Setting the unionist cat amongst the cultural pigeons: Nelson McCausland on why unionists ignore culture at their peril
The Gransha Suite at La Mon Hotel had obviously been packed with DUP Conference delegates for the previous session on Challenges in Policing when I eventually arrived earlier this evening. PSNI Chief Constable Matt Baggott was still giving a few interviews to the press while a Lambeg Drum was being set up on the other side of the stage.
Nelson McCausland was up next, addressing DUP delegates as a dedicated follower of culture and MLA, rather than as Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure.
He started by defining culture as “cultural traditions, heritage and sport”, saying that these were the things that “give us a sense of place, a sense of community and a sense of belonging”.
For the past two years, children at some schools have been learning the fyffes fifes and drums. Some pupils from Belfast Boys Model School then got up to demonstrate their skills.
At this point turn the volume of your computer up loud and click play below. (MP3)
Nelson’s pitch was that a city like Belfast was “no longer an industrial powerhouse” so “we need to look in new directions for the economy”. He singled out creative industries, cultural tourism and cultural industries as examples.
There is an argument that UK and Ireland are now so reliant on service industries and the knowledge economy that we’re doomed. In a post-recession economic wasteland, people who can produce things will be king. Thinkers and tour guides will be forming a queue at the expanding number of dole offices that will be sprouting up on street corners like Starbucks franchises. So Nelson’s mileage may vary …
What brings people to Northern Ireland for a holiday? It’s not going to be the sunshine.
Nelson suggested that more could be made of existing tourist sites to draw in foreign visitors. He pointed to America’s love for 7th President Andrew Jackson and suggested that the Andrew Jackson Cottage near Carrickfergus should erect a flagpole, fly the Stars and Stripes and advertise to Americas onboard cruise ships as they sail into Belfast Lough to dock for some shopping and sightseeing. The speculated that the Ulster-Scots Academy [which I think is the same body as the Ullans Academy?] could “produce a exhibition and an experience that is accurate, authentic and entertaining”.
Successful Ulster golfers bring overseas business to NI golf courses. Calling it “Team GB” means that we miss the opportunity to be included in the branding – Nelson favours switching to “Team UK”.
James Gamble, co-founder of Procter and Gamble, was born near Enniskillen and educated in Portora Royal School. Why don’t we connect with the Ulster diaspora?
The lecture then changed to look at Irish culture. Rather than looking for best practice and successful ideas from that sphere, Nelson quickly turned to critique the politicisation of Irish culture, going back to the late 19th century Gaelic revival and quoted a line from a 1982 speech by a Sinn Fein cultural officer Patrick McCreevy who said
“Every phrase you learn [in Irish] is a bullet in the freedom struggle.” (Padrig O’Maoicraoibhe)
It’s a subject Nelson has touched on before, including in a letter to the Belfast Telegraph in July 2007. Sinn Fein’s “cultural war” is serving to strengthen the nationalists community and at the same tie undermining unionist community (by demeaning unionist culture and trying “to convince unionists that they are really Irish).
With a decade of centenaries just around the corner, he challenged how the Northern Irish angle of the 1916 Easter Rising [link to a post on Nelson's blog] might be celebrated in 2016. He mischievously explained that the northern rebellion consisted of Denis McCullough the president of the Irish Republican Brotherhood taking 150 followers on the train to Tyrone. Reaching Dungannon they met Patrick McCartan, leader of the local Tyrone volunteers who wanted reassurances that the Pope had given his blessing to the rising and that German guns had arrived in Kerry. They turned around and headed back to Belfast. McCullough accidentally shot himself in the hand on the journey home. “Not much to celebrate” suggested Nelson.
Within the “broad church” of unionism, Nelson identified historical characters worth celebrating: Francis Hutcheson, Lord Kelvin and Amy Carmichael. He quoted the 1975 Bullock Report and its assertion that “no pupil should be expected to … live and act as if school and home represent two totally separate and different cultures which have to be kept firmly apart”. Catholic schools and their embedded cultural teaching seemed to be the one area where Nelson felt unionist could learn something. After all, if a school in a nationalist area could put on a play about Robert Emmet (an Irish rebel) …
For any cultural or linguistic tradition to thrive, it needs to be in two places. It needs to be in the school where it is affirmed and validated and passed on; but it also needs to be there on the media. And the question is are we getting a fair share of cultural expression from the community that we belong to in terms of BBC, UTV and the other channels. There are issues there we take up and are still taking up with the BBC.”
He finished by referring to the lack of unionist cultural content in the Belfast Festival at Queens.
Too often we have allowed our cultural traditions to be marginalised and excluded. And in many ways there is still a cultural establishment where unionists are under-represented and therefore it is easy for those organising events programmes festivals to forget about us or to ignore us. And that’s something we need to challenge.
As an example, he pointed to the absence of crowd-drawing gospel concerts from the festival programme. [Update - Nelson has now blogged about cultural inclusivity and gospel music in particular over on The Minister's Pen blog.]
Was quality an issue? In an ad-libbed remark, he went on to say
I did point out that one of the star turns in the Queens Festival this year was Hugo Duncan. So I reckoned that if Hugo Duncan was of high enough standard for the Queens Festival I think we should be all right.
Guess who’s not going to get a Christmas card from his Uncle Hugo this year!
Overall, quite a different approach to the spirit of openness and shared exploration voiced by Nelson’s party colleague and ex-leader Lord Bannside at the Columbanus Celebration earlier this week.
The full audio (MP3) from the 35 minute session is available if you’re interested.
Topic: Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Ireland, Northern Ireland
Narrow minded sectarian horseshit when it comes to Irish culture that exists and flourishes in Northern Ireland.
Unionist culture needs more honest recognition on the entire Ireland but a only witless fool thinks denigrating t’other is a good place to start
“He finished by referring to the lack of unionist cultural content in the Belfast Festival at Queens.” See, I still don’t understand what “unionist cultural content” might actually entail.
“So, Duke ?”
“Yeah?”
“Ummm are you a Protestant?”
“Maybe…”
“Well…if you are, can we tag you as “unionist cultural content”?”
“F*** off.”
“Right, that didn’t go well…who’s next…?”
“Try yer man, Hannon …”
“Errrr…Neil…we’re putting on this festival, right? We need to big up the Prods a bit…to keep the Minister happy…I know you wrote that Sunrise song and everything, but could you tone down the ecumenical thing a tad…?”
Etc.
See, I mention these two characters, because if there’s a side to Norn Irn culture worth celebrating, they’re part of it. Fife and drum, bodhran and uillean mean nothing to me, and many of those younger than me. Some of us identify more with a decent Fender played well at the Oh Yeah centre, by an up and coming band, than we do with…what’s this again…Ullans?
We’ve allowed this strange, smile-less, bearded little man to become Gauleiter for Culture. And he really hasn’t got a clue.
See, I read this: “he singled out creative industries”. Then I follow a few links to DeCAL, and the Arts Council sites, and see “funding closed”, as it has been for most of the last 12 months. And I really despair about democracy. Because if it brings us Nelson McCausland as a Minister for Culture, we’re really in trouble. I won’t even start on DETI, and the rudderless Warspite that it’s become when it comes to creative industries.
I’m not suggesting any sort of apartheid here – pure heritage versus pseudo-yoof culture. Fife and drum versus drum and bass. I understand that local “culture”, whatever it may be, requires some form of promotion and protection. I even get that he was playing to his own audience this evening, as opposed to being Minister for Jollies.
But there’s a wider picture here; a bigger and more stratified audience, many layers of which do not see our cultural future being based on drums – well, maybe they do, but the drums that they want are made by Mapex. And they certainly aren’t represented in the thrust of the presentation which Alan has reported on this evening.
By the way, I had to google the three people worthy of “celebration”.
Er……….is there a deliberate mistake in the Nelson McCausland slide show?
Has he not mixed up the quotes.
Surely it would have been the Sinn Féin Cultural guy who would have spoken about seven Gaelic Leaguers in O’Connell Street. (ie The 1916 Easter Rising)and presumably the reference to words and bullets was spoken by PH Pearse in 1914.
…….which would of course be completely different.
At present there is an Ulster-Scots Academy steering group, which is finalising a business case and a programme of work. This is not the same as the Ullans Academy.
The quotes were indeed attributed to the right people and the Sinn Fein quote was taken from a Sinn Fein publication.
“Catholic schools and their embedded cultural teaching seemed to be the one area where Nelson felt unionist could learn something.”
“Embedded cultural teaching” (that’s a euphemism right?) is the one area the state sector has got absolutely nothing to “learn” from the Catholic schools.
On one hand, Peter Robinson is very courageously taking on the educational segregationalists whilst simultaneously Nelson attempts to solidify the “protestantism” or “Ulsterisation” of “our” schools? Not a consistent approach.
Thank you Mr McCausland. Its a genuine cross community experience that youre familiar with PH Pearse and I am not.
Nelson McCausland states at the DUP conference “the northern rebellion consisted of Denis McCullough the president of the Irish Republican Brotherhood taking 150 followers on the train to Tyrone. Reaching Dungannon they met Patrick McCartan, leader of the local Tyrone volunteers who wanted reassurances that the Pope had given his blessing to the rising and that German guns had arrived in Kerry. They turned around and headed back to Belfast. McCullough accidentally shot himself in the hand on the journey home.”
It is correct to say that the northern end of the 1916 Rising consisted of little more than a pointless trip to Coalisland that went no further but that was deliberately to avoid stirring up Ulster. Pearse had earlier tried to keep the Irish volunteer guns landed at Howth out of the north.
The leaders of the Rising did not consider the Protestant question overly. Some like Casement had nonsensical views about the Unionists turning away from Britain, misreading their conditional approach to the UK. Some obviously had Ulster and particularly Tyrone connections like Clarke, McDermott and Connolly, and the key figure Joseph McGarrity in the US, but the Rising was essentially postponed for 50 years here until Unionism was weakened by its failure to assimilate modernity.
Our 1920s Troubles were mercifully brief, if bloody as opposed in length to the absurdly long version form 1968.
Not too sure if McCullough was shot or that McCartan was such a papal Catholic. He was somewhat left wing and a medical doctor ending his career as a senator and Clann na Poblachta presidential candidate in the 1940s. McCullough was briefly a Donegal TD and both were sent to the US as envoys.
Nelson is absolutely correct in that our history can attract visitors while our conflict should continue through discussion and re-assessment of the role of Republicans, in particular. The new book by Gerard Murphy on the killings of Cork Protestants in 1922 and their consequent disappearance from the city is particularly apposite.
I am a Unionist.
Culturally I feel as close to a caveman as I feel to Nelson’s definition of Unionist culture and identity.
This appears a crude attempt to do what the Shinners have done to Nationalism. Create a sense of a cultural monolith – you cant be a unionist / nationalist if you don’t believe what we do and don’t vote DUP/SF
Unionism is a political attachment not a culture.
Ulster Scotch is a distinct brand of Irish culture that if marketed the right way could be a great success, sadly its got idiots like the the Minister for No Culture McCausland involved and that idiot Laird of Artigarvan
“Sinn Fein’s “cultural war” is serving to strengthen the nationalists community and at the same tie undermining unionist community (by demeaning unionist culture and trying “to convince unionists that they are really Irish)”.
I know he wrote this bit 3 years ago but it is wrong now as it is wrong then.
I am unionist, Protestant and of Scottish lineage but I am still Irish.
Otherwise Nelson is maintaining that I am still a Planter and that Irishness is only the Gaelic and Catholic variety.
I am totally comfortable with my Irishness and the fact that there are many shades of Green – all of which are legitimate and to be valued.
However I do agree with his efforts and Lord Lairds to promote a culture in Northern Ireland that is not solely Gaelic and Catholic – however that doesnt mean we are less Irish.
This is reinforced by the fact that the “Scots – Irish” in the US are refferred to as that – they are not Scottish and they are not Irish but they are people who arrived in th US from Ireland having a couple of hundred years before that likely arrived in Ireland from Scotland.
The Ulster Protestant has long since expanded the definition of Irish and that fact should be embraced by both communities as opposed to one trying to push it out and another trying to pull it away.
100% agree with you here John.
Culture should have nothing to do with your political or religious leanings, culture should be embracing where your from and its customs.
I myself am of scottish and irish stock and proud of both.
I have to say that I disagree ….it should be what you define it as. If religion or race is your thing then fine. It’s your choice. I dont object to Nelson’s expression of what he sees as Prod / Unionist culture ….I just don’t want it foisted on me or any suggestion that its something i MUST aspire to to be a true Unionist.
APA
I would say that your political leanings should not be dependent on your cultural or religious background.
Not consistent at all and, as such, profoundly depressing. The cultural nonsense from McCausland in and of itself is embarassing in the same way as tall tales told by a smelly, drunken uncle at a wedding are, not least as they’re so transparently false and nobody pays any attention to them and he forgets ever telling them. The education echoes of his counter-part O’Dowd though is troubling though and reminds us that the DUPes have a very long way still to travel.
John East Belfast
Should not be and more importantly do not for very large numbers of decent citizens. Certainly not for those of us who haven’t surrendered our powers of critical thought in favour of sinister religious superstition or invest their political aspirations in hopless chancers and demagogues or in the dangerous nationalisms upon which they depend.
I personally have a very wide definition of culture, and this thread has opened up a good debate on the subject. Nelsons version of “Unionist/Protestant/Ulster-Scots” culture comes in for ridicule from many, and although very real and genuine to some in reality it is only a small section of the community.
I think the trap he and many others have fallen into (I include myself in this) is having viewed the central role “Irish” culture has played in the Nationalist identity and how it has been used as a weapon against “the Brits” he is trying to mimic its development over the last 100 yrs, not entirely unsuccessfully I might add.
BUT, there is a big problem, it is 90% manufactured and only 10% real, and before you disagree Nelson, I talking about what still passes for “Irish” culture, including the music, art and sports, I don’t think the broad community wants to go down that route, but possibly feel they have no choice as a reaction against the Irish cultural attack, and while those things unique and special need celebrated and encouraged, but never should they be exagerated to the extent they become a lie to fight a lie.
John,
I agree entirely that you have the complete right to self define as Irish and do not accept Nelson McCausland suggesting otherwise, However, I trust you accept that Nelson is not Irish and neither am I nor many other unionists. That you self identify as Irish makes you no less an Ulsterman unionist, Protestant etc. However, the fact that I do not self define as Irish means that I am no less an Ulsterman, unionist Protestant etc.
We all have the right to self define on this issue: Nelson cannot impose a description on you nor you on him.
Turgon
If you dont define yourself as Irish then what are you ?
The notion that Irish culture (to generalize, for a purpose) was created by the republican movement shouldn’t be allowed to pass unobstructed. It certainly has been deployed, pushed, promoted, used and coloured by them as it was politically expedient for them to emphasize separateness. Provo Pearse-ism, if you will.
That said, as a culture its constituent parts always enjoyed subscription from people north and south for a very long time before Adams and company first reached for their spray cans and Irish dictionaries in the 70s. It therefore has and always has had an integrity of its own and has been dishonestly accused of being an entirely adopted and vulgar two fingered gesture to unionists and/or the British. Most of this is based in unionist ignorance and is commonly expressed in straightforwardly sectarian terms.
Aspects of McCausland’s empty, lean-to ‘superprod’ package are quite simply laughable – others, whole-cloth fabrications. More seriousness and insulting however is his attempts to construct an identity to which ‘proper’ Protestant Unionists will be enthusiastically conscripted. Much the same has been tried before, attempts being made to create an actual formal and fairly precise equivalence between northern Protestantism and Orangeism, for example – this is entirely sinister and insulting to a great many Protestants and Unionists.
McCausland is a convinced (indeed, stubborn and intolerant) creationist, uber christian and a firm believer in the theory that northern protestants are direct descendents of the lost tribes of Israel (wasn’t Robert Bradford a member of the Society For Proclaiming that Britain is Israel , now that I recall it?). A man with an imagination quite this vivid should surely be able to generate cultural ideas slightly more colourful than running the flying the stars and stripes up a flagpole in Carrickfergus, no ?
“attempts being made to create an actual formal and fairly precise equivalence between northern Protestantism and Orangeism, for example”
Nun, would you also agree that the equivalence between Catholicism and Gaelic Games is also sinister and insulting? Here in Tyrone when the county team is doing well the Protestant community comes under quite some pressure to go along with that culture, I can only imagine how intense it must be for Catholics who do not normally identify with the GAA.
As for “Irish Culture” it has been used as a weapon long before Adams, the GAA as mentioned above is probably much more active on that front than SF will ever be.
John,
I regard myself as British, from Ulster, a unionist and a Protestant as well as lots of other things: a father, an evangelical pretty fundamentalist Christian, someone interested in history and reading. I could go on and on. I do not fundamentally self define by my nationality but it is part of my identity and that nationality, rationality etc. is as mentioned above.
However, I in no way question you self defining as Irish (amongst other things). I am a little taken aback that the tenor of your reply (maybe I am mistaken in this) implies that it is odd that I am not Irish.
sorry not rationality: regionality. The spell checker baulked at regionality and I mistakenly agreed to its correction.
Turgon
You must have picked up something in the tenor of my reply that I had not meant – I was simply interested.
However as you know being British is that you are a citisen of the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland – ie England. Scotland, Wales and N.Ireland. Of course the latter is a more recent construct and used to consist of the whole Ireland.
I doubt a 100 years ago an Irish Unionist would have had any trouble describing himself as Irish – Carson being the greatest example.
in my opinion a Unionist should appreciate the distinct nature of our United Kingdom and its constituent parts.
Indeed I cant see how you can call yourself a British citisen but not ascribe to one of them ?
I dont see why any unionist would have a problem with that ?
Turgon, I am usually happy enough to call myself Irish, because I live on and was born on the Island called Ireland, its a geographic fact, my nationality is British, that is a political fact, my ethnic origin is overwhelmingly of Scottish origin but settled in Ulster for around 300 yrs (with a wee bit of Heugenot to spice things up) , that’s a fact, my native language, and that of my ancestors for many generation is English, with an influence of Ulster-Scots from East Donegal, fact. My religion is the Presbyterian version of Protestant Christianity, that is my choice and background both. I am also a Unionist by choice, Orangeman, historian and loads of other things.
Will anyone say I am any less Irish because of any of the above things?
DR,
No you need be none the less Irish because of any of those and no one should regard you as less Irish because of them. However, although I share many of the same characteristics I would not regard myself as Irish. That is not better or worse; just different.
Drumlins Rock
It’s not quite like that, at least in my experience. Also, I would say straight away that I’m never comfortable with any attempt to counterpose arguments about/with the GAA with those on Orangeism – there isn’t any obvious equivalence between the two and I must say that I find that arguments suggesting that there is are more normally made by opportunist unionists politicians or by lumpen loyalists who call Talkback on slow news days.
It would seem laugh-out-loud ridiculous to me for example to be told either that I or anyone else couldn’t be considered a ‘proper catholic’ or Irish person if I didn’t play GAA sports, or wasn’t interested in them other aspects of GAA or knee-deep in an earnest appreciation of the language.
Catholics who have only at most a nodding acquaintance with GAA, or who would openly prefer soccer, wouldn’t in my experience feel anything by way of disapproval or pressure from the GAA-ites beyond harmless pub slagging simply because they weren’t interested in it or took no heed of it. There are of course some folks who would be a little sniffy if you preferred to talk about Celtic or Chelsea than the Kerry Minors’ semi-final performance in their company but sure there are snobs in most aspects of life, sport perhaps more than most.
I agree that Irish culture has been used as a weapon long pre-Adams but you would really need to review the history of the GAA to understand its substantial significance in the cultural, social and political life of the country.
When you say that the Protestant community in your part of Tyrone comes under some sort of pressure to go ‘along with it’ when the Tyrone team is doing well, what form does this pressure take and when you indicate that it would be easier to go along with it than not to, what do you believe is expected of you, assuming that you were minded to comply with that expectation (e.g. beyond not complaining about county coloured flags nailed up on lamp-posts etc) ?
Turgon
you realy dont seem to be getting the Union bit of being a unionist
I think Id have to agree that Catholics in Tyrone tend to identify with the county team regardless of having an overt interest in GAA. Its very basic.
Speaking from my own experience, I always considered myself a fairly lukewarm (if not tepid) GAA supporter in the 1970s. In part thats because Im from Antrim which alas has a very poor record and does not punch its weight at national level.
All kinds of complex reasons….theres a division in the Hurlers (me) and Footballers. A north antrim/south antrim (Belfast divide) and traditionally Belfast clubs can never get along anyway. And of course Soccer is much bigger.
A recipe for poor performances.
So generally speaking I only ever got one or two outings a year to see the county team, although memorably that included an All Ireland Final.
Paradoxically living now in a hot bed of GAA activity and having two sons who played and a grandson starting out, it is very much part of the broader community in Armagh.
So I get several outings a year.
The Antrim AND Armagh thing. I dont feel anyone is pressured……to support a team. Its a bit like a mini-world cup every year. You dont have to actually know anything about the sport to get the shirt on.
Of course many are lukewarm. The “Frankies” in the Antrim crowd (and possibly I am one) are dismissed by hardcore Antrim fans who never miss a game. But then thats only about a dozen people…..uber fans.
The way it works is that its “my” school, “my” village, “my” county. …and yes “my” nation.
The nature of the sport means that everybody knows somebody on the county team. The great joy is that you can say “oh I know him” or increasingly “I know his dad”
John,
I have not mentioned the union apart from in passing. This discussion has been about being Irish. I am not Irish; you are. That is fine. I have no problem with that. I am a unionist with different views on a number of issues to you; you are also a unionist. All that is fine. I do not set any test to decide if you are “getting the Union bit of unionist” I do not need to pass any of your tests to be a “proper” unionist. Indeed I find that last comment a bit insulting. Maybe try accepting that I “get” unionist just as much, not more nor less, than you.
I have entirely respected your unionism, Irishness and all the other things you have self defined as without criticism or complaint. I would regard doing anything else as the height of arrogance. I wish you could extend the same courtesy to me.
Turgon
I just cant see how you can define yourself as British but deny being English, Scots, Welsh or Irish – especially when I assume you were born and raised in the latter ?
Here in Tyrone when the county team is doing well the Protestant community comes under quite some pressure to go along with that culture,
As I come from the same area as you DR, I would be interested to hear about this pressure which is exerted on ‘your community’ ? I suppose the presence of mayor O’Neill up the town for switching on the christmas lights this evening was ‘pressure’
John,
I cannot see why the fact that I do not self define as Irish means that I do not get the Union bit of being a unionist. Indeed I regard that remark as a bit insulting: something you have failed to address.
I was born in Ulster (in Coleraine as it happens). That does not make me Irish. I regard myself as a British person from Ulster. Despite having lived for a few years in GB and indeed having travelled fairly extensively in various parts of the world, I have met practically no one who objected to or queried my self definition. Indeed on what we tend to call “the mainland” (I know some nationalists do not like that term so I tend to try to avoid it) most people I have ever met automatically assume that I would not regard myself as Irish.
I know it is probably irrelevant to you but the Belfast Agreement (not that I support it) formally allowed me to self define in whatever way I choose. The fact that you cannot understand my choice is frankly irrelevant. I have not queried your self definition: maybe you should allow me to self define as I choose. Does my self definition threaten you in some way? Yours does not threaten me.
If you want to be Irish I am entirely happy for you. I do not question or doubt it. I do not regard it as preventing you also being British. I on the other hand am British and am not Irish. That is neither a good nor a bad thing: it is just the way it is.
I’m a nationalist and dont identify with the GAA at all.
I can only talk about the area in which I live but the GAA to me has always meant conservatism and nepotism. I’m amused that some unionists think that it is or has been somehow the IRA at play. It isnt. The most radical thing the GAA are ever gonna do is nail a sports flag to a telegraph pole. If that worries anyone then perhaps its time for unionists to think how nationalists feel when the towns in which we are a majority are covered in loyalist paraphenalia during the marching season.
I want to pick up on just a couple of the points made above. My intention is also to do a series of posts on my own blog on the theme Culture Matters and this will afford an opportunity to consider in more depth the things I touched on at the conference.
1. Identity is multi-layered – I have a national identity, a regional identity, a cultural identity, a religious identity, a political identity, a local identity and others as well. In my case I am British, an Ulsterman, an Ulster-Scot, an evangelical Protestant, a Belfast man …
2. We all have a right to define ourselves and to have our own combination of identities. As such there is nothing to prevent someone being British and Irish, whether you have that as a regional or a cultural identity.
3. The strategy of Irish cultural absorption was noted by Brendan Clifford: ‘This is the end part of a strategy which was worked out by some very respectable supporters of the Provisional IRA in the republic in 1970-71 … A process which would end with the people who are now unionists being indoctrinated into the nationalist culture.’ [Parliamentary Despotism - John Hume's Aspiration, January 1986]
4. Cultural absorption has long been an ambition of Irish nationalists. It was expressed a long time ago by by David Patrick Moran (1871-1936) as ‘The foundation of Ireland is the Gael and the Gael must be the element that absorbs.’ [The Philosophy of Irish Ireland]
Nelson,
Thank you for that. Some may try to argue about points 3 and 4 (though I would very largely agree). Points 1 and 2 are pretty much unarguable by anyone who would regard themselves as a democrat.
nah, its more like being the only guy in the council leisure centre Gym not wearing a GAA top, or the number of businesses that display signed Tyrone tops in prominent locations on their premises, or when you say where you from coming up to finals or whatever the automatic presumption “are you going to the match on Sunday?”
My point exactly…its a mixed up bag and your choice of combination – cultural /political pick and mix
qwerty, do you ever feel under pressure to go with the flow and cheer on your club/county?
its a bit ironic that those policies have been completely counter productive on the whole.
Nun, I’m more than happy to equate the two organisations, they perform similar roles within the two communities. Maybe you would really need to review the history of the Orange Order to understand its substantial significance in the cultural, social and political life of the country.
See my reply above to RS.
Of course everyone in NI has a perfect civil right to call himself Irish, British, or both, or to be a citizen of the UK, ROI, or both. That said, respecting someone else’s right to decide whether he is culturally or legally British or Irish is not the same as thinking their opinions reflect reality. We’d also respect the right of an NI’er to decide he was Portuguese, and to take that citizenship if Portugal would have him. We might also think he was crazy.
Are there any objective criteria? I would say that the first child of Ulster Scots who was born in Ireland (yes, I know that’s a simplification) was also the first one who was Irish, whether he thought so or not. Turgon’s posts above seem to argue that there are no criteria, only arbitrary personal judgments. I didn’t know the Presbyterians taught postmodernism
> a process which would end with the people who are now >unionists being indoctrinated into the nationalist culture.’
That was somewhere between ignorant and bigoted in 1971, and now it’s just out of all correspondence with reality. First of all, minorities are being assimilated everywhere in the world all of the time, but both the majority and the minority always give way to something new. If you’ve spent any time in London or Los Angeles, you know about this process. EuroAmericans in New York didn’t erase Puerto Rican or Korean culture (regardless of whether they tried) – instead the meaning of being a New Yorker has changed. An ROI that suddenly had a 15% or 20% minority of Ulster Protestants would be a different society from either the ROI or NI today (I’m not predicting that there will be a UI in any foreseeable future time, just engaging your line of argument).
Secondly, Irish people are far more sophisticated now than in 1971, due to the EU, the collapsing influence of the church, the economic boom (may it rest in peace), and various other things. The kind of cultural chauvinism you talk about in your points 3 and 4 is much weaker. Few to no nationalists have any interest in forcing any cultural change on you.
So this pressure being exerted on your community amounts to lads wearing jerseys, signs of support (and who puts up signs of support in unprominent places?) and people being friendly, I mean who the feck do people think they are asking you if your going to a football match….the bastards !
Btw DR, I’m regularly in Dungannon leisure centre and the majority of lads present are of the east European variety, not big GAA fans. And little old me in my Arsenal jersey.
“nah, its more like being the only guy in the council leisure centre Gym not wearing a GAA top, or the number of businesses that display signed Tyrone tops in prominent locations on their premises, or when you say where you from coming up to finals or whatever the automatic presumption “are you going to the match on Sunday?”
*Rolls eyes*
Hi DR,
I dont really ever feel pressure to go along with it all, but it is hard to get away from. I can understand your sentiments.
Im from a small town in Fermanagh where GAA is a religion. It’s more of a case of most other people are into it and I’m not, so uh it makes for somewhat uninformed (on my part) sports banter in the barbers, thats about the extent of it for me.
Really though, where I’m from GAA is completely apolitical and has little to do with any cultural or national sentiment which was obviously there at it’s foundation. Its just a sport that a lot of people are nuts about and I’ve never gotten at all.
A long time ago someone suggested to me that to not be into GAA meant I wasnt being a good Irishman. The person who said it wasnt very bright and I laughed it off. So thats it, one such comment in 40 years.
Well said anonymous
Anonymous is quite right.
Suppose my ancestors came from Scotland and I have never travelled further east than Estonia. Suppose also that I maintain my identity is Han Chinese.
I’m sure no democrat would take away my right to say this. However, would anyone be prepared to agree with me that I actually was Chinese? I don’t think anyone would, and I think they would be right not to. It would be pretty fun to be Aztec, Atlantean or Martian, but that doesn’t make it true.
There are brute facts about identity. Someone born on Ireland is in some sense Irish whether they like it or not; just as someone born within the jurisdiction of the UK is in some sense British whether they like it or not.
What Turgon and McCausland are here doing is confusing people’s absolute right to have their identity recognised as legitimate no matter what it is, with having a right to say your identity is whatever you want it to be.
In the words of that brilliant and important representative of Ulster-Scots culture (who I’ll bet won’t get mentioned in these ‘embedded cultural teaching’ classes) John Hewitt:
“Firstly, I am an Ulsterman steeped in the traditions of this place. Secondly, I am Irish, of this Ireland. Thirdly, I am British, and finally, in a more diffuse way, I am European. It may make it easier for you to understand if you remove one of those elements but if you do you are no longer describing who I am.”
The same goes if you are describing yourself.
Drumlins Rock
Not much of an answer I must say. Judging by your response to RS your idea of ‘pressure’ is insubstantial and largely imagined. I’m no big fan of the GAA however I really cannot see how you can argue that they and the OO perform similar roles within ‘the two communities’.
Incidentally I am well read and up to speed with the history of the OO which is one of the reasons I am comfortable speaking with some authority to how loathesome it is and how malevolent its role in northern life has been and to some degree continues to be, irrespective of the intentions of its members (not all of whom are raging anti-catholic bigots) and their own feelings about it.
Off topic, but seeing it’s Sunday, so for any of you interested here’s the debate between Blair and Git Hitchens which occurred on friday. It’s in several parts not sure if this link is chronological.
http://bit.ly/guVdGQ
Ulster is a regional identity of Ireland not of the UK. In the Royal Standard it is the Harp not the Red Hand that makes up the fourth and equal quadrant.
Any understanding of the Union and the whole basis of the unionist case is the Union between the people of these Isles that was sadly torn apart 90 years ago.
Is Nelson McCausland saying that he has no affiliation with institutions like the “Church of Ireland”, the “Presbyeterian Church in ireland” the “Methodist Church in Ireland” – or what even about the “Grand Lodge of Irealnd” – all of these institutions have Irish symbolism at their core – I suppose St Patrick means nothing to Nelson either ?
Or what about the Royal Irish Regiment with its Gaelic battle cry and shamrocks and the Irish Guards likewise. Not to mention the “Harp and Crown” RUC and UDR before them.
Or what about the Irish Football Association with its Celtic Cross and where it derives al lot of its arguments in the eligibility row that it is also (indeed the original) football body on this island.
We derive our British citisenship by being born in Northern Ireland – not despite it. You cant say I am British in Northern Ireland just because I am.
By the very nature of its geographical location in Northern Ireland it is absurd that unionism would deny its Irishness.
I dont know about Nelson but I ceased being a Planter about 500 years ago and let’s face it our political allegiance now is more to do with what religion we were born into. Although my surname is Scottish none of us have to go too far back to find our Gaelic ancestory. My mother’s maiden name was Pelan and my grandmother on my father side was a Joyce.
Therefore I am Irish and British and proud – and I have no need or desire to contort the facts to deny the former.
Well this is just another of the clear differences between UUP and DUP thinking then and demonstrates that despite all of Robinsons’ “progressive” words that the DUP will never be able to broaden and maximise the electoral base of the Union voting public.
This is not Unionism bit a form of “Ulster Nationalism” using unionism to separate itself from the rest of the island as opposed to trying to unite part of the island with GB.
It is the kind of thinking the early Planters would have had and has no place in their descendants 500 years later with al the history, integration and experience behind them not least of which was the Act of The Union.