“How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?”
One of the most striking things about Barry Flynn’s great evocation of the IRA’s 1950′s border campaign was the degree to which the shooting of IRA volunteers Sean South and Fergal O’Hanlon seemed to galvanise pro Republic sentiment south of the border. That was reprised with the death of the ten hunger strikers of the early 80s.
But in the absence of conflict and death from Northern Ireland the south has simply presumed all is well and settled and has moved on to its own, more immediate preoccupations. Even the leadership of the largest “Republican” party on the island as recast the relationship between the two parts of the island in striking terms.
Brian Cowen saying earlier this year what I suspect Margaret Ritchie meant to say on The Politics Show this week:
“The genius of all of these agreements is that we are all on a common journey together where we have not decided on the destination. The problem with our ideologies in the past was that we had this idea about where we were going but we had no idea how anyone was going to come with us on the journey.
“We have now all decided: let’s go on a journey and forget about the destination – the destination isn’t really important in that respect. We can all work for what it is we would like ideally to see, but this is not something that can be forced or imposed upon people on either side of the island.”
And he was only following the lead of the boul Bertie before him:
“That can only happen in the long term future. How long that will be I don’t know. If it is done by any means of coercion, or divisiveness, or threats, it will never happen. We’ll stay at a very peaceful Ireland and I think time will be the healer providing people, in a dedicated way, work for the better good of everyone on the island. If it doesn’t prove possible, then it stays the way it is under the Good Friday Agreement, and people will just have to be tolerant of that if it’s not possible to bring it any further.”
In today’s Irish Times, Clare man Brian McConnell notes (highly anecdotally) what he felt has been a change in the outlook of Northern Irish nationalists:
During previous visits to nationalist communities in the North I have always felt something of an inherent tension. Many felt abandoned by the South, and questioned how true our republican aspirations were.
I remember once being tackled for buying the Guardian newspaper, and this from a republican sympathiser who never missed a Manchester United match on television.
This time, though, those tensions had eased. There was a realisation and acceptance from many I spoke to that the notion of a united Ireland, while still something of an obscure political ideal in the Republic, is logistically impossible now. It was refreshing to be able to have an honest dialogue without feeling pangs of guilt for not rowing in behind the green agenda.
The logistics of the post-1994 reality have caught up on century-old definitions of nationalism and republicanism. How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?
That last is a very good question…
Topic: Politics, Society and Culture
Region: Ireland, Northern Ireland
meet me at the pillar
four green fields
Seymour,
I’m sure you will agree that an education in music, like an education in literature, means stepping beyond the emotional appeal to intellectual underpinnings.
Obviously in a step by step age-appropriate way for school children and students
Analysing what the words of the song/aria say.
What’s wrong with trying to gain an insight into what people wrote and sang/sing and why they did it and how they elicited an emotional response?
.
How the song/aria is constructed, links to origins of genre and future developments as can be assessed at present,
How the melody changes with change of instrument, tempo and transposition of key.
Would it be so wrong to apply this type of discipline to rebel and “loyalist” songs?
Would it not help people become aware the unquestioning, instinctive, emotional appeal of this type of music in the first place and propaganda of all sorts in the second?
Would it not help them become more critically aware of what they are hearing and perhaps playing and singing?
Woiuld all that be so bad as to need prohibition?
Racism alive and well on slugger.
We obviously have some supporters of Scotland’s shame on Slugger.
Oh I’ve got a brand new shiny helmet and a pair of kinky boots
I’ve got a lovely new flak jacket and a lovely khaki suit
And when we go on night patrol we hold each others hands
We are the British army and we’re here to take your land
A wholistic process of radical constitutional rearrangement
GoldenFleece
I think the answer is in ‘recent poll’ I did say that now is the worst possible time.
That’s actually a very good point.
JJ
Wellington was Irish, in the ‘stable’ sense. As was Faulkner.
A geological land mass. A lot of ‘British’ people in Kilburn used to claim they were not ‘Brits’-but ‘Irish’. Now, outnumbered by Asians and Afro-Caribbeans, they fade into insignificance. and become..British.
So it goes…
Mmmm .. The problem is that Ireland is already an established country, and I honestly don’t see any great rush here to have Northern Ireland expand our state.
Séamus Rua’s point (see above) might be more realistic, that some form of northern Irish nationalism will continue to exist. However, it is already a very different nationalism from that in Ireland.
One, or both, need to face up to something we already know; that north and south are two different political regions, and not likely to be united anytime soon.
That’s about right, but I’d say that percentage would drop very quickly if the question was put to the country. After all, to be (sadly) brutal, what’s in it for us?
Cormac Mac Art
” What’s in it for us? ”
At the moment nothing except more debt and only a fool would think a UI is affordable at this time and possibly for some time. This wretched financial disaster is forcing us to prioritise and some cherished ambitions are going to have to wait, which at least suits the democratic process.
Stephen,
check it out, the format is for the current set up, if the goodwill was there a way can be found to bring in a few more things.
http://www.skgaa.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=586%3Ascor-try-your-hand-at-something-different&Itemid=128
This is a starting point for information for those who do not know what score is about, it is one of the more accessible sites, googling Scor na nOG will get a plethora of sites.
Now there is a story whenever it will be fully told.
When the full bill came in from the insurances for the collateral damage the State army did blowing up the base the Goverment was taken aback and Frank Aken was not one bit impressed with the Army ‘professionalism’. Aken is reputed to have said that the Army should have been left in the Curragh and the IRA asked to finish the job.
A confederacy would surely cement the fact that there are two distinct political regions?
In fact the idea goes against my grain, I’d much rather see a unitary state and the abolition of the northern state forever and ever. But if we’re talking pragmatically that’s not going to work, because it would never satisfy both communities.
Your reaction is a little bit knee-jerk if you don’t mind me saying. The northern state wouldn’t be expanded, it would simply gain fiscal control and attempt to replace a staggered reduction in British subvention with FDI and private industry. Although I think you like to think that northern nationalism could be contained within the state that’s just not the case. In fact a confederacy would have more chance of containing that element by fulfilling some of it’s aspiration whilst prolonging the life expectancy of the northern state, perhaps drastically so.
The fact is that while to aspire to be British and retain the link with Britain is perfectly valid, both sides are paying for that aspiration. It is holding us back economically, and will continue to do so. The economic environment has changed drastically in the last 50 years and this arrangement with Britain is now, economically speaking, totally out of date. People here deserve the same chance to aspire as anyone else in the UK / Ireland, but if they want to start businesses they’re tempted by the South’s CT rates or London’s connections. If they want to excel in their careers they have to move where the private industry is, or settle for the civil service. The brain drain is unacceptable, the state is unsustainable and the chance to aspire is practically nil.
‘Always look on the bright side of life’…………..according to our Great Leader,that was a mainstay,when the going got tough ??
JH,
Do not assume for one moment that Southern Republicans are satisfied with a Twenty Six plus Six just to make up numbers. The whole damm set up needs to be changed North and South. The Southern Twenty Six counties have as big a democratic deficit as the North has.
Even more than new politics we need new government structures for both administration and accountability.
District, Regional, Provincial and National Parliaments incorporating true subsidiary is the answer to the democratic deficit. Power to the people in the true sense of the word.
Basically any over body should not retain for itself a decision making capacity on behalf of a subordinate body that the underbody is capable of exercising for itself.
There is even a Papal encyclical on this advocating such an administrative system as the political system most in-keeping with human dignity through power devolution.
All tax matters, medical cards, state services point of contact etc should be at regional level and no more than a reasonable journey from any point in the region.
No more of driving from say Waterford to Sligo to sort out a separated mothers allowance, only to find more problems there that have to be referred to Dublin, so another wasted journey there to be referred back to Sligo.
The district level can be true vocational community and part time, expenses only payment. The regional assembly are a few days a month and paid at average industrial wage. The Provincial Parliament is three days a week while the National Parliament and Senate is full time.
The first concept of the Senate was a good one, a way of bringing expertise and special interest groups into public life. Instead it became a place to give a platform to politicians on the way up, a parking place for party hacks rejected by the voters, between elections and a rest home for has been politicians about to be pensioned off.
A true senate could make an enormous contribution with people from credit unions, trade unions, universities etc available. The main National Parliament would deal with national matters only. We could go back to the ‘five fifths’ only Dublin would be the new fifth, dealing with the urban area only.
There are several areas in the Six Counties where the Unionists would control a majority in the District and even Regional Assemblies. They may even pick up some new membership South of the Border.
Funny enough anytime I discussed this with South of the Border protestants, I found few willing to consider going back to any form of Political Unionism, whether they would leave their present party allegiances for a new transferred political party catering for former Unionists is another matter.
Special interest fiefdoms need to be broken up, the legal system is the biggest example of this, we should model our system in a true republican one of elected accountability such as the States and end that bastion of medieval privilege. Likewise the Garda need to be decentralized and under regional police boards with each region under its own commanders with all jobs open on merit in any region to any policeman that have made the grade and is suitable.
The victimization of Gardai by superiors could be ended, since it would be open to any gardai to sit an exam to get his grade in a Regional or Provincial Educational College graduating police as they would any other profession.
It is not about just unity, if it was most republicans I know could not be arsed with just that. Connoly said that Ireland as distinct from its people meant nothing to him and while not wholly agreeing with that statement, it is in the right zone.
Once the concept is embraced there will be one immediate realignment in Irish politics, Unionists, republicans and progressives attempting to have a new order and the three main traditional Southern Parties trying to preserve as much of the old ways as possible.
I doubt the wise Chrdsitian Brothers would have apporved of it.
JJ Malloy : Correction 9 November 2010 at 7:50 pm
Given the posting source, what else do you expect ?
Anne,
NO. It is like the history of pornography or ancient erotic art. The argument remains the same
Fintan O’Toole (no relation to Slugger) is very anti-rebel songs……as befits his position of high priest of the Dublin 4 Overclass in the Irish Times. But it was good to see him bested by the Wolfe Tones on The Late Late Show a few years back.
Its one of my favourite things to watch on YouTube.
“I must admit “My Little Armalite” is depressingly catchy.”
Written by a teacher from my old school in Lurgan.
Folks the country is in all sorts of trouble. Bankrupt, failing states by any measure.North and south.
It’s really appalling if you think about it eh?
So where are the modern Christy Moore’s to keep the #$^@$#^ honest?
There were no rebel songs in our schoolyard either. I do remember going on a school music trip where we preformed a number of Irish songs from across the devide including the sash and an irish rebel song which escapes my memory.
I am a sucker for a good balad though. Favourites of a republican variety would include. Four green fields, Lonley banna strand, Foggy dew, sean south etc.
JH I rhino that you and Cormac may have misunderstood me. I meant a confederacy of island republics across the British isles.
If only the English would ditch their monarchy and reform their political system.
I should point out that despite the armed men, the helicopter gunships overhead etc etc.
I never ever heard a rebel song at school nor even knew anyone who knew one.
“How many school yards now ring out to nationalist or republican songs like ours did?”
Is a question like that not a definitive symptom of a nostalgic romanticism? In an age where, unhappy at having to spend fifteen minutes in the fresh air of a school yard, pale-faced unfit school kids wheeze with concern about their current ‘status’ on Facebook and whether their Youtube playlist is cool enough, they would surely articulate a sense of nationalism (Irish, British whatever) in a completely different way, and from reading Brian McConnell’s piece – a way that would be completely unrecognisable to him.
It reminds me of people who get teary-eyed over former wonders of the football pitch from some mysteriously more golden era. Then when you get to see some footage, it turns out to be what appears to a dour middle aged man (5 foot 2 but weighing about 15 stone) bobbling a weather-beaten leather ball over a ploughed field before he gets hospitalised by a centre half who looks like a judge forced him to accept a position on the first team or go to jail. All watched by a grey unresponsive crowd. Nostalgia is like claiming historical legitimacy – it tends not to stand up to any serious scrutiny!
Cormac
In the short run – increase in both land and sea territory, an influx of cheaper labour that might spur some investment, two good unis, removal of a land border that provides unwanted arbitrage opportunities, complete secutriy control obver the island, some decent tourist sites taht need developed, international goodwill and almost certainly some kind of finacial package between the EU and the UK.
In the long run if the Republic can recover then the North almost certainly can, and you’d have higher tax receipts more opprotunities for innovation and growth, a chance at breaking FF dominance, a bigger pool for the football team and lots else besides.
That is in 30 seconds off the top of my head; please don’t go on with endless buts: the point is there are a lot of good reasons if you are open to them. I could equally list a lot of bad things that might happen. On balance you believe the Irish people will do better in control of their own destiny or not, be it 26 or 32 counties.
Though Republicans need to avoid slipping into a “The North is a sh*thole” trap. It’s counterproductive.
Who wouldn’t want to inherit a country with numerous social problems and still armed paramilitaries?
It’s easy to talk about democratic process, but there are elements in NI that would easily ignore the ballot box if a UI was even on the furthest horizon.
Now John, back off. If you are referring to George Best or Stanely Mathews. Pele and Puskas are hard acts to follow. The older chaps cannot be blamed for the low tech footballs of their day.
It is nice to hear Clare’s Dragoons being mentioned. God bless the CBS.
If you read Behan or Joyce, the focus of the ballads doeschange. I have a huge Dubliners collection but seldom listen to it.
My favourite is Moving Hearts’ Wise Christian Brothers with a certain Christy Moore doing vocals. Mick Hanley, who wrote it, does not like it.
http://www.art247.com/Photo/5307-Norman-Hunter
Just for the record (so to speak) I did not learn Clares Dragoons from any CBS. It was an “ordinary parish run” primary school.
It was written by Thomas Davis (Young Ireland Movement) in 19th century as was “The Irish Brigade”. So they are not actually Jacobite songs but use the Jacobite experience to promote Republicanism, evoking the Wild Geese etc. CLares “Dragoons” (sic) were actually an Infantry regt which is clearly an error in the song but Cavalry are way cooler.
The best version of Clares Dragoons (actually the only one) is by Na Casadaigh and much slower than how I was taught. Best version of “Irish Brigade” is the Wolfe Tones. “Jackets Green” (Michael Scanlon) ….theres a WT version but Mary O’Hara (hardly a Republican icon) version is more appropriate…..again this song contains the very basic eror that Sarsfields men did not wear “jackets green”……they were red.
There is actually a tradition of covert Jacobite 18th century poetry and song, with references to Jacobites such as “Blackbird” etc.
“Mo Ghile Mhear” is probably the best known. Yesterday I wrote erroneously that this was re-written by PH Pearse. Bad editing. Pearse re-wrote óró sé do bheatha bhaile. which is the version I suspect most are familiar with. If not we are all familiar with “What Shall We Do With A Drunken Sailor”. Ive only heard the original once and never on record. Clancys/Makem is best version but Sinead O’Connors is pretty good.
Currently running in Irish Central…… timing or what, how neat is that ?
http://www.irishcentral.com/ent/Top-ten-greatest-Irish-ballads-of-all-time—SEE-VIDEO-107022088.html
I have no quarrel with what Brian McConnell wrote in the Irish Times. Mr McConnell’s observations do not have much significance for Northern Ireland. [He is an Eire person who was writing about Eire attitudes.]
A few weeks ago, Frank Curran died. He was a former editor of the Derry Journal. In the 1980s he made a submission to the New Ieland forum and, in doing so, startled the chattering classes of Eire. He explained to the silly Southerners that a united Northern Ireland was every bit as unrealistic as a united Ireland. The mental cleavage within Northern Ireland was as great as that between north and south – and this mental cleavage was being reinforced by an ever growing residential segregation. The situation described so well and so truthfully by Frank Curran has been reinforced by time and population movement. And given political expression by election results. At the time when Frank Curran was addressing the New Ireland Forum, who would have believed that, within a generation, the DUP and Sinn Fein would become the main unionist and nationalist parties?
Mr Brian McConnell’s observations are interesting and probably well founded BUT they are of no significance to Northern Ireland.
“After all, to be (sadly) brutal, what’s in it for us?”
Free Cheese?
I could get behind a lot of that MV. Personally I would subscribe to a new model of more accountable Government, particularly where a lot of posts are voluntary. My biggest gripe with the political system on both parts of the Island is that representatives are out of touch with the electorate. I was hugely impressed when East Belfast selected Naomi Long this year because I could not understand how a man earning in excess of £500k p/a could understand the needs of working class people.
Political salaries should be capped at the average industrial wage plus vetted expenses. It should be a privilege to serve the people, such average wages would ensure only those who truly want to lead will run for office.
Back to constitutional issue, what I’m proposing, or perhaps predicting, here is a stepping stone to a more sustainable and representative solution to the problem we’re in. That problem is that this state in unsustainable and very poorly designed, economically speaking. If it were a business, someone would be brought in to radically reform it’s corporate structure, I’m simply saying that to provide the capacity for our children to aspire to something greater than public service or emigration we need to take a long hard look at our political situation and see how we can all make a compromise for our own benefit.
To follow up on what I take (correct me if I am wrong) to be your main point – “Even if a united Ireland was “impossible” – it is unlikely that northern nationalism would simply die off with everyone becoming unionists.” – where do you see northern nationalism going? The SDLP and SF becoming northern versions of FG and FF?
80% according to th Sunday Business Post. Again I would point out that Cormac MacArt does not represent a significant strand of Southern opinion.
It is important to think in flexible and not in absolutist trerms A UI is not the only framework that can give expression to Northern nationalism. There is what Conor Cruise O’Brien (who viewed the prospect with extreme distaste) called CROBIEP: cross border institutions with executive power.
Short therm as another artificial attempt to make an artificial State work, cross border institutions are but a short and medium term solution necessity. However if, as it seems that there is no de facto acceptance of these structures in certain Northern quarters and their effectiveness is curtailed, it will only lead to more disillusionment with the GFA.
If the GFA is returned to ‘life support’ one more time more than a few Republicans and Nationalists will not be visiting the patient in hospital nor will they be waiting around for a patient discharge !
http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1110/page1400784_av2852461.html#
Back to topic: Here is a resurrected blast from the past. The GAA have a new DVD on sale: archived hurling matches from the 1940s and 1950s with the legendary Nicky Rackard, Christy Ring and of course, the voice of God, Micheal O hEithir.
I have already mailed my letter to Santa.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2010/1111/1224283094147.html
Back to topic. Santa already got my letter about this.
and it should be a best seller.
JH,
thanks for a positive response. Now will you please set out your stall in some detail like I did and let us see not where you are coming from as much as where you would like to see things going.
What do you see as an ideal political framework.
The governance structures I laid out were Sinn Fein policy up to 1986, they were also RSF policy and someone from that source may confirm the current situation.
By 86 there were influences for ‘democratic centralism’ in Republicanism who were opposed too much localized control.
As a countryman raised on a farm, I have little use for that concept. I believe that society should be organized from the bottom up, not the top down. Maskey unmasked have mocked me for my ‘ honor of the little parish’ and Knocknagow attitude, but that is exactly the driving force that made the GAA one of the most successful sporting and social organizations in modern Europe.
The ‘Rockie’s in Blackrock and ‘The Glen’ in Cork or the ‘Cokes or the Kerins’ in Kerry are proof positive that urban areas can foster a sense of community every bit as defined and passionate as a rural village or small town can.
This same spirit harnessed to politics and social organization could give us a completely new Ireland with real people power. Such a system would also allow unique communities like the Shanlill Road, the Bogside and God help us, even Portadown to preserve their own particular ethos.
Outside of communities there are also regions such as the Antrim Glens that should be preserved, I do not like the way urbanization and dormitory town commuter ethos has eaten into this unique area.
Once when enthusing about the late Cardinal O’Fee and his great South Armagh traditional ethos, the then Arch Bishop Cahal Daly reminded me rather forcefully and passionately that his Glens People too had a culture and that furthermore, unlike the South Armagh or my own variety it was far more pluralist and inclusive with a large drollop of Republicanism still there among the protestants even if they did not wear it on their sleeve. Ouch!
Incidently shortly after he took over as Primate I has occasion to see him when accompaning the mother of an abuse victim. Both wanted me to remain at the meeting. In his pastoral capacity he could not have been more different to the stern forbiding public persona.
I had been polite and reserved with him during the meeting but had to undergo a rapid mind shift. When he gave me his full attention after the business concluded I said that I would have to begin by apologising for what I thought of him, never mind what I had publicly said over the years. The his ‘churchman’ masked was whipped aside, he gave a loud burst of laughter, sprang acceoss the room and warmly shook hands with me.
We were then invited to breakfast.There was little he could do for the Mother concerned, in fact he patiently explained what his constraints were. However when she returned to the instution concerned where her child was, all attidutes had changed and the old arrogance of the Religious Order running the services were gone. He got my respect and indeed my affection on that day and dozens of other incidents over the remainded of his life confirmed those first imperssions of that personal encounter.
Back to the Governance Structures, your thought please as requested, we can at least discuss therotical models free of immediate political issues. I have touched on the first one, Fedralist bottom up of Centeralism top down.
http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1110/page1400784_av2852461.html#
Short video
Cormac,
I have my own ideas – but I have not a plan for the nation!