Photographs of the Day – 12th photographs at Barnett Demense

Yesterday’s annual 12th Demonstration saw me head up to the field at Barnett Demense. Normally i would cover the warm up and gathering around Templemore Ave then the walk into the city centre. This year i decided to forgo this (and get a lie in) to head up to the point of destination at Barnett Demense. I had a vague notion to document the various banners and to look at the family nature of the gathering at the field and perhaps get a few portraits. I should perhaps explain that i grew up C of I so the parades and the like do not strike a chord of fear in me on first hearing as it would and does with some of my friends. In fact i quite like the spectacle of it all(reminding me as it does of innocent times).

Arriving approx 45 mins before the parade from the city centre, i stood at the entrance to Barnett Demense for 20 or so mins. I was surprised at the number of (unopened) carry outs being brought into the Council owned property.

It was obvious to me that quite a few of the younger followers were already the worse for wear through drink and would most certainly get drunker before they got soberer. Taking a quick walk around the field before the first  Lodges and bands arrived i saw a number of disparate groups of youths (10-20 in each), who were already tanked up and throwing abuse at anyone who didn’t conform to their dress standards and lack of sobriety. Ignoring the abuse but making a mental note to give the groups a wide berth later, i headed back to the entrance when i heard the first chords of music blaring out. This turned out to be a mini bus full of evangelists handing tracts out to hymns blasting out of their tannoy system.

The first lodge and band entered to cheers and claps as they walked up and as can be seen (in the first photograph above) a follower in a Spanish  football shirt gleefully walked alongside them slugging away from a can of green.

As the lodges and bands kept coming i did manage to get a few portraits and

shots of the banners……

As more and more Lodges and bands arrived it became harder to keep up with them all and my idea of getting photographs of as many of the banners as possible soon became nigh on impossible. It also became increasingly difficult to avoid the drunken youths (and their abuse) that were stumbling around with glazed eyes, a few of whom had UVF flags wrapped around their waists. Indeed a tv crew from down south(RTE?) were forced to move as they were pelted with pine cones by a group of around 20 or 30 youths.

Now setting aside the issue of drink being taken i was impressed with the organisation of some of the Lodges who in what seemed like no time at all, had bbq’s set up to provide the members with tea,sandwiches and burgers. There was a real feeling of comradeship amongst them. They were happy and proud to be out and about on this day. It’s a side of ‘Orangefest’ that should really be played up indeed the OO should play to their strengths as regards this.

It’s my view that  a zero tolerance attitude should be taken towards the consumption of alcohol at  the field (at the very least) which would go some way to placating the detractors of the annual demonstration.

I do think the Orange Order has a long way to go to gain confidence in the wider community and the irony of Temperance Lodges being led by bands that will retire to the beer tent (where i didn’t venture to) to fuel up for a couple of hours wasn’t lost on me nor should it be lost on you the reader or the leadership and advisors to the OO. My feeling is that drink is the major issue around the annual demonstrations particularly amongst the younger followers. That a Council owned property allows such open displays of drunkenness seems at odds with the so called inclusiveness of the days events(and stated council policy). It could also be argued that this adds fuels to the argument that the day is nothing more than a triumphalist display sending the message that the OO and it’s followers will do pretty much as they please.

I’ll finish with a photograph that i found (and still find) profoundly depressing. So much so, that combined with the vague threats bandied about meant that i left after only an hour and a half up at the field. If these two are the future i fear we have a very long way to go before Orangefest becomes something that we can all be proud of.

For the unitinitiated KAT = Kill All Taigs(Catholics)

FAP = F*ck All Paramilitaries or F*ck All Papists

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  • Brasco

    drink, sectarianism and hypocrisy nothing we don`t already know about the OO….

    but then its culture!

  • MP, I’d imagine that drink and drunkenness has been an issue for a very long time – hence the existence of (nominally) temperance lodges probably for the best part of a hundred years. I must have a look to see if there are ‘no drinking’ signs in Bushmills. I could have taken photos of bandsmen having a leak in the field – but didn’t. The relief of Derry came to mind 🙂

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Thank God there’s no alcohol fuelled bigotry on St Paddys Day.

    All backs up something my late granda used to stay — ‘the two sides deserve each other.’

  • Hello MP

    I think you need to remove the last photo before it goes viral. These children and their parents are too stupid to know they’re endangering themselves


  • Thanks for the photo reportage Moochin. Utterly depressing final picture, by the way.

    The scene in Newcastle yesterday morning as the local lodge and traditional pipe band did their parade up the town, before heading for the main event elsewhere, couldn’t have been more different or, indeed, attracted less interest from bystanders.

    Video here:

  • andnowwhat

    What age do you think these girls are Article?

    How old does one have to be to know that KAT etc. is sick?

  • Neil

    Thank God there’s no alcohol fuelled bigotry on St Paddys Day.

    Brilliant. Excuse the behaviour of the OO cause ‘look at themmuns on St Paddy’s so it is’. First of all, was the Protestant church against the canonization of St. Patrick at the time? Well um, no, the Protestant church didn’t exist until some 500 years later, so St. Patrick is a saint in all Christian churches here.

    Do all the bars in town close on St. Patrick’s day? Well, no they’re all packed with happy paying customers. What about the shops? All open. Ok, how many Republican bands march through Protestant areas? None.

    Hmm. Seeing a few differences here Gerry. Do Protestant as a rule avoid the St. Pat’s celebrations? Well, no not really. What is the major problem I wonder. Don’t like seeing tri colours I guess. Just as well Nationalism’s not quite as sensitive due to the thousands of butcher’s aprons adorning lamp posts across the town.

    How many people have died due to St. Patrick’s day related violence I wonder. How much of an exodus occurs over St. Pat’s, bringing the economy to a standstill? None. The two things are not the same.

    The idea that an anti catholic organisation should have such sway that they can shut down the country for a day or two so that they can have triumphalist marches through Nationalist areas in the 21st century is ridiculous.

  • Karen O’Rawe

    I have it on good authority that FAP means F*ck all Peelers 🙁

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Neil I’m not ‘excusing’ the ‘behaviour’ of the OO as the article is clearly about the hangers-on. Personally I couldn’t give a flying fuck if the OO never march again — my point was that there is a limitless amount of hatred on both sides.

    I took the family to the St Paddys day ‘celebrations’ in Belfast. The tricolours I could live with — the celtic-topped, fouled-mouthed, pissed up yahoos shouting such pleasantries as ‘fuck all orange bastards’ were hardly a proud example of Irishness. I felt threatened not only as a Unionist, but as an ordinary member of society with kids. Many were clearly out for a riot (which they got), thankfully after we’d left in disgust.

    As for the OO bringing the place to a standstill, that’s rightly coming to an end, with plans for all major Belfast stores to open next year.

    My point is that given the slightest excuse, large numbers on both sides like nothing better than getting pissed and wrecking the place. 17th March, 12th July whatever.

  • Neil

    Alright, I take your point, wouldn’t be my scene either as I have a couple a wee’uns myself. However I would counter that the twelfth of July to Nationalists doesn’t require men standing shouting kill all taigs, that is the undercurrent of the whole event. To be in the city is to feel constantly under threat.

    Also I’d point out the regular distancing people do with the order and anything negative. For example, the OO has nothing to do with the 11th night, or the OO has nothing to do with the hangers on. Bullshit, the hangers on wouldn’t be hanging on to anything if it weren’t for the order. The 11th night wouldn’t happen if it weren’t for the OO’s 12th July celebrations. Cause and effect, these things are all linked.

  • Greenflag


    I agree with ‘articles’ about removing the last photo on the grounds that the ‘idiot’ who is sporting the KAT is probably not a proponent of genocide when she’s sober and the FAP lass would be distraught to find a line of papishes outside her door ready and willing to provide the service she appears to be offering 😉

    Removing the second last photo might also improve the OO’s image . That chap is so ugly he makes our Biffo look like Hollywood material . I fear he may also be a local politician on the vote trail .

    I like the one with the six lads and the good ‘book ‘ . They may not read any other books but hey if you’ve read one you’ve read them all eh ;(?

    The juxtaposition of temperance with the beer swilling walker shows the various contrasts and contradictions inherent in the celebration .

    ‘ If these two are the future I fear we have a very long way to go before Orangefest becomes something that we can all be proud of.

    Too true but I would’nt get too depressed . These kids are not the future but the past . Whether Orangefest ever takes off as a tourist attraction is a moot point . I can’t imagine millions of American or German or French or British or irish Catholics wanting to pitch up at a ‘festival’ where the ‘locals ‘ express their intention of wanting to kill them or f**k them by writing on their faces or indeed ‘f**k their head of Church ?

    I can’t imagine any St Patrick’s day festivaler or parader being allowed to hold up a banner proclaiming ‘F**k the Queen ‘

  • Michael

    I think the last picture says it all.
    Where else would we get a ‘festival’ where children think its acceptable to walk around with slogans calling for the murder of other human beings?

    Sure its a lovely day out for the family.

  • Neil

    As for the OO bringing the place to a standstill, that’s rightly coming to an end, with plans for all major Belfast stores to open next year.

    I’d also say in response to this that these are the very early stages of the experiment where the 12th is normalised, and I would also say that is what the riots are about – to prevent the normalisation of the 12th. We’ll see how they get on, but the shops were open for 4 hours yesterday and many were (and still are) closed. At the minute the town’s dead, and it wouldn’t be were it not for the twelfth July celebrations.

  • duffo66

    They look about 15 to me. They are a disgrace, as are their parents. But I would say don’t remove the photograph. It’s important to see what is going on about the place.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Well we’re starting to agree Neil. Should also have mentioned that an ill-advised visit to an 11th night bonfire some years back was no more pleasant than the St Paddys incident, hence my agreement with my granda that one side is often as bad as the other.

    Someone earlier mentioned the parade in Newcastle — I was there yesterday — no hangers-on, no trouble, just a few bands marching down the street with a handful of locals having a look.

    Ideally both the 12th and St Paddys Day should be about celebrating dual aspects of local culture. I’ve never had any interest in the OO — to me they’re pointless at best, but I think most can see the attraction of a well turned out band and it’s obvious from the overwhelming majority of parades which pass off without incident that ‘normalisation’ is achieveable. As you rightly point out, some have an agenda very much against this and would likely brick the Rossnowllagh parade given half a chance.

    Every business that wants to be SHOULD be open over the 12th, but many still choose to take works holidays purely out of habit — I’ve phoned businesses in Limavady, Lisburn and Lurgan today — all closed and that’s on the 13th.
    I’d personally like to see everywhere open.

    As for the ‘hangers-on’ at both the OO and St Patricks parades, there needs to be a zero tolerance approach to drunkenness by both the organisers and the police. I’m not allowed to stagger pissed down Royal Ave on a Saturday afternoon shouting obscenities so why should it be any more acceptable if I do it alongside a parade?
    I’ve been to parades in London, Madrid and New York which were a genuine family day out with no sign of trouble — what makes the Irish so moronic that their festival days have to degenerate into drunken displays of hatred and violence?

  • andnowwhat

    Someone on te BBC board just said that the photo is clearly doctored.

    I don’t know how to read such a comment. Denial maybe?

  • can you give me a link…..

  • Neil

    Can’t disagree with much of that. The Northern Irish attitude towards alcohol leaves a lot to be desired.

  • andnowwhat
  • Brasco

    Good to see them only walking on one side of the road just as they do in Scotland…also why not mirror Scotland when it comes to these parades where the police arrest anyone drunk, abusive, anyone singing or shouting sectarian insults ands were the police decide who can or cannot walk through the parade to get to the other side of the road…

    not some jumped up wannabe.

  • thanks
    my comment awaits moderation……

  • andnowwhat

    Cheers Moochin.

    I was a photographer many moons ago. Even with digital, I can still tell a touch up when I see it.

    I also don’t like people playing silly buggers to deny evidence

  • Sean


    That would require them to arrest 75% of parade participants and tag alongs

  • Chris H

    great shots & story Mooch

  • Once again Mr Moochin shows his anti protestant feelings.

    How many parties in the park have you visited Mr Moochin were drink is in abundantance ? have you complained to the Council ?

    Gay pride parade were drink is in abundantance in Custom square ? have you complained to the council ?

    Your shameful pictures at the end were you insinuate what those letters mean – just show your anti protestant feelings.

    I for one will be praising the PSNI for removing drink on the streets which i must say has greatly reduced over the last number of years.

    Slugger is there any chance of having another photographer to balance things up a bit ???

    This site is becoming very anti protestant

    Didn’t see Mr Moochin taking picture of the republican rioters on the Albertbridge road – Ormeau Road – Ardoyne – I wonder why ??

  • Hello again Moochin

    Disappointed to see the photo still up. Undeniably a great photo, undeniably both shocking and depressing. Undeniably also it allows equally moronic individuals to identify and target these kids or put them on a pedestal.

    Reading the rest of the thread I guess i’m not in tune with the majority view but I’m not suggesting censorship just discretion on their behalf. This is one for your portfolio, or your public exhibitions or a competition but not the net

    Sometimes you just have to hide your talent.


  • Michael

    Damn straight jj
    We all know KAT stands for Keep Antrim Tidy

  • chewnicked

    Depressing last photo although it neatly blows the ‘Orangefest’ whaffle out of the water

  • andnowwhat

    JJ, first and foremost,the marches are meant to be we are told) a religious event. Is it thus apt to get pissed.

    Drinking in parks is meant to be illegal. This is not a couple of teenagers supping in the local park.

    As Chenwicked said, this is supposed to be an all inclusive event and yet we have people like these girls at it.

    RE. Moochin, are you saying that each individual photographer is meant to be at each event? That’ll be a few jobs gone in the Belfast Telegraph etc.

    The riots of last night are covered on quite a few places on Slugger. How many do you want?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Assuming the last photo is genuine, these kids are bigoted little morons who should be packed off for a week in the Falls with a tacky TV crew. As it stands though, they can be easily identified from this photo with potentially violent results.

  • ranger1640

    What’s wrong Moochin Photoman could you not make your way to the Crumlin Road to get some dead good photos. Photos of a baying republican mob trying to kill police officers.

    But taking a few photos of peaceful wee girls, bands, banners, Orange Men and people taking a few drinks, was far more challenging, than going to see how republicans do protests, or attempt to burn passengers on a train???

    Your a credit to photo journalism Moochin Photoman! No picture of yours ever spoke a 1000 words.

  • Michael

    Nice, if you can’t play the photochop card, play the anything that happens to these girls is on your head card.

    God forbid anyone should challenge the ‘great day out for the family’ myth by pointing out the reality.

  • Munsterview


    A fine sequence of photos; no doubt you have more, pity space do not allow, please consider putting the rest on line with a fuller account.

    I read your account with interest; given your C of I background you appear to be both keyed in enough not to be alienated and yet detached enough to be a good observer. Like the photos your account is also quality.

    I do not agree with removing the photos, ignoring this racism or denying that this racism exists will not make it go away. It is one thing to see these initials on the shirt of a street tug, little better is to be expected but it is quite another to see in proudly carried on the face of a lovely young teenage girls.

    What is even more disturbing, if the photos are untouched, is the fact that these young lassies were able to mingle in a crowd that see nothing wrong in their sectarian face painted slogan!

    I can honestly say that if at any of the many cultural festivals I attended in the North in National areas and I see something like this directed against Protestants, I would have gone straight to the committee and had that person removed. I would also have gone to school authorities, community workers, parish priest etc and made sure that the event was made as embarrassing and shameful as possible for the young person concerned and their associates.

    However in general it just would not arise in the first instance : that is one of the sad if unspoken aspects of the sectarian divide; on the Nationalist side dislike and hate of Protestants is directed towards their politics, on the other side the Gutter Orangism simply regard all Catholics as a sub species of humanity they can despise, denigrate and kill at will. There is far too much tolerance of this attitude in mainstream protestant cultures.

    As to the OO itself, it is all very well to have a Temperance Lodge, Banners, Historical myths etc, yet there is apparently no contradiction in values in allowing an alcohol abusing youth band to provide the music for their march or to allow excesses of alcohol to be consumed by young or under aged people in events under OO controol ! The Order may employ and present a re-package of 12 as ‘Orangefest’, but this is the sectarian dirty underbelly of it.

    Whatever of the sober, high sounding ideals of the OO, the 12th is also associated in the last quarter of a century, in popular culture in particular, with sectarianism, drunkenness, drugs, youth sexual activity and all of the immoderate things that they are supposed to oppose in society for the common good!

    Quite simply without this activity and licensed excess for the days around the 12 th, and the rest of the marching season, celebration the parades would just have a disconnect with pop culture leaving little other than a few boring old men marching into historical oblivion.

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Michael maybe you missed my ‘bigoted little morons’ remark. And I’m not the first to suggest this photo being removed for the kids (and they ARE kids albeit stupid ones) potential safety.

  • RepublicanStones

    Wouldn’t the same logic apply to those arsewipes doing the rioting? Surely you wouldn’t want their picture up lest Big Johnny from Sandy Row clocks them in Victoria Square some day.

  • Hi Andy you are correct any orange parade is a religious event – but those pictures were followers.

    So is Mr Moochin going to take pictures of drinkers at belsonic or food event at botanic gardens or the gay pride parade – Easy answer NO !!

    Just look at his past photos nearly everyone has an anti protestant tone to it – you have to ask yourself WHY ? and why is this site allowing this ??

    There needs to be a balance on this site – Not one picture of republican rioters WHY ??

    Slugger is there any chance of having another photographer to balance things up a bit ???

  • Mrazik

    No, the rioters were committing numerous crimes. The girls are simply being moronic.

  • Munsterview

    This is a very serious allegation to make, can you outline technical details of why you believe this photo is ‘doctored’ ‘sexed up ‘ or whatever?

    As a former photographer this should present little difficulties for you, otherwise you are just expressing a personal opinion. However it your allegation is unfounded then you have done Moochin a grave disservice and you owe him an abject apology!

  • billy


    Anyone openly displaying grossly offensive sectarian messages could easily be done under ‘incitement to hatred’.

    Having said that, I can’t recall the wonderful PSNI ever lifting anyone on the 12th for proudly wearing their KAT t-shirts etc.

  • Mick Fealty

    Can I just say something here?

    Mooch, like the rest of us, can only be in one place at a time. Gonzo was in the middle of that baying mob last year (putting himself in harm’s way in the process):

    The value of projects like this is that they show a side of reality that’s rarely got to by the MSM under its own steam. It cannot stop the craziness of the Ardoyne riots, but as we saw with the Galbally story (, good documentation of real world events can have powerful corollaries.

    I have it in mind to put together a piece on some of these matters, not least to do with the lack of openness and candour on both sides about what’s really happening inside their respective communities..

    I was struck by this in the Belfast Telegraph yesterday, which seems particularly apt in the context of this conversation:

    “…so long as ex-members of the IRA, INLA, UVF and UDA (to cover most bases) remain shadowy archetypes, and their real motivations remain veiled, they can be seen as heroes by their own side, villains by the other, but never as human beings from whom actual lessons can be drawn.”

    Read more:

    For me it’s the subversion of the stereotype in this photograph that’s prompted some of the more interesting aspects of this discussion…

    I cannot bear the stupid and endlessly reproductive way the Protestant community is spoken about and reported on in these islands. It mostly arises, so far as I can see, out of the widespread, damnably lazy and self-deluding view that it was themmuns what started it…

    But for me, the people in Ardoyne and the organisers of such Orange demonstrations need to spend less time worrying about what other people say and do about them than to attend to what’s actually going wrong in their own back yards and find a way to fix it…

    Everything else is ‘displacement’…

  • Michael

    You’ve jumped the gun there MV

  • Hopping the Border

    Ranger 1640

    “But taking a few photos of peaceful wee girls”

    Advocating genocide peaceful??

  • RepublicanStones

    Isn’t incitement to murder a crime as well?

  • Mrazik

    For all you know they didn’t have a clue what the acronyms stood for. Did you ask them Mooch?

  • Hopping the Border


    So it’s ok to expose children to vigilante justice where they have committed a crime

    But not ok to expose children where they openly advocate genocide…

  • Mrazik

    And you can tell that they know what the acronyms stand for from the “look of them”, I suppose?

  • Hopping the Border

    straws……. clutching…….

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    Neither is acceptable HTB — in either case I’d expect the bigoted girls or the braindead rioters to have their eyes blanked out. Why invite even more trouble?

  • Mrazik

    And I suppose you can tell that they know what the acronyms stand for simply by “the look of them”?

    As for incitement to murder, you don’t have to be Rumbole of the Bailey to work out that that’s a bit of a tenuous charge.

  • Hopping the Border


    So you think it more likely that these two teenage girls wrote a specific selection of letters on their faces to attend an orange parade without any knowledge of what the letters actually stood for?

  • Michael

    Sorry, I don’t buy the they might get beat up by the bloodthirsty hordes of taigs angle. If someone wanted to mark out orange supporters they simply have to turn the TV on at 11:30PM on the 12th night or spend 5 minutes on bebo or myspace looking at mugshots of the teenagers that happily display their tribal affiliations and locations online, and thats from both sides.

    I think it’s got more to do with putting the slipped mask back on quick, the biggest ‘cultural celebration’ in europe is in danger of being shown for what most catholic and protestant friends think it is. A bunch of drunken bigots pissing in the streets and getting away with the sort of incitement to hatred that would get them banged up if the target was jews or blacks instead of catholics.

  • Mrazik

    Not really. I’d no idea what it stood for (incluidng KAH, I might add) until informed on this very site and I’ve been around a lot longer that these girls (assuming they’re mid-teens), including during the years of the troubles.

    People on this site are inferring many things, that these two girls are advocating genocide; a serious charge I’ve no doubt you agree. It seems that all we have to do is quarter them and be done… Kangaroo burgers anyone?

  • Alan for Belfast got into a bit of potential bother last year when he photographed one of Edwin Poot’s children at a function. He did take the step of blanking out the kid’s face however and that would seem to have been the best thing for Moochin Photoman to do here- he’d still have been able to make the point he was obviously wanting to here without putting minors at risk.

    I presume also the subjects were informed that they would be appearing in a website where the vast majority of the commentators would consider them in a hostile light (with or without offensive message)?

    I presume also the subjects in question where informed

  • Hopping the Border

    Gerry I agree in principle with that.

    However, given the controversial nature of that particular photo – if the photographer was to start altering it (even with the best intentions) any claim of veracity would become suspect.

  • Slugger isn’t a public service broadcaster with a necessity to follow an impartial line in each case.

  • Mrazik

    I’ve know idea who they are, or how the words got there, or whether they know what they mean. Could some face painter have done it on the way to the demesne? Don’t ask me.

    I must be defective in some way as the consensus seems to be that they should go straight to the Hague. I hope they’re got good representation as it’s clearly an open and shut case.

  • Munsterview

    “…… I cannot bear the stupid and endlessly reproductive way the Protestant community is spoken about and reported on these islands. It mostly arises, so far as I can see, out of the widespread, damnably lazy and self-deluding view that it was themmuns what started it…”

    Mick; you know that this has been one of my bug bears for over four decades. I have little difficulty in getting Republicans to accept the part Protestants played in shaping the modern Ireland from the 98 rebellion on, all these talks are well received generally, there is however little appreciation outside of thinking Republicans as to how much this Protestant participation was motivated by a value system and what this system meant when mediated through political and cultural expression.

    While in these exchanges I have detailed certain aspects of this rich protestant culture, a protestant moderate contributer such as John EB was quick to point out that all the dozen or so Irish Protestant History and Culture heros I listed recently were seen by him as ‘ out of step’ with protestant majority views!

    I acknowledge that the approbation of these Protestant Culture Heros into the Nationalist / Catholic culture without proper appreciation of their values, has presented many of these figures in one dimensional terms but while this Nationalist Protestant Culture is unknown or ignored, what is left of the popular culture of Protestantism is packaged in Unionism or Loyalism is not very appealing to the rest of these Islands or the outside world.

    Again, as I often do, I remind Yeaths injunction to his own Protestant Culture that they ‘ were no petty people ‘ That they have been reduced to this is not the all the fault of Nationalist Ireland, equal or more of the blame for this situation can be laid at the door of the Northern Protestant Culture that thew out the baby with the political bath water when rejecting these people.

    With this segment of the Protestant culture unappreciated or thrown overboard, it is not particularly surprising that what is left is unbalanced and not particularly attractive to outside observers!

  • Michael

    “I’ve know idea who they are, or how the words got there, or whether they know what they mean. Could some face painter have done it on the way to the demesne? Don’t ask me.”

    Dude, where’s my hatred?

  • Hopping the Border

    Precisely Mrazik, but on the balance of probabilities can you not agree that in all likelihood, particularly given the age of the subjects, they were aware of what the acronyms stood for?

    As for your suggestion that it was done by a face painter at an OO event, well that would open an entirely different can of worms!

    KAT = Kill All Taigs = Kill All Catholics = Kill all members of a specific religion = Genocide (if it occurs)

    Ive no idea what the consensus is but to walk around with letters which signify support for such actions is despicable.

    Rambling about the ICC is deflection, nothing else.

    There are few cities in the world where such conduct is acceptable, Beirut, Tehran, perhaps some parts of the American Deep South. And Belfast of course.

  • Mrazik

    I agree that it’s despicable, but, as some others have alluded to, there is a real issue here of putting a photograph such as this on the blogosphere given the ensuing Kangaroo court and its implications.

    I regularly hear some of our university finest passing my window (in the Holylands) shouting Up the Ra etc. I don’t for the life of me think that they are/where in a Republican group or necessarily support such groups. I guess they were pissed and/or showing bravado in front of their mates. Things are always more complex than you might initially think.

    As for the Beirut, Tehran comment; I think you might need to get out more as you might be unpleasantly surprised what you find.

  • ranger1640

    I would rather have a few letters written on a few silly girls faces. Than the factual attempted mass murder by thousands of republicans all over Northern Ireland in the last few days.

    Yes and the Advocating of genocide written all over republican areas and on the back of gaa shirts, celtic and RoI football shirts, calling on republicans to kill all Huns, is charming. Isn’t it, hopping the border!

  • Hopping the Border

    Ranger 1640

    Your first “point” concerning which you would rather is simultaneously sensationalist and disappointing. Can you not see the two are clearly interlinked? If one community tolerates such sentiments towards the other on the faces of its teenage girls, then there is always going to be a reaction. The actions of the rioters were even more deplorable.I would rather have neither.

    As for your second point, please provide evidence of such sentiments on RoI & celtic football shirts and GAA tops. Disgraceful if it proves to be the case, as are all such manifestations, irrespective of creed. Otherwise, please refrain from sweeping generalisations.

  • Munsterview

    I too would be very interested to see examples such as those referred to in the second paragraph.

    The GAA for one, I would think, in the unlikely event of a player being narrow-minded or bigoted enough to do this, would simply tuft such a player out on his or her ear for bringing the organization into disrepute!

  • Hopping the Border

    There are (at least) two real issues here:
    (a) That teenage girls would express such sentiments towards their fellow subjects in 21st century and that their portion of the community didn’t seem to admonish them for it.
    (b) That such a photo is posted on the internet, which given the age of the subjects is of immediate concern on first viewing.

    In my opinion the first overrides the second since the picture is a pictorial representation of what may be the biggest challenge NI faces, the fact that even though they were not born during the troubles teenagers are still being indoctrinated in old prejudices, and at the very least, these early manifestations of prejudice are going unchecked by those in their own community who should know better.

    Your experiences are testimony to the fact that this problem exists in both portions of the community and likewise needs to be stamped out. I accept though that it is possible that these girls are acting a mirror image of what you have described in the Holylands, though I would have my reservations since it occurred while they were attending an event organised by an institution whose very ethos is anti RC.

    Concerning your geographical comment, I can’t quite place whether you want me to get out more in Belfast (where I live & do my best to!) or those cities and areas which are known to harbour a disgusting deep dislike of certain sections of humanity (which I intend to visit irrespective)

  • JH

    That last picture is brilliant and should absolutely not be censored. Would you have censored the Kim Phúc photograph?

    In fact I think it has the potential to become an extremely important photograph in this part of our history. It sums up perfectly how the focus on our fragile political settlement has caused us to look the other way whilst a new generation are educated in the bigotry of the last. Whether the two girls understood the meaning of the acronym is irrelevant, the message is the same. Disarming smiles without a hint of irony, it’s almost more sinister if they don’t.

    Bravo, Moochin. By the by, what are the rules for sharing of photos like this?

  • JoeJoe

    Wow! the girls with the Kill All Taigs Fu** All Papists in the last photo, are the same two in the earlier photo with the NI unionist flag and the Union Jack, yet none of the Orange marchers saw anything to worry about.

  • Munsterview


    It would seem that you are correct! Now it is indeed a ‘Houston we have a problem’ moment for the Orange Order.

    I have been involved in stewarding more meetings than I care to recall and as a steward one had to be on the look out not so much for our own people as others who came along with goodness knows what on their placards. These adverse pictures would of course be the ones that made the Home and International news.

    In the second picture referred to it is obvious that many stewards and hundreds of marchers must have passed within feet of these teenage girls and see their painted faced, in fact some of the lettering can be seen on the face of the union jack draped girl even on the photo.

    A parade do not just go from a to b, by itself, somebody was in charge of that parade, they should now be identified and asked to account as to why this was tolerated. This now is Orange Order Business and they are no more exempt from the actions of their supporters than a football club are for missbehaving actions of theirs in an away town.

    From my side of the fence this also is an indicator of the real attitudes of some of the contributers : how many postings will come right out and in the first instance give an unqualified apology for it ?

    It should be unnecessary to point out what would happen or what view the media would take young female teenagers of a similar age took part in a National Front demonstration with a ‘Kill all Pakis’ lettered on their face. Who in the neighboring Island would attempt to defend such a racist attitude on the grounds that they did not really appreciate what they were doing etc. Would the National Front be left off the hook if they claimed that while they held the demonstration they were not responsible for who took part or for what banners they carried?

    So who is going to take responsibility for the Orange Order, to apologizes, no ifs buts or ands? It was their show yesterday and in the aftermath to day it is also their show….. or will it be no show !

  • Itsnevergonachange

    Its just something about this time of year that brings out the bigots.People you would talk too all year round then they just turn at this time of year.(the silly season) There is a row going on in my daughters football team as a mother and daughter talked to each other on facebook about killing all taigs.Its a mixed team and the parent all got on well and had nights out togather.But its the 12th of July so anything goes as long as its against taigs.

  • Mick Fealty

    Its worse than that. Everyone is at it. Well, not everyone. But the needle on the bigot reference scale hits red when we turn into July. And just read the headlines on Nuzhound yesterday.

    But just exactly who has gone nuts this marching season? It wasn’t the Orange or their bands.

  • Eddie Robinson


    Perhaps now someone will address the psychological corruption bestowed upon our children in a positive and meaningful way.

    The ‘Us versus Them’ attitudes presented in some of these comments are adding fuel to the fire……
    All the more tragic considering they were written by adults!

    These unenlightened girls are not the creators of sectarianism……they too are victims of it…..and that is what the photo clearly screams out!

    Should we sweep it under the carpet, put on our rose tinted glasses and pretend all is well?
    Or should we highlight the dysfunctional behaviour of our society, generate change and move forward in harmony?

    Choose wisely and wisdom comes.


    Michael, I have never EVER used this phrase before, but this deserves it: LOL!

  • I’ve let this thread go and it now seems only fair for me to answer some of the points raised.
    Firstly the photographs are un-doctored and un-altered aside from a little tweeking of levels in Photoshop. The 10 or so photographs i took will attest to that and to suggest otherwise opens up a whole vista of legalities for anyone who wants that option.
    When i asked if i could take their photograph the girls asked me if it was for the ‘telly’ i replied no just for the record (at the time i didn’t know if i would publish any of the photographs so it was an honest answer) I didn’t ask them if they knew what the letters stood for but i assume that they and the 4 other people with their face painted the same knew fine rightly what it stood for.
    The biggest issue seems to be based around the publishing of the images on the net. I really did think long and hard about whether or not i should publish. Legally i don’t have anything to worry about……it is the moral question that is more ambiguous. I took the decision to publish this series of photographs to show what is happening. The photographs are a record of what i saw at the field. Of course there will be those that don’t want anyone to show the reality but like it lump it these girls (and quite a few others by the end of the day perhaps) were walking around in a public place with this sectarian scrawl on their faces for all to see. So i took their photograph, plain and simple.
    I feel that i was right to publish and stand by that decision.
    It should also be noted that upon review of my other photographs, the photograph of the girls watching the parade those girls are not the same two that appeared in the last one.
    Apparently my anti protestant postings (and me a prod too) are too much for some who don’t like the truth (belfastjj). Actually such photographs are about me exploring my own identity and the photographs are taken for me and no one else, that i choose to share them here is to open debate (not whataboutery).
    As i have stated in previous posts as regards these same 3 little hate filled letters it is my personal opinion that this sectarian tit for tat, be it as a scrawl on a lampost or on a wall or a face, serve no purpose other than to ingrain old enmities and hatreds and have no place in a forward thinking society.

  • Neil

    But just exactly who has gone nuts this marching season? It wasn’t the Orange or their bands.

    No you’re quite right. They aren’t involved in the 11th night so that’s nothing to do with them either. And they aren’t involved with the hanger’s on so that’s nothing to do with them either. In fact, nothing negative has ever happened that directly involved the order, it’s always the hangers on, or the 11th night bonfires or them fenians.

    This year it is Republican violence making the news, I’m still making my mind up about the motivations and motivators involved, but cause and effect is also at play. Taking the last 10 years into account, nearly every year there’s trouble of some description, and for what? So the order can antagonise Nationalists. At the end of the day that’s what this is about, those tiny number of contentious parades that are forced through areas that don’t want them.

    But then the order has no reason to look at those parades, the order has never done anything wrong have they? It’s always the hangers on who cause the problems, and those inherently violent taigs the young lady mentions on her war paint.

    Imagine again if you will, a couple of young white ladies down in the Bronx with kill all ni*gers painted on her face. Imagine they come along every year, sometimes carrying banners commemorating killers of black people, or holding up their fingers to the residents, one finger for each person killed in some given atrocity. And a riot breaks out. So the line is those black people are just violent animals, can’t even walk on the sidewalk.

    There is cause and effect: the cause is the 12th July and in particular the contentious parades. The effect you can discuss til the cows come home.

    With regard to the young lady in the picture, she has no right to expect as a matter of course that what she paints on her face and wears in public will not be snapped and displayed by someone. You should generally expect your actions to be capable of biting you on the ass, which is why you should keep a wee eye on your actions in the first place.

  • I’ve added a photo to the Bushmills collection. It contains a poster of King William and underneath an alcohol no-drinking sign. These signs were ignored by the alcohol pops and popettes as were the £50 litter fines. I didn’t spot any Moyle District Council snatch squads 🙂

  • oneill

    When i asked if i could take their photograph the girls asked me if it was for the ‘telly’ i replied no just for the record (at the time i didn’t know if i would publish any of the photographs so it was an honest answer) I didn’t ask them if they knew what the letters stood for but i assume that they and the 4 other people with their face painted the same knew fine rightly what it stood for.


    If you *had known* you were going to publish them up in the most widely-read political blog would you have told them?

    Others have mentioned the possibility of the two idiots now being targetted by other idiots because of the publishing them up here, you don’t mention in your justification whether that was a factor you took into consideration- do you have any personal “moral” guidelines in such cases?

  • I can’t but help feel that the question of the photographs possibly endangering the girls is based more on shooting the messenger rather than any real fear for the girls safety.
    My intent was and remains to record what i see if i choose to share the resulting images….. that is my choice. I have done nothing wrong legally, i was in a public place (publically owned btw) and had a direct conversation with them. They knew i was taking their photograph.
    As regards the morality, i think that the photograph needed to be seen and it shouldn’t be censored.It happened and i recorded it.
    Whilst not a pulitzer piece of writing, I feel i produced a balanced and subjective blog. I certainly could have stayed longer but as i said i was becoming uncomfortable with the number of drunken youths. The kind that will jump in front of you and the camera, demand you take a photograph of him and his drunken mates all as they shout YEOOOOO with clenched fists.
    When you deal with drunk people, often speed is the key otherwise you often end up with a memory card full of useless binarys.

  • oneill

    I can’t but help feel that the question of the photographs possibly endangering the girls is based more on shooting the messenger rather than any real fear for the girls safety

    And I can’t help feeling your knee-jerk at a perfectly valid question.

    Check my previous comment, you are obviously entitled to make the point/judgement that you have set out to make, but that’s not the question I was asking which, for clarity, was:

    Whether or not it has crossed your mind there is the possibility you could have put them at risk and if so, how then do you make the moral judgement whether or not to publish.

    If you are happy in your conscience that you haven’t then, fine, that’s that and, as you’ve been careful to stress twice now, you haven’t ” done nothing wrong legally”.

    Whilst not a pulitzer piece of writing, I feel i produced a balanced and subjective blog.

    Did you really mean to say “subjective” there?
    If so, I commend your honesty.

  • RepublicanStones

    O’Neill would you argues the same point with regard to youngsters having their pictures published who were engaged in say last nights rioting? Or is only lovely young protestant girls advocating the murder of their neighbours who must be sheltered?

  • Of course it crossed my mind…..I think the point is well made as regards what their profile photographs would show on social networking sites.

    legalities were mentioned merely because some were mentioning that the photos were doctored.

    That is a freudian slip….i do think it is an objective
    piece of writing (but then i’m biased maybe)

  • Daniel Jewesbury

    Good lord Mooch, have you ever been accused of being a self-hating Prod before? Of course the worst anti-Prods are Prods in denial (like Jews who criticise Israel are ‘anti-Semites’). How could you go and faithfully document what you saw on the 12th? And of course the idea that the OO actually tolerate or turn a blind eye to or – gasp – encourage displays of sectarianism is so outrageous that you MUST have doctored the photies. Stands to reason.

    But then I’m a self-hating socialist so what would I know?

    (PS Well done mate)

  • Eddie Robinson

    Are the BBC or UTV staff also to be condemned and lambasted for their truthful journalism? Irish News or News Letter perhaps?

    Absolutely not…..Only an idiot could think otherwise!

    If public media outlets (and individuals for that matter) pander to pathetic and narrow minded narcissism to encourage censorship, then our evolving society will never know what is occurring.

    If people don’t know then they can’t care….. If people don’t care they don’t object…..If people don’t object, dysfunctional behaviour becomes socially acceptable….and we end up with abnormal and spiritually retarded graffiti written on the faces of children….

    Is this too complex or confusing for some to comprehend?

    Here is the real question:

    Why did the many Religious, peaceful and Law abiding adults present allow children to do this?

    Answer this question truthfully and an embryo of positive change can and will occur.

    I have no doubt that Mooch thought long and hard before publishing a genuine and honest image.
    I have no doubt that he thought about the potential negative impact on the children……and himself.
    I have no doubt that it took courage and integrity to publish the photo.
    I have no doubt his choice was the correct one!

    Will the narrow minded amongst us use it as a catalyst for change?

    That I doubt very much indeed…………….

  • “O’Neill would you argues the same point with regard to youngsters having their pictures published who were engaged in say last nights rioting?”

    If they have committed a crime and needed to be identified for prosecuting purposes, then yes. If it was a group of 13-14 year old idiots with KAH scrawled on their face, then I probably wouldn’t- at the vey least inform, I’d inform them that their picture may be appearing.

    “Or is only lovely young protestant girls advocating the murder of their neighbours who must be sheltered?”

    Yes, of course. FFS.

    Curously enough, I had you down originally as one of the very few nationalists on here (along with Kensei and Sammy Mc) I would be able to have a decent discourse on here. But with that kind of reflexive, unthinking remark, I think I’ll revise my opinion and log you firmly in the overflowing “Sectarian Fuckwits” bucket.

    Don’t bother with the red card Mick, I’m off, the echo-zone here is too hard on the oul ears.

  • RepublicanStones

    So incitement to murder and religious hatred isn’t a crime? I thought you were more concerned with the welfare of those in the photo than that which they are promoting or committing. So you seem to think it ok to let Big Johnny from Sandy Row see a picture of some 15 yr olds from Ardoyne, but shelter the 15 yr olds at the Orange March from Big Seamus from the Falls.

  • RepublicanStones

    Let me put it to you this way O’Neill, would you be happy with Mooch’s picture remaining if it were proved those girls were over 16 or over 18, similarly, what about the youngsters rioting, or do you think all their pictures should be put up?

    And I’ll ignore the ‘Sectarian Fuckwit’ bit of your post and just put it down to you being in an office during such glorious weather today (well it is here in Dublin).

  • Here’s a link to a slideshow on flickr that has a few other photographs in it…….the text remains the same, the only things i can think that i didn’t mention was that i didn’t see a single PSNI officer in the park and that i saw 3 tables set up for facepainting.

  • Itsnevergonachange

    As my name says……its always going to be the same,and for who is to blame?Well i say the parents on both sides,if those girls were one of my children the wouldnt cross the door until they were 18,also the ones rioting!!!! If they were mine they wouldnt cross the door either,but the difference is my kids wouldnt do anything like that as they arent brought up that way,they have as many protestant friends as they have catholic.I also blame the OO,dont get me wrong im not against protestant celebrating their culture.They have a right too marchjust as anyone has.But can anyone truthfully answer this?WHY have they to walk back up the road?There was no trouble walking down and no decent catholic would have any problem with them walking down to their celebrations,have they not had a good day without it being spolit trying to prove they can walk were they want?

  • King Kai

    Wonder what your thoughts are on the 8 year old rioting at ardoyne since your looking down your nose

  • vanhelsing

    I thought [and wanted to believe that myself] but from what I know of MP he’s straight up. Had anyone else posted these I would have assumed they were touch ups – but I trust MP – although I am dismayed by the photo’s.

  • King Kai

    Mooch has clearly went to the field to get offended and with his own agenda, if thats the worst photo’s he could get im sure he was disappointed. No shots of Orangemen with two heads or horns but he has to perv over a couple of KIDS with no sence. What a scoup.

  • Munsterview

    this did not start today or yesterday, my partner has Northern connections, one of her late aunts lived West of the Bann in a mixed rural area, they were Catholic, the next farm was Protestant.

    I was at her removal and funeral in the mid eighties, all the neighbors were there irrespective of background. However afterwards we were informed that while their Protestant neighbor exchanged work days with each other and they shared farm machines , etc and were the best to help with problems, for the month of July these same next farm neighbors would not talk, socialize or even acknowledge a greeting!

    This situation situation had gone on for generations; the Aunts attitude was one of bemused toleration and a weary ” God help them, you can only pray for them ”

    I send some of the parade photos to the US last night to a Grandmother, third generation Irish American. Her own grandfather had left in the first decade of the 20th, century, his strongest memories and those he past on to his children and grandchildren of his Northern Youth was of the 12th, disturbances and anti-Catholic/Nationalist abuse.

    I appreciate that the 36,000 members of the OO are not the whole Protestant tradition on this Island. However it is the projected face of Irish Protestantism to the world, the one that has Southern Protestants especially C of I cringing in embarrassment and shame of what is being done in their name.

    Louth, despite being robbed in Sunday’s GAA match, conceded with dignity for the good of the game and have accepted the referees decision, which even the latter now admits was wrong!
    They put the common good first and irrespective of who lifts the Sam Maguire ( a protestant incidently) Cup this year, Louth are the winners of the Linster finals and the 2010 season.

    Since only a few percentage of the parades cause problems, could these not be rerouted in part for the greater good to remove problems ?

    This should not happen again next year : already the proposed parades legalization brought about by the OO antics and tactics will lead to a significant detraction of Civil Rights and liberties of assembly if it goes through. So much for the OO claim to protect such liberties !

    Catholics /Nationalists / Republicans had to tolerate far less than their due in the Good Friday agreement for the sake of peace and progress. The OO keep muttering about ‘Papist controol’ in Southern Politics, yet the OO continues to exert power, have exemptions and advocate special case treatment in a way the Roman Catholic Church can only dream of.

    For the OO it seems, it is still a case of ‘all or nothing’ irrespective of what chaos they are leaving in their wake !

  • King Kai

    The marchers are from ardoyne, do you want them airlifted home. That is a main road in and out of belfast. I dont get how someone will set their alarm on a public holiday to get up to get offended. There’s not a sinner around those shops all day till the parade is due back. Jerry Springer couldnt solve that one never mind the Orange Order. The thugs drafted in to riot are not interested in resolving the parades issue and never will.

  • Apparently my anti protestant postings (and me a prod too) are too much for some who don’t like the truth (belfastjj). Actually such photographs are about me exploring my own identity and the photographs are taken for me and no one else, that i choose to share them here is to open debate (not whataboutery).

    Haha – truth yeah yeah

    “I didn’t ask them if they knew what the letters stood for”

    So you made up the meaning of the letters or just presumed the meaning ?

    If you don’t know your identity by now why don’t you explore your irish side and balance you photos up ?

    So i’ll ask you again

    So is Mr Moochin going to take pictures of drinkers at belsonic or food event at botanic gardens or the gay pride parade – Easy answer NO !!

  • Munsterview

    Now that Moochin has clarified matters, some unfinished business andnowwhat ?

    Well Michael any gun left to jump on this matter?

    The Union Jack wrapped girl also clearly has writing on her face. My question posed above again repeated here; if this was seen by dozens of stewards and hundreds of marchers, why did not one of the OO object on the day. Could it be that things like KAT and FAP are tolerated expressions of this culture.

    What of the Girls themselves; surely by now they must be aware that they are in the eye of the storm ? Any possibility of they coming on slugger to say that it was a mistake and apologize for it?

    Or could it be, as is more likely, that in their community such things are regarded as acceptable and that they are now Pop Culture heros for their display?

    Ironically given the fuss kicked up a short time ago about Moochins photo being nondescript, on this occasion the picture really was worth a thousand words, congratulations to him for it. It will also be interesting to see who apologies to Moochin now and can rise above tribalism at its worst!

    andnowwhat 13 July 2010 at 4:54 pm
    Cheers Moochin. I was a photographer many moons ago. Even with digital, I can still tell a touch up when I see it.
    I also don’t like people playing silly buggers to deny evidence

    Munsterview 13 July 2010 at 6:27 pm
    This is a very serious allegation to make, can you outline technical details of why you believe this photo is ‘doctored’ ‘sexed up ‘ or whatever?

    As a former photographer this should present little difficulties for you, otherwise you are just expressing a personal opinion. However it your allegation is unfounded then you have done Moochin a grave disservice and you owe him an abject apology!

    Michael 13 July 2010 at 7:03 pm
    You’ve jumped the gun there MV

  • Presumably you’ll be in the camp that thinks KAT means Keep Antrim Tidy then?
    As for the FAP? Well all three choices arn’t exactly shining examples of citizenship are they?

    It’s spurrious to ask if i’m going to photograph licensed events such as Belsonic or Gay pride.
    But seeing as you ask heres a shot from Pride two years ago…..

  • Munsterview

    Soo….. like I suggested, one set of rules for the OO events and hangers on and one for the rest of the people on this Island ? Nice one !

  • Michael

    Only that you’ve jumped the gun again Munsterview 😉

  • RepublicanStones

    So you made up the meaning of the letters or just presumed the meaning ?

    I doubt very much if mooch coined that phrase belfastjj. Perhaps you could tell us what you think they mean?

  • RepublicanStones

    And just add belfastjj, there are 7 pics shown on this thread, only one of which reflects badly (the carryout one would be present at any event regardless of the religion/culture involved), that being the two girls one. The rest of the pics showing the colourful event it was. And whilst I have no love for the OO, the first pic of Mooch’s with the head of the parade is indeed an impressive sight, all in step, flags at equal height – the moron in the Spain jersey only makes them look better. I think you’re well wide off the mark belfastjj with regard to your aspersions on Mooch’s intentions.

  • Munsterview

    Two actually……. the Union Jack draped girl also has what appears to be a lettered cheek. If this was not some teenage bravado they marked on themselves of each other, then was it possibly one of the face painting options available at one of the three tables mentioned ?

    If so these are not just isolated incidents regarding the three young teenagers identified, it is part of a wider culture that was at least tolerated if not accepted on the day.

    The fact that there are some on this site that would attempt to divert from the photo, explain it away or simply excuse it, is indicative that these attitudes are not just confined to street culture or a couple of naive lassies on a day out!

  • qwerty12345

    Just a note to say thanks for the photos, they need to be seen.

    On first viewing of the pic of the two girls I wasnt really surprised but just thought “Silly wee girls” but the more you look at it and think about it the more shocking it is.

    Good for you for posting it.