No water – just the cost of (bon)fires
Slugger can’t handle much more water. So I will start what will be a series of blogs attempting to discover an absolute figure for public expenditure on 11th July bonfires.
First up is costs to the Fire Service.
Reports for the last five reporting years show callouts on the 11th night alone have consistently fallen across all areas.
However, the total number of calls to what the NIFRS classify as a ‘bonfire incident’ between May and July reached its highest level in 2009 (288).
The expenditure then was £894,076 and this represents a 32% increase in costs related to 11th bonfires for the Fire Service in 5 years.
Those years (2005 – 2009) saw total expenditure of £3,719,940 from this public body alone in dealing with incidents around 11th bonfires
Much more on this coming in future days/weeks.
grow up Mark and quit your stirring.
DR,
Nearly £4m in 5 years and increasing expenditure is stirring?
I think you’ll find it is recording fact.
The subsequent blogs are really gong to irritate you as the total cost (close as possible) is given for these fires.
There were republican bonfires too the month after which must have incurred a cost. Full of scumbags and the whole thing seemed to have little to do with republicanism, and more about teenage pregnancy, but I failed to see the point in the police chopper flying overhead. What did an aerial view of the bonfire actually achieve apart from waste money? Also, do they bother with helicopters for the standard loyalist bonfires?
If you want to play your wee game, have a look at the hoax callouts, http://www.nifrs.org/statistics.php?sec=13638 roughly 30 times the Bonfire callouts your worked up about, and if your going to play your sectarian game why look! I would say a disproportionate amount of Hoax calls come from Republican areas.
Quit trying to hide your biggoty in some sort of “cost saving” excuses, as you said there is
“Much more on this coming in future days/weeks.”
McC
I’ll have the breakdown in a future blog but ‘republican’ bonfires represent 5% compared to the 67% on the 11th. The rest happen at halloween,
I’ve got so many stats on this
‘Whatabout’
You are going to be doing a lot of that in the next few weeks if you don’t actually address the substance presented (or can’t address it).
Mark, unless you have a strong personal reason against bonfires your only real interest in this subject is to get a dig at “the other side” its just a petty sectarian grudge, and in that case “whatabouthery is fair game!
‘Slugger can’t handle much more water. ‘
Yes it can.
But we should play with the fire motif.
The McKenzie family crest is a mountain in flames.
So noting the real financial costs of 11th bonfires is ‘sectarian’ and results in ‘fair game’?
I think you may need to re-examine the Slugger rules.
I’ve presented fact., ‘fair game’ doesn’t come into it.
What you’ve demonstrated is an inability to address the facts/blog presented. You’ve then fallen back on a purely sectarian argument and personal attack to cover the fact you cannot actually address the figures presented.
DR, what if it’s the bonfires on both sides which are being attacked from a cost point of view? You can hardly call that sectarian.
Mark
Ignore Drumlin’s mock outrage. This is worth examining.
Mc, Mark singled out the 11th night bonfires alone. read his post and FoI request, so I think I can call that sectarian.
very selective “facts” bit like Connors 28 million.
Mark, you might also take into account the various “community festivals” which take place on the day/evening/night of all these bonfires and which are, in most cases, funded by local councils. I know of several in my neck of the woods and which are supposed to have a condition attached of no collecting of bonfire materials until 4 weeks before the 11th. Mind you, it doesn’t seem to stop material being collected from shortly after Easter each year. And the funding is still paid out.
This is a trolling thread.; just ignore it.
Mark, you raise a lot of interesting questions at times. This thread is just silly. How much does it cost to police marches and the frequent justified protests against coat trailing?
We can probably afford bonfires street music and barbeques once a year. Why should we pay for advanced social and peacekeeping services for sectarian separatists and their dreary attempts at armed blackmail, community provocation, the promotion of residential laagers, and economic vandalism?
They would not stand for it in Dublin 4.
Its a legitimate story dont let the fake outrage put you off.
How much money do we pay into “the arts” as i never go to plays,(new lyirc theatre 18m) i also have not been to a bonfire in years but don’t think we should only point them out as a waste of money, lots of people enjoy bonfire night here in ulster, and lots of those people will never grace the lyric, so is its not only fair?.
You might think it silly from your base in Canada Joe, but then again you aren’t the one paying for these things.
“so is its not only fair?”
Well “the arts” generally make a positive contribution to cultures and society which cannot be said of bonfires that ritually burn and destroy cultural symbols.
Grow up DR and face a fact for once.
I think a lot of people are missing the point. Most of the spend that Mark is highlighting is avoidable by proper organisation (what on earth is objectionable about that). Unless it is the inalienable God- and Carson- given right of the Ulsterman to light a bonfire in any random area regardless of the consequences?
How much money do we pay into “the arts” as i never go to plays,(new lyirc theatre 18m) i also have not been to a bonfire in years but don’t think we should only point them out as a waste of money, lots of people enjoy bonfire night here in ulster, and lots of those people will never grace the lyric, so is its not only fair?.
Well you’d have a good point there if it weren’t for a few simple facts. One being quite a few people from both traditions don’t go to plays, while everyone of one tradition doesn’t go to bonfires. And the associated parades of course. Same deal there. In effect Northern Irish Nationalists are forced to pay some minute figure into their taxes to pay for parading and bonfires that they are not welcome at and will never attend.
Then, really, the biggest victim is the British taxpayer at large. In a country with 30 million taxpayers approximately, 29 million of them get to cough up for the enjoyment of 1 million. And by enjoyment I of course mean singing party tunes, beating a big drum, and doing untold environmental damage each and every year.
Cost is very much a factor, if it weren’t then people like yourself would have no problem applying the same argument you’ve used to justify spending on bonfires above to say Irish language education. Hey, most of those working class Nationalists never go to plays, so let them have their wee schools. But it doesn’t play out like that as well you know.
It would be interesting to see how crucial parading and burning effigies, flags and rubbish is to Loyalist culture, were they actually forced to cough up some of the repair bill, security costs, medical costs, fire service call outs and lost revenues across Northern Ireland.
But then that wouldn’t be fair, as we know Loyalism in NI, well, God’s chosen people. The 29 million taxpayers who sort the party out should be damned glad to do so, to be honoured with the privilege of paying for a bunch of track suit bedecked, tattooed, beer swilling, anti social louts to get out and burn a chunk of land, and the odd house or person.
PS – Any chance of a thread to discuss the delectable, miss 600 votes, ex TUVite Ann Cooper, Northern Ireland’s very own Enoch’s recent coments congratulating the sacked customs officials for breaking the law.
Mark loves to stir up shit but there is absolutely nothing unreasonable about his observations.
Bonfires are organized and widely tolerated lawbreaking. It is illegal to :
* dump rubbish at the side of the road
* burn wood, rubbish, tyres, old electrical gear etc
* put objects on the road which could be a danger to traffic
* damage road surfaces
* consume alcohol in a public place.
* light fires near people’s property, in some cases causing severe damage (thinking about the couple who lost their home this year)
* burning flags and effigies of the pope probably break the incitement to hatred act.
There are other things that are distasteful about it as well. Setting aside the paramilitary angle, I see kids playing in the wood and rubbish that are dumped by people. There are young kids out late at night at the bonfire celebrations who have the fun of witnessing adults getting pissed, high, etc. It feels to me like people shitting in their own nest.
The other vibe that I sometimes get from the whole thing is that such brazen disrespect for the authorities and the law is symptomatic of people who feel that they own the country and don’t have any obligations to follow the rules and regulations therein. A bonfire gets set up annually near my workplace and, around 12 on the day, one of the local thugs comes in to tell everyone that they need to get out otherwise the road will be blocked by the bonfire. In other words, local businesses are ordered to stop by people who have no authority to do so, so that they can erect an illegal structure.
I find the fact that unionists bang on all day about supporting the police and upholding the rule of law fucking hilarious given their open support for the above bullshit. It may well be a long-standing tradition, but the plain and simple fact is that it is, by and large, an anti-social and uncivilized activity and it really should stop.
As for the “republican” scumbags who like to have their own bonfires, I can absolutely guarantee you that most of the people who are unfortunate enough to live in the vicinity of one would be quite happy to see the authorities dismantle said structures and take stiff enforcement action against them. The authorities cannot do this because they would be setting a precedent for loyalist bonfires which would immediately lead to problems. Like everything else, these problems can only be solved by political leadership, and in this instance the only people who can provide that are the unionists.
lamhdearg may have a point here, bonfires may represent value for money in terms of amount of people that attend them. Any festivities this large will have policing/organising costs attached. And given this country’s history 4m over 5years to appease firebugs could be a drop in the ocean.
Of course this point ignores the many other small annoyances attached to them, but case in point (I assume) is value for money, if such a thing exists In this context.
I’ll play
Drumlins, what is the reason Orange Marchers won’t transform into a more carnival mode.:
a) we don’t do humour
b) its about getting one over on the taigs?
Comrade Stalin raisess some good points. They are probably also a hygiene threat; the rats must have a field day when festitivies are over and hamburgers and beer leftovers have to be gobbled up.
I think it is important to understand republican bonfires too and why they existed. Though internment bonfires were instiututed by PIRA types for several reasons, one of the main ones was to supplant the AOH 15th August gigs in memory of The Feast of the Assumption of our Blessed Mother, Mary, Queen of the Gael, into heaven. Together with Loyalist modeled Republican fife and drum bands, the West Belfast festival and a lot more, it played an important part in allowing PIRA colonise working class Catholic areas
Fires also have a pagan resonance. People, not just PIRA pyromaniacs, like them. They have been symbolic long before Judas grassed out Jesus.
These things obviously mean a lot more to our Protestant, Loyalist friends than to the rest of us. But I ask you, dear friends, is English football now better that they have got rid of the fire and death traps that were the footbal stadiums of old? It is time to move on.
Even the English are beginning to do this. Every year, these savages commemmorate the murder of Guy Fawkes and other progressives who tried to take over out the Hitlers of their day. In some of the nicer places in England, where the washed live, these things are controlled. There is a controlled fireworks display, people are well behaved and all then go home.
The unwashed, meanwhile, leave their rockets and god knows what else off wherever they like for about a month prior to and after Guy Fawkes (all time hero) day. It is like the battle of the Somme every day. One general problem is the unwashed are allowed colonise public spaces and make threatening spectacles of themselves; the Loyalist bonfires fall into that category and Comrade Stalin has already alluded to such incidents in his work locale.
Then the Sikhs have to be in on the act as well. More fireworks for their holy day. And many others too no doubt. Noise pollution seems acceptable.
Irish nationalists are moving on. (Neil, please don’t use phrases like Northern Irish nationalists as it defies logic; you mean Irish Nationalists living in the six occupied counties). Time for Loyalists to do the same.
Mark: any figures on rat plagues and the marching season, I bet they had a bumper season this year. Plenty of sex and little baby rats, all due to our Orange friends.
And yes, Catholics should clean up after them (and hide their tattooed beer bllies under their Spedos) when they go to the beach etc.
Well, bonfires with ritual burning and destruction of cultural symbols, probably constitutes ‘performance art’
Just for the record, I am no big fan of bonfires, I have attended one every year for the past 5 or 6 yrs because my sister live right beside it and I help her keep an eye on things, lets say the PVC windows get quite warm when it is at its peak, no harm has been done to date, just have to keep an eye on thing, the black soot everywhere is disgusting though.
Cant remember seeing the Fire Brigade there recently, but in the past they generally turned up but did not have to take any action, it was precautionary, and appeared to be a good chance to do some community relations with the local young people.
I would agree better organisation is needed for many bonfire sites and others should be scaled back or ended, but stunts like Marks here are the best way to ensure that does not happen.
I would say 90% of bonfire building is carried out by under 18 yr olds, and rarely if ever is there an “official organiser” sometimes adults can have some influence if they provide an alternative distraction, this is where the funding goes ie. “look guys if you keep the tyres of of the bonny this yr we will get a DJ to put on a bit of a show for you”.
This method is bearing some fruits, and as Mark acknowledges the incidents requiring the Fire Brigade are falling, however the non stop whinge from Nationalists over these schemes and their funding is undermining the efforts and making it much harder to make the changes needed.
Maybe because I dont usually make a big deal about Bonfires my “mock outrage” is uncalled for, but it is so blatantly obvious that Mark does not give a toss about the Fire Service Budget, or the “roads service repair costs” (probably the next big exclusive he will wet himself with glee to report to us), but in reality it is just a thinly disguised petty minded biggoted attempt at Prod bashing by someone who nostagically looks back on days when his “comrades” really give the Fire Service something to deal with.
Mark does need to up his game, when a gem is found, it needs elevating, not leaving in the gutter.
Drum, dya agree that Chris Connelly’s thread on wee Jeffrey’s silly wriggling was nearer the mark?
Jeff “more wriggly” than a spearmint gum.. ola
but it is so blatantly obvious that Mark does not give a toss about the Fire Service Budget, or the “roads service repair costs” (probably the next big exclusive he will wet himself with glee to report to us), but in reality it is just a thinly disguised petty minded biggoted attempt at Prod bashing
Sounds like you have a fear of people finding out the actual bottom line cost for parading in NI, and well you should. These discussions in Scotland have led to the suggestion that the OO will have to pay something for the right to disrupt everyone’s lives.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/orange-order-to-be-billed-for-policing-scottish-parades-14475200.html
Considering the policing for three parades in Scotland where likely there is less poolicing required came to 1 million I can only imagine what the associated costs of the parading season here might be over the 2,000 Orange approx parades.
It’s not ‘biggoted’ (sic) to point out facts to people. Facts are just facts. And it’s highly amusing to see the hypocrisy coming from your good self in that a) you are entitled to make your feelings known about, say, Irish language education while any Nationalist who makes their opinion known regarding your community is an instant bigot and b) how pointing out the financing of these parades and the facts surrounding how they are financed and how much they cost is simply ‘biggoted’ (sic).
I would say 90% of bonfire building is carried out by under 18 yr olds, and rarely if ever is there an “official organiser”
The old chestnut eh? Ah well, that parade has nothing to do with us we didn’t organise it, or the 11th night has nothing to do with the 12th July we didn’t organise it, yeah they carry a Brian Robinson banner but but but we didn’t organise it so we didn’t.
Load of ballix. If I said the rioters on the 12th had nothing to do with the peaceful sit down protest beforehand you’d laugh me out of town. But but but, we didn’t organise it, there was no official organiser. Hands washed, nothing to do with us.
The real fire problem is arson – where young people regard setting things on fire as a laugh. The cost is enormous and lives are taken.
Two unemptied wheelie bins near me set alight against an NIE ‘pillar’ – cost £75,000.
The council said their lids were elevated so emptying them was not permitted on health and safety grounds.
If a big building is destroyed we are talking millions in one incident.
David Ford needs to undertake a review of arson costs, deterrence and sentencing policy for something that understandably used to carry the death penalty.
“The real fire problem is arson – where young people regard setting things on fire as a laugh. The cost is enormous and lives are taken. Two unemptied wheelie bins near me set alight against an NIE ‘pillar’ – cost £75,000. The council said their lids were elevated so emptying them was not permitted on health and safety grounds.”
Unbelievable.
See, THIS is the nonsense that should be getting written up. I was going to post a reply to this last night, but I didn’t. I didn’t because I do not take away from Mark’s right to post on these things. I do not take away from his heated fervour on the subject. I do not take away from his outrage – pretence or otherwise.
But what does bother me, is that with all the talk of cutting costs, there are myriad inefficiencies which are falling through the net; so many agencies and statutory organisations who simply by the fact that they are lazy, have too many ‘rules’, or engage in the eternal ‘it’s not our responsibility’ argument, that millions get wasted just through sheer indolence and a lack of care. And what’s worse is, it is everywhere – public sector, private sector, community and voluntary sectors.
I’m just wondering if this is something that deserves a little thread of suggestions; it might perhaps attract a little more cross-community attention, and a little less whataboutery, and may even be more widely constructive in the long run.
How about a disclaimer – ‘communities holding bonfires do so at their own risk’
End of story
pay for it, hit them in their pockets.
leading to sorry websites called
“Bonfire for Bigots” dot.com please donate
keep bigotry alive
you couldn’t make it up !
You’re right – they are your taxes [if you pay]. Head South – no more ludicrous problems about the money you have to pay to Her Majesties Exchequer for pointless Unionist activities…:)
The authorities cannot do this because they would be setting a precedent for loyalist bonfires which would immediately lead to problems. Like everything else, these problems can only be solved by political leadership, and in this instance the only people who can provide that are the unionists.
Ah don’t you just love the ‘value consensus’ and the knock on effect of moral if not legal relativity at play here. Politicians applying democratically elected soft power, the inbetween-the-lines-pressure stuff and support of said bonfires to encourage authorities to look the other way on enfrocement till soft power can change the approaches to bonfires (think the beacon at Stoneyford).
Mind you soft power may just be a cop out if not excuse to let such people and organisers off the hook of health and safety and environmental laws.
Obviously, as Comrade Stalin highlights, you would think that the law and its application is a universal thing and that such values are universal i.e. values which we all should adhere to and face punishment where the law has seen to be broken.
But based on the above evidence that viewpoint is clearly wrong!
Ps Keep up the good work Mark, it’s informative if nothing else!!
if they want to charge then there would need to competitive tendering to be fair,
indeed, except that i’m sussex, and we have 1 bonfire a year Nov 5th, paid for by local groups!
which reminds me, Nov 5th is a genuine bonfire commemoration of trying to blow up the houses of parliament.
What significance are bonfires in Ulster.
also isn’t one clelebration a year on say 1st July or 11th July enough.
Why can’t you just be normal?
I have to agree with Drumlins Rock on all points but one.
I’m happy to hear how much bonfires cost as I don’t have any investment in them.
It is however true that the bonfires are organised by youngsters, not by organisations – it is a key element in youth culture in some areas – once you get a job you leave it behind.
Also, much different from the 12th, it is a secular occurance with the focus on protestants making a decision to stay in Ireland. It is saying “Here I am, this is my home”.
You may not appreciate them – i certainly don’t – but we have to put up with a lot of things in life and “They aren’t going away.” Certainly if your interest in bonfires is to do with safety and saving money, go ahead, but remember it’s kids you are attacking.
Fires also have a pagan resonance
Indeed; the Celts have been lighting bonfires especially at Beltane (hooray, hooray, the 1st of May, outdoor fucking starts today) for thousands of years. How many people visit campsites (or the beach in front of my house); there are always lots of fires where people sit around and share jokes and tell lies.
Lighting fires is the most primative thing in the species of man – hence its continuation. A true quality of the human race.
Here is another matter for our dear Unionist friends. I realise many of the marchers/revellers are, in part, commemorating the Battle of the Somme, 36th Ulster etc, who were very lucky – and brave – on the day compared to their fellow Brits, many of whom, I have been reliably told, went over the top crying as they knew they were not coming back.
Given that there gallant heroes, or some of them at any rate, fell gloriously for King and Country, would it not make better sense to just commemorate them on Poppy Day?
The Aussies, who had an unenviable reputation for killing prisoners out of hand, march on Anzac Day. During the terrorist attack on Turkey at Gallipoli, more Irish and French trooops died at the hands of the gallant Turkish defenders than ANZACS. Yet, for good or bad, the Aussies have forged their myth out of this, much like our dear Protestant brothers in Jesus and the 36th, who died for King and Country and who lie in a far off foreign field that will be forever, er, England.
So why not just get boozed up in November? Poms do it, Jocks do, even Taffies do, so let’s do it, let’s scrap the Orange crap.
really useful ideas
alan I especially love your:”here I am this is my home ”
alan M, that poppy day commemoration is hard to beat
So easy. Just like that, as dear Tommy Cooper would have said. Get a grip, Alan, you are barking up a dead tree which belongs on a bonfire.
Culture has been described as the passing on of group knowledge from one generation to another. So, whether it’s a good idea or not, it’s here to stay, for a while at least.
Mark has a fair point, why should the rest of soceity have to pay for the illegal activities of a minority. Who in their right minds would agree with the local council going to a builders yard and buying wood to the burn on a bonfire. Where else in the world would you get grants to help destroy the environment.
burning timber is carbon neutral, and bonfires exist in many societies, often government sponsored.
Never heard anyone ever saying it was about the Somme – until now !
What was it about before the Somme ?
As we’re all purely interested in saving money, I wonder how much we’d save by stopping the funding to religious schools? Afterall, the pupils could all just attend the state system. The synergies would be enormous. And it wouldn’t be sectarian either as both sides of the divide would be affected.