Ruane commissions four new Irish language schools…
The reason Caitriona Ruane has been struggling to fulfil her party brief to end selection in schools is that she lacks the power to do so. However she does have carte blanche in allocating budgets, which is one reason why she has decided (albeit conditionally) to fund four new Irish language schools in Magherafelt, Kilkeel, Limavady and Ballymena.
Yet as the Belfast Telegraph noted yesterday, there is a 27% vacancy rate in that sector already. In fact there are some 50,000 vacant places the primary sector overall, with the Integrated sector being one of the few that has substantial turn away figure of 650 pupils.
Now the approval is conditional on getting the admission rates, so the Minister has made it clear that the schools will not be funded if they haven’t got the admissions to justify it. But 50 k unfilled places suggests that if Ms Ruane wants to continue open some schools, she is going to have to close others.
And if that were to be the case, the resources she would then free up ought to move to where there is demonstrable demand. But, if those who have played Alan’s Fantasy d’Hondt are right, then the Department should stay with her after the next election, so there is little possibility of a rival slicing back the Irish medium sector after the next Assembly election.
This looks like an attempt to get a few last goodies through the door before the CSR in October closes the door on substantial future investment by putting 15%-16% squeeze on overall budgets. Her political gamble here is that in continuing to roll the sector out, she forsakez the consolidation of what capacity that’s already there.
Topic: Government, Society and Culture
Region: Northern Ireland
Concubhar O’Liathain
I agree the Irish language has grown substantially and this is by the hard work of those in the background who have maintained their focus and their independence.
Well said, mo chara. It’s symptomatic of a way of thinking rooted in, at the very least, the Edwardian era (sorely tempted to go back further). Irish is an officially recognised language of the EU and the British Govt have obligations to protect it – obligations which are internationally monitored.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10614402
Setting aside the emotive and cultural arguments though, for a society emerging from conflict, and at a time when we need to prioritise according to post-recession (hopefully) resources, shouldn’t integrationist policies be higher on the agenda than this?
“You seem to think that Irish speakers are fanatics, possibly terrorists, of the type that are educated in Madrasses. That’s an entirely ignorant and xenophobic attitude to hold”
Ironical.
I am not opposed to Irish Language medium education. I support it and hope it thrives – but there is a legal requirement for equality and fairness and we don’t seem to be seeing that. The gripe isn’t the development of Irish Medium – its that when other schools and falling down and Irish Medium schools cannot fill current places, money is being diverted to the area with over provision.
@Concubhar: I agree that SF have tried to monopolise their association with the Irish language. I recall once seeing Caitriona Ruane answer a question put to her in English, during Ministerial Questions, in Irish, before then saying the English answer. This sort of winding-up does no good for the language or its popularity. Now, if the question had been asked in Irish, she has every right to answer it in Irish. But, in this instance, it was asked by a Unionist in English. Answering in Irish first could serve no other function, but irritate him and that’s not a way to ensure the language remains as depoliticised as possible and appeals to the widest mass possible.
Totally agree4 …but SF and DUP will never move towards that as their voters might gradually realise they have more in common with each other than they do with those whom the vote for.
I disagree Hard Hat, but I definitely see your point (especially in the current political climate).
But Irish need not be divisive – see my discussion above. A great many Protestants in the past spoke it and indeed many Europeans on the Continent have learned it. It’s when parties try to bounce it about as a political football, that the innate value of the language becomes clouded. As a language, it’s a beatiful portal into achieving a great insight into who we are and where we’ve come from (eg, the links with Scots Gaelic, being an obvious example too). We need not be cynical about the Irish language, but examples such as that which I raised above are counterproductive to the genuine promotion of the language for all – especially since as an official language of the EU, it can provide such positive advantages.
They do it by choosing to use Irish to score political points, there was precious little of it on display whenever they went to America.
I have no problem with people speaking Irish badly, I speak Irish badly! I just make sure I keep my efforts to the class room and my more tolerant, friends. I have a problem with people using a language as a political weapon. And whats this about English language schools? Virtually every school in Ireland is an English language school! It may have escaped your notice but the Irish version of English, like the American, Australian versions, has a style and culture of its own. Some of the greatest authors in the world were Irish. The ability to take a language and make it our own is one we should be proud of and it in no way diminishes our own language. Not a bit.
Cynic – agree re covert political fear of integration – from the “motherhood and apple pie” blog: ” Do the churches fear the threat of disruption of their stable feed of parishioners to their pews, or the politicians fear that they might have to work for votes instead of their usually guaranteed electoral base?”
Charminator – fully understand and agree it need not be divisive. I have to ask though, is it practical right now? Would a comprehensive, structured approach that includes a development plan but puts integration measures to the forefront fit the bill. Our society has changed significantly for the better but we still see youngsters, sometimes of primary school age, taking up their apprenticeships in hostility without any real sense of why. The sooner we tackle this, the sooner we will have voting generations that genuinely see us without the two communities labels. Then we’re cooking.
Decisions on individual school capacities should not be made by the minister, but by planning application. Funding should then follow the student, with allowances made for deprived areas. The important principle is that ministers should not routinely decide on individual cases, because this leaves open not only the potential for abuse of power, but the perception of such abuse even if none was there.
And yes, I agree that the long-term goal should be for all schools to be integrated. This may not be practical in some areas due the minimum 30% requirement, and so some denominational schools will probably remain, but these should be exceptions rather than the norm.
I couldn’t disagree with you more Pippakin, the battle for the Irish language has not been won, as is evident with the hysterical nature of this thread.
I think the real problem here is that people don’t like seeing SF being assertive and using their power in the executive in what many consider to be a very draconian matter.
Furthermore, we don’t hear much from SDLP on this. You would say it’s because they don’t want to play politics with it, I would think it’s because they don’t give a rats about it.
This matter should be dealt with comprehensively in conjunction with an Irish Language Bill so that SF doesn’t have to go about this unilaterally but within an agreed framework. I won’t hold my breath though.
Also, someone’s previous reference to Irish Medium schools as hibernomadrassas? – utterly pathetic.
I’m glad I don’t live back home with such trolls still in existence
Kevin Barry
SF do not own the Irish language and I would argue they have done more to hinder its acceptance and progress in the north than any unionist could do.
Non one should use a language as a political stick to beat the opposition with. The number of people who admire such tactics can probably be counted on the SF membership list.
It should be perfectly normal for our indigenous language/s to be taught in all schools, and I believe the less SF and Ruane in particular have to do with it, the better. After all she is not concentrating on expanding learning to all schools, just on opening new and unnecessary schools.
I dont find this thread hysterical I think their has been one or two comments which were bitter and twisted but thats all.
[...] you keep on working to find a way to convince yourself that it's all a mean old DUP conspiracy. Ruane commissions four new Irish language schools… Slugger O'Toole UTV News – Ruane reveals school building list Ruane under fire over funding for Irish schools – [...]
I agree with you Pippakin that SF don’t own the Irish language, that’s obvious. However, the point being is could you really envisage Irish medium schools being opened in a spirit of co-operation with Unionist parties?
Furthermore, the schools are to be built on the condition of meeting occupancy rates. Their may be spare desks in Irish medium schools in Derry that should either be filled or funding cut to these schools, but funding will be made available to children in the Kilkeel area where there’ll be a demand that has to be made.
The problem with what should be a normal debate on school funding in this particular sector is that while I agree that SF has definitely politicised the matter, however, last time I checked Unionists have consistently showed barely concealed contempt for the language leaving little room for compromise on this issue.
You either find Irish medium schools a luxury or a manifestation of a community’s desire to keep alive a language.
Kevin Barry
A community’s desire to keep a language alive? Nonsense, the language is in no danger. SF have politicised the language to the point where of course unionists dig their heels in. The task for reasonable people is to take the sectarian issue out of it. I dont want to hear Ruane answer in Irish a question addressed to her in English and by someone she knows is unlikely to speak Irish! What is the point other than to show off her poor language skills and insult the questioner.
It is obvious to most reasonable people that SF do not own the Irish language. Has anyone told them that do you think.
Pippakin,
‘SF have politicised the language to the point where of course unionists dig their heels in.’
Agreed that SF have somewhat politicised the language, however, unionists dug their heels in a very long time ago on this your post should probably read:
‘unionists dig their heels in to the point where of course SF have politicised the language’
Let’s be honest here, put aside your clear hatred for SF for a moment and tell me, do you really think that unionism would not have been open to compromise on this issue if SF where not about? A massive hypothetical, but my opinion is that they inherently hate Irish and have done everything and used every excuse to thwart it’s promotion here so it was inevitable that it was going to become politicised.
Who said the language is in any kind of danger? Your words, not mine, and thanks mainly to those who work tirelessly in the Irish medium sector there’s no danger of it going under. Also, how is it not a community’s desire to keep a language alive? Use it or lose it is applicable here.
Whether you like it or not, Unionism has consistently made its position clear on where it stands with the Irish language whether it is referring to it in derogatory terms (leprechaun related nonsense) or hindering it’s promotion at every turn (it’s a luxury, rather than part of a community’s culture and history).
It would be nice if this was merely an argument on funding, however, as with everything in NI, it’s about simple point scoring against the other side and both sides are very guilty of this.
Fair play to the minister, who at the end of the day has simply followed the law.
Many irish speakers think Caitríona is a ‘traitor’ etc. but I think that is nonsense.
Unionists will squeal of course but at the end of the day they are completely ignoring the facts – the sector is growing, therefore there are sopposedly empty seats in new schools – in reality however the school is likely to be merely a portakabin and those seats do no0t in reality exist.
Maith thú a Chaitríona – na Gaeil Abú.
By the way Mick – no school were ‘commisioned’.
Why do you need to embelish?
Kevin Barry
Somewhat politicised?? they have made a determined attempt to make it their own and as you can see on other comments here the reason they have not been entirely successful is the hard work of the Irish speaking community.
I don’t hate SF, but I do hate large chunks of their past and their present actions/lack of re outstanding charges and the Irish language. I actually hope Martin McGuinness becomes the next first minister. I believe he works quietly toward a UI and in way to bring independents and even some reluctant unionists on side. He is not a one man band however and there is a lot of baggage, some of it his! to be overcome/looked.
Given the past and unionist intransigence it was always going to be difficult to put the Irish language in all schools, My dismay is because I believe SF have exacerbated the problem, nothing they do seems to be aimed at solving it.
Pippakin,
While I agree with large amounts of what you are saying, where we essentially differ is this:
You dislike the way this issue has become a political football and blame SF for this;
I believe that Unionism has made a consistent effort against Irish and that this meant that in order for the issue to be resolved favourably for Irish medium schools it was going to get politicised.
I wish it hadn’t but it has and I can deal with it. I wish it could have been dealt with in the spirit that Martin McGuinness has dealt with other thorny issues but on this one it seems apparent that Unionism is not willing to compromise whatsoever.
As I said earlier, I think it would have been better for all parties concerned if their was an Irish Language Act where something co-ordinated and within an agreed framework could be hammered out, however, we all know where unionism stands on this so unilateral action is needed instead.
As for my accusation of perceived hatred of SF, cheerfully withdrawn.
As they say, to assume is to make an ass of you and me
Kevin Barry
The ‘unilateral’ action needed is for the British govt to tell everyone that Irish and Ulster Scots are to go into every school no matter what!
If SF would STFU about the language and let the dust settle, it might even happen. If they don’t, if they keep ramming Irish down the throats of the reluctant, they not only make unionists more intransigent than ever, they make it extremely difficult for the Brits, or anyone to deal with, especially as we all know they would be crowing ‘victory’ in English!
And no Im not happy the Brits still have the authority to do that, but they do, and until nationalists win an outright, democratic victory that is how it will remain. I believe it is in the interest of nationalism that the ‘heat’ is taken out of the debate.
How are they ramming this down the throats of the reluctant?
If a child doesn’t want to go to an Irish Medium School then so be it. This is being passed so that those who want to go to an Irish Medium School can.
Those who want to send their kids to an Irish medium school shouldn’t have to receive the blessing of politicians who hate the very idea of all things Irish.It would be nice if they realised that they aren’t going to win this fight and decide to come to some kind of compromise, but I won’t hold my breath.
And once again, we are back to the point where we differ; you think it’s SF politicisation of the language has lead to unionist intransigence while I note that they haven’t been enamoured to the whole idea of the Irish language in the North for a very long time, thus making any kind of compromise a distant possibility.
The British Govt should not have to come swanning in and tell people that Irish will be promoted in schools in NI, this should have been a compromise by all parties concerned and it should have been something concrete rather than sent to committee. Obviously, you’re going to say that this is impossible as SF rams the language down the throats of those who don’t want it, again, I think this has come out of unionist intransigence.
As with many things that have happened here in the past 15 years, the side who feels most aggrieved should swallow their pride and deal with it. After all, this isn’t the release of prisoners or having to go back to Stormont, it’s a language.
Also, I don’t think that if SF kept quiet that compromise would be reached on this, the simple reason being is that the majority of unionist politicians hate the Irish language.
Kevin Barry
So close and yet so far! The difference between all nationalists and republicans.
When I said SF were ramming the Irish language down the throats of the reluctant I meant the times they choose to speak it. Not the introduction of the schools. I just think that is a waste of money and resources.
Indeed Pippakin,
Unfortunately, we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Though I do agree that this could definitely have been dealt with better as follows:
i) Ruane not answering Tom Elliot in Irish (I hope I got that right). I’m not saying she’s not entitled to, just not the best way to start to bring about an atmosphere of compromise;
ii) Announcing funding for something that a large section of the community does not like/hate especially after figures came out about occupancy rates.She should have dealt with these figures and noted more robustly that she can’t ask children in Kilkeel to fill desks in Derry and that the funding is to be made on condition of occupancy rates.
iii) Discuss the large difference in funding between IM and English medium schools, explain why this is, how she plans
to deal with this and set out a timetable.
iv) Deal with the funding of intergrated schools. I agree with the funding of these schools and there’s clearly a demand for them.
All in all, the policy of opening IM schools where there’s a demand is welcome (by me at least) but she should have dealt with these other issues in a more thought out way.
Unfortunately, common sense isn’t that common.
Kevin Barry
Agree to disagree? Not so, I agree with all of your last post, except IM schools should not be necessary Irish should be firmly on the curriculum of all schools.
Ah the irony
Anyway, in my opinion the best way to learn a language is to be immersed in it, not have a period or two a day and then back to English or your medium of choice.
“It should be perfectly normal for our indigenous language/s to be taught in all schools…” – Pippakin
“The ‘unilateral’ action needed is for the British govt to tell everyone that Irish and Ulster Scots are to go into every school no matter what!“ – Pippakin
“Irish should be firmly on the curriculum of all schools.” – Pippakin (My emphasis in all quotes above).
Yes, this is the very same Pippakin who thinks that it is …”SF [who] were ramming the Irish language down the throats of the reluctant…”
Furthermore, this is someone from the Republic of Ireland where generations of children have testified as to how how they were left feeling bruised and antagonistic towards the language by its mandatory inclusion on the curriculum or, as Pippakin might more colourfully put it, ” Having the Irish language rammed down their throats.”
“Pot and kettle…” doesn’t quite do justice here.
Rory Carr
Still with the vendetta? What is the point of commenting to you when you fire your little poison darts from London and never respond when corrected, as you invariably are.
BTW You still have not answered the question about the ‘hidden agenda’ …Nor did you mention the cat, read the little blog, it’ll bring tears to your eyes…
Unsurprising to see the usual suspects lambaste the Irish language. Its defenders have been, again unsurprisingly, more factual. Irish language school help to keep out the riff raff, Micky Mudd and Paddy Stink and that is what the new Ireland wants. And if you are thinking of torturing and killing some more GAA members, do remember that the GAA is the outfit of choice for Ireland’s soccer mums, who dump them off at their local clubs
The Irish language, like the GAA and the RC Church is, in large part, upwardly mobile middle class, a place Sinn Fein do not belong.
As regards kicking religion (code for Popery) out of schools, sure the Orangies have been at that for ages. In England, meanwhile, religious schools far outperform the Micky Mudd non religious schools. That is why so many social climbers and bar room atheists find religion: so their kids can crawl up the social ladder and be even more revolting than their parents..
Given the social climbing imperatives, I am surprised these schools are not full of kids. maybe the fault is Sinn Fein’s: butting in where they clearly do not belong.
Alan Maskey
When I say ‘kick religion out of schools’ I am not discriminating! Chuck the whole lot of em out! and consign the catholic and protestant power politics to the history books and the rubbish bin.
Pippakin,
Despite your paranoia I assure you that I am pursuing no vendetta but merely, now and again, pointing out some of the obvious inanities in your thinking. Perhaps, as I have done with your arguments, you might wish to counter mine.
Are you denying the statements of yours which I have quoted above? Do you not see the ridiculousness of your insistence that Irish should be forcibly taught in all schools, including presumably state schools which have a predominantly Protestant catchment and which might be presumed, given the hysterical fear of Irish from this quarter, to be absolutely opposed to their children being exposed to the “Fenian tongue”? Would that not be “ramming it down people’s throats”, which is the very sin of which you accuse Sinn Féin of being guilty ?
I have no idea what you are talking about with this “hidden agenda” business. What on earth do you mean?
As for your cats, I do hope that you are not in the habit of ramming things down their throats.
Rory Carr
An answer! Oh my, you will have to give me a few minutes to recover.
Are you suggesting I should hold a grudge against the Irish language because of the behaviour of some sadistic nuns? How absurd! Of course the Irish language should be on the curriculum of all schools in the north, just as it is in the south. I don’t care if the pupil is catholic or protestant. In fact, given half a chance, I would as I have stated above banish religion from all schools. You should be thankful, at least I have no ambition to banish people as the ‘military’ wing of the party you support has done in the past.
As for paranoia, it was not my suggestion. I have no problem with anyone either correcting me when Im wrong, which happens more often than I like and teaches me to be more careful, or disagreeing with me, which again happens more often than I like!
I never try to ram anything down anyones throat, even if its for their own good…
Cats are not my passion, they are part, but only part, of the joy in my life.
It’s probably of more concern that essential work within schools has not been undertaken this summer, because the Education Boards are unable to spend any money and are unclear about their budgets.
Pippakin,
In your response to mine you once again demonstrate just why it seem such a futile exercise in ever responding to you. You have completely ignored my arguments and instead go off imagining that I am “suggesting I [you] should hold a grudge against the Irish language because of the behaviour of some sadistic nuns”, which is not something I said or implied. It’s all about the personal with you and that allows you to completely avoid addressing or taking responsibility for the import of anything you have previously stated.
Can you not see thatt if you make a demand that Irish be taught in all schools “no matter what” (as you earlier insisted above) then you are taking a political stance? You are politicising the teaching of Irish which is exactly what you accuse Sinn Féin of doing.
Not that this is intrinsically wrong since it is a matter already in the political arena – Unionism insured that and ensures that it remains there. You may disagree with Sinn Féin’s political strategy or tactics in this regard but you can hardly condemn them for having a political position when you youself hold a very strong one – you, not SinnFéin, would, “ram Irish down the throats” of all children whether they liked it or not.
I, of course, would not use such emotive language, and I happen to think that the universal teaching of Irish, if handled well, might be valuable but you would have a hell of a job implementing that policy if ever (which I doubt) you could have it accepted.
Now, enough of this “ramming things down people’s throats”, if you please, it leaves a nasty taste in the mouth.
Rory Carr
My goodness, twice in one day, and both times wrong!!!! such bliss I assure you seldom comes my way.
The Irish language has become political when it should not have, that is not my fault. It is not even SFs fault, although they can certainly be blamed for exacerbating the situation, as I often do.
To me it is not a question of politics, all politicians should get the f***k out of the schools, as should all religions. It is about education and recognising the place of both Irish and Ulster Scots in our history and in our future. You will I hope have noticed that I give equal prominence to both.
I certainly can condemn anyone who uses a language as a political stick to beat others with, they diminish themselves and, even worse, the language.
Im sure it does leave a nasty taste, still as long as it fits in your hand..
I was musing to myself just now if excluding people from a good school because they do not wish to speak Irish could be considered a form of academic selection, and associated denial of equal rights, that SF say they are trying to correct.
There has to be something said for children to have the opportunity to learn Gaelic at school, but the issue that is raised, and raised well is that many many people in Northern Ireland do not have their ancestoral roots in Ireland, and some from this realise that the Gaelic is not something that is part of their history.
What more the modern Irish Gaelic negates the issue of regional Gaelic, that there never was one pan-Irish dialect, but now due to the constraints of promoting the Irish language in such a regional way there has been constructed a modern Irish which has been modelled in a manner so all Irish-speakers can communicate effectively.
Where is the problem? I beleive it centres that there is a lie that modern Irish was the indigeonous langauge of Ireland, and that all Irish people spoke it. The Anglo-Norman who are now very much part of Irish society (Fitzpatrick, D’Arcy and De Brun being just some non-Irish names that travelled with the Normans) did not speak Irish as their native tongue. Are they to be denied their Irishness becasue of that?
That the Gaels were the indigenous people of Ireland is dubious in itself, as they were the last of the Celts to arrive here. That means that their language was not the first spoken by a majority. So the Gaels came and dominated, and in some manners this makes it as much of a colonial mark as English. So who and what are the Irish is not the mark of a language, there is no solid Irish nation with a shared genesis, but a collection of different groups with different identities who have contributed to Irish Culture and ritual and taken from it.
So, if Gaelic is not the indigenous language of Ireland, nor English, nor Latin, nor Scots then can SF stop stating that this is the ‘Irish Language’? It undermines the cultures of those who are Irish, but not of Irish descent. Or perhaps Irish Nationalism will show that it really is nationalism in the truist sense and deny others the culture and heritage that has followed them.
Celts, Gaels, Vikings, Normans, Saxons, English, Scots, Polish, Nigerian, Spanish, French, Dutch, etc… you must all give up your descendancy and hail the new, purpose made Irish Culture. I think not. Multi-culture is the key, the sooner we realise and respect this the sooner we can move on from the debate of Irish Unity or UK over ‘cultural’ tit-for-tat and we can have a good debate on why we in Northern Ireland would ever benefit from a NEW Irish state.
Comrade Stalin
Interesting, but I do not accept the concept that any parent would or should be able to select which bit of education their child receives, with the exception of certain sex educational subjects.
It is not satisfactory for a parent to deny their child the same educational benefits other children receive on the grounds they do not approve of a particular lesson or language. Such a parent would be showing a purely sectarian interest and an extremely one sided view of history.
Put the poor choice of wording down to some haste. But what are these facts? The facts quoted above come from the Minister.
…………at least until the churches can agree a common religious curriculum that can be taught in all schools. If the faiths have more in common than than differences, shouldn’t be that difficult unless……………
Hard hat
Oh well, in that case…Na, no way, kick em out and keep em out.
Pippakin, not saying I disagree, but why would you still exclude them, on that basis? Wouldn’t that actually focus minds on common ground?
Hard hat
I don’t like organised religion generally, seems to me the only thing the churches ever helped was themselves and since they would be unlikely to teach that, they would have no honest or useful purpose.
amo
Be careful you sound as though you are saying the Irish are not uniquely Celtic. We are not of course. I think UCD did some research and have suggested we are not even Celts! certainly not more so than any other country, the UK for instance…
The Irish language is an important part of our culture and history and I do think it and Ulster Scots should be on the curriculum of all schools in the north as well as the south.
More importantly they’d learn that we really are different from each other but that we are both groups of good people standing up for our rights, and that living in a dream world where the other “side” will some day be “converted, or where the other side will be granted any less rights than we wish for ourselves, including in the issue of self determination, is to sign up to fight on the side of evil.
See what I mean? You might as well be talking to her f**king cats.
socaire!
What is your problem now???
Do try to have an opinion this time, not just the usual slurs and insults and flights of fancy. The subject is Ruane introducing IM schools when there are already half empty schools. I would rather Irish is introduced to all schools.
It is important to realise that Gaelic is not the ancestral language of all in Northern Ireland, as it is also not in Scotland. This should mean that in Northern Ireland,
A) People should have the right to not have their children spend time learning Irish in schools.
B) People should have the right not to be discriminated against for a lack of ability in Irish.
This is one area where Northern Ireland should rightfully and morally be different from the Republic of Ireland, irrespective of even constitutional issues and state borders, just as Welsh is treated differently in Wales from the way that Gaelic is treated in Scotland.
>many Europeans on the Continent have learned it
About as many people on the continent as have collected every issue of 2000 AD, if not less.