Shared future: The ‘popular’ option (almost) no one votes for…
Fascinating response from Alex Kane to Norman Hamilton’s presentation at our post election breakfast. It’s feisty and combative and he takes on the idea that government should take on the task of creating a shared future that remains deeply unpopular at the polls:
What Mr Hamilton, along with a veritable army of heavily funded, self-justifying community workers and peace activists have failed to notice, is that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland have already agreed upon a ‘community relations agenda and a community relations strategy’. They are, in fact, happy enough to live apart and remain apart. No one is forcing them to do so: they choose to do so. Better still, in 1998 and subsequently they have endorsed political structures and institutions which are built upon a power-sharing system which props up their desire to be treated as separate communities.
For those who do want to ‘integrate’, there is nothing stopping them either. There are no laws to prevent Protestants and Roman Catholics, or unionists and republicans from co-habiting politically, socially or in the workplace. Indeed, Northern Ireland is drowning in legislation which protects all of us from sectarian discrimination.
He continues:
Sinn Fein and the SDLP love the idea of a shared future, but only because they define it and promote it in rigidly political, constitutional terms. For them – and I have said this over and over again – a shared future involves treating unionism and republicanism as equals. And in so doing you remove all of the influence and importance that should be associated with majority opinion. For let’s not forget the fact that the pro-Union opinion is still the opinion of the majority here and I for one will never endorse a shared future doctrine which seeks to dilute or diminish that opinion.
My fear about those who do promote the shared future doctrine is that they are, in reality, promoting a very dangerous concept of political and social engineering. They want to turn Northern Ireland into something that most of the people of Northern Ireland don’t want it to be. The legislative methods and machinery they wish to deploy are every bit as invidious as the laws – in some cases enacted for ‘natural and Christian’ reasons – which underpinned both apartheid in South Africa and ‘Jim Crow’ in the US.
Apollo, I am a Unionist, don’t tar us all with the same brush.
Ann, you still haven’t answered my question :
Can you give any examples where immigrants have adversely effected you, directly?
Perhaps you could also think how they have benefited you (doctors, nurses, cleaners?)
In those schools that the kids can’t get into, how many immigrant kids have got places?
It’s the same old story, when things aren’t going well, it’s someone else’s fault (immigrants, gypsies, jews, fenians etc)
I would not dream of doing that. I would not like anyone reading my posts to infer that either. I believe in judging everyone by their actions.
I always thought there was a very strong rationale behind legally permitting Polish migration to Britain leaving aside the EU membership thing. To me there is a rationale stemming from WWII partnerships and Britain initially going to war over Poland, yet failing to win the right terms for that country when the war was finished.
The British owed the Poles especially so after them spilling blood and winning the war alongside the Allies. Because as we know the USSR lingered on in Polish territory for around 45 years. The justification said the USSR came from a secret if not criminal protocol signed initially with Nazi Germany!
But Ann’s concern over immigration does stand to a certain degree in that in terms of the Romanians and Bulgarians wanting to live here, they do so conditionally. If the UK borders agency and Home Office make entry requirements very conditional and heavily qualified, the locals pick up on this and see their presence here as tenuous and – well – conditional, less deserving perhaps? This can be amplified into racism as an end result, the starting point is the failure to see any proper reason why they now live in their communities. Usually the ones with population decline and shrinking public services.
Strong leadership must be given on immigration, a debate should happen in advance (bit late for that now) and hopefully tolerance can win out from a strong government message. There is proper reasoning for immigration based on EU membership, which is why the governments accept it – but a debate still needs to be had and sustained at a very local, constituent, level.
As we know if we care to look our local government is well capable of wasting hundreds of millions of pounds of government money ………
yes saville for a start
See thats where you are wrong. Its not just my family I am concerned about its all of ours. typical answer not to see the whole picture. This is not a war on immigrants Its an attempt to keep our country from coming under the same fate as the british mainland. What is it about that which is so wrong and what is it about that the readers here do not understand. They are so far left with their heads in the sand they cannot see what the futher holds for us.
Oh and there is that word again xenophobic and I dont have a horse. Why is it when someone comes on and states an opinion that you dont like the word racist or xenophobic is chanted. Dont you know any other words.
Please define racists for me.
apollo no one mentioned colour but you and as for the muslims I dont see them handing over the terrorists. You may call it intolerance I call it freedom. My point about the war was purely because you made the statement that England might get fed up with us and do something about our stay in the Union and the money we are entitled to. Thats the point i was making. England is not in charge.
I think to say islam has a lunatic fringe is a bit of an understatement if you research how many have been killed who are not muslim in the last 2 months alone with suicide bombings etc. But i did not necessarily come on here to talk about Islam.
I am confident in my culture and my religion but like the mainland which at this point in time is being told on many different ocassions to refrain from preaching Christainity in certain places in case someone gets offended. Or the people who have been advised my council not to erected Christmas trees etc in case someone gets offended is beynd the pail especially since Britian and Ireland are both Christian countries.
As far as our childrend education and culture being eroded. Well there are many children at this point in time who have been turned away from the schools of their choice because priority is given over to ethnic minorities. But I can hear it coming next. “thats all lies” No matter how many people I speak to who have told me of this problem, no matter how many people I have spoken to who have told me they have been refused employment while someone from an ethnic minority is given a position. While those who do not want to believe this is happening will always come back with the same old answer and guess what that is. “your a racist, xenophobic or just a liar” Until such times as you or others you know have been faced with this situation then those on here who are blind will always deny its existence. My own cousin was refused admittance for his son at the local primary school. He was told first priority is given over to those on benefits and second priority is given over to those who can not speak English. Now this is discrimination of our people, whether you like it or not or choose to accept it or not. It is a fact of what is happening in our country.
A couple of weeks ago a woman was in a local paper, same old same old, could not get her child into local school in east belfast.
But while the attitude remains as is on this site obviously thoses involved have not yet been effected, but it is only a matter of time.
I will stand back now and wait for more of the same “lies, xenophobic, racist”
Notice none of these people who now flood our land, were not so fast to make it here while we were being blown up and murdered. Oh no. But now while we have relative peace and possible prosperity of course if those that govern can get their finger out and stop lining their own pockets, all of a sudder here they are. Wonder why that is. I shall tell you. The mainland is bursting at the seams and the people are living on top of one another. Do the maths and some research. So what happens. I know, theres wee country across the water, called Northern Ireland, is nice and for the most part peaceful and relatively underpopulated lets go there. Theres plenty of pickings. I am dealing with the public every day of the week and I am constantly seeing and hearing the stories and I have no reason to believe they are not true. I even am even in contact with some of those from abroad, who take great pleasure in informing me how they love their free life in this country. Its a scream. Whats not so funny is we are the one who are paying for it. And the truth is we cannot afford it. Its really simple do the maths.
Shall i stand back now and wait for the next unslaught “liar, xenophobic, racist.
I am simply telling the truth and those who do not like what they hear will of course come back with insults because its the only answer they know.
Oh and by the way I am not looking for a welcome in Boston or anywhere else for that matter. I am quite happy living in my own country and paying my way.
Sorry Neil but you talk shite. I did not mention Irish terrorist. I did not mention Catholic nor did I mention colour. The TUV has nothing to do with this debate i am speaking for myself and the people I am helping no polictical party is involved. But that is just typical of the reaction I have had from those who are so filled with hatred of their own countrymen they cannot see the wood for the trees.
Mick there was no need what so ever for your heavy handed post to me threatening to give me a yellow card.thats just singling me out.I will not post on slugger again and be treated like a dog its blatant discrimination its not free speech its stifling freedom of expression picking me out mick to make an example of me is disgraceful mick.
Here we go again. I havent answered your question because I have been out working trying to earn a living like many of us so I can pay my taxes to keep those freeloaders in this country in the style they have become accustomed to. Yes I can mention some schools. But firstly let me make it clear, this is not about me personally. Its about all of us. There are children being turned away from schools in east belfast. My own cousing was affected last year when he tried to get his child into the local school, he was told first priority was given over to those on benefits and 2nd priority was given over to those who couldnt speak English, now whether you like it or not this is discrimination of our people in our own country. If you want to check it our for yourself . You can alwasy send in an FOI but this information is hard to get but of course you could always go and look, see with you own eyes. Ill give you an example there is a primiary school in Dundonald I know of people who have been turned away. Our local people. But if you stand outside at getting out time you will see how many foeign children leave the premises.
Of course the last remark is just typical of anyone who refuses to check out the facts for themselves and see what is really going on. You surprise me.
While you mention the Doctors Nurses cleaners etc. Well with 56,000 people unemployed in this country I think maybe we could fill those places ourselves. But then maybe that being ridiculous or racist, xenophobic or maybe im just a liar. That seems to be the norm on here when something is said that others dont want to accept.
Oh and Apollo dccoop is quite correct please do not tar us all with the one brush. Some of us care what happens to our people while some of us are just init for the glory and prestige
“Or the people who have been advised my council not to erected Christmas trees etc in case someone gets offended is beynd the pail especially since Britian and Ireland are both Christian countries.”
Really? I was unaware anyone had advised Castlereagh council not to erect Christmas trees. When did this happen?
The expression is “Beyond the Pale”. The Pale was the part of Ireland around Dublin that was safe for the English immigrants who had invaded another country. Beyond the Pale was where the natives lived. A funny expression I know but you can see how relevant it is now.
You might also want to look up
“To Hell or Connaught”
Hi Down South, firstly many of our purchases may come from the third world that is not the point i am making. Anything i purchase i pay for with money i earn, I do not take myself off to a foreign land and expect to be provided for at the cost to the native of that land/taxpayer. I do not go abroad and expect to be put first in line in front of the natives of the country i am in. But its a different story here. this is not a war declared on immigrants its a struggle to try to keep our country afloat. At the end of the day we cannot afford this drain on our ecomony whether you agree or not. Its a fact its not my doing I didnt make the country’s finances a mess. We are facing billions of cuts and my point is the cuts should be made first where money is being wasted on those who are not native to our country. Millions could be save if we started looking after our own and stop pandering to the whims of those who make their way here in search of a free life. Now im gonna stand back and wait for the usual. “racists, xenophobic. liar” As I have learned on here today that seems to be the norm.
Hi Neil here we go again. sectarianism raises its ugly head once again. I did not use that word you did. And of course I respect the wishes of the electorate I have no problem with their choices. I never said I did. I am not here to speak for the TUV which i have made clear on several occasions I am here to speak for myself and those people who have asked me for their help. Simple as that.
Now once again ill stand back and wait for the “racist, xenophobic, liar and ill add one on for you expecially “bigot.
Hope this makes my position clear.
Yes indeed if more children in Northern Ireland were to experience this sort of education. You dont seem to get the point, at the rate we are going there wont be any places for our children to get any education. Watch this space.
Once again ill stand back and wait for it, yes youve guessed it “racist, xenophobic, liar.
We will see how your argument holds up in ten years times if we are still around and still have a country we can recognise
The problem Ann, is that there is a nugget of truth in what you say. Schools do have bureaucratic targets to meet. Did your cousin speak to their MLA or MP? Did they end up with a school they were happy with?
Your country may not have been infected with the intolerance that you witness here but look where that has brougt the mainland. Have you taken a look at it lately. Do you even know whats going on over there. I am checking it out regularly and I can tell you its not a pretty picture. I do not want to see that sort of destruction escalate in our country. That is the point I am trying to make. But it appears complacency is the word of the day. So lets all sit back and take it easy, do nothing, say nothing and in no way stand up for our rights and then wake up tomorrow and not recognise our country.
and if someone comes along and objects, like i have, but only to try to explain what is on the way, then sure lets shoot the usual at them “racist, xenophobic, liar, bigot. whatever. Is that what you want and the others on here who I might add seem to want.
Thats fine but as far as im concerned its not what i want and I will try to keep us afloat.
Of course it appears to me this is exactly what is wanted on here, because anything that can destabalise our country will suit those whose hatred of our country is frightening.
Willis that was a typo it meant to read by council and I am taking about the British mainland. There is only so many comments I can answer and I can only type at 80 words a minute not 180.
Thank you
lol ok Willis Ill look it up if i ever get the chance to get off thismachine.
Good luck
Reading Ann’s posts is like trawling through the BNP forums were apparently there’s an islamic plot afoot to destroy our culture, a viewpoint which then gets confused with Eastern European immigration and usually ends up with a rant about ‘they’ are taking our jobs/schools/houses/culture.
Ann’s complaints all hearsay, nothing direct and I doubt Ann really knows anyone outside her own community. In England the BNP generally flourish in areas without immigration but a fear of it. The total rout of the BNP in Barking in an ethnically diverse area is more telling. It’s hard to hate people you know.
So why is Alex Kane so frightened on an Ulster that becomes of one? Apart from finding himself out of a job, what’s the problem in the barriers coming down? With hatred of the unknown dying away? This idea that both communities in Ulster operate completely separately is not my experience. Can I suggest that a lot of people don’t recognise the divided society he presents or Ann wishes to perpetuate?
Well Willis imagine that, Someone has acknowledged that its not all lies. Welcome to my world. No he didnt and no he didnt. No joy on that one im afraid. But he is not the only one I can assure you fo that. It really is happening and many dont believe it and those who know about dont know where to go or what to do. The fact school has bureaucratic targets to meet does not excuse they discrimation. If the shoe where on the other foot then the media coverage woult be massive but as its not then its a cover up. There are more than just schools involved. There are nursing homes aswell and many more but ill touch on the nursing home bit. One in particular and ill not mention any names as im checking it out. out of 50 staff 35 are from abroad and one does not even speak english. Would someone please explain how someone who cannot speak englist can possible see to the needs of our elderly people who might need something but cannot communicate. This is unnacceptable. But to those on here, its all probaly lies etc. I cant believe our own people could react in such a way against their own people.
First of all I dont know Alex Kane and I doubt he knows me. So dont mention me in the same sentence. Your comments are somewhat childish and it would appear you do not know what your talking about nor have you done any research to be able to stand up to you claims. Furthermore you assertion that all which is going on is mere heresay just shows how much you dont know.
As for making assumption about me, a person you dont know. grow up act your age and at least pretend you have an idea what is going on.
Willis please excuse all the typos but i have now been typing for hours and there are only so many i can answer. Think ill go and check out eastenders. As by the looks of things I am wasting my time trying to talk to those who are so closed minded they have no idea.
Thank you
Hi Mick its been a long day and I think ive out stayed my welcome. What am i talking about, sure i was never welcome in the first place. It would never do for anyone to have an opinion other than those who frequent your site. Was an enjoyable experience though.
Best wishes
Yes I agree we do have our fair share of layabouts but at least they’re ours. As for you assumption that foreigners dont come here for the easy pickings. Think you need to waken up and smell the coffee. Your obviously on the same planet as a lot of others on this forum. Its called denial.
As for the 56,000 we have who are umemployed please dont insult them all by suggesting that most of them dont want to work.
I agree about the them or us bit though and i think its now time we stick together to save our country but you wont see it the same way i do that wouldnt be convenient for you.
Do your own research, I do mine.
No Dec its people with attitudes like yours that will be the ruination of this country I,ll be able to hold my head up and say at least I tried. But at the end of the day if there is too much dead weight lying around we are all gonna sink.
Well done.
The thread was based on Alex’s article so mentioning his viewpoint which you validate is quite acceptable. Only Alex I’m sure wouldn’t endorse your extreme interpretation. Maybe you should submit your own thread on the issue.
Any assumption is based on what you posted. I’m sorry that you are unhappy to discover you are projecting such an image. Maybe if you read your posts again when you are not working so hard you might understand how such an impression would arise. However, your posts fit in with the extreme right. viewpoint, one I find negative and destructive. I don’t believe objecting to your ‘truths’ is childish but quite justifiable.
Oh, I can count Poles, Czechs, Nigerians, Ghanians Moslems and even Catholics amongst my friends. So I do know what I’m talking about. It’s fear of the unknown. But it can be overcome.
Ann you miss the point again. You personally are being subsidised to the tune of thousands of pounds a year, perhaps tens of thousands by the developing countries because you have exported the dirty manufacturing processes, the intensive farming process, the toxic cleaning processes of everything you use to people who don’t have the protection you have, who don’t have a social protection system, who don;t have environmental rules and regulations. They increasingly have nothing to lose so will come here in increasing numbers, eventually millions. Their lands are being left barren, polluted, with no clean water, no electricity, multinational companies screwing every last hour of labour, climate change is making more and more lands uninhabitable. I’d come here too. If you want to turn off the tap of immigration – just go upstream and turn off the reasons for it. That’s right you can’t – not on your own anyway. Might as well enjoy parochialism for the last few years of its existence.
Anyway top marks to you Ann Cooper for the rearguard fire fighting.
It’s the same old story, when things aren’t going well, it’s someone else’s fault (immigrants, gypsies, jews, fenians etc)
In the case of EU immigration the fault rests with politicians in particular who struggle to be reactive (never mind being pro-active) to it and to revise policy around services that have the capacity to deal with the influx of migrants and can match demands in the area.
You see there were actually areas in Belfast with long term population decline and a shrinkage of public services based on that decline, the areas experienced school closures matching that depopulation. Except over the last 6 years or so that has been turned on its head because of the new migration in areas where the old public policy still expects the decline to continue.
And the workers registration scheme doesn’t help plan services for the long term because after the year is up no one knows if the migrants left or stayed on, or got work elsewhere because that isn’t immediately identifiable under that scheme, as you drop off the radar after the year. The census will show quite authoritatively such changes, but given the pace of recent EU integration the sovereign government should have invested in a running a few 5 yearly census for this period, given such unique circs. It could have better stayed on top of the figures this way.
To me I see things in terms of demographics than race like Ann, but thig.
Still the somewhat unresponsive nature of our Assembly to change on the ground, and the further expected shrinkage in public services when the subsidy is cut from London is just going to test these issues Ann holds to be true all the more.
Are you saying, Ann, that there are children here who have no school places? Where are they being educated? In hedge schools? This is more serious than I thought.
I bet she’s glad to have that off her chest.
Absolutely.
Well said Chekov, though I’m not convinced of the SDLP’s ‘shared future’ bona fides at all.
It’s a bit of a straw man argument Kane puts forward in places. It’s not that people just ‘choose’ to live apart; sometimes they have little opportunity to do anything but.
No Socaire the hedge schools havent been set up yet, maybe in a few years though. No, children are obviously still being educated but some are having to travel miles to go to school because the ones close by are over subscribed. But sarcasm is the lowest form of wit incase you didnt know.
I am not asking Alex to endorse my view point I am merely stating a fact of what is happening in our country. Nor am I worried how my opinion is twisted to appear, to suit those who do not wish to look beyond their noses. Its your problem your so closed minded you cant see whats happening.
Well someone has to.
I was a bit surprised David Vance didn’t put in an appearance. After all he must have spent ages pounding the streets of East Belfast.
Down South you make this sound personal. Its the governments who are exporting. And as for those countries who have nothing and their land is barren. Is that my fault. Dont think so. Charity begins at home and the sooner you see the point the sooner the western world might have a chance of survival.
Good morning all you patriots with your heads so far up your leftie asses. Dont bother to post back as I dont intend to come back to hear anymore excellent propaganda.
I had a wonderful experience yesterday. I wish I could hang around today to listen to more of your closed minded veiws, but unfortunately I must go to work, pay taxes etc, just so your foreign free loading friends can carry on living the free life they have became so accustomed to at the tax payers expense (that being me and those like me).
So I would like to congratulate you on a job well done. Roll on the total destabilisation of our country, which is what most of you have always wanted. When we have no country left, dont worry, maybe we can move to Africa or Bangladesh and explain to them how they owe us, because we gave them our country.
But dont forget your basket, you know the one you’ll need to catch your rolling head for daring to speak out of turn. So once again well done to those who’s ultimate aim has always been the destruction of Northern Ireland. There are those who tried before with the bomb and the bullet, but they did not suceed and now your type are gonna try it with the flood of immigration, what a clever plot.
You should be ashamed of yourselves favouring those who would just as soon walk over you dying in the street, something the people of this country irrespective of which side of the divide they come from would never do.
You deserve all that is coming your way.
I had already been told this was a Republican site with a profound hatred of Northern Ireland, but I had to see for myself. Unfortunately those who warned me were correct, but me being me always believe it is only fair to listen to both sides of all arguments and consider everyones opinion which I prefer to do. There are people on here who do not have the ability to see beyond their own closed minds so in their opinion there is only one opinion and everyone else is wrong. I have now witnessed it for myself.
Anyone been to Dublin lately. I have had correspondence from people there and surprisingly they agree with me, but then they have witnessed the full force of immigration you havent yet.
So on that note I will leave.
Ann, you forgot to mention “rivers of blood”.
“I had already been told this was a Republican site with a profound hatred of Northern Ireland, but I had to see for myself. Unfortunately those who warned me were correct, but me being me always believe it is only fair to listen to both sides of all arguments and consider everyones opinion which I prefer to do.”
I think you do a disservice to Pete Baker, Turgon and may others who regularly post well written, well researched and thoughtful pieces from a Unionist perspective. I understand that you post here:
http://www.anncoopertuv.co.uk/
and here
http://blog.anncoopertuv.co.uk/#home
I am disappointed that rather than put in the effort to research your subject properly you just type.
If it really was the case that your cousin was unable to get a place at a Dundonald Primary school why do you not put up more detail?
Which school?
Is their admission policy published? It is for Belfast Board schools.
http://www.belb.org.uk/Downloads/OpenEnrolment/open_enrolment_in_primary_schools_2010.pdf
As to this being a “Republican” site, I thought Orange and Green politics were not important to you.
Where is this second class citizens in our own country stuff and nonsense coming from?
You sound somewhat paranoid, Ann.
if you stand outside at getting out time you will see how many foeign (sic) children leave the premises.
How are you identifying the “foreign” children?
And it’s probably unwise to lurk around outside schools when the children are getting out.
There isn’t a problem with immigration in NI, there is a problem with scroungers, they are mostly home grown and indeed glorified with some sort of robinhood status. It seems to be a badge of honour to be stealing from the tax-payer by doing the double or falsly claiming diability benefit.
I am merely stating a fact of what is happening in our country.
Ann, No you are not. You consistently confuse facts with your extreme opinions.
dmcoop,
I dunno if you’ve seen this but if not, it’s a funny coincidence, on http://blog.anncoopertuv.co.uk/#home (the lady who clearly speaks for no political party who has a TUV reference on each of her many many web sites) actuially contains the entire text of the rivers of blood speech addended with Ann’s opinion:
Of course this speech was made over 40 years ago and sadly Mr Powell has just slightly underestimated the magnitude of the problem we are now faced with.
Such an open minded bunch these TUVists aren’t they. Thank God no-one votes for them and the only damage they do is to Unionism, that which they purport to care about. Incidentally can someone clear this up for me:
8000 more children last year had to be accomodated in our schools from abroad
Ann Cooper
realise we have to let in EU citizens but we do not have to accept third world and there are plenty of them here also.
Ann Cooper
Yet somehow there were only 3,700 immigrants from outside the EU, even if we assume all 3,700 are children who got the plane alone and are now living unaccompanied by parents it’s still less than half the figure you reckon are newly signed up for schooling this year. So I guess that means you’re talking utter bullshit. We all know this, but I figured someone should point it out to you too.
Finally I’d respond to this: but unfortunately I must go to work, pay taxes etc, just so your foreign free loading friends can carry on living the free life they have became so accustomed to at the tax payers expense by pointing out the fact that where I’m sitting there seem to be an awful lot of foreign freeloaders getting down to an honest days skilled work within earshot of my seat, all paying taxes to the foriegn country they live in. Perhaps they could give lessons to the 26.6% of households in your neck of the woods that draw their income from social security as referenced on the follwing report: http://www.ebcda.org/leading/Summary%20Report.pdf Perhaps you could point yuour incisive wit at these folks instead? Nah? Thought not.
Bye