GAA: the Nation’s desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs.
A question in the Assembly from Michelle McIlveen to Nelson McCausland suggested that Unionists are effectively barred from joining the GAA.
While I’m delighted another DUP member has taken the time to read the GAA Official Guide, something many members have never done, I’m surprised they seem surprised to find an Irish cultural and sporting organisation doesn’t have a Unionist ethos.
Both McIlveen and McCausland call for the GAA to change its rules. For those of us with experience of the GAA that may be a valid suggestion, many clubs and a large number of members demonstrate little concern with the Basic Aim of the organisation and seem mainly focused on being production factories for senior football and hurling teams or allowing younger people to participate in these two games. If so many members have little consideration for other sports, cultural, language or national aspirations maybe the GAA would be better off codifying itself as a sporting organisation alone and negating Unionism’s criticism?
Or maybe if they we going to get flack from the likes of McIlveen and McCausland over the Official Guide the organisation could be more proactive overall in actually implementing it?
Miss McIlveen: Although the benefits of sporting events can and should be of immense value to our tourism market, does the Minister share my grave concern that unionists are, by the constitution of the GAA and the rules therein, excluded and prohibited from membership of that sporting organisation? Will the Minister call for those unacceptable rules to be amended by that organisation as a matter of urgency to reflect the shared and better future that we should all be striving for in today’s Northern Ireland?
The Minister of Culture, Arts and Leisure: The Member raises a very important point. There is a general commitment and recognition in society now that a shared and better future is the best way forward in Northern Ireland. In the past, I have commended the professionalism and efficiency of the GAA in how it manages its organisation and activities. I recognise the importance that many in the community attach to the GAA and the value that they place on the sports that it runs. However, I agree with the Member that there is a difficulty, and I have raised it with the GAA and Sport NI in the past; it is not something that I raise today for the first time. As the Member made her point, I noticed that some Members on the other side of the Chamber seemed to be in a state of deep denial. However, rule 1.2 sets out the basic aim of the GAA very clearly:“The Association is a National Organisation which has as its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.”
In other words, it places the games as a means to an end. That also needs to be taken in the context of rule 2.1 on membership, which states:
“Membership of the Association shall be granted only by a Club, to persons who subscribe to and undertake to further the aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic Association, as stated in the Official Guide.”That quote comes from the current rules, which I think were approved in July. In other words, it states that, to play the games, whether Gaelic football or hurling, and be a member of a club, people have to subscribe to the basic aim, among the other aims, that has the aspiration of a united Ireland. Therefore, people who are from a unionist tradition and do not subscribe to that particular political aspiration find themselves excluded from participation in those games. [Interruption.]
The GAA needs to address that issue if it is to contribute, as it could, to a shared and better future. It would be better if some Members faced up to that with a little bit of honesty and humility rather than engaging in the practice of denial. We must look at how we can address the issue and move forward for the benefit of not just the GAA but all society in Northern Ireland. It is possible to be a Protestant and play Gaelic games. However, according to the rules, it is not possible to be a unionist and play Gaelic games.
Aside: I know this topic will present an almost irresistible temptation for some but please don’t go down the ‘whatabout’ road. Deal with this and if you want a mirror topic on any other organisation/s feel free to write up a draft and email it.
[Moderator's update: Comments are now closed. This thread has declined below Slugger's standards.]
Topic: Government, Politics, Society and Culture, Sport
Region: Ireland
http://multitext.ucc.ie/d/Archbishop_Croke__the_GAA_November_1884
Yes maybe the GAA should give it all up and play the foreign games the great Archbishop Thomas Croke described as effeminate. The list of these effeminate imports, croquet, cricket, polo and the like that the degenerate dandies like is not for us. Say waht you like about them, they are about as Irish as green beer. We were made for greater stuff.
The clash of the ash, snap apple and throwing the sledge. Who could imagine Brian Boru, Red Hugh O’Donnell or Fiach McHugh O’Byrne engaging in such foreign frivolities. Easy to picture Brian Boru thundering through in a Clare jersey, the sliotar stuck to his stick, blood curdling Clare cries coming from his gut and Dubhhlinners falling around him like (foreign) ten pins as he storms towards the Hill wielding his wooden weapon with deadly effect.
Or Red Hugh O’Donnell in the green and gold of Donegal storming the lands of the O’Rourke or O’Neill , taking no prisoners and putting all but the bravest and best to flight.
So is the GAA to renounce Cusack and Croke, Devine and DeValera, to say nothing of our hallowed ancestors? Methinks not.
On the shoulders of giants as a nasty little Englishman once said.
Alan Maskey
I see no reason why the GAA should change their sporting ethos or the games they choose to play.
[comment edited - mods - keep it civil and keep it clean please]
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2010/1018/ohailpins.html
Cork shocker. This earthquake (imho) is a bigger and more immediate potential problem to the GAA than all the potential female unionist camogie players. Certainly, a much bigger problem for the GAA than McCausland’s views are such institutional bottlenecks epitomised by the infamous Frank Murphy. If Denis Walsh’s decision was influenced in any way by Murphy, this is really big, much bigger and important than McCausland.
Mainland Ulsterman
“I think you’ll find the Irish rugby team contains people of both Irish and British national identity and always has done. Note that when I country of 60 million teams up with a country of 4 million, Irish identity is recognised. But when a country of 4 million teams up with a province of 1.7 million, they do not give recognition to British identity. Well done the Lions, not so well done the IRFU I’d say.”
Willie John McBride, Syd Miller, Mike Gibson, Moss Keane, Ciaran Fitzgerald didn’t play for the British and IRISH Lions. They played for the British Lions. The first British & Irish Lions tour was just 9 years ago. Keith Wood campaigned for the name change and embarrassed them into changing it – not Syd Miller or the IRFU. He probably would have let it go if Davy Tweed hadn’t behaved as badly as he did and Syd Miller (then President of the IRFU) didn’t censor him. (PS – you fail to mention that approx. 50% of that 1.7m population don’t identify with the British identity.
“The final straw was a few years ago when Ireland played a match at Ravenhill and the IRFU still refused to allow a British flag to be flown. You reach a point where you just have to say ‘no more’ to that kind of nonsense. As a result I don’t support Ireland myself any more.”
It probably has nothing to do with the fact that Ulster Rugby are doing their best to keep Ravenhill a flag free zone as much as possible so as to be attractive to support from both traditions. Unlike the GAA, Ulster rugby need to build up their support and sell match tickets.
“Yes, “Ireland’s Call” is a bit of a joke really. They should bite the bullet and play GSTQ.”
They did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ6-bYixpYE
Since we play England every year, you get to sing GSTQ once a year at rugby matches.
“Ringland has spoken of how his father had to sit in a different seat every time he came to watch his son playing at Lansdowne Road, to avoid assassination. Good for Trevor for his efforts on the pitch, but his family should not have had to go through that. And he has also added his voice to calls for a change in the way the Northern Ireland involvement in the team is treated through flags and anthems.”
I think what Ringland’s father did was swap the tickets that Trevor gave him so as not to be a sitting duck – surely a wise move for someone in the RUC. I presume if he was going to Windsor Park he would do the same – hardly a huge penance to sit in a different seat from the previous game you were at.
I also seem to remember Ringland saying that he had no doubt in his mind that the Special Branch/Gardai that protected them when they were in Dublin would have put their lives on the line to protect them.
If that is too “Eire-ish” for you guys, how about the fighting men of Crossmaglen, who have just beaten the ones they hate – Dromintee – to be kings of Armagh and to have now more country championships than any other club in Ireland (if we could use that term).
Pity some of you guys were not at the match. You could tell them that they are British and not inclusive. Those local rivalries are something else and, if you don’t have the passion, you can’t understand.
I wonder if Slab and the boys attended. Or even Chris Donnelly, who generally takes an interest in such matters.,
Any word on what McCausland and McIlveen made of it. Maybe they were watching the Kerry final between Austin Stacks and Crokes along with one of our esteemed commenters. If so good luck to them though I hope the colourful history of both clubs did not put them off.
Then we have the International with the Aussie Rules thugs starting.
But best of all, we have the great Michael Cusack, who famously spoke of the glory of the little parish.
The Afghans would understand that. Roy Keane understands it. Anthony Tohill understands it. Orangies never willl.
I genuinely enjoyed that response Alan, though I didn’t agree with all of it. We’ll leave it there.
“Willie John McBride, Syd Miller, Mike Gibson, Moss Keane, Ciaran Fitzgerald didn’t play for the British and IRISH Lions. They played for the British Lions. The first British & Irish Lions tour was just 9 years ago.”
Yes that was belated, But why didn’t the culturally sensitive Mr Wood address the same problem in his own backyard?
“It probably has nothing to do with the fact that Ulster Rugby are doing their best to keep Ravenhill a flag free zone as much as possible so as to be attractive to support from both traditions. Unlike the GAA, Ulster rugby need to build up their support and sell match tickets.”
Yes you’re right, it isn’t connected to that. It caused quite a fuss at the time, because the excuse used for only flying the tricolour for Ireland matches had been that they were played at Lansdowne Road / Croke Park and somehow people in the Republic would turn to stone if they had to see the national flag of some of the team they support flying in the stadium in which they play. This bluff was called when they played in the Belfast and the IRFU refused to have the union flag flying to represent the British part of the joint Irish team.
“Yes, “Ireland’s Call” is a bit of a joke really. They should bite the bullet and play GSTQ.”
They did.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQ6-bYixpYE
Haha! They were playing that for the England players, I think you’ll find. I meant they should be playing it for the Ireland players at every match. It’s really a test of how grown-up Irish nationalism is these days – can it get its head around respecting Britishness on the island, 12 years now after formally promising to do so. Sadly it still fails.
“Ringland’s father … hardly a huge penance to sit in a different seat from the previous game you were at.”
Oh come on. Moving seats was hardly the point. Ever been under threat of death by terrorists? It’s a bit stressful I’m told.
Good points JM. I watched the video and followed it up with the Taffy and Jock songs. Some points:
1. The Poms blasted out GTSQ well in Croker, with a little bit of crowd support. Fair play to them.
2. Most of the Micks sang the national anthem well. But the other song is a bit of a joke. Worse, unless they are doing the haka, it is as well just to get on with the game.
The Taffs have a great record of singing, as they once had one in rugby (G Edwards etc) and Cardiff Arms park was a formidable place when they were top dog.
But the Jock sissy private school boys. singing Flower of Scotland had zero punch. I have heard Celtic supporters sing it. And the have something the Scottish intenrational rugby team do not have. Passion.
The Scottish rugby catchment area is almost as pitiable as the Irish (including c–ts like Tweed). The Irish wonder is how they have almost always managed to get the makings of a good team (but never a complete team) from such thin resources.
England of course are the big joke. More people paly rugby in England than in any other country. But they are always nearly shite. No passion. Just like their soccer crowd. Resurrect Alan Ball.
One wonders do Mccausalnd and McIlveen get passionate about anything?
BP,
“I would like you to admit that the GAA does not actually have a ban on anyone, contrary to your earlier lies.
At it again. How difficult is this? They require you to be a nationalist. How can you not see that that means a unionist cannot sign up? Reminds me of the Constable Savage sketch in Not The Nine O’Clock News – he wasn’t arrested for being black but he was arrested for “possession of curly black hair and thick lips.” The thing about discrimination is, you have to think about things that you don’t intend to be discriminatory but which are so. It’s not enough to say we don’t intend to be discriminatory when you have those membership rules, not to mention all the IRA-revering nonsense I hear about at some grounds.
“Clearly, after the changes to rules 21 and 42, the onus is on the rejectionist wing of unionism to respond by dropping their unjustified and unjustifiable boycott of the GAA.”
Well, I’m not from the rejectionist wing of unionism, I’m an Alliance supporter at the moment, though a former UUP supporter before the Tory tie-up. I was a vocal supporter of the GFA and have been a consistent advocate of centrist politics. It’s on those liberal principles that I find the GAA’s aims odd and utterly out of place in a modern sporting body.
MU
Yes it is bad enough for everyone in disputed areas to know they are at risk. It must be so much worse for someone to know they are a specific target.
The atmosphere has changed and although there is some way to go I really believe the final steps to acceptance are within reach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8hzfrTPo6E
Dump the anthems altogether. How about a haka and a half. Some great Munster- All Black clashes. Great the way Munster can wind them up and aren’t unduly stressed.
The big wide world of sport. Let me see. Munster excel at all GAA games, rugby, Man Utd, some athletics, a bit brhin on boxing. And they have to moan that some Prots feel uncomfortable because every day is not the 12th of July.
Mainland Ulsterman
“Yes that was belated, But why didn’t the culturally sensitive Mr Wood address the same problem in his own backyard?”
I would presume because Dr Miller (who failed to address the British Lions naming when he was in charge), had addressed the issued about 5 years earlier and gave the world ‘Ireland’s Call.” How is that for cultural insensitivity! It would have been very disrespectful of Mr Wood to interfere in that decision. Did it ever occur to you that Miller & Ireland players didn’t want to end up in a ludicrous situation where on a yearly basis two teams would meet that had the same anthem!
“Yes you’re right, it isn’t connected to that. It caused quite a fuss at the time, because the excuse used for only flying the tricolour for Ireland matches had been that they were played at Lansdowne Road / Croke Park and somehow people in the Republic would turn to stone if they had to see the national flag of some of the team they support flying in the stadium in which they play. This bluff was called when they played in the Belfast and the IRFU refused to have the union flag flying to represent the British part of the joint Irish team.”
So Ulster Rugby is not now part of the IRFU and shared no part in the decision making then? And spare a thought for the one or two NI born players who might just not want to be put in the spotlight like that. It was a great opportunity for Ulster Rugby to build up a nationalist fanbase in NI. Considering the number of players from Leinster & Munster now playing rugby who had a GAA background, its fairly amazing that Tommy Bowe is still the only Ulster player to have played Gaelic football in his youth. Fair play to Ulster Rugby to try and address that.
“Haha! They were playing that for the England players, I think you’ll find.”
So, when Ireland play England every year, do you propose that GSTQ be played twice!
“Oh come on. Moving seats was hardly the point. Ever been under threat of death by terrorists? It’s a bit stressful I’m told.”
Would he have done the same in Windsor Park? Ringland’s job put him in danger and at least he knew what the score was. And nothing happened to him. [moderated - allegation removed. If you want to say something contentious about alleged criminal activities, please do it elsewhere]. The outcome for them and their families wasn’t so good.
Alan Maskey
“The big wide world of sport. Let me see. Munster excel at all GAA games, rugby, Man Utd, some athletics, a bit brhin on boxing. And they have to moan that some Prots feel uncomfortable because every day is not the 12th of July.”
You could include horse racing in that one – Coolmore (Tipperary) is probably the most successful racing establishment in the world.
I don’t think they will take too kindly to being dictated to by the DUP, who don’t seem to realise that Ulster GAA are only a quarter of the organisation and as a democratic organisation, its not in the gift of the Ulster GAA to agree to these changes and the only way to make change is from within which could take several years trying to get that through Congress and of course, they would need someone influencial like the GAA President to champion it (which is doubtful if the present man would as he was against the opening up of Croke Park to Rugby & Soccer).
What’s the collective noun for plastic paddies…?