Is Nelson McCausland overstepping his remit?
Culture minister Nelson McCausland has written to the trustees of the National Museums Northern Ireland asking them to give more prominence in their displays and exhibitions at the Ulster Museum to Ulster Scots, the Orange Order and alternative views as regards the origins of the universe specifically creationism.
The letter, written as part of a consultation for the Ulster Museums business plan for next year (Shared Future Strategy) has led to the Director of the Museums Association Mark Taylor to state that the minister has overstepped his remit by going into too much detail in his request and should not be trying to influence what is exhibited.
Given that the Museum has been shortlisted for the prestigious art prize fund (don’t forget to vote) it would seem pretty bloody obvious that the curators and custodians of the Museum (who are world class professionals) are doing a good job and don’t need any interference from a Minister (and dare I say) his old fashioned (and mythical?) views.
edited to add
Minister McCausland on the Nolan Show stated his disappointment that the letter had been leaked. He also stated that he would be failing in his ministerial responsibilities if he didn’t try to ensure in the interests of equality and cultural rights that ALL of Northern Irelands citizens were reflected in the museum saying it was a human rights issue. (Does that mean that the small number of BNP/C18 members should have an exhibition?) He mentioned 4 points that he had raised in the letter but only got to mention 2 of them, namely that the Orange Order and other fraternal organisations should be represented at the museum and that (the more contentious theory of) Creationism should be also represented. Richard Dawkins was also on and asked if the Minister was so worried about inclusivity would he also be asking for the ‘Stork theory’ of evolution to be taught along with other “Crackpot theories”.
The minister went on to say that by far and away the most number of requests he received as minister responsible for the museum, was to do with the representation of the OO and reiterated that he had raised the issues in the interest of equality and human rights.
Region: Northern Ireland
I’m nearly amazed at your own self righteousness. The evidence and calcuations are there aleady to give us a scientific probability of the chances of BB and evo. I accept your own personal view and others on BB I happen to have a personal faith which by the way is more likely to be true that the chances of us crawling out of the mud.
Mr Canuck
I guess you just had to get out there and learn about biology!
[...] Slugger O’Toole [...]
It’s not meaningful to start estimating probabilities if you don’t understand the science well enough. The origin of life is one of science’s greatest grey areas, so any numbers must be taken with a very large pinch of salt. I don’t think any serious biologist suggests that a functional modern cell just appeared at random, which is what Hoyle’s calculation assumes, but rather that it evolved gradually from something more primitive that we don’t yet understand.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/05/irish_creationist_museum_poll.php
Vote, vote vote against Nelson
Discovering that girls were really different helped advance my knowledge!
scientists rarely know such humility
JEB,
Not exactly true although some are a bit too smug. Scientists don’t claim to know that anything is true. They come up with theories to try to explain things but those theories are always provisional. They know that further observation may shed new light on things; i.e the theories are falsifiable. Religious “beliefs” cannot be falsified. Creationism cannot even remotely be described as science.
Nuts are inlined to drive everybody else nuts. Which is why we lock them up. For their protection and ours.
Nelson is a case in point.
Actually I don’t think that it’s THAT small a minority of people over here who actually are Creationists, just the majority on this site obviously…
’68.5 per cent of the general UK population described themselves as believers’ (Telegraph 2008). Over here I would say it’s much higher. I’m not saying that they are all creationists but balance it out with the religious beliefs across both sides of our community and those people have a right to have their views represented by, well Museums for example….
Nelson McC is repping the beliefs of those in NI across both sides of the community who do believe God created the earth, even if it was millions of years ago. I have yet to here one sensible arguement amongst all this psuedo intellectual drivel that proves that Big Bang – you know what – you can’t and the odds against it are enormous – so stop whining….
If the the universe and all in it was created only 6,000 years ago, how is it possible to observe light emitted from stars from galaxies billions of light years away? Is that not all the proof you need? For the less informed, I know it’s not required for most, That means the light has taken billions of years to reach us.
I went back to listen to the Nolan show that was on Wednesday morning, please don’t tell me it’s true a third of Northern Ireland believe this. Dick bitch slapped Nelson over the maths professor. Nelson was caught telling porkies, please tell me somebody else laughed at that.
hold on a wee minnit…. the piling up of random chances is no way to evolve ANYTHING.
No more than employing an army of monkeys to try and type out War and Peace.
It takes an Editor, whether by the laws of chemical combination,the availability of raw materials, the effects of competition, or whatever.. to ruthlessly prune out unsuitable (for the current, no doubt changeing environment) mutations.
Dawkins, who I find to be just a bit too strident in his attitude, puts the topic very well with his computer iterations.
I find him very cold blooded in his assessment of humanity`s
emotional and political/religious aspects.
I think that EMPATHY which is a high level shared mental process, which enables the emotions of others to be manipulated, is a motivator for altruism on the one hand and sectarian/ racial/
political/sporting divisions as a full spectrum on the other. So it is reasonable to see how God , who is one of us, of course, can bring such comfort to the believer and can generate such fear of the deviant and unbeliever . Is it not true that human society depends as much on mental pictures as on physical things?
Wait a minute, Arlene Foster believes this too! And people here are arguing she would be an intelligent replacement as DUP leader?? I seriously worry about this. To shut your mind off to every intellectual discussion of the last 500 odd years does not, to me, seem a good qualification. I accept that all faiths are just that, a leap of faith. What I can’t accept are those who have the built-in remit to preach/convert/browbeat the ‘unsaved’ of any belief or none.
I also worry that this discussion is softening up people for a severe cut to the ‘arts’ sector; an area where we have always punched above our weight.
it took life a billion years to begin on earth as far as we are aware. when the earth was young it was very unstable and lots of chemical reactions occured, on a planets so big you could expect thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands per second. considering this your probablilty of 1*10^40000:1 is not improbable but almost inevitable. Surely this is obvious to anyone with a little bit of common sense….
johnf,
Again the enemies of evolution misrepresent what it is. It is not a “piling up of random chances”. It does not take an Editor to prune out unsuitable mutations – the clue is in the words themselves. If it is an unsuitable mutation it will fail to survive and thereby prune itself.
Natural selection is in a sense tautological: that which is good at surviving will survive. Its simplicity is its strength.
Speaking as one of the ‘artsy crowd’ in Cathedral Quarter,can I assure you that the Tatler never turn up to cover any arts events in the area. I think you are getting mixed up with the ‘artsy crowd’ in the University area, or Queen’s Quarter. Sorry, I digress. So, Nelson is immune to being sacked and Northern Ireland is held up to international ridicule. Meanwhile, the people of Northern Ireland have a Minister for Culture who is an oxymoron. Sad that we elect politicians as much on who they aren’t as who they are. What a crappy situation.
The real problem here is not that the Minister for Culture, Arts and Leisure suggests such extreme ideas for the content of the Ulster Museum. The problem is that we have a Minister for Culture Arts and Leisure who holds such beliefs because this is a reflection that the people of Northern Ireland are not sufficiently enraged or empowered to stop such an appointment.
People need to wake up to the fact that Creationists already have an insidious hold on Northern Ireland. State education is riddled with their influence. Did you know that it is actually contentious to teach evolutionary theory at primary school level in many schools in Northern Ireland. Some of the most surprising schools forbid it – yes even in affluent South Belfast! Wake up to the dangers and do something about it please.
In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance. The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It’s funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination … End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree.
Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws?
(Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I’m confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman,
Ed.D. Professor Emeritus,
Dept. Of Curriculum,
Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia
PS (It would be a damn shame if we couldn’t own a Canadian
‘please don’t tell me it’s true a third of Northern Ireland believe this.’
Look on the bright side -it could be worse . Some 40% of Americans don’t believe in evolution as an explanation for the diverse life forms on the planet .
As I said the ‘enlightenment ‘ is ongoing but with Belfast closing down libraries to save money one can easily see where the ‘priorities’ of the political leaders lie . I suppose we should be grateful that they haven’t yet called for a public burning of books that suggest the world is a ‘little’ more than 6,000 years old .
Ignorance loves and preys on itself
great letter.
Alias’s two nations in N.I got me thinking. Where can I buy a unionist slave?
Is this the wrong type of nation I am thinking of? Do they have to be recognised by the UN?
johnf,
‘So it is reasonable to see how God , who is one of us, ‘
Is that so ? Can you prove it ?
Dawkins is a first rate genius with an attiude . He doesn’t suffer creationist fools easily nor should he
By reason and not by superstious nonsense mankind moves forward .
McCausland and McIlveen and their ilk are sad reminders that some will always be left behind clinging to their creationist fantasies long after most of humanity has moved on. Maybe they both need to consider Iran as a place of abode where they will find even more fellow minded creationists and both can grow beards like the local mullahs so that we may never have to be reminded of them
‘Where can I buy a unionist slave?’
You can’t . The markets sewn up. They’ve all been bought already
The buyer I’m told is based at Exchequer Buildings but works out of number 11 Downing Street .
The market for ‘republican ‘ slaves is somewhat depressed at the moment in that prices are relatively high . Market sentiment favours a lowering of the slave price following major upcoming cuts in the supply of funds to this ungrateful element of the population
I’ve seen it before but it’s always worth a read if only to be reminded that there are many in Northern Ireland and tens of millions in the USA who actually believe the Book of Leviticus is the literal word of God and its tenets followed by all Christians .
I wonder if Dr Laura Schlesinger ever replied to Prof Kauffman’s letter ??
Something on the lines of ‘ *&%#@^&* you already’ I would think might have been the shorter version of any response from the orthodox lady
?
Regarding those from Northern Ireland who do believe in creationism. I heard one woman from west belfast say all christians share this belief. I know that is not true but does anybody have any idea how many creationists there is here? It was claimed that a third of us were on Nolan. That can not be right, can it? It is certainly not what we were taught to believe even in R.E. never mind as a science. Through school one of my RE teachers doubled as a history teacher, the other, a chemistry teacher. The former did not take it literally, she went as far as mocking those that did, the healthy approach if you are trying to educate any young mind. There would be problems if either did believe in it though I suspect some how some people can marry what they learn in Science and their religious beliefs.
My core problem with this is the essence of either. Science is a make-up of theory supported by empirical evidence. Religion is more like a language, it evolves through peoples actions and thoughts, a language can be added to without evidence or need to, through the wait of numbers, new words will evolve and be added. I think that’s what Richard Dawkins was describing when referring to science not being open to taking on ideas by their democratic appeal to the masses. The evidence suggests it is either very likely to be true, though never certain, or it is not true. There is no similar evidence for creationism whether people believe it or not. Except for some secondary evidence that says it happened. Were these people never taught the most basic idea in science in that it is the study of understanding through evidence based theory? In truth, I don’t ever remember this being pointed out to me at school though it is not hard to see. Is there a problem in our approach to science teaching in that so many can hold on to ideas that are wrong? The fact stars have emitted light over 6,000 years ago proves the existence of the universe beyond them 6,000 years. I am not speculating on what did happen, that is not needed to disprove the theory of creationism. Evolution does not need to be proved in order to prove that creationism (I.E The universe and all in it only came into being 6,000 years ago) is not true. It does not even need to be explained. This leads to the point where science does have the tools to refute ideas presented in language/religion, no matter how eloquent they may be made, by experimentation and evidence. Though people may try to manipulate research through their presentation of it, they can not alter the evidence itself.
I am not expecting a reply to that second paragraph from you greenflag. It was just me writing some thoughts on why you can say creationism most certainly is not true without having to explain evolution or the big bang which both rely on theory. Observing light that was emitted millions of years ago is empirical irrefutable evidence that star existed millions of light years ago.
Are they not of the same British nation? Your ideas sound very ungodly. I may have to stone you.
Correction to the last line;
Observing light that was emitted millions of years ago is empirical irrefutable evidence that star existed millions of years ago.
Didn’t mean to type light in at the third last world. Silly me, changing a unit of time to a unit of distance with my carelessness. It made as much sense as creationism.
As an ungodly non christian I will of course have no compunction in returning your stoning with a return stoning plus a smiting as per Leviticus .
‘
Are they not of the same British nation?
Immaterial -a slave is a slave is a slave . Cows bulls and calves but cattle one and all as Milchu would say when he dragged a few slaves off the boat following a successful raid . History tells us that those Britons can make treacherous slaves .One of them was brought here about 1,500 years ago -called himself Patricius I believe . Anyway the bugger escaped and then came back a few years later and caused untold havoc persuading our previously mathematically adept chieftains that one God was no longer one God but it could include three gods including the first God . I mean three in one I ask you .I suppose it’s all in the marketing skills . Still his innovative selling point of the three leaf in one shamrock to old King Laoghaire was a world class con job worthy of a latter day Bernie Madoff . We’d have burned him at the stake as a heretic but we were then ignorant of the later Christian fire ritual as the best means of dealing with malcontents , free thinkers and heretics .
Gotta hand it those Christians though -they really knew how to set a heretic on fire in their day. Old Leviticus was a wimp in comparison eh
?
Newton was a creationist!!
Les, “a very complex process”. that just happened by chance?? 4 million years ago. I take it scientists have found date tags to “prove” these dates are correct. An awful lot of assumptions and faith involved in evolutionary science. But what would I know? What right would a goat herder like me have to point anything out to some clever monkeys??
Poor ‘platform’ piece in the News Letter (Thursday) from David McConaghy – supposedly of the Caleb Foundation in support of the minister’s comments.
Would this be the same Mr McConaghy who is oft quoted in the Portadown Times as Chairman of the DUP in Upper Bann ? And pictured in various election campaign stuff ?
For my two sents – there is acessible material/preechings on creationism/christianity every Sunday in churches – for accessible understandable complex scientific material most museums excel.
It’s always going to be a trickly balance – but explaining the relevance of the Orange Order would be eye opening
This “inclusiveness” is in fact a trojan horse for creationism.Thats the real goal here for Nelson and his cohorts(shhh Mervyn Storey et all).And when challenged by a man of science like Richard Dawkins on the Nolan Show,Nelson plays the victim and says dont pick on me for my beliefs in magic,myth,you only understand factual evidence for life on earth.Stick to what you know Nelson,you are not a scientist and so keep yer mitts off our museums.Dont pray in our museums and we wont think in your church.
Finally getting to respond to the “Artsy Crowd in the Catherdal Quarter” as i too would be one of them. Certainly i’ve had a pint or two with one of their photographers but the CQ is too left field for the Tatler imo. As for the publically funded bit would you much rather that the thriving community down there is replaced with binge drinking stag and hen parties ala Templebar or would you rather it was as it is with crime figures that confound the local PSNI commander because they are so low(that said there has of late been a slight rise in crimes against businesses).
I think the Museum would be quite right to display a Narwahls tusk telling visitors that people used to believe it was from a Unicorn, in the same way that some folks believe in fairies, others that the earth was/is flat and that it was created in just 6 days.
As for the Orange Order it is still in existence and has an Orange Fest yearly which gets good coverage on the 12th and they have the Museum at Schomberg House which will tell you all you need to know about it then and now.
I really think this was an insidious attempt by the Minister to influence the Museum when their budgets are being discussed and there are massive cuts to publically funded projects across the board on the way.
And as for the Ulster Scots dialect malarky how come, at the unveiling of Ross Wilson’s statue ‘Millie’ on the corner of Cambrai St and the Crumlin Rd,a fella from their Agency stood up to say how happy the agency was to be involved with the Statue etc etc and he didn’t speak ONE word of the dialect. The migration of people is certainly of historical note…the
languagedialect is not.Amazes me the secular fascist hysteria on here trying to stop any alternative view of science being advanced.
Evolution is not science – it is not falsifiable. Interesting theory but cannot be proven as the conditions required to test it are not ascertainable again. Please do not cite Newton, Kepler, Maxwell as purveyors of secularism as all were radical Theists who would have stood shoulder to shoulder with McCausland and would have looked at Dawkins with horror.
Interesting article that should keep some of you humble here in your atheistic rantings:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/28/AR2010052801856.html
Seems not all (even the majority of scientists) enbraces the rantings of Dawkins and his fanclub here.
A little knowledge…….eh
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-starlight-prove
I disagree with Dawkins on many issues including creation, but I will give him credit for realising where the battle is. He quite rightly sees that if you knock away the first eleven chapters of the Bible that the Christian faith is pointless. After all, if there was no Adam to sin then there was no need for Jesus to atone for sin. Perhaps it’s time the Christian church could see the big picture. I make no apology for being a Christian or a creationist. There are many Christian scientists including former evolutionist and atheist Dr Walter Veith and Dr John Baumgardner, who is widely acknowledged as having developed the world’s leading three dimensional computer model of plate techtonics, the preeminent theory of the earth’s outer structure.
Scentists all have the same evidense to examine but their conclusions will depend on their world view either Biblical or secular. I always think that if the Scriptures said that in the beginning there was a big bang and that after millions of years man evolved from an apelike creature it would be considered ridiculous!
We would be the poorer without characters like Nelson to give us a laugh now and again. What a duller place N. I. would be without them.
However, on a slightly more serious note, if the Ulster Museum is giving us a social history of “Ulster” then he has a point. I have only had a fleeting visit to the “new” museum so I’m not sure what is covered. I assume that this social history will include the genocide against the native people by the English in the 16th century and the cleansing of the country to make way for the new immigrants from England and Scotland.
After Nelson has sorted out the museum I should think his next task is to take on the N. I. Tourist Board [ for which I think he has responsibility] and do something about their ridiculous claim that the only World Heritage site in N. I. – the Giants Causeway – had its origins 60 million years ago. Finn McCool deserves to get proper recognition for his efforts.
[...] fundamentalist campaign group, the Caleb Foundation, were claiming that NI Culture Minister Nelson McCausland’s intervention at the Ulster Museum was as a direct result of their lobbying.On Evening Extra today, a [...]
Markyboy
I am only seeing this link today, what a sad excuse this is.
[...] the Museum and trustees spend the prize as they wish or does the Minister for Culture & Arts Nelson McCausland have the final say so? Tags: Belfast, Nelson McCausland, Northern Ireland, Ulster Museum, Ulster [...]
Dare I point out that the Deputy prime minister of the United Kingdom is looking for laws to repeal?
Without going so far as to suggest the Act of Union of 1801, the Administration of Justice (Language) Act (Ireland) is, so far as I can tell, in the Westminster area of responsibility.
Would the Unionists in the house sleep easier if we labelled An Gaeilge “Gaelic” rather than “Irish”?….seeing as many of the plantationers came from Earra Gaidheal…which was still at least breac-Gaeltacht last time I looked.
http://yourfreedom.hmg.gov.uk/restoring-civil-liberties/administration-of-justice-language-act-ireland-1737/idea-view