right?
     
    http://yourjewishnews.com/5709.aspx
     
    And the fact that Slapp tries to claim…
     
    The other good news is that the recent move towards new regime in Arab lands is not a move towards Islam and sharia. So even his own people are saying “f you, Osama”. You’d think there’d be a lesson there for the anti-American crowd that you are part of, but, observing the indisputable does not appear to be one of the movement’s strong points.
     
    Shows he hasn’t really researched events in the arb uprisings. Poll after all poll shows anti-american sentiment, but one does not have to move toward the odiousness of Bin Laden’s camp to express such sentiment. however much you’d like to claim the two are inter-linked.
     
    http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2011/04/26/egypt/index.html
     
    Oh and Slapp, im well aware of the brutality of the various Palestinian factions, but by supporting the Israeli govt, you make a clown out of yourself with the following…
     
    It is one based on the most brutal terrorism, in the course of which attacks have been made upon innocent people, including unsuspecting women and children.
     
    Do we need to go down the sordid history of zionism’s and Israels murderous past. Shall we examine the various odious tactics employed by your beloved IDF. From the rather delightful littany of massacres throughout its history, to modern conceptions such as the very interesting ‘Dahiya Doctrine’. Truly ‘purity of arms’ on show from ‘the most moral army in the world’. And ohhhh…those wonderful ‘technologies of warning’ the IDF uses, which can turn a civilian into a combatant….as Tommy Cooper use to say…”Just like that”
     
    “The people who go into a house despite a warning do not have to be taken into account in terms of injury to civilians, because they are voluntary human shields. From the legal point of view, [once warned] I do not have to show consideration for them. In the case of people who return to their home in order to protect it, they are taking part in the fighting.”
     
    http://www.opendemocracy.net/article/legislative-attack
     
    Isn’t it great to be able to not target civilians simply by turning them into combatants…in your mind. Of course those arabs are just CRAZZZZY for not leaving their houses when instructed. Those of us with a decent grasp of the history realise however that some of those people are being ordered to do so by the very same army which has ethnically cleansed them from other parts of Israel/Palestine at least once, perhaps two or three times before. And the IDF is surprised they don’t leave their homes when ordered????

  36. Those above who claim Irish republicans are ‘mourning’ or ‘whining’ on this thread, over the removal of Bin Laden from the face of the earth, could you quote the sentence from I or anyone else, which shows prima facie, that to be the case. Otherwise its seen for the projection of bias, it so clearly is.

  37. As surely any halfway intelligent person must have guessed the US deliberately misled us all (that’s “lying” in old money) in their initial statements which told us that Bin Laden had been killed resisting during a firefight. They have now tweeked their construction of how best it might be contrived to look given evidence that might become accessible outside of their control:

    “Osama bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot and killed by US special forces, the White House has disclosed.

    White House spokesman Jay Carney also said that a woman killed in the raid had not been acting as a human shield, as previously claimed, but was caught in crossfire.

    He said however that one of bin Laden’s wives had been shot and wounded when she tried to rush the American troops as they burst into the family’s home.

    At a daily press briefing, Mr Carney insisted that the US Navy Seal commandos had been prepared to take the al Qaida leader alive, but said that he had been “resisting” when he was shot dead.

    Mr Carney acknowledged there had been inaccuracies in the original accounts of the raid given by US officials, saying they had given “a great deal of information in great haste”.

    In an updated account, Mr Carney said there had been two other families in bin Laden’s compound in the Pakistani garrison town of Abbottabad – one living on the ground floor of the same building as the bin Laden family.

    When the US troops entered the building, two al Qaida couriers were killed “along with a woman who was killed in crossfire”.

    The commandos then moved up to the first and second floors where they found the bin Laden family.

    “There was concern that bin Laden would oppose the capture operation and indeed he did resist,” Mr Carney said.”

    So no “firefight” which would imply shots fired in defence . Woman not used as “shield” but now “killed in crossfire” – given there were no shots fired in defence this “crossfire” is yet another construction (or “lie” as it used to be called”).

    Bin Laden was shot twice in the head, a very clinical form of execution and most unlikely of delivery to an individual making any form of resistance as Carney claims. Further, video evidence suggests that he was shot while in bed and we do know that he was ill and undergoing dialysis treatment so hardly capable of putting up much resistance.

    All-in-all it seems that this whole event was a lynching pure and simple and if there is anything that the US is good at (apart from Western movies and rock ‘n’ roll) it is surely a lynching and the very same folk who enjoyed a lynching of old seem to have come out again to cheer and jeer and frolic drunkenly in an attempt to cover their hidden shame.

    If the US had never done anything prior to September 2001 to merit the revulsion and hatred that led to the horror of the attack on the Twin Towers it is beyond me why, on Sunday last they should so gloatingly carry out an atrocious action which will only but attract justifiable odium and loathing in the very regions and among the very people whom they say they wish to influence with their idea of civilised behaviour.

    God help us all when the leading power in the world betrays itself as nothing more than a vengeful mob of brutal, lying gangsters.

  38. Soo…… if these latest reports on the Ben Laden operation are correct, an unarmed, invalided, frail old man on enough medications to open his own drug store ‘resisted arrest’ and proved a threat to hefty navy seals that came through programs of physical fitness etc where only five in a hundred get through.

    There are now claims that Ben Laden was shot in bed and his wife civilian wife was, at best, gunned down in collateral damage, while at worst she was shot to silence her account of what she had seen !

    The gloss is coming off this raid pretty quickly and it do not take an Einstein to see how this will play in the Islamic countries.

  39. MV:

    I never said that you were anti-American. I leave that manifestation to the likes of Stones. Next, would help if you would remember that there is not always a good or perfect choice. Helps to remember, from your legal affairs days, that the law recognizes the defense of choice of lesser evil. We’ve supported some not so pleasant people around the world simply and only because the alternative was worse. It is a no win situation for us in the minds of more than a few, since if we intervened more directly and ran the show ourselves so as to avoid the lesser evil, the Stones crowd would be calling us “imperialist” (as they already are).

    Next, re our affairs in the Americas, helps to remember who is No. 1 and who is No. 2 in this fine table:

    http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/DBG.TAB1.2.GIF

    Look at the rest of the list as well. So it wasn’t like we had some great love for the likes of Somoza, we simply understood, going back to my first point, that the communist alternative was going to be worse, as history was showing us at the time in all its human misery and death.

    Lastly, not only are the likes of Stones anti-American, they are more generally anti-human freedom. So is the rest of an unhealthy portion of the left, even in my own country. Here are their heroic Vietnamese friends:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/vietnam/7035359/Vietnam-dissidents-jailed-up-to-16-years-for-subversion.html

    5 years in the cage for promoting multiparty democracy. Some liberation.

    That will end part 1, as my first attempt went into the forever limbo of moderation owing to more than 2 links.

  40. MV:

    Part 2: Here’s a somewhat longer piece from Human Rights Watch:

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/02/05/vietnam-dissidents-struggle-exercise-free-speech

    You a union man? From that piece:

    “In addition, police arrested at least eight members of a newly formed union, the United Workers and Peasants Organization of Vietnam. Independent trade unions are banned in Vietnam.”

    Workers of the world unite!

    None of which is to say that the government of the former Republic of Vietnam was all sweetness and light, but only that their brand of corruption was and is infinitely preferable to the miscreants who first ran the north and now the whole show. They were the lesser evil.

    Oh, and note that Dubya was right, see the common theme of the dissidents. Democracy. Show your support and sign up for your copy of the noted Freedom And Democracy Newsletter.

    And note the reference there to the late Tran Do, in the discussion of the one elderly fellow. Tran Do was a former General who was expelled from the Vietnamese Communist Party. Shortly before his expulsion, he wrote a letter to the VCP, which provides, in pertinent part:

    The country is in desperate need of the democratization process. I am not saying democracy is a panacea. It will take many other factors to bring the country out of poverty and backwardness. But democratization is a must and the first condition to ensure the success of national development. As long as people don’t have freedom of thinking, freedom of expression, freedom of the press, freedom to associate, and other fundamental freedoms of a democracy, all the talk about national development and modernization is useless [my note, compare the lack of those things elsewhere in the world, to include the Middle East, and note the accompanying backwardness].
    ***
    Two Immediate Tasks of the Democratization Process

    To install a progressive democracy that could bring the country on par with the world, there is no need to start with complicated and time-consuming projects. There are two very simple, practical and feasible tasks that we can do right away. In fact, these tasks were already written in the Constitution, which we have not implemented.

    1- Installing a regime, a set of laws on the freedom of thought, freedom of expression, and consequently, freedom of the press and publication.

    – To do this, we just need to add or modify the existing Press Laws and Publication Laws. These two legal documents contain many articles violating the spirit and the letters of the 1992 Constitution and especially its predecessor, the 1946 Constitution. We now need new laws to allow private citizens to publish newspapers and to set up publishing houses. They only have to inform the government of their enterprises and obey all the laws of the land. They should not have to ask for permission from anyone. That was the right our people enjoyed even during the French colonial era. In recent years, Mr. Nguyen Van Tran wrote a thick book, titled “Writing to the National Assembly and the Mother”, to raise this point. He wishes that our people could have just as much democracy as during the French colonial era! How ironic.

    Yes, how ironic indeed. Promised them liberation and instead further enslaved them, but that is the communist way.

    Lastly, the late Tran Do’s obit, courtesy of The Economist:

    http://www.economist.com/node/1280571

    My only critique of the late General is that he should have seen it coming a mile away. From his 2nd letter to the VCP:

    In fact, there have been the Party’s mistakes that brought perils to the entire nation, destructive fate to tens of thousands of families and millions of people. They are fiascoes of the Nghe Tinh Soviet (1930), the Cochinchina Uprising (1940), the Land Reform (1955-56), the socialist reforms.

    As I related in a prior thread, when I quoted the one German journo acknowledging his own blindness, the “Land Reform” was the execution of right around 50,000 Vietnamese. That’s when I would have broke from the movement. 5 years in a cage for daring to propose a multiparty democracy pales in comparison. So what did he expect?

  41. Stones:

    When the man reports on what he asks of us, he didn’t list his Israel/Palestine tripe. It’s irrevelant to him.

    Would otherwise help if you know Osama, who once was the playboy, driving around Beirut in his Mercedes, frequenting the hot nightspot, and bagging the tourist Euro blonde, back in the day before your PLO friends tore asunder what once was the Paris of the Middle East. His love of Islam and sharia and his desire to impose the same on us is simply his atonement for his prior playboy life. That was his animus, not some great love for Palestine. But since he was smart enough to now that humans weren’t going to wire themselves to detonate in order to stop Budweiser commericals with a gal in a bikini trying to get us to buy a beer, he had to think of something. They all do it. Every scumbag in the Arab Muslim world plays the same card. And you can ask the Palestinian Arabs themselves how sincere they believe those playing their card to be. Their answer will be, nil. Osama was no different. Witness his singular failure to ever attack Israel itself.

    When you get the morality vision, and understand the fact of penetrating American culture, and so even Saddam enjoyed a good Rambo movie, you’ll understand why the war against us. He was trying to save his soul, redeem it from his prior life of fornication, etc. And he was of the opinion that there is no higher moral duty than to prevent his fellow Arabs and Muslims from falling prey to the same penetrating “Western decadence” that he addressed in his letter. And that’s why the movement is religious and not secular, and surely you understand, atheist that you are, that a secular argument could be made. But he never made it. Instead we got, come to Allah and Islam, and leave behind fornication, gambling, intoxication, usury, etc. Let me put it this way, do you fornicate? You gamble? You ever get intoxicated? You ever loan money at interest? But you claim to be on their side, so we can’t claim that our fornication, gambling, intoxication, usury, etc., compels us to occupy Saudi and oppress the Palestianian Arabs. So why is the fornication, gambling, intoxication, usury, etc., in the piece? Because the elimination of such was his mission and the foregoing on Israel/Palestine is the window dressing as, again, even he knew that not even the misfits in that part of the world would wire themselves to detonate or fly jumbo jets into our skycrapers in order to rid the world of the bikini clad gal in the Budweiser commerical. In other words, if Palestine was the concern, there was no need for rambling recitation, going on at length, on our need to “revert” to Islam and give up our Western ways, as justice for the Palestinians would have been enough. So justice for Palestine wasn’t his point.

  42. S’funny ya know. Suicide bombers operating on a daily basis in Iraq,IED’s exploding daily in Afghanistan.Rockets fired into Israel indiscriminately. Not a peep about it ?
    The Yanks finally do something constructive,ie;snuff the self confessed mass murderer,and some of our more colourful chums go ape shit ??

    Reminds of Peter ( wringing of hands ) Taylor,interviewing the SAS men after the Iranian Embassy siege.

    ” But how did you feel,killing someone”,he gushed.
    ” Job well done mate ! It was them or us !! ”

    Now I do realise in blue sky,green grass,always sunny world,friend Osama should have been given ample opportunity to surrender. Read his rights,and had access to a Solicitor……………….ya know,the way pira did with their prisoners/disappeared…………..but in REAL WORLD,things work slightly different !!

    Ho hum,I’m sure ya all will get over it…..eventually. 😉

  43. A frail old man on medication no less! He was still a mass murderer and since 9/11 the way to deal with terrorists has openly changed. Ask Mr P King…Its the main reason the IRA agreed to the GFA, not only had the IRA lost the war that never was they were under no illusions as to how many ‘friends’ they had left.

    I consider myself a socialist and a liberal but I won’t be a hypocrite for socialism or liberalism.

    Bin Laden was the proud instigator of mass murder before and after 9/11. If one or two would be terrorists are looking at his death and having second thoughts about murdering people: It will give some purpose to his death.

  44. PIP,

    What to hell is so special about 9/11 could you explain that to me?
    Is it because it happened on western soil?
    Or is it because they were mainly white?

    Lovely nice Bill Clinton signed sanctions against Iraq which he and his aides and general staff knew would inflict such a hardship on the country that hundreds of thousands would die, hundreds of thousands PIP does that number register with you at all?
    The disgusting part about these sanctions were that they were deliberately targeted at civilians especially women and children by withholding medical supplies in the hope of creating the environment and conditions for revolution by the masses against Saddam.
    The WHO put the death toll due to sanctions in the high tens of thousands and perhaps into 6 figures other organisations put it much higher with some quoting a million with 80% of the dead being children under the age of 12, one six year old girl died in her fathers arms from toothache.

    Buffalo Bill was quite happy to kill hundreds of thousands to get one man! He was quite happy to use the world trade centre housed in the twin towers to ensure these sanctions were rigidly enforced in goods and monetary form.
    But I’ll bet a penny to a pound that you and your like were down in Belfast city centre with your little stars and strips flag waving it for all you were worth.

    Did Belfast and districts turn out in such number because he was White? Or Christian? It certainly wasn’t because he was good! Or do you think Belfast is full of swingers and they all wanted to blow him?

    Or perhaps you only see the bad in people when they are from a different religion with a different language and darker skin because the Media feed you the opinion they want you to have every single day.

    I am not condoning attacks on public buildings or hijacking planes but I’ll state here and now if my child died in my arms from lack of medicine housed a 100 miles up the road because some rich fat white bastard decided it would be good for them living ten thousand miles away be under no illusion
    I WOULD FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT NOT TO BE A SUICIDE BOMBER.

  45. “I WOULD FIND IT VERY DIFFICULT NOT TO BE A SUICIDE BOMBER.”

    Excellent career choice. Why don’t you sign up, and take RC and RS with you?

    How many Arabs are there? Now count the number of suicide bombers. Is it a more significant percentage that 0000.1%? Not even close, so I guess that makes you utterly deranged since the almost absolute majority do not share your demented state of mind. Or perhaps it is you that is sane and the 99.99% who are mad in not agreeing with you?

  46. The common fallacy proffered by terrorist apologists here is that terrorism is a perfectly normal human response to political disputes. In reality, it is prodoundly abnormal by definition since only a tiny minority of subhumans engage in it.

    The percentage is considerably less than the percentage of the general populaton who are afflicted with a violent personality disorder, so it is that abnormal minority who look for an excuse to engage in activity that their pathological malfunction compels them to enage in and some of whom find that excuse in what they preceive to be abuse of their subhuman rights.

    The fact that they care absolutely nothing about human rights, using it merely as justification, is demonstrated by their utterly comtempt for human rights in supporting acts that involve indiscriminate violation of human rights.

  47. Munsterview: ‘and Ben would tell all he knew about insider politics before he fell out with the CIA and US. It was not so much a few skeletons in the wardrobe as a whole colossal graveyard full of them’

    And what secrets would those be? That they helped him when it suited their interests? Stunning news

    Yawn…

    The US can do no right to most people. Why even bother?

  48. Oracle

    To be honest I don’t think it makes much difference that I watched 9/11 happen live on tv. All murder is terrible including those murders committed by any state. If the murderers of 9/11 had kept their target the Pentagon and/or the White House that could be seen as military but they deliberately chose to murder as many people as possible, both the timing and the method were to maximise the number of innocent deaths.

  49. I never said that you were anti-American. I leave that manifestation to the likes of Stones.

    You can continue to clown yourself with that ridiculous little tactic. But as already pointed out, its primarliy used by the likes of yourself who wishes to side-setp uncomfortable home truths and infer that those highlighting the issues do so only out of ‘hatred’. And isn’t it funny, but on the whole, its a tactic primarliy used by supporters of US/Israeli govt policies. Why is that? Am i enveloped by ‘anti-chineseism’ if I condemn what is occurring in Tibet?

    Im actually enjoying your continued clowning of yourself. Your selective choice of cut and paste is endearing as well.

    They all do it. Every scumbag in the Arab Muslim world plays the same card. And you can ask the Palestinian Arabs themselves how sincere they believe those playing their card to be. Their answer will be, nil. Osama was no different. Witness his singular failure to ever attack Israel itself.

    Unfortunately for you Slapp, your contention that arabs on the whole do not care about the plight of the palestinians would be a sound one, if only it wasn’t rubbished by the facts.

    In poll

    http://www.brookings.edu/reports/2010/0805_arab_opinion_poll_telhami.aspx

    after poll

    http://www.brookings.edu/events/2009/0519_arab_opinion.aspx

    after poll

    http://pewglobal.org/2011/04/25/egyptians-embrace-revolt-leaders-religious-parties-and-military-as-well/4/

    The issue of Palestine is one which is common among issues which occupy ordinary arabs.

    and so even Saddam enjoyed a good Rambo movie, you’ll understand why the war against us. He was trying to save his soul, redeem it from his prior life of fornication, etc.

    Who did Saddam attack in the West?

    As I said above I knew it wouldn’t be long before somebody used the THUFWWR argument. And Slapp you duly oblige.

    Your attempt to go down the route of ‘They Hate Us For Who/What We Are’ is typical of the American right. Routinely we get the ghost of Sayyid Qutb being rolled out to demonstrate how ‘the the freedoms and lifestyle of the ‘west’ that angers muslims/arabs. It’s nothing to do with what the west actually does. Sure, the continued crimes against the Palestinians don’t bother ordinary arabs. The propping up of unsavoury dictators don’t annoy ordinary arabs, the selective condemnation and action on repression doesn’t anger ordinary arabs. No, oridnary arabs only dislike the west because “we’re free”…yaaaaaay !!!

    Gen Petraeus was wrong when he made the linkage was he?

    The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR [area of responsibility]. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.

    (The AIPAC style crowd jumped on this and tried to force a retraction.)

    Now perhaps you can grasp the very simple point, I have been making. Reacquaint yourself with Rami Khouri’s ‘Arab Street vs Arab Basement’ analogy i referred to earlier.
    Stop trying to deny that Palestine is not an issue. Stop trying to portray it as irrelevant. It is precisely one of the major reason for instability and animus toward the West because of (not wrongly) perceived bias in favour of the Aggressor (Israel – as ben-Gurion himself admitted)

    It is one of the dog whistle’s which i said above a minority of men who cannot be reasoned with and are unreasonable, use to rally support and encourage young muslims/arabs off the street and into the basement, where they are radicalized.

    Even Dennis Ross (hardly an enemy of Israel) is smart enough to recognise this…

    “Pursuing peace is not a substitute for dealing with the other challenges … It is also not a panacea. But especially as it relates to resolving the Arab-Israeli conflict, if one could do that, it would deny state and non-state actors a tool they use to exploit anger and grievances.”

    http://www.lobelog.com/ross-talks-up-petraeus-linkage/

    Geddit? has the penny dropped? your continued inference that it doesn’t matter about the Israel/Palestine conflict is utterly ridiculous. It does not demonstrate understanding of the region.

    if Ross isn’t enough, try Gen. James Mattis, head of U.S. military’s Central Command (CENTCOM) who referred to it as recenlty as March 1st this year….

    “I believe the only reliable path to lasting peace in this region is a viable two-state solution between Israel and Palestine,” he said. “This issue is one of many that is exploited by our adversaries in the region, and is used as a recruiting tool for extremist groups.

    http://www.army.mil/-news/2011/03/02/52660-enemys-nightmare-coming-true-in-afghanistan/index.html

    The continued attempt by you Slapp to deny Palestine as a relevant issue, ignore not the just facts, but the reality and continued admissions by those concerned with the region. You can continue to clown yourself with the ‘They hate Us For Who We Are’ routine, whilst no less comical than when i first heard it as a child, unfortunately for you ignores the uncomfortable reality.

  50. The common fallacy proffered by terrorist apologists here is that terrorism is a perfectly normal human response to political disputes. In reality, it is prodoundly abnormal by definition since only a tiny minority of subhumans engage in it.

    Alias, your contention that terrorism is never rational ignores the very simple reality of conflict. I realise its a deep desire of yours to portray particularly Palestinian violence as irrational, as occurring in a ‘political dispute’. The obvious inference here is that the I/P conflict could be settled through political means. Again even the most cursory glance at the I/P conflict pours cold water on that assumption. The Palestinians have never gained anything through political means from Israel. Israel refused to even recognise they existed up until the 70’s. Golda meir odious quote comes to mind. Shamir admitted he was interested in finding a solution. During the height of goodwill between the two parties, Oslo (which was a con) the settlements doubled in size. netanyahu was even caught on tape saying he purposely buried the Oslo accords. So thats what Palestinians get when trying diplomatic means. And bear in mind, the settlement enterprise is most certainly terrorism as well. it involves land theft, ethnic cleansing and death if one resists too much. the cry (which your basic assumption seekds to under pin) of ‘if only they would use peaceful means) is unfortunately seen to be a hollow one. The contemptuous dismissal of Palestinian attempts to redress wrong through the international courts system, as ‘lawfare’. The continued imprisonment of non-violent protest organisers by the Israeli govt, shows how empty that cry is.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2010/12/matthew-lee-of-ap-why-is-it-beneath-the-united-states-to-come-out-and-say-something-about-this-person-who-is-a-practitioner-of-nonviolence.html

    the ever new, innovative, byzantine legislation the Knesset bring into to squash Palestinian rights. Hell they’re not even permitted to remember the Naqba without some kind of penalty.

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/labor-min-to-lieberman-nakba-bill-sullies-israel-s-image-1.280252

    And this oft-declared ‘beacon’ of western democracy even takes innocent folks hostage to be used as bargaining chips, as was noted in Plonim v. Minister of Defense

    ‘a detention is legal if it is designed to promote State security, even if the danger to State security does not emanate from the detainees themselves,

    http://tinyurl.com/3ew96py

    But you would have us believe theres no rationale for palestinians taking up arms. So precisely what, if palestinians can’t use armed resistance (even though intl law says an occupied people can), can’t organise non-violent reisistance, can’t use international courts and can’t even hold remembrances for the Naqba. Pray tell, whats are ;these political methods’ you would have us believe have been open to the Palestinians for over 60 years now. But which the inference of your post suggests, they just never try. what are they?

    http://www.tabletmag.com/news-and-politics/52645/disobedient/

    http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/01/12/israel-keeps-palestinian-gandhi-imprisoned/

    http://blog.sojo.net/2011/01/07/nonviolent-activists-in-palestine-face-harassment-prison-and-violence/

    But according Alias, this dispute can be settled through political means. violence form one side (but not the other) is irrational we’re told. perhaps you’d like them to just give up and go away, they’re arabs, who cares…right?

  51. Alias : “…Excellent career choice. Why don’t you sign up, and take RC and RS with you?….”

    Ah sucks…….. my omission noted !

    Or do you have something more extreme than suicide bombing in mind for me ?

    Brian : “….The US can do no right to most people. Why even bother?….”

    So far I have questioned just two things regarding the US assassination of Ben Laden, first the wisdom or what hindsight will prove the lack of same in the way the US assassinated him and second the veracity of the US accounts of his dispatching.

    For the record I am totally opposed to Ben Laden’s organization and his fundamentalist doctrines, these were as much of a threat to my Sufi and other Moslem friends as they were to ‘ The West’. On purpose I avoided that explicit statement to give the usual suspects sufficient rope etc and they did not disappoint !

    For the record also I did over seven years back, accidently meet a former Ben Laden retired fighter and spend a few days in his company, in Ireland while undergoing medical treatment, some details of which I posted in Slugger in the course of another thread . He made common cause with Ben Laden’s fighters during the Fight against Soviet Forces but while he was grateful for Ben’s resources, the religious ideology was too extreme for him.

  52. On purpose I avoided that explicit statement to give the usual suspects sufficient rope etc and they did not disappoint

    As they usually do MV. Their ‘logic’ is that if one highlights unsavoury aspects of US govt policy, you are ergo a supporter of Bin Laden and his goons. It’s rather like somebody in your house suggesting the windows could do with a cleaning but instead of agreeing, saying “No need, sure the neighbour’s are dirtier”

  53. RepublicanStones

    The opposite can also be said; every time people like me criticize either the verminous totalitarian, homophobic, racist, misogenist caliphatists or their sympathisers on the ‘Left’ in Ireland or the UK one is routinely dismissed as some form of fanatical Zionist neo-con. This is irritating.

  54. Alias : “….The percentage is considerably less than the percentage of the general population who are afflicted with a violent personality disorder, so it is that abnormal minority who look for an excuse to engage in activity that their pathological malfunction compels them to engage in and some of whom find that excuse in what they perceive to be abuse of their subhuman rights….”.

    ‘Subhuman’ ?

    I would have thought that an aware Israeli Citizen would be the the last possible person to casually or deliberately use the nomenclature of the Nazi oppressors against the millions of the murdered and genocidally liquidated Jewish peoples, when referring to those that they disagreed with ?

    Even if that is their personally held belief, in regard to some other human beings, then out of respect for the Holocaust, death camp and other Nazi victims, I would have thought that they would have avoided using such historically loaded and loathed nomenclature ?

    One of the problems of being a constant unconditional apologist for Israeli behavior is that in every other moral and political issue the feet must then be cut to fit the Israeli shoes. This completely distorts the objective analysis of those involved and leaves them without a defense when accused of double standards, expediency and hyprocicy.

    No more needs be said in regard to this, the tendency is as apparent as those ‘self evident’ facts the framers of the US constitution had in mind when they referred to this human instinctive awarness phenomena.

  55. Munsterview

    What do you suppose a reasonable Israeli notices about , say, Hamas OTHER than its explicitly genocidal intentions towards Jews (sic) and the discomforting similarity which that has with Nazism ?

  56. Nun……

    For anyone interested, look up the ‘Nexus’ magazine on line, they did an excellent and detailed multi issue article on the foundation of Hamas. There are a great many reasons why anyone on progressive left politics should be opposed to Hamas historically and currently.

    As far as ‘reasonable Israelis’ are concerned, to get their viewpoint I google Israeli Defense Forces + Refusal to serve’ and get the views of those who have been involved in oppression of the Palestinian and other peoples and had the moral courage to say ” no….. I will not do this any more” !

    The activities of Hamas do not occur in a vacuum, their support is in part proportional to the total war and genocidal policies waged by the Israeli State against their Palestinian and other unfortunate neighboring Arab peoples.

  57. Nun : “….What do you suppose a reasonable Israeli notices about , say, Hamas OTHER than its explicitly genocidal intentions towards Jews (sic) and the discomforting similarity which that has with Nazism ?…..”

    And what do you suppose a reasonable Palestinian notices about , say, Israel OTHER than its explicitly genocidal intentions towards Arabs and the discomforting similarity which that has with Nazism ?

    Take the continual appropriation of and massive new settlements on Palestinian lands in defiance of a plethora of UN resolutions, US government policy, EU policy, Russian Federation countries, Asian countries, etc. In fact in defiance of the whole civilized world political and religious systems.

    This defiance is carried out by use of internationally illegal, unsanctioned, force and who is the only group prepared to also use force to oppose this constant land theft and assert the rights of the dispossessed Palestinian peoples ? Hamas !

    Palestinian peoples turn to Hamas and support it’s militant campaign for the same reason that desperate dispossessed Irish people turned to Tories, Raparees, Whiteboys and Moonlighters whatever of the prevailing politics or political systems of the time and the despite the extreme violence these groups like the Invincible were prepared to use.

    Our dispossessed and powerless Native Irish and oppressed landless laborers and tenant farmers supported the violence of these groups despite the constant denouncements of Church Clergy and State integrated Politicians as these various organizations, questionable as their practices may have been, were still the only ones prepared to use the same force and terror as State forces were visiting on the oppressed people and then up the anti and exceed those levels of normal violence to ‘terrorize the terrorists’.

    Contemporary events or past historys are not all that difficult to understand, just try stepping out of the oppressor heritage once in a while and standing in the shoes of the oppressed. Many of protestant planter stock did just that such as Twiss, Poff, Barrett etc back to Pierce Ferriter in the South in Elizebethan times and the transplanted extended Armstrong clan in the North, who had to be transplanted yet again to the American Colonies where they again sided with rebellion.

    You may not change your views but who knows it may give an understanding and appreciation of what it is like on the other side. Just because might may have temporary dominance do not mean that automatically ‘might is right’!

    In fact history has shown that however pompous and self righteous ‘might’ may have been in its dominance period and however convincing it’s claims to legitimacy was, whether it was slavery, British Imperialism in India or Irish Landlordism, to give but a few apt examples, ‘might’ in hindsight is very seldom seen as ‘right’, so seldom in fact that the cases where it has been so, prove the exception to the rule !

  58. Ach now I get it…………….after 170 posts,much ringing of hands,stamping of feet,and downright indignation at the snuffing of *you know who*,the *by the way,we are not Bin Laden cheerleaders,like* card is finally played.
    Excuse me while I smile. 🙂
    Let us look at the evidence here Watson.
    Post after post after post of hate filled indignation,bordering on near hysteria,at the US hunting party.
    * You dirty Yanks will sow bloody revenge,so you will like*
    * I too would be a suicide bomber*
    *Does no one care about the poor Palestinians*
    *It was the West who created him,so it was,like*
    Then Watson,we have the curious case of the dog who now proclaims it was a ruse all along.
    A cunning plan,if you will,to let out enough rope,so others would hang themselves.
    Well yes,quite.
    NOW,old friend,we have yet more links,proclaiming the poor man was woken from his sleep,naked,defenceless,confused,needing the toilet,grasping desperately for his pack of smokes,and imploring,begging,nay,downright blubbering for mercy.
    That would be a touching scenario,if it were not for the recurring memories of people having their heads hacked off as they too begged for mercy.
    No Watson,what we have here is a motley crew of terrorist apologists,going ape shit over the execution of their poster boy.
    You can almost feel their pent up frustration,at such a successful,clinical dispatching of their hero.
    *We do not/did not like him*,they would now have us believe.
    *I spent time with his brother,Billy-Bob,and he was nice*,we are asked to believe.
    Yet,through all these latest denials of sympathy,our usual suspects STILL try to deflect blame onto to anyone and everyone else,except Osammy himself.
    A cunning ruse,fooling no one,but their deluded selves,I would conclude.
    On Monday the 2nd of May,at approximately 3am BST,a cold hearted,merciless,ruthless mass murderer was dispatched to whatever hell he believes in.
    I,for one,applaud this action unequivocally.
    ” A JOB WELL DONE”

    That’s all you had to type,chaps.

    Elementary.

    *simples* 😉

  59. Footnote……………I forgot about the perpetual *defenseless,native irish,MOPEry card*. Unforgivable,I know…….

    Sweet jebus,does everything have to come back again to the MOPE,whinge ??

    🙂

  60. AGlass : “….Footnote……………I forgot about the perpetual *defenseless,native irish,MOPEry card*. Unforgivable,I know…….”

    Those like me can embrace our history on this island and be a proud part of it, you have to duck, dive and excuse most of yours! Bottom line, is your family heritage that of people liberation or people oppression ?

    Mock, or for that matter, real exasperation or epithets cannot deflect the answer to that question or change the historical prism through which one is likely to view current events and past attitudes. Only two types of people want to jettison their past history, those who are indifferent to it or those who have good cause to ignore it.

    Given your reaction to any factual delineation of our oppressed past on this Island, it is not very difficult to work out that you identify with the oppressors rather than the oppressed and that of course is your entitlement.

    However please do realize that it is a very much a minority position and even the remnants of the landed aristocratic gentry down here manage to show or at very least feign concern and regret when talking of these historical events of our common history. A little less hubris and a little more tolerance may be in order but then again I am probably a decade or more too early in asking for this !

  61. Poor Bin Laden.

    Even after getting the US to stage a spectacular and idiotic over reaction he still failed miserably.

    All over the Middle East the youth of all kinds have come together to demand reform, freedom, and democracy. His notion of a self-sacrificing, stone age Islamic, fanatical revolutionary elite leading Arabs to a new caliphate surely was made irrelevant by the very people he counted on.

  62. Brian : “…His notion of a self-sacrificing, stone age Islamic, fanatical revolutionary elite leading Arabs to a new caliphate surely was made irrelevant by the very people he counted on……”

    Wrong analysis Brian !

    Ben Laden knew the mind of his enemy : he knew when the risen peoples tried to get rid of their current bastards, the Good Ole US of A could be counted on to replace them with their handpicked bastards who would blight hopes and exhaust patience as the world interests of the US are as ‘Great’ Britians that of States, not interested in true development of democracy in these countries but rather in installing local pro-Western compliant kleptomaniacs who will sell out their countries oil and other resources to the appropriating, exploiting West at bottom dollar.

    Remember the creation of that artificial chunk of territory called Panama when the US interests needed to drive a canal through the sovereign nation where the canal is now located ?

    Ben Laden knew time was on his side. Incidently I took part in an event last night organized for exiled Syrians to support the push for democracy and spoke at it, lest I be accused erroneously of supporting the Syrian regime as I was Ben Laden !

    However we need not go to Panama for an example or corrupt dictatorships, we have had leading members of Fianna Fail including Government Ministers jailed for corruption and contempt of court here in Ireland and these same people sold off out Natural Gas in the West Coast to Shell for cents on the dollar !

    If that is the way ‘friends of the USA’ are treated, then God help their enemies !

  63. Munsterview

    To describe by implication the free state as a dictatorship in the context of this thread, with some of the most brutal theocratic dictatorships on the face of the planet run by the scum of the earth in focus, is just frivolous, cheap and pitiful.

    If you despise the USA with a passion which far, far exceeds your disapproval (if it even is disapproval, mind…) of dangerous and profoundly cruel Islamic states then at least have the decency to admit it. Don’t give us this ‘oh but they’re nearly as bad, the hypocrites’ pish any more – just admit where you stand and we can have done with this puerile guttersnipe rubbish about US imperialism and ‘Irish’ natural gas.

  64. “Ben Laden knew the mind of his enemy”

    With a gag like that you might consider joining Cleese on his alimony tour. Had he known his enemy he would not have “done” the Twin Towers. He would have realised that such an attack would awaken the “sleeping giant” that rose out of the carnage of Pearll Harbor and that, like Isoroku Yamamoto, the perceived architect of the “day of infamy”he was signing his own death warrant.

    That said there has been a vast volume of ordure poured forth by the media since bin Laden was terminated with extreme prejudice. The truth as to what happened, who was involved and how it happened is sealed up and protected by a “bodyguard of lies,” that will not be penetrated for many years to come.

    This was a “black op.” During World War 2 the Western Allies read the Japanese and German codes. The Battle of Midway was won because of the information learned; Yamamoto was assassinated because of this information (he wasn’t armed at the time or invited to surrender); the Battle of the Atlantic was won etc etc yet every success gained from the efforts of the codebreakers was concealed by a variety of cover stories designed to divert attention from the truth so that the Allies could continue to benefit.

    Apart from the fact that bin Laden is dead there’s little of lasting note or historical interest in any of the press reports etc. – many are ill-informed, speculative or the results of briefing designed to both misinform and disinform. I do however think that a lot of friends and associates of the deceased will be running for cover – the contents of those hard drives and the phone numbers are pure manna to the Americans. Ket us hope a few more join bin Laden in “sleeping with the fishes.”

    There can be no law without order. If there is order there can be law and no way in which disputes cannot be resolved and settled peacefully as all in the island of Ireland know.

    The US has shown that it will relentlessly track down and ruthlessly eliminate any who attack it. I, for one, don’t blame it and I don’t give a fig for bin Laden’s human rights or any need for a trial. The Nuremberg trials were held to instill a sense of guilt into the German people – not to be just or fair to the war criminals. They almost back-fired when Goebbels ran rings around Jackson (US prosecutor) during cross-examination. Eichmann was tried to remind a new generation what had happened during the Holocaust – he remains the only person ever to have been judicially executed in Israel. Neither at Nuremberg nor in Jerusalem did the defendants receive a “fair trial” (in the sense that they stood a real chance of being acquitted) – it was unashamedly “victors’ justice.”

    The US has also more than amply shown that it is magnanimous to defeated enemies and not the vindictive imperial power its detractors paint. After the War it rebuilt Europe and Japan – indeed, occupied the latter post war under the paternalistic but benevolent rule of MacArthur who guided Japan towards renouncing militarism and imperial pretension and adopting a democratic form of government that has been stable and of immense benefit to Japan and the entire region.

    Violence proffers no resolution of grivances though, admittedly, it can create the circumstances that impel resolution. Bin Laden’s legacy is that he commenced a chain of violence that will endure yet more years at an unknown cost to the peoples of the earth. I hope that his death will send a message to his followers that the only option now open to them is to engage in a peaceful pursuit of that they seek and to cease and desist from any further violence.

  65. munst

    Far be it from me to deny you the perpetual MOPE whinge. But like the terrorist in question,he has now taken responsibility for his own actions.( with a little assistance )
    Rather than flailing about,trying to blame everyone else,( Unionists/British/USA/Henry II ) how about taking some responsibility for your own (in)actions ??

    You should try it fella…………the republican mono mantra of MOPEery is wearing very,VERY thin !!

    😉

  66. Crubeen or for that matter anybody

    Many have stated that it is proved that violence doesn’t work, what has proved that someone who uses greater violence.
    Peaceful protest only works if the subject for protest is easily embarrassed like commercial companies other that that it achieves nothing….. it changes nothing

    2-3 Million people marched for peace in London Britain ignored them and went on the Iraqi slaughter mission.

    The Palestinians and hundreds of peaceful protests before they resorted to violence Israel ignored them

    The UN has implemented hundreds of resolutions calling on Israel to return stolen Palestinian land… Israel just ignored everyone they had tanks and guns and US backing!

    Peaceful protestors were killed in their tens of thousands in Argentina Chile Panama Honduras.
    When Nicaragua won its freedom and help democratic elections did the USA accept this.. Hell no! They instead trained murder squads to bomb women and children with money and guns from Col Oliver North

    Only the poor or the weak are expected to give up weapons and violence the rich and the strong never do EVER!
    Why would they continue with violence if it didn’t work? Why would they continue to make bigger faster more explosive weapons if it didn’t work?
    Why would they waste the money if it didn’t work?

  67. oracle

    “2-3 Million people marched for peace in London”

    That’s not true. They marched very largely in opposition to military intervention in a decidedly already unpeaceful situation. That’s not the same thing as marching for peace by a very very long way. After all, they weren’t marching in oposition to Saddam Hussein, they were marching in opposition to Blair and Bush.

    Non-intervention is in itself often an action, a decision. In the case of Iraq, non-intervention would not have been a decision “for peace”. To the contrary, it would have been an acceptance of barbarism, a statement of toleration for murder and sadism, a passive thumbs up to genocidal, expansionist tyrants.

  68. Oracle

    “Peaceful protest only works if the subject for protest is easily embarrassed like commercial companies other that that it achieves nothing….. it changes nothing”

    In the context of God the rules are that if you use violence against an oppressor who uses violence, there is no incentive for God to make a point. What point would God make by rewarding the oppressed in that context. No, the point is that in the eyes of God, the strong have a right to assert their domination. To assert otherwise is to say that there is no law and that violence will be the norm.

    That’s why all change in Ireland, from O’Connell to Parnell, to Hume came from non-violence. God was asserting the rules.

  69. The Word

    Not a single syllable of that relates to what we’re talking about; can I please ask you nicely to keep your contribution relavent – ideally of this world – or to desist from contributing at all. This is just pure white noise which says nothing and adds nothing.

    Thanks

  70. Nun

    “To the contrary, it would have been an acceptance of barbarism, a statement of toleration for murder and sadism, a passive thumbs up to genocidal, expansionist tyrants.”

    You have no sense of irony at all. The above is exactly what it became.

    A situation like Saddam isn’t there to validate violent intervention. It’s to prove that it didn’t work. If people want change then they have to assert a principle that can be rewarded, like Jesuit tyrannicide.

    How far will God go to push that rule? I refer you to the 9 million men who died during WWI.

    What was Hitler all about? Suffice to say that a British goverment met with him for peace talks before the war. Would anybody care to save 30 million people by sacrificing their life? Not a British thing to do.

    Instead they got a little bit of validation for their perfection of the Irish, lost their empire and their money in the battle to beat a tyrant. In other words, they became indebted to the USA, and the Irish effectively won.

  71. The Word

    That’s what it became ? My point is that that is what it already was and would have continued to be without any intervention. Your ‘peace’ option was an effective endorsement of those things by turning the other cheek (an utterly immoral injunction) to Saddam Hussein. If that’s you’re point of view, fine. You care none for the deaths and the cruelty and the torutre of Iraqi civilians, fine – just say so. Stop wrapping it up in the cheap, tatty, worthless ribbons of evasive christian rubbish. It’s sinister immoral nonsense and almost every point you make proves it in spades.

    I have no intention of getting into a useless debate with you agaian where you avoid my questions and fail to deliver a single punch on a rational exchange – you’re not able for rational debate, care nothing for humanity.

    I’ll lsimply eave you with these rather obvious points.

    On whose divine watch did WW1 happen ? You would say God’s.

    Who created the men’s ability to kill one another ? You would say God.

    What did he do to stop any of it ? Nothing. You reduce the human to mere playthings of an extremely cruel, twisted, malicious divine tyrant. Who you worship on your knees and thank every day for creating you a slave and a toy.

    What was Hitler about ? As a fellow christian of his you ought to know.

  72. Nunof. : “….To describe by implication the free state as a dictatorship in the context of this thread, ….”

    I did no such thing ! What I did was point that a now totally discredited Government that contained a Minister jailed for corruption and a leading senior TD jailed repeatedly for contempt of court and a ‘Taoiseach-in-a-press’ with unexplainable money in his bank accounts if ‘gambling winnings’ are discounted, signed a contract with Shell that virtually gave away our gas for bottom dollar.

    I also said that this was the modus operandi behind the US and ‘Great’ Britain in relation to the natural resources of Middle East countries.

    As to ‘Anti-American’ I spelled out in detail where I stood on that one. If a US citizen, defender and advocate of the US like ‘Slappy’ can accept my credentials on that one and move on to argue the merits of the methodologies used, then your net pickling can be seen for the cheap shot it is where you try and mask the poverty of your assertions by appeal to emotive populism.

    More ‘B’ team and even ‘C’ stuff I am afraid that can be seen for what it is.

  73. Slippery work Munsterview, your inference on corrupt governments was plain given the context.
    Nice of you to assume part ownership of Irish natural gas though, I’m sure they had you very specifically in mind personally when they agreed the bargain basement price for it.

    I don’t need to mask my arguments (….why on earth would I ?) or make baseless points in the manner you seem to be fairly well practiced at. I have no need to appeal to emotive populism and have absolutely no desire to. To the contrary, I’m comfortable in my own skin with my own arguments thanks all the same. I’m persuaded that that comment of yours reveals a good deal more about you than it could possibly ever do about me. Quite why you think I’d seek to make any such appeal or what the purpose of doing so would be, only you can explain. Or indeed not, as the case may be.

    Again, I’m comfortable allowing my ‘stuff’ to be seen for what it is. What else might it be seen for, after all, hmmm ?

  74. Nun

    “Who created the men’s ability to kill one another ? You would say God.”

    Yes, with the firm indication that heaven is more fun. Your argument seems to be to keep killing them until you win, implying that heaven is less fun.

    Faith goes a long way [that is, beyond learned stupidity].

  75. Word

    Fun ? On your knees in eternal grovelling, giving eternal thanks and praise to your dictator creator ? My, the fun you’ll have right enough. You must be a hoot on a night on the spree altogether, kid. You can hardly wait to die by the sounds of it but that’s common to most real believers, the oul’ secret death wish.

    “Your argument seems to be to keep killing them until you win”

    Kinda depends who you mean by ‘them’ but if you feel that’s my argument in the general sense then and without any consideration of the circmstances or the nature of one’s enemy then I’d say that that was the product of a mind which didn’t require any form of learning to attain an impressive standard of stupidity. If on the other hand you mean ‘kill or be killed’ by some fascistic theocratic piece of turd then sure, by all means. Would you be wanting the last rites before you turn the other cheek or momentarily afterwards would you think when your napper’s getting hacked off with a rusty sword ?

  76. AGlass…… : “Far be it from me to deny you the perpetual MOPE whinge…..”

    If my history snippets were not factual then somebody disputing these facts on their merits from the ‘grey matter brigade’ such as Turgon would immediately sally out from his metaphorical port in his metaphorical galley with all metaphorical guns blazing to metaphorical shoot my claims out of the water !

    All I have done is take these historical events out of academic circles where they are well known by experts in their own areas of expertise and shared them with all interested parties in a general exchange forum. On the Catholic / Nationalist side I get a constant feed back and appreciation from those interested in these things.

    When I detailed and commented on issues such as the Munster women rounded up and sold as sex slaves post the Cromwellian wars the reaction from Southern C of I background people was shock and sadness that such things could have occurred, here from the usual suspects on the Unionist side I got personal abuse and accusations of ‘mopery’ which since the message cannot be denied, is but an attack on the messenger !

    I have no doubt what so ever that the majority of slugger readers and posters can see this for what it is.

  77. Oracle,

    You espouse the cause of the Palestinians allegedly ethnically cleansed and their property expropriated by the Israelis.

    Would you, in like fashion, espouse the causes of: –

    The Jews ethnically cleansed and their property expropriated by Muslim countries after the Israeli War of Independence

    The Sudeten Germans and those from East Prussia ethnically cleansed and their property expropriated by various countries after the end of World War 2?

    The Palestinians refused to accept the UN mandated partition of Palestine – they and their allies went to war and lost and have never stopped complaining since.

    The Jews expelled from Muslim countries went to Israel and got on with their lives as, indeed, did the Sudeten and East Prussian Germans .. who didn’t go to Israel but were absorbed into Germany as it existed post war. They were also victims of war who, unlike the Palestinians, recognised their defeat and appreciated that no level or threat of violence could alter their situation.

    The Germans, like the Palestinians, denied the right to existence of their neighbours and threatened to exterminate them just like the Arabs have at various times, threatened to eliminate not only the state of Israerl but all of its inhabitants. Did not the Grand Mufti seek German help to eliminate the Jews of Palestine? And did not the assembled Arab armies that invaded the nascent state of Israel (established under UN mandate) promise to drive the Jews (many of whom were not European) into the sea and failed? Having elected trial by combat to settle their differences do you not think it’s about time the Palestinians recognised that they lost the war they either initiated or was fought on their behalf, stop living in the past, enlist American support and get a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza?

    The “status quo ante bellum” cannot be restored and those who think it can simply blight their own lives and those of others.

  78. Crubeen,

    Jesus at least try and answer a question instead of trying to bluff your way with bare-faced untruths which are nothing short of depressing but predictable zionist propaganda.

  79. Munster

    I feel your pain for what happened in the 1640’s mate !! I really do. Of course you take one snippet of history,that suits your mopery nicely. I wonder why the Lt. General came to ireland in the first place ?

    Quite what this has to do with the snuffing of friend Osama,One is at a loss to comprehend ?

    Oh I’m quite sure the vast majority of Sluggerites share your pain/anguish/trauma,about event that happened 500 years ago. Seems to be built into the irish national mindset,old dear.
    You’ll excuse me if I don’t share your perversion for constantly looking back.

    What happened,happened. Accept it. Get over it. learn to live with it !!

    This is 2011 fella,not 1642,not 1745,not 1916,1922 or even 1969…………..MMXI……….now,in the name of The Lord Protector,stop wallowing in mopery,and drag yourself up to date !!

    😉

  80. orc

    re the ‘ I want to be a suicide bomber’ Will you be exploding into action,anytime soon ?? 😉

  81. Oracle

    The SDLP long term future looks as bleak as an unfinished apartment complex on Dublin’s Quayside.
    They try hard to be pragmatic and inclusive and indeed go out of their way to observe the Political version of the Marquis of Queensbury rules in the squabble for the nationalist hearts and minds with Sinn Fein.

    “What they comprehensively fail to understand no matter how simply it is explained to them, or how often it’s explained to them, or for that matter how graphically it’s described to them is that they are in a” monster bitch-fight” and they just don’t have the ballax for a bitch-fight, especially one to the death!”

    “Only fools cowards and evil people believe in God”

    No, the good people believe in God. The fools, cowards and evil people pretend to believe in God. That’s the confusion. You’re just not able to tell the difference between the good and the evil people.

  82. A Glass of Hine

    1) That’s not my quote… I never said that I wanted to be a suicide bomber!
    If anyone can find that quote by me I send £200 to a charity of their choice.

    2) If I was going to be a suicide bomber about to “explode into action” I’d give you plenty of warning A Glass Of…… I’d ring your door bell 🙂

  83. The word

    Wow you must have a hard on for me you cutting and pasting all my posts even on threads they don’t belong!

    Better let the wife know she has some serious competition.. tell me can you cook.. iron shirts.. wash dishes. clean showers.. hoover.. clean windows properly..dust.. polish.. feed the children.. collect them from school.. do the shopping and flirt with the milkman??

    If so give me a shout because I’m fed up having to do it

  84. AGlass…: “….Oh I’m quite sure the vast majority of Sluggerites share your pain/anguish/trauma,about event that happened 500 years ago. Seems to be built into the irish national mindset,old dear……”

    This is a phenomena of cultures the world over, the oppressed do not forget, every death to them has a loss and meaning, the oppressors kill and move on, those they have killed are of no consequence to them.

    This creates two distinct perspectives among the descendants, remembrance of the oppressed and destroyed among their desendants is an act that can be carried out with loving pride. However the same act to those from oppressor stock arouse totally different emotions, respectful concern if they have empathy or contemptuous dismissal and indifference if they are cut from the same cloth as their ancestral slaughtering stock.

    Your ‘Old Dear’ remark would seem to indicate that you trot along the latter groove of history quite comfortably indeed !

    “….stop wallowing in mopery,and drag yourself up to date !!…..”

    Historians do not have the indulgence of ‘wallowing in mopery’ or any other emotion for that matter, they work within a science of peer group review methodology and have to observe the collective rules of that academic structure. What they produce must stand up to peer objective analysis !

    I in less than one hours time I will be sitting for the remainder of an all day conference on 18th, century history at a third level academic institution that will have heads of departments, lecturers and pHD post grads. I expect that I will be making my usual appreciated contribution to that gathering as I do to most such seminars.

    I get my historical facts from such places, others are more comfortable apparently in getting theirs from a Loyalist wall mural and associated common miss conceptions and mob perceptions of popular culture.

  85. Munsterview

    I can’t be alone in expressing genuine surprise, if not shock, that that’s the sort of company you keep. I’m sorry to say that I could never have guessed that from reading literally any of your contributions on this site, including the one I’m referring to now.

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