Unionism and Israel: Holy Land is not a hotter version of Ulster…
As a liberal unionist, I found the local political reaction to the Israeli attack on the Gaza aid Flotilla depressingly predictable. While Sinn Fein and SDLP MLA’s condemned the raid, Unionist politicians, foremost among them Jonathan Bell, Jeffrey Donaldson and Sammy Wilson, stood foursquare in defence of Israel’s actions.
Even the mild-mannered Danny Kennedy could not help mentioning that in his opinion “a section of the unionist population have more than a sneaking regard for the manner in which the Israeli Government defends Israel and puts its security considerations above all others”.
Only the left-leaning Fred Cobain, who last year facilitated the launch of an Irish Congress of Trade Unions report on Israel and Palestine at Stormont last year where the ICTU called for a boycott of Israeli goods expressed any unionist criticism of the IDF’s actions, branding them, along with much of the rest of the world, as “piracy”, although he did not repeat these views in the Assembly chamber.
The roots of republican and nationalist support for the Palestinian cause are relatively well understood. For the republican movement in particular the Palestinian struggle was seen, alongside that of the ANC in South Africa and ETA in the Basque Country as providing the international context of a global left-wing liberation movement against colonialism and its legacy for the IRA’s armed campaign. Indeed, one famous Belfast mural showed the IRA and PLO as brothers-in-arms, clutching a rocket launcher, with the simple caption proclaiming “one struggle”.
The SDLP, whilst abhorring terrorism at home and abroad, nevertheless has also consistently expressed solidarity with the Palestinian people. In contrast little serious examination has been made of Unionism’s traditional support for the Israeli position, other than as simple knee-jerk opposition to the nationalist stance. Whilst this may not be entirely untrue, I believe there is a little more to it than that.
I believe the roots of Unionist solidarity with Israel lie in evangelical protestantism. As a people brought up in a bible-centred, old testament-heavy tradition, hearing at church, home, sunday school, and via the loyal orders the tales of Moses visiting the ten plagues upon Egypt and freeing the Hebrews from slavery, Joshua leading his people to the promised land and tearing down the walls of Jericho with a blast of trumpets, Gideon defeating the Midianites with a mere 300 men, of David slaying Goliath, and of how against the odds Jehovah would repeatedly deliver his chosen people from the Egyptians, Assyrians, Persians, and Philistines, it is little wonder that god-fearing unionists would naturally favour the modern-day state of Israel against the descendants of its ancient enemies.
Indeed in the case of Nelson McCausland that sense of solidarity goes even further as a British Israelite, believing the population of the British Isles to be largely descended from the ten lost tribes of Israel and that thus the peoples of the two lands are in fact kith and kin.
Whilst most unionists may not identity quite so closely with Israel as Mr McCausland, many unionists nevertheless do see parallels with Israel, perceiving both as divinely-ordained settler peoples (indeed not merely as a people, but “the people”) in a permanent struggle for survival against hostile natives bent on their destruction.
From this viewpoint, the respective struggles against the IRA, PLO and latterly Hamas were part of a common “war on terror” long before September 11th 2001, and indeed during the two conflicts Unionist and Israeli politicians often seemed to say much the same things, sharing the same discourse of democracy versus terrorism, whether in defence of “little israel” or “our wee country”, in the face of a seemingly unfriendly media which had made world opinion largely sympathetic to their enemies. The earlier quote from Danny Kennedy also reflects another of the main wellsprings for unionist admiration of Israel, namely its hardline security policy to fight fire with fire, paying back every act of Palestinian violence fifty or a hundred times over, in the process regularly committing Bloody Sunday-type incidents such as that on the Mavi Mamara with barely a shrug, much less regret.
As Sammy Wilson laments in the News Letter, “It is just a pity the government of the UK did not show the same determination against the IRA…” the implication being that if only the British government had followed the Israeli example and took the gloves off, a security solution could have been achieved and the IRA clearly defeated militarily, making the compromises of the peace process unnecessary.
The fact that despite over forty years of wielding the IDF sledgehammer the Palestinian nut has yet to crack, and Northern Ireland has enjoyed relative piece and stability for some years now while the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has become more bitter and entrenched than ever does not seem to dissuade them of this belief.
Finally, facile as it sounds, it does seem that in the tribal, zero-sum nature of traditional Northern Ireland politics from which we are only just slowly starting to emerge, that for many ordinary unionists, with little knowledge beyond TV bulletins of the Arab-Israeli conflict, the sight of Palestinian flags across the peaceline is a good enough reason to put up the Israeli flags on their lamp posts.
For Unionist and nationalist politicians debating the conflict serves as a proxy for own, adopting them almost as favourite football clubs, indulging the old arguments that relative peace and power-sharing have made more difficult to do between themselves, providing endless opportunities for “whataboutery” and dwelling on the suffering of their chosen side and the atrocities of their opponents whilst ignoring the grievances of the latter and the sins of the former.
Indeed, I am convinced that were the Assembly to debate, say, Western Sahara, Unionists would automatically support Morocco and Nationalists the Polisario, that is, if any MLA’s had ever heard of Western Sahara.
Whilst I can understand why most unionists support Israel, as a unionist it is a stance I do not share, primarily in remembrance of the victims of Zionist terrorism against the British authorities in Palestine prior to 1948. To provide just a few examples, in November 1944 while the British Army (including the Jewish Brigade) fought to free Europe from Nazi tyranny and thus end the Holocaust as soon as possible, the Dublin-born Walter Guinness, 1st Lord Moyne, was murdered alongside his driver by two members of Lehi (the Stern gang).
One of the leading members of Lehi was Yitzhak Shamir, who so admired and wished to emulate the IRA he even adopted the nom de guerre of Michael in tribute to Michael Collins, a fact both unionists and republicans seem to conveniently overlook. In 1947 the Irgun under the leadership of future Likud founder Menachem Begin, kidnapped and murdered Sergeants Mervyn Paice and Clifford Martin in reprisal for the execution of three Irgun terrorists. Even after independence Lehi assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte as he tried to end the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.
And all this before mentioning the most infamous atrocity of all, the 1946 bombing of the King David Hotel by the Irgun in which 91 people (including 17 Jews) were murdered, the vast majority of whom were civilians. In fairness I should point out that mainstream Zionism in the form of the Jewish Agency under David Ben-Gurion condemmed all these atrocities, yet the attitude of the State of Israel to these groups and their actions since has been less than commendable.
Both the Irgun and Lehi were quickly integrated into the IDF after independence, and under Menachem Begin the state instituted official service ribbons for members of the terror groups. Both Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin long preceded Martin McGuinness and Gerry Kelly on the path from terrorism to government, becoming Prime Ministers of Israel. And as recently as 2006 the current Likud leader and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, so quick to condemn almost any act of Palestinian resistance as terrorism, attended a 60th anniversary celebration of the King David Hotel bombing, describing it, in words chillingly familiar to unionists, as “legitimate military action.”
Indeed the final insult came with the commerative plaque placed at the hotel, which implicitly blames the British authorities for the loss of life for not evacuating the hotel in time, the same hollow excuse used so often by the IRA down the years. For unionists to support a state which honours those who murdered members of the crown forces and whose hypocrite Prime Minister celebrates the massacre which inaugurated the post-war age of terror while defaming those on a mission of mercy, mown down for attempting to repel boarders by IDF commandos stooping to the level of Somali pirates, as “violent supporters of terrorism”, is a position without logic and consistency and one which I refuse to have any part of.
Whilst I have no love for Israel and great sympathy for the plight of the Palestinian people, I have no illusions about Hamas or Fatah, whose past actions have been lesser in scale to Israel’s but no less in savagery. Seventeen years since the signing of the Oslo accords and ten since the last meaningful negotiations I believe a two state solution on mutually acceptable terms is no longer achievable or even desirable. I believe the only way for long-term peace to be achieved is for Israel and the occupied territories to come together as a new unitary bi-national state, a joint homeland of Israelis and Palestinians, the Union of Palestine and Israel (UPI) if you will. The UPI would have permanent equal representation of Israeli and Palestinians in parliament and government regardless of demographics, and a joint premiership modelled after our own OFMDFM.
The “separation barrier” would be removed, Israeli evictions of Palestinians from east Jerusalem would cease but Israeli west bank settlements allowed to remain. As one state there would be complete freedom of movement, Israelis could live in Gaza if they wished, Palestinians in Tel Aviv. Palestinians would have the right of return to the new state, but the Israeli law of return would continue to let Jews worldwide come and settle.
The new state would return the Golan Heights to Syria and the Shebba Farms to Lebanon, sign peace treaties with all its neighbours (with the Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese satisified, how could Iran refuse?) and give up its nuclear weapons. The Israelis gain peace and the retention of their homeland at little cost, the Palestinians equality and stop being refugees in their own country. Whilst such a plan may seem utopian, so did the idea of re-establishing a jewish state at the time of the first Zionist congress in 1897.
Comparisons between Northern Ireland and Palestine/Israel only go so far. The Holy Land is not a hotter version of Ulster, Israelis are not Prods in skullcaps and Palestinians are not Republicans in teatowels, but if there is one lesson I believe they can take from Northern Ireland it is that until Israelis and Palestinians learn to live together they will continue to die together.
More rubbish from Alias
Just as the disparate english speaking tribes the Americans , Canadians , Australians , Scots , Irish , Welsh , English , Americans etc etc etc are all ‘nations ‘ even if they are not all nation states likewise the Libyans , Moroccans . Tunisians , Jordanians , Syrians , Egyptians, Saudis , Kuwaitis , Yemenites ,Palestinians are all Arabs predominantly even if not all are nation states .
The Palestinians are an integral part of the Arab world just the Northern Irish are part of the ‘Irish ‘ world and Northern Unionists are part of the British ‘world ‘
An absolutely pathetic attempt to deny people their sense of nationality . Your pro Israeli bias is not just showing it’s backfiring . If you keep it up long enough you might even be classified as a ‘unionist
Not brilliant at all . Actually sick . Did they do a similar gig when the Israelis killed a thousand women and children last year in their phosphorous bombing of Gaza ?
There is a time and a place for retroactive rip offs even of this ilk . In most cultures it’s not a week or so after the deaths of people .
As I said sick
wilde rover ,
I used to pose such questions to David Vance .
Ask no questions and you get told no lies at least in Vance’s case . Don’t feel slighted .
‘He really doesn’t like it at all’
At all at all at all at all . His world is a simple one . Britain good , moral -Israel better and even more moral – Ireland bad – Irish republicans worse and Palestinians evil
Its a simple world which suits his local agenda .
‘Maybe answering it would cause his head to explode ‘
Then perhaps he should’nt
? The TUV is in enough of a mess as it is 
Mick,
…the Jew imports must be repatriated to their countries of origin.”
That is 100% correct, that is what I said and that is what I believe, if someone can come up with a viable solution to the Palestinian question (have to say Palestinian question because if you say Israeli question you get branded a Nazi) that does not require the repatriation of the non indigenous peoples of the region I’ve yet to hear it.
The land is too small in size to sustain the failed political initiatives forced upon it by successive partisan American administrations through its purchased puppet the U.N, which in turn have been completely ignored by successive Israeli administrations.
The amount of arable land and the quality of the soil is not conducive to the supporting of large populations only 18% of the land is naturally arable, and if the confiscated land is returned to the Arabs (as in agreement with U.N resolutions) this falls to 8% whilst many will jump on to Wikka to haul out a list of agricultural products by Israel I’d just like to save them some time by telling them you can’t feed a nation on dates flowers and kiwi fruit.
The Israel government admit that they do not grow enough food for their people and that excludes the over populated ghetto of Gaza and the West bank, yet much of the land that the Israelis use for their agriculture is stolen land belonging to Palestinians.
This land theft didn’t happen in the old or new testament or in 1948 but in every month of every year since the formation of the state.
If a Palestinian farmer had good water or desalted land the local Israelis would report it to the authorities who would send in troops to arrest either him or his son on trumped up charges of being a militant, this then gave them the authority to bulldoze the home and buildings of the Palestinian family and confiscate the land for Jewish immigrants such is the backbone of the state of Israel.
Readers must remember that there is absolutely no one (aside from specialist scientists/engineers carefully selected by the government) who has immigrated to Israel in the last 40 years that has not been a Jew or of a Jewish family.
Being a mechanic or joiner or doctor was not enough one had to have Jewish blood and remember if you are not a full Jew you are not allowed to get married in Israel.
They weren’t indulging Protestants Catholics or Moonies just Jews therefore they were and will remain “Jewish imports”
It was the state of Israel that went on the crusade of the “RETURN” were any Jew anywhere was promised a home in Israel (immigration on steroids) obviously there wasn’t enough land so the Palestinians were robbed of theirs, many thousands of these human “imports” were economic migrants who wore the cloak of persecution as a means to an end, in many cases the Russians that came to Israel in the 80s and 90s had only converted to Judaism several weeks previously to escape the politics of Soviets.
As to your query as to whether or not I wished to blacks returned to Africa ect, well lets put it this way ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! However if say Nigerians or Ghanaians came over to say Ballyclare and started taking the land of the people who lived there with no compensation or right of appeal and soon the had done the same in Doagh down to Glengormly and up to Carrickfergus forcing all the indigenous Irish/NornIrish/Ulsterscotties whatever into Islandmagee and fenced it off not allowing them in or out unless they queued for 8-16 hours at a checkpoint and shelled it at will if they put up a fight…
Then I say……… ABSOLUTELY YES !!!
Maybe David Vance could give his opinion about the Israeli suprise assult in international waters on the USS Liberty on 8th June 1967.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fuZKyTGKYo&feature=player_embedded#!
I was agreeing with the OP for the first half about how daft is the blind Unionist support of israel, then in the second half it all went a bit awry in my opinion.
All that stuff about the Stern Gang and terrorism is a bit out of date these days.
And the idea of a one state solution is just not a goer I’m afraid, even though in theory it would be the ideal solution.
The two peoples are just too tribal for it to be viable.
There would be competition for cultural dominance I think, and Jews would not put up with having to compete in a united Israel/Palestine.
Even something as seemingly trivial as the Israeli beach culture would feel under pressure from one community thinking that seeing people in bathing suits was the craziest thing they ever saw, with groups of arab teenagers going down to gawp.
You can see such a difference in the twin towns of Eilat in Israel and Aquba in Jordon.
Even though the toens are right next to each other, on the Israeli side people wear very little on the beach and sunbathe, while on the Jordainan side people go into the water fully clothed and sometimes in burkas.
The Israeli’s wouldn’t put up with it I’m afraid.
United Palestine has as much of a chance as United Ireland.
A Glaswegian Jew I know was on a kibbutz when he was asked, “Do you want a farm?”. Some Israeli settlers had arranged for soldiers to kick a Palestinian family off their land, so they would have sell the land cheaply. He was told he would have to pretend to be religious, wear the cap etc., but all they wanted was the land.
Note that this was the settler movement (not the official government) – yet it is strange that these people do not go to jail for fraudulently acquiring land, but instead get supported by the government.
It is time for liberal Jews and others to send teams to do in the West Bank what the civil rights campaigners did in the southern states of the USA – investigate injustices and prosecute them.
I’m not sure that what you describe is a problem. For the Palestinian state to be legitimate it is not necessary for Palestinians to be unique, merely for them to be not of the Israeli nation, which they plainly are not. Apart from language, culture etc. their is no shared social contract.
The problems arise either from Israelis seeking to rule the Palestinians or the Palestianinas or other Arabs seeking to rule over Israelis (e.g. one state solution followed by population shift in the total Israel + West Bank + Gaza entity to >50% Arab).
The position of Israel is partly “colonial” in that they have ruled over Arabs (whether of the Palestinian or Arab nation is not really important), having the original justification for this was that they were attacked. Therefore their occupation was of a similar nature to US rule of Japan or Germany post WWII, which could be termed a kind of necessary and pragmatic colonialism. While this is no long term justification for occupation, when Israel pulls out of these territories they have always been attacked by those seeking to deny any state to the Israeli nation, and hence they are left in a situation rather like if the US pulled out of Japan and after they did the Japanese kept re-bombing Pearl Harbour. True they have never retreated to 1967 borders, but what would be the point if Palestinians did not agree to the existence of Israell?
Thus the core problem remains the Palestinian non-recognition of a state for the Israeli nation in perpetuity. This is before such things as precise borders can be discussed. The ultimate aim of Hamas is like those of the IRA the denial of any state accorded to a nation which they wish to religate from any nation status to that of an ethnic minority without self determination. In my opinion many in the IRA accepted the GFA on the same terms as Hamas’ proposed 10 year hudna, a truce whereby ultimately their opposing nation will ultimately be subjuagted and it’s self determination destroyed, though by demographics and 50%+1 for the IRA case. I would not necessarily characterise that as the position of the “Catholic” population as a whole though, either north or south.
Incidentally, while the Israelites have been in the region that is now known as modern Israel for 3,300 years and have governed it until they were conquered and expelld by the Romans, there isn’t actually a Palestinian nation and nor was there ever a state where this non-existent once exercised the right to self-determination via self-government that it now claims that Jews have deprived it of. Jews became a nation circa two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
it’s pretty obvious Alias that you treat the bible as a history book instead of the fiction it clearly is. First up to claim the original Israelites governed it until expelled by the romans….well that is just plain wrong. For most of their existence the Israelite kingdoms of Israel and Judah were vassal states of larger empires. Sure even when the story of the Exodus from Egypt is set, Canaan was a Vassal state of Egypt. And the fact the Bible claims that Moses helped his people escape from Egypt to…mmmm…Egypt, should give you an inkling as to the veracity, or lack thereof of the bible narrative. You also claim incorrectly that the Romans expelled the Israelites. Again you seem to be putting more weight into scripture than historical reality. the Romans expelled the ruling Jewish elite for not keeping the proles in line. But remember also that the revolt was directed as much against the ruling Jewish elite as it was against the romans. And the ridiculousness of the bible narrative is highlighted by the fact that not only would it have been nearly logistically impossible, but the Romans weren’t the kind of people to deprive themselves of an entire tax paying and crop growing populous. And this is before we even get to the absence of such an account in the reams of Roman documentation from this period. The fact that there existed a small indigenous Jewish minority in Palestine since that time demonstrates the fallacy of your premise. And you also seem to think that Islam and Christianity spread in the Levant without any Jewish converts.
What are now referred to as Palestinians are actually a loose affiliation of different Arab tribes with no such thing as a Palestinian language or distinct culture, literature, art, ect, that constitute a nation. Indeed, the ‘Palestinians’ are quite quick to butcher other Arabs within that affiliation since there is no nation to unite them. .
It matters not a jot what a people decide to call themselves. nothing gives colonists the right to come and remove the majority of them from their land and establish and ethnocracy on their land. Furthermore, you seem to wish to take an entire peoples humanity from them by virtue of the fact they did not conform to your idea of a nation, which as you think of, is actually a western european construct. But the loyalities of family and love for their land were well know. Even Napoleon himself could testify to that, after he attempted to invade Palestine in 1799, the local Palestinian families united under Shaykh Yusuf Jarrar.
The myth of a Palestinian nation is a 20th century
invention
You don’t seem to be aware that all nations are inventions….human constructs. Sure the idea of a ‘Jewish nation’ as in world Jewry constituting a single national group only developed in the mid 19th Century in Europe when the idea of the modern nation state was first taking root. When the likes of Henreich Graetz began writing and released his History of the Jews from the Oldest Times to the Present. Before the rise of zionism a Persian jew would not have viewed himself as belonging to the same ethnic or national group as an East European or American Jew, or a Falasha for that matter.
So, the ‘Gazans’ are now emerging as ‘nation’ from under the Palestinian banner wherein they have taken to butchering those who operate under that banner in the West Bank (see what they did to their ‘nation’ in Fatah).
You don’t seem to understand that this is precisely Israels aim. Divide and Conquer, ever heard of it? Israel balks at the thought of Palestinian unity, because it would inevitably make it more difficult for them to continue their land theft in the West Bank. One need only look at the history of Hamas rise in the 80′s and see how Israel wasn’t averse to letting Hamas flourish in order to act as a counterweight to Fatah.
And it case you believe the myth there actually is a Palestinian nation (distnct from Arabs), you should be aware that even the Palestinian National Covenant (Charter) adopted by the PLO doesn’t make that claim. It clearly states in Article 1 (the article wherein pride of place is given) that “Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation.”
It matters not a jot what they wish to call themselves or whether they wish to be part of some larger Arab nation. Your superimposing of the European idea of a ‘nation’ on top of them does not legitimise Zionism thieving their land and imposing an ethnocratic state there. Furthermore if its a european idea of a nations state you think they have to qualify for, they have a better claim to that than World Jewry does. You seem to ignore the undeniable history of conversion and proselytism which Judaism has. It spread far beyond the Levant well before the Biblical story of the exile is set. And this before we even get to those ‘dreaded’ Khazars.
Which votes do you believe they are trying to protect? Belfast’s Jewish community, even assuming them all to be pro-zionist, is now barely in three figures, so it can hardly be them.
Certainly there is a tendency for Nationalists to gravitate to the left and Unionists to the right on issues, but I believe there is a strong religious basis for Unionist (and indeed the american christian right’s) support of Israel, which is somewhat ironic given that Zionism was (at least originally) a secular, left wing project, with Mapai/Labor dominating Israeli politics during the state’s first thirty years of existence.
Ahmadinejad is not the first middle-east leader to make such comments, and probably not the last, but empty rhetoric will certainly never wipe Israel off the map. He may be a tyrant and a demagogue, but we certainly shouldn’t mistake him for a fool. Peace between Israelis and their immediate neighbours would cause the wellsprings of support for the likes of Ahmadinejad and Al-Qaeda to dry up.
British Israelism is indeed a micro-group, but I thought it worth noting that someone as senior within Unionism as Nelson McCausland subscribes to it.
The comparisons between Israel and Apartheid-era South Africa may be as imperfect a fit as with Northern Ireland, but as the Palestinian population looks set to overtake the Jewish population in the not too distant future those parallels will become stronger and it will become increasingly untenable for Israel to continue to hold the Occupied territories in their entirety. This was why Ariel Sharon, just as hawkish as Netanyahu, but slightly more pragmatic, removed the settlers from the Gaza Strip and started to build the West Bank wall to hive off the “juicy bits” Israel wanted to keep permanently, from those it cannot hold onto in the long run if a two-state solution is still envisaged. However Netanyahu’s terms for a two-state solution are so restrictive the rump West bank and Gaza Strip would be little better than the “Bantustans” created by South Africa, and just as unsuccessful, which is why I believe a two-state solution mutually acceptable to both sides is probably no longer possible.
David, given that you regard the Irgun as legitimate and refuse to condemn the methods they used, such as the King David Hotel bombing, surely it’s reasonable to assume you’ve got no problem with the Provos using the same tactics ?
Whilst the Irgun and Lehi campaigns may be long past, I felt the hypocrisy shown by the current Israeli Prime Minister, condemning Palestinian terrorism (of which he has a very wide definition if his “hate boat” comments are anything to go by) while celebrating Zionist terrorism was very relevant. Indeed of the KIng David Hotel bombing, regarding a disputed telephone warning, he even had the gall to say “Imagine that Hamas or Hizbullah would call the military headquarters in Tel Aviv and say, ‘We have placed a bomb and we are asking you to evacuate the area.’ They don’t do that. That is the difference.” I don’t think even David Vance could swallow that one.
I’d just like to say thanks for all the positive comments, I was expecting a lot more criticism than I actually got.
Damon, certainly my idea for a UPI looks a long shot, but the “peace process” badly needs some out-of-the-box thinking (apologies for the cliche) if there is to be any chance of bringing it back from the dead.
Turgon, completely off-topic, but have you been watching the last series of 24 on sky 1? (Spoilers from here on in)
In the last few episodes, as Jack Bauer goes after his own personal brand of justice, which will stop the peace treaty between the US, IRK and Russia, he uses language and arguments very reminiscent of the 1998 “no” campaign against the good friday agreement “no true peace without justice”, etc. I think there is a good article to be made out of this and as a former TUV supporter and lover of analogies I think you would make a better job of it than me.
not all Moroccans are Arabs, the Native Berbers were force into the Marginal parts of Morocco by the invading Arabs. Nationalities such Jordanians, Iraqi, etc are a British creation.
‘I’d just like to say thanks for all the positive comments,’
Your sensible post told it like it is so why would’nt you get positive comments ?
It’s a relief to know that not every Unionist out there is wearing a skull cap and waving the Star of David flag
It was a pro-Hamas propaganda exercise that actually worked out very well for those who hate Israel. They were willing to sacrifice the people for the sake of a headline from gullible media outlets. The deaths were entirely the responsibility of the ‘sick’ organisers of this event.
Republican Stones: ‘you treat the bible as a history book instead of the fiction it clearly is’
Okay, Wise Guy, give us some clear empirical examples of inaccurate historical information in the Bible.
What an utterly ridiculous question. The whole frickkin thing is inaccurate. Written hundreds of years after the events it purports to describe. If you don’t want to take my word for it, try professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University…. Ze’ev Herzog
Following 70 years of intensive excavations in the Land of Israel, archaeologists have found out: The patriarchs’ acts are legendary, the Israelites did not sojourn in Egypt or make an exodus, they did not conquer the land. Neither is there any mention of the empire of David and Solomon, nor of the source of belief in the God of Israel. These facts have been known for years, but Israel is a stubborn people and nobody wants to hear about it
Or you can have a butchers at Israel Finkelstein’s The Bible Unearthed. A very interesting book indeed. Hell pinni, we even have holy joes running round here praising some carpenters son who is actually a rip off of an earlier Egyptian God called Horus. But it is quite endearing that you take the bible as fact
Good article. Whilst I do not agree with everything the author says, I do agree with him that the issue of Israel and Palestine is not a Unionist or Nationalist issue.
I am also a moderate unionist but became involved with working on working for justice for Palestinians because of the injustice they have suffered and continue to suffer. This is not contradictory with my unionism or Christianity, in fact, if any of our unionist politicians bothered to find out they could see that all the Christian denominations in Palestine issued a call for boycott against Israel in December of last year because of its continuing violations of human rights and international law. The Kairos Document:
http://www.oikoumene.org/gr/resources/documents/other-ecumenical-bodies/kairos-palestine-document.html
They might also note with interest that the Presbyterian Church of the United States has discussed boycotting Israel for several years now.
The God of the Bible is the one true God. The God of Israel has said in his word of all the things to come just read prophetic books of Daniel and Revelation. The book the bible unearthed is clearly garbage for people to believe in. You have been mistaken off calling Jesus Christ an egyptian god called horus it is the Islam god which was originally a moon god Allah. So please get your facts straight. Repulican stones.
LOL, that’s so funny.
Well made points, RS.
Off topic – I see that a certain fascist has banned you from his blog. Clearly he just wants to hold onto the sycophants and weed out all who challenge him. You’re better off away from that sewer.
Thanks JG, his exact words were –
So, you will understand why you can now go spend more time with your inner-Nazi, and all those kindred souls on Slugger…
And yet he continues to comment here himself???? And…..
I note the company you swim in on Slugger and I simply say to you, ATW is not a place for you. Stick to the Jew-bashing, the Provo-loving – this door is now closed to you.
It seems I touched a nerve with him regarding a comment I made about Christian zionists and philo-semitism (which he didn’t refute btw). So it goes….
Yeah I was lurking over there and saw the thread. Frankly there’s more chance of him winning an election than debating honestly. Not worth the bother.
Imagine you were born in an Israeli. Your dad came from Morocco, your mum from Poland. It’s not so hard, they are not so different from us.
You want to live as an “ethnic minority” in a majority Arab state, as an “ethnic minority” like the Jews in Iran or the Jews in Egypt?
You’d fight tooth and nail for self determination and an Israeli state whatever it’s borders.
Don’t lie to yourself.
Great piece, Hamas was the result of divide and conquer. Israel created Hamas in the hope of weakening the P.L.O.
Dodrade,
I forgot to mention, a good post on your part. Well balanced.
However, I think it could have been helped by an addition at the end, dealing with what happened after the founding of the state of Israel.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
While, as The Horse mentioned above, Israelis can argue that the attack on the USS Liberty was an accident (however laughably) there’s no escaping the fact that they used a false flag tactic of pretending to be Egyptians and targeted US and UK businesses.
Perhaps unionists should think about how they support a state that wanted to blow up British businesses to gain a tactical advantage.
Greenflag,
“His world is a simple one . Britain good , moral -Israel better and even more moral – Ireland bad – Irish republicans worse and Palestinians evil
Its a simple world which suits his local agenda”
Yes, it must be comforting to live in a world of absolutes.
If you want to read more of the similarities of the conflicts in Israel, N Ireland and South Africa this is an excellent book :
God’s Peoples: Covenant and Land in South Africa, Israel, and Ulster by Donald Harman Akenson
Review from Amazon :
In this sterling study of three of the world’s most obdurate political conflicts, Akenson finds a common thread in the views of Ulster Scots Presbyterians, Dutch Reformed Church Afrikaners, and the Jews of Israel, each of whom are committed to an Old Testament-like covenant with God that promises them the land they struggled to get if they make the commitment and sacrifice necessary in such a covenant. With superb scholarship and compelling writing, Akenson brilliantly documents the creation of this mentality of commitment and siege (these are God’s chosen people under attack from external enemies). He takes us to the present with the fraying of the Ulster covenant by the Catholic civil rights movement of 1969; the worldwide response to apartheid after 1969; and the claim of the Jews to “greater Israel” after the 1967 war. Akenson concludes that patience works better than confrontation with these societies. The combination of a masterful handling of comparative history, an engaging and well-supported thesis, and a challenging but not condescending treatment of these three societies makes this a highly recommended choice for most libraries
RS, so, is that it?? That all you got? Pretty flimsy case against the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible. Show me the errors, the contradictions etc that people like to talk about. Give us a clear example of what you are talking about, not some summary statement that you or someone else think backs up your case.
Just google bible archeology and you’ll find gobs of examples of the historical accuracy of the Bible.
What would Jesus do???
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/panelists/paula_kirby/2010/06/gaza_wwjd.html
Simples.
Pretty flimsy case against the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible.
Hang on pinni, you still don’t seem to realise that the Bible is a pretty flimsy thing all on its own. But it’s cute that you prefer people who fire their darts first then draw the bullseye round them.
LMAO pinni, sure go and google ‘Arthurian Archeology’.
I’ll stick with those archaeologists who are more concerned with the science and you can stick with those ones who by their own admission go about their work with bible in one hand and excavation tools in the other
“It’s a relief to know that not every Unionist out there is wearing a skull cap and waving the Star of David flag”
…let me make you even happier; I’ve also not all of them wear a sash or support Rangers;)
*sigh*
I’ve also heard not all of them wear a sash or support Rangers;)
F.A.O. DAVID VANCE, PINNI AND THEIR MUCKERS!
Are these people Nazis, anti semites or Israel haters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drLJgea7Ftg
I’d really love to know what you think of these people
One of the most (maybe the most) influential and respected books in the history of mankind is ‘flimsy’, RS??
That’s absolutely hilarious!
What planet do you live on, anyway?
Andnowhwat,
I don’t fit into any of the above cats but as I right of centre Unionist I can make you aware of my views. Of course these people have a right to demonstrate against their governments policy – fair play to them – that’s what democracy is all about….
However I have also found this thread littered with anti-semitism although I have to admit I have been also impressed that most of those on the ‘other side’ of the arguement have not fallen into this trap.
O’Neill – who I’m sure I’m diametrically opposed to on political lines expressed some interesting comments on this earlier. Apparently it’s ok on slugger to express any view at all whether it’s C18 or Antisemitism …. Seems to fly in the face of the whole raft of equality legislation in NI…
Vanhelsing, in truh I’ve only seen one poster express anti semitism on here and sod him.
The only defence I could have for him/her is that he has fallen for the pro zionist line that all jews supprt the Israli goverment’s actions.
The guys on the video clearly do not and nor do these guys..
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
There are also some Isreali group’s that have fimed (with the assistance of Palestinians) abuses by settlers and IDF soldiers.
The net (provide one checks the source) has changed how we see the news and people should use it before forming stupid points of views provided they do not look for info exclusively that confirms whatever point of view they already have.
In the search for truth, anger is a poor tool
Re expressing views on Slugger VS, is it not better that they can say these things and be exposed by the responses of others?
‘not all Moroccans are Arabs,’
I refer you to my comment
‘are all Arabs predominantly’
‘Nationalities such Jordanians, Iraqi, etc are a British creation.’
So is Northern Ireland . And it’s ‘right ‘ to continue to exist as a separate state is accepted by the vast majority of Irish people north and south -until such time as a majority of people within Northern Ireland decide to vote themselves out of the UK and into a UI .
o’neill
‘let me make you even happier;’
Eh ? I said relieved . This is not the same as happy . I don’t have a problem with people wearing a sash or supporting Rangers .
Happiness would be ‘political ‘ unionism in NI taking a running jump ‘naked ‘ off Rathlin Island in mid January
))
o’neill
‘let me make you even happier;’
Eh ? I said relieved . Not the same as happy . I don’t have a problem with people wearing a sash or supporting Rangers as long as they behave themselves within the law .
Happiness would be ‘political ‘ unionism in NI taking a running jump ‘naked ‘ off Rathlin Island in mid January
))
In your case Oneill I’ll make an exception . July or Auguat would be fine and a wet suit would be allowed
‘sigh ‘ also ;(
Oneill you are contagious
Viva Slugger. I was banned from all radio and tv from 1972 to 1996 not only in my political capacity but right across the board.
As a then Local Historian and Folklorist my input was central to may festival events over this period yet I could not be interviewed. I have also a few National and International literary awards….. all outside Gaelic Cultural events post 1996. From 72 to 96 and indeed right trough to 2000, any Literary Festival Committee in receipt of grants ( which in effect meant all Southern Festivals ) giving a platform to me by way of invite for a public lecture or award for literary work, or to people like me had their grants curtailed of cancelled.
There were supposed attempts at some of these events to debate topical political issues : goodness knows how many times I was approached and asked to ‘stay out of the debate or we will have to cancel this module next year’ and then the appeal that was it not better to have some debate rather than none at all ?
This self censorship by artists and artistic communities was far more hurtful and harder to take as some of these same artists could regularly be then heard on radio and TV complaining the same issues in South Africa, Israel and elsewhere while quite willing to act as the Government facilitators for the same practices at home.
We have since seen in the South that this censorship had little to do with ‘ The Boys Of The Old Brigade’ and everything to do with keeping Ireland safe for the ‘Brown Envelope Brigade’
Because of my own personal experience of the inner workings of censorship I am totally opposed to it under most circumstances. In politics there should be no taboo areas, it is much better to have the lunatic fringe out and promoting their case where it can be challenged and exposed for what it is rather than concealed and possibly gaining adherents.
A quick piece of hidden history here : Some Republicans actually worked with Irgun and the Stern gang during the Second WW years and for some time after.
The shared Intel was mainly in the prisoner area but reached right across the board and covered all areas of mutual interest. Some Mossad files will make interesting reading if they are ever opened to the public.
Vanhelsing,
“Apparently it’s ok on slugger to express any view at all”
Yes. Yes it is. I’m sure everyone in the world of Slugger is glad that you’re up to speed on that one. Good for you.
“whether it’s C18 or Antisemitism…”
Oh, oh, crying out for the Godwin, but I must resist, no, no, it’s just too much…
At first they came for the C18 members and the anti-Semites, but I said nothing…
By the way, I really like your use of the three dots. It’s very foreboding. Mick seems to like them too, but he does it in a more of a quick nod of the head and knowing glance way rather than the stern serious slickly sinister stare method you employ. Stylistically speaking, I find both schools of thought interesting in their own unique way. I shall employ them myself, if the mood takes me…
“Seems to fly in the face of the whole raft of equality legislation in NI…”
Really, sometimes it’s all about the finish, and this is nice.
Is nice.
No one likes things flying in their face, and the subtle undertones of vaguely legal menace make this just the sexiest ending I’ve seen on Slugger for a while.
All in all Vanhelsing, a cracking performance, and I look forward to reading more of your insightful comments, or do I?…
The movers and shakers of the world, not only anonymous bloggers (like myself), are starting to waken up to the fact that Turkey’s recent foreign policy actions (i.e. becoming most closely allied to Iran and its attack on Israel) are the fruit of Europe’s treatment of Turkey over recent years.
Obama’s defence secretary, Robert Gates writes a scathing article today lambasting ‘liberal’ Europe’s attitude to Turkey.
Clearly, Europe has lost Turkey to Islamic extremism, not Israel.