End of history: Or how I learned to start worrying and forget about my bombs
Carál Ní Chuilín, MLA and Gerry Kelly, MLA are both open and proud on their previous membership of a now defunct branch of Óglaigh na hÉireann. Both served prison sentences for bombing campaigns in areas mainly used by ‘civilians’ on behalf of that IRA.
When the most recent in a long line of British ‘Chief Constables’ controlling policing in the north of Ireland needed a comparative for the recent extended disruption on the Antrim Road, he choose the Omagh bomb.
He did not compare it with the bombs of the IRA the two north Belfast MLAs are linked with – when more accurate comparisons could have been found by the dozens.
Former IRA Volunteer Chuilan was asked directly (20mins in):
If you knew Caral, would you turn them in?
She answered with a simple and unspinnable:
Absolutely
Topic: Government, Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Ireland, Northern Ireland
241934 john brennan
I don’t wish to be disrespectful but you must surely be either relatively young and/or not have lived in NI very long if ever. I was alive at the time and don’t recognize the ‘working together’ piece at all – the unionist right as it was then had a very convenient excuse for not working with catholics (sic) – the ‘Ra – but it was an excuse and they had no intention of ‘responsibility sharing’ with non-unionists in any circumstances whatsoever any more than they did do before civil rights kicked off, before the provos were even in business at all.
A lot of quite mainstream unionists felt soiled, demeaned and belittled by even having to talk to ‘uppity taigs’ like Hume let alone less reasonable voices than his and people ought not be allowed to forget that.
Thank you, Fionn.
Dixie Elliot,
Are you seriously telling us that, in order to comply with your interpretation of some words written by dead Republicans you would do nothing to prevent an action which in your own words might lead to “disaster and innocent deaths” (by which I take it you mean “the deaths of innocents”)?
You go on to say, “We must persuade these groups that violence is counterproductive and only acts against the wishes of the people without whose support Republicanism is going no where.” Have you not considered that your attempts at persuasion (of which we see little evidence) have singularly failed and that if their violence flies in the face of the will of the very people on whose behalf they purport to act then they are little more than anti-social thugs who must be stopped by whatever means available within the constraints of law ?
Indeed by your inaction have you not surrendered the right to claim that one is Republican to any individual, however counterproductive his actions might be to that ethos? Is it the case in your theology that only those who kill, who court disaster, who put at risk the lives of innocents can claim the mantle of Republicanism? Because that it is what it appears to be.
And as for socialist/Marxist justification, I swear that the next little dissident twerp or cheerleader that I hear laying claim to Marxist principles I will belabour about the ears with Volume I of Capital, which will be closest he will ever come to any of its content I am sure.
So Rory, these dead Republicans, as you call them, were wrong and those who made a career out of carrying coffins which included that of Bobby Sands are right?
Are you saying that the way of persuasion is the way laid down by the British. To inform?
You use the very words often spewed out by the Stoops in the past to describe PIRA. Were the Stoops after all right in that for 30 years PIRA were flying in the faces of the people? Were they right Rory?
Did PIRA not kill, court disaster and put at risk the lives of innocents and for what the Sunningdale Agreement reworded? Is this what volunteers died for or did they die for, as is being claimed now, to bring down an Orange State that didn’t exist since the Brits replaced it with Direct Rule in ’73?
A typical shinner in that you try and label all who go against what can only be termed as Adamsism as cheerleaders of ‘Dissidents’. I’ve stated before and publicly in the press what I think of the continued use of armed struggle, not because I believe those who engage in it are as you describe them in such Thatcheresque wording as anti-social thugs or criminals, but because I believe they are wrong!
I am totally opposed to violence now because of how I saw that men who were unwilling to take up the gun actively encouraged young people to do so and walked over their graves into the very system they died to bring down. And how they used brave men as pawns to redirect the struggle.
So don’t give me lectures on violence mo chara, I know men and women who’s heads are fucked up with drink because of what they did in the past only to see nothing achieved. Do you honestly think I want my children going through more years wasted on war?
Of course the people want peace thats whats keeping them voting for PSF a party who rule over a wasteland of unemployment and growing poverty. Look at West Belfast, the most deprived area in the North, abandoned by Gerry.
The headlines in the Andytown News announced…’Invest NI Shame. West Belfast £19.86m East Belfast £773.9m’
What use was Gerry and the 5 PSF MLAs who are growing fat on peace processing to the people of West Belfast?
He cares so much he abandoned them to head carpetbagging South.
Violence is wrong because only those who direct it profit in the end.
As I’ve already stated I’ve publicly in the press and using my real name stated my opposition to the continued use of armed struggle, in the Derry Journal and most recently, after the bomb in the Derry bank, in the Sunday Tribune.
My friend have you publicly, while using your own name, called on people to inform?
Posting it up on Slugger doesn’t count and I await your answer.
Nunoftheabove
Yes I was around at the time at the time of the Sunningdale Stormont power-sharing government. In fact, 18 months earlier I was almost caught up in the Oxford St. bombs, on Bloody Friday.
During the 5 months period of the Sunningdale Govt 103 people were murdered in Ireland, the majority by the Provos. A couple of weeks before it collapsed (shot down by the Ra and shouted down by DUP and Loyalists), there was a 44 to 28 majority Stormont vote of confidence in the government. However, the anti – democrats’ tactics prevailed and we know the who and the why.
We also know that 37 years later some of those same anti-democrats are now combined in a sf/DUP Duopoly in Stormont.
When will they demand a referendum on Irish Unity?
The same old whinge of immaturity as ever, Dixie. The continuing violence of the dissidents is all the fault of those who choose to abandon violence, who sought and received the mandate of the people to pursue a peaceful road. We have to understand how hurt they were that they would no longer be allowed to shoot and bomb as they pleased and gently encourage them that there is a better way.
This same attitude is inherent in the statement, “I know men and women who’s heads are fucked up with drink because of what they did in the past.” Has it never occured to you that their heads might be “fucked up with drink” because they won’t stop drinking? Alcoholics Anonymous is open to all and only requires a willingness to be honest with oneself in order to find recovery. Patting alcoholics on the back and telling them that you understand their pain is not only useless it is decidedly cruel and only serves to enable their addiction and add to the pain of those within their destructive orbit. Further it helps to cushion them from the consequences of their actions which is just as you would have us deal with the dissidents and their actions which, in your own words (again), ” will merely lead to disaster and innocent deaths “.
If you would have arrested an alcoholic husband (whatever excuse he gives for his drinking) who beats up his wife and terrorises his children (as I trust you would), firstly to protect the innocent victims and secondly for his own good then surely it is also incumbent upon a member of the nationalist community to help arrest those who would create disaster and the death of innocents because they are drunk on the grievance of failure and the misuse of words they have imbued.
Fionn,
The reason your 3ish post was awaiting moderation is that, if a simple commenter like ourselves has more than 2 links in a post, the site’s programme will embargo it, automatically.
Rory Carr are you honestly a shinner because if you are your posts are an indication of the absolute disdain your party now holds for those who actually did the fighting yet who no longer tow the party line.
Your rant about alcoholics might have papered over your failure to answer my first and last questions regarding ‘the dead Republicans and did you publicly call on people to tout. However it does show your intolerance to people less fortunate than ourselves, who suffer from an illness called alcoholism. This is a form of bigotry as bigotry also covers an intolerance of various mental disorders. Bracketing alcoholics as people likely to beat up wives and terrorise children is no different to saying all Protestants are loyalist supporters or all Catholics are IRA supporters.
Thats what I noticed about you Rory you tend to hide your lack of answers at the end of a very long road which goes in the opposite direction.
You say people who choose to abandon violence Rory. When did the leadership choose to abandon violence and when did they tell the IRA rank and file they were abandoning violence?
The 80s perhaps when Gerry and Fr Reid were visiting Haughey and Hume or as late as when Gerry said the IRA hadn’t gone away even?
Oh and Rory regarding the party line, which is pushed by the likes of yourself, that all Republicans who disagree with Adamsism and the GFA are ‘Dissidents’ or cheerleaders for continued violence. That logic is no different to the bigots who claimed the Black Civil Rights campaigners in 1960s America were communists.
Yet, just as you would continue to enable drunkards in their alcoholism by sympathising with them, by “understanding their pain”, so you would continue to enable those engaged in violent acts because you understand and sympathise with their motives. And, as always, it is somebody else’s fault. Always this avoidance of taking responsibility for one’s own actions.
Immaturity, that characteristic that is held in common by all alcoholics seems also to be a defining characteristic among dissidents. Time to grow up and admit that you are wrong, that the consequences of your thinking and your actions will (as you so eloquently put it yourself), ” merely lead to disaster and innocent deaths “.
I hate to intrude on an intra republican squabble but I note Dixie Elliott’s now opposition to violence is all because of its ill effects on the perpetrators: not a word for the victims. Much whataboutery for the coffins of the dead “volunteers” not a thought for the innocent victims.
It is, however, fair that s/he notes that all the volunteers did was to help Adams and co to grow fat from the “peace process”. It is not quite Sunningdale, however: there is one important difference; the republicans have power themselves. Indeed Dixie that is what the volunteers died for and murdered for: to give Gerry and co power. Do not, however, expect many of the rest of us to sympathise with your self pity. Most of us quite enjoy laughing at it.
Rory again your rant about alcoholics is nothing more than an attempt to cover up the fact that you can’t answer any of the questions I put to you above.
Were the dead Republicans, as you referred to them, wrong?
Were the Stoops after all right in that for 30 years PIRA were flying in the faces of the people?
What use was Gerry and the 4 PSF MLAs who are growing fat on peace processing to the people of West Belfast?
You say people who choose to abandon violence Rory. When did the leadership choose to abandon violence and when did they tell the IRA rank and file they were abandoning violence?
The 80s perhaps when Gerry and Fr Reid were visiting Haughey and Hume or as late as when Gerry said the IRA hadn’t gone away you know?
And finally Rory have you or will you be writing to the press using your real name to call on people to inform?
Lets leave the alcoholics alone and answer the questions, especially the last one.
Turgon of course there were innocent victims on both sides and I have no problem in saying that. Not one life was worth taking to put PSF in power if thats what you call it.
And I say not one life whether it be a mother or a squaddie can justify where we are today.
Oh I know you’ll swoop down like a vulture and pick holes out of what I’ve just said but personally I couldn’t give a toss my friend.
You said…
“It is not quite Sunningdale, however: there is one important difference; the republicans have power themselves. Indeed Dixie that is what the volunteers died for and murdered for: to give Gerry and co power.”
As I said, what PSF have in Stormont is not power but it is more of a caretaking role in that they are administering Indirect Rule. They have no power that lays in London.
No volunteer died so that Gerry and co. could have power thats nonsense, it’s as nonsensical as saying they died to remove an Orange State which was shut down by the Brits in 1973.
But lets not forget Turgon that the bigots in the DUP stirred the pot that led to killing by loyalists for years. They had no problem sharing a platform with the likes of Billy Wright had they?
But thats whataboutery isn’t it, something you accuse me off, yet indulge in yourself. The hypocrisy’s amazing!!
You see this is the old Unionist mentality that has shackled the Shinners well into the system forcing them to robotically do what the SDLP did before them.
Not just condemn but call on people to inform and help the PSNI.
The sackcloth and ashes attitude which even the Shinners are now indulging in, right down to the likes of Rory Carr.
It’s not good enough to say that armed struggle is counterproductive or that it will achieve nothing and likely lead to disaster, which by the way Turgon, means the killing of innocents.
Oh no we must stand firmly shoulder to shoulder with the DUP and the Chief constable and call Republicans traitors which people should inform on to the proper authorities.
We must prove we are worthy time and time again and be ready when the time comes to prove our loyalty to the state.
I’m sorry but I’m not part of the system nor shackled to it and no anonymous Unionist on an internet forum will have me wearing sackcloth and ashes.
Violence will achieve nothing therefore it’s wrong and if thats not good enough for the Unionists and other assorted hypocrites I really couldn’t give a monkeys fuck as they say.
You are not required to wear sackcloth and ashes, Dixie, but it might be helpful, if you really are opposed to the violent campaign of disgruntled and disloyal former IRA activists, that you add your voice to those of the elected representatives of the nationalist community in condemnation.
Besides by turning them in you’d only be doing them a favour as they inevitably end up turning their guns only upon each other as they continue to fall out over the purity of each other’s commitment and the division of spoils.
For the record – I am not a member of Sinn Féin.
So Rory you can’t answer my questions then. Case closed!!
Rory
Could you explain to me how they are disloyal? Is it because they didn’t sell out and stick on suits and ties etc. and do the Brits job for them? Now THAT’S disloyal!
fordperfect
Aren’t the people who stick on suits and ties etc. simply doing (to varying standards) the fairly limited job that they people who elect them require them to do and demand that they do ? If they are, then that might be many things but disloyalty wouldn’t be one of them….unless you’re referring to fidelity to a cause which is at best ambivalent about any necessity for popular support of any description in order to kill people, civilians included. In other words, some of them have transitioned from elitism to consensus – have you ?
Nun
Transitioned from elitism? Are you having a laugh? These are the same people (SF) who told us for years, that the only way to get rid of the Brits was by armed struggle. Is it any wonder that there are still people who listened to that line of reasoning, still engaged in armed conflict. Consensus, still the same people who told us for years that the six counties was an illegitimate and illegal state. By the way, I still don’t recognise the six counties as a country. Just to finish, do you actually live in Ireland?
fordperfect
Well that’s kinda my point – they told you things for years and then they changed their actions to accord with the circumstances (When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?”) – does that entitle them to any expectation that you should continue to believe in them ? More to the point, why did you choose to believe them in the first place or did you form those opinions all on your own ? There are credulous folks all around us, of course. Mercifully most of them aren’t armed enough, pathetic enough or pompous enough to tell the rest of us how we should live without bothering to ask us how we feel about it or seeking some form of legitimate popular support to kill folks based on those opinions – I’d call that elitism, wouldn’t you ?
Not sure why you think the place I live in is of any relevance or interest – might it alter your opinons on what I’m saying in any way ?
Nun
I didn’t say I believed everything they said. You said “There are credulous folks all around us, of course. Mercifully most of them aren’t armed enough, pathetic enough or pompous enough to tell the rest of us how we should live without bothering to ask how we feel about it or seeking some form of legitimate popular support to kill folks based on those opinions-I’d call that elitism, wouldn’t you”? I would indeed. And you just described the American administration to a T. and the problem with them is, they are armed to the teeth, including nuclear weapons (the last US president couldn’t even pronounce the word “nuclear” properly).
fordperfect
Glad to hear you oppose the so-called dissidents on the same basis that I do – bad guys with useless politics; I’m not not sure what the relevance of the US State Department is to the layabout cornerboy self-loathers of the so-called dissident groups though and I’m very very sure you don’t know why you’re sure either. Perhaps you’ve been watching too many of those hopeless Michael Moore movies again lately little fellow lol ?
Nun
Oh, I’m very, very sure of the intentions of the US government, world police force and world dominance (and I don’t have to watch Michael Moore films to know that!) wee lad, lol. Unlike most Americans I read books and prefer not to tune into the “mainstream media” to listen to or watch a load of shit being served up!
fordprefect
Your interest in or knowledge of international affairs is admirably well concealed – I’ll give you that.
Bit of a ‘Truther’ by any chance LOL ?
Nun
Obviously not as well concealed as yours! LOL
fordperfect
If you wanna go there, let’s go kid – just a small piece of advice before you leap at the chance though – you’ll need to do a wee bit better than the world domination theories of Tommy Sheridan if you do though – even layabout reactionary so-called dissidents wouldn’t be that impressed by him or his mate the verminous jihadi ‘resitance’ -supporting George Galloway so if that’s your level, I’ll decline the invitation in advance on the basis that I already have a life, thanks.
Nun
I have a life, Coward!
fordprefect
So that WAS the type of debate you had in mind ? Aye, thought so mucker. Oh I’m sure there’s an Eirigi blog or equally illiterate self-pitying RSF website you can entertain yourself with, if so – much more your level. I undertand that the bold boys of Eirigi are still creaming themselves over the recent message of solidarity they received from the moribund revolting Cuba regime (surely the so-called dissidents should be expressing solidarity with the Cuban political prisoners instead, no ?) and are still hollering from the rooftops about the poor wee oppressed imperialist, homophobic, totalitarian, racists and sectarian suicide bombers in Iraq and Afghanistan, pepared to kill themelves and their religious rivals such is the grave offence taken at the prospect of a bill of rights and a democratic form of government.
Long live the caliphate comrades – viva Hoxha’s Albanian fatherland lol !