Slugger O'Toole

Conversation, politics and stray insights

Question for Unionist politicians: Do you support the Orange Order’s anti Papal protest?

Thu 25 March 2010, 2:03am

There has long been a name for Catholics who graze on the parts of the Church’s theology they like, whilst disavowing the bits they don’t. Judging by the reactions I was privy to after Mass on Sunday, the bits many don’t like are getting larger with each Sunday that passes… But one reader draws my attention to this statement from the Orange Order and its protest at the visit of the Pope to Britain. Which I guess poses a question for those members of the main political parties (not least the UUP/Conservative alliance) who belong to the Orange as to whether or not they sign up to the sentiments of the protest or not?

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Comments (79)

  1. Pigeon Toes (profile) says:

    “There has long been a name for Catholics who graze on the parts of the Church’s theology they like, whilst disavowing the bits they don’t.”

    Mick you were at Mass?

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  2. alan56 (profile) says:

    OO have lost the plot on this. Even if they cite religious issues for their dislike for the Pope, this decision shows either they don’t understand or else do not care how this will play with the media and general public both here and abroad. Not only do the fall into ‘traps’ laid for them it now seems they are looking for holes to jump into. There must be some people in the OO who are aghast at this decision.

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  3. granni trixie (profile) says:

    Yes Mick – you were at Mass – there has
    to be a story.

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  4. joeCanuck (profile) says:

    C’mon. There were lots at Mass on Sunday, eagerly awaiting a grovelling apology for Il Papa, and a promise to reveal the offenders.

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  5. wee buns (profile) says:

    Has the OO pulled this before? Seems OTT even for the OO.

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  6. Pigeon Toes (profile) says:

    “C’mon. There were lots at Mass on Sunday.

    No shit Sherlock…

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  7. Alias (profile) says:

    The British state has already done away with democratic opposition in your puppet parliament, and others who oppose the state are harassed by it, with the citizens brainwashed into colluding with the repression of their collective freedoms. The OO has the right to oppose the proposed visit just as others have the right to support it. The day the rights of the latter are allowed to overrule the rights of the former is the day that you need to seriously consider immigration to a freer, less-statist society.

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  8. John says:

    Apparently Rev. Alistair Smyth steamrollered the statement through with the help of the Free Presbyterian Moderator, Rev. Ron Johnston, whilst looking over his shoulder at the fundamentalist group Orange Reformation.

    A number of Grand Chaplains, one of which was the Senior Grand Chaplain, voiced their opposition to the statement, and called for a spirit of generosity, toleration and moderation. They proposed a more moderate statement, which highlighted the freedoms enjoyed by all, celebrated the contribution of Protestantism, appealed for people to live in peace with one another for the common good, and even prayed for “the good estate of the Catholic Church”. http://ernestlong.blogspot.com/2010/03/statement-on-state-visit-of-pope.html

    However, Rev Alistair Smyth rejected their call and opted for a hardline approach.

    Also, Rev. Alistair Smyth wanted the Scottish and English Orange Order to support the statement, but the Scottish Orange Order refused. This left the Irish Order isolated and vulnerable but Rev. Alistair Smyth and Rev. Ron Johnston stubbornly decided to go it alone without the support of the Scottish and English Orders, in the hope of appeasing Orange Reformation.

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  9. Alias (profile) says:

    emigrating* ;-)

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  10. Dec (profile) says:

    Which I guess poses a question for those members of the main political parties (not least the UUP/Conservative alliance) who belong to the Orange as to whether or not they sign up to the sentiments of the protest or not?

    Not sure why – it seems to be to be a perfectly logical position to adopt in a country where a catholic cannot become head of state. And yet, we’re the mono-ethnic ones.

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  11. John says:

    So basically, from what I’m hearing its been a sop to Orange Reformation.

    http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/Group-calls-for-opposition-to.5729936.jp

    http://www.orangereformation.co.uk/default.htm

    Orange Reformation 1 Orange Order 0

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  12. wild turkey (profile) says:

    with respect to all the commentators above

    why do we not attempt to practice, AND IMPLEMENT, the procedures of international jurisprudence

    in 1999 while resident in london, a extradation warrant was successfully served on Pinochet.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/468589.stm

    given pope benny’s proposed visit to the uk might something similiar not be appropriate?

    http://www.slate.com/id/2248557/

    Let us appeal to reason rather than prejudice and blind faith.

    let us all cherish, and protect, our childrens past, present and future.

    if the walls do come tumbling down, it ain”t the first time it occured

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  13. joeCanuck (profile) says:

    John,
    Much appreciate that “insider” info you gave us.

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  14. wild turkey (profile) says:

    “Here’s a little thought experiment on practical ethics. Suppose that you are having a drink with a new acquaintance and the subject of law-breaking comes up. “Ever been in any trouble with the authorities?”
    Print This ArticlePRINTDiscuss in the FrayDISCUSSEmail to a FriendE-MAILGet Slate RSS FeedsRSSShare This ArticleRECOMMEND…Single PageSINGLE PAGE
    Yahoo! Buzz
    Facebook FacebookPost to MySpace!MySpaceMixx MixxDigg DiggReddit RedditDel.icio.us del.icio.usFurl FurlMa.gnolia.com Ma.gnoliaSphere SphereStumble UponStumbleUponCLOSE

    You may perhaps mention your arrest at a demonstration, your smuggling of excess duty-free goods, that brush with the narcotics people, that unwise attempt at insider trading. Your counterpart may show a closer acquaintance with the criminal justice system. He once did a bit of time for forgery, or for robbery with a touch of violence, or for a domestic dispute that got a bit out of hand. You are still perhaps ready to have lunch next Friday. But what if he says: “Well, I once knew a couple who trusted me as their baby sitter. Two little boys they had—one of 12 and one of 10. A good bit of fun I had with those kids when nobody was looking. Told them it was our secret. I was sorry when it all ended.” I hope I don’t seem too judgmental if I say that at this point the lunch is canceled or indefinitely postponed.

    And would you feel any less or any more revulsion if the man went on to say, “Of course, I wasn’t strictly speaking in any trouble with the law. I’m a Catholic priest, so we don’t bother the police or the courts with that stuff. We take care of it ourselves, if you catch my meaning”?

    Yet this is exactly what we are forced to read about every day. The happiness and the health of countless children was systematically destroyed by men who could count on their clerical bosses to shield them from legal retribution and, it seems, even from moral condemnation.”

    Christopher Hitchens, Slate 22 March 2010

    Who are the clerical bosses?
    Should they be held to accountable to ‘secular’ justice?
    If yes, how?
    If no, why?

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  15. I think the visit should be protested against too. Just not for the same reasons as the OO.

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  16. joeCanuck (profile) says:

    1967,

    I quite like wild turkey’s hint of a crusading Judge, somewhere, initiating a European arrest warrant for, say, obstruction of justice.

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  17. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Who cares what the OO think anyway ? An angry, noisy strongly disrespectful protest by self-respecting catholics wouldn’t be inappropriate. Perhaps it’s not inconceivable either. Who knows, there might be quite a bit of jostling, what with the pressure for space with the commonsense humanist protesters and all….

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  18. joeCanuck,

    Me too, like an inverted Inquisition. No one would expect that!

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  19. One day Davey Cameron will probably sit down in an interview and tell us all honestly what in the name Jehovah he was thinking when he tried to represent his party as modern and inclusive whilst simultaneously entering into an electoral pact with the UUP who are stuck in the past and sectarian.

    In the meantime we can only marvel that in these days of focus groups, spin and preoccupation with presentation he managed to get it so spectaculalry wrong.

    Protocol warning: Please adjust your mindset
    For those of a particulalry tribal and/or sensitive disposition and those unable to judge an arguement on it’s merits please be aware that the term Unionist in my name is not an accurate reflection of my political views though it should also be noted that my paternal grandfather was a keen supporter of the Union and I am invoking the FIFA grandparent rule and am opting to call myself so. (I’m sure he would have approved.)

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  20. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    Plus ça change (plus c’est la même chose).

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  21. I first read the headline as “the Orange Order’s anti-Paypal protest” – and wondered if they had had their account frozen.

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  22. wild turkey (profile) says:

    from the from page of the New York Times 25.03.2010

    “Top Vatican officials — including the future Pope Benedict XVI — did not defrock a priest who molested as many as 200 deaf boys, even though several American bishops repeatedly warned them that failure to act on the matter could embarrass the church, according to church files newly unearthed as part of a lawsuit.
    Europe (March 25, 2010)

    The internal correspondence from bishops in Wisconsin directly to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the future pope, shows that while church officials tussled over whether the priest should be dismissed, their highest priority was protecting the church from scandal. ”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/25/world/europe/25vatican.html?hp

    As far as american states go, Wisconsin is fairly progressive, and a warrant compelling the Pope to testify in this case is, at least a theoretical, possibility.

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  23. Non Orangeman says:

    Now the croppies are telling the Orange order to lie down. The OO have a right to express their opinions in a Democracy. Plenty of groups will be opposing the Pope’s visit for all kinds of different reasons – some from within the RC Church itself. I hope that if the Pope can help the British Police with their enquiries re any child abuse matters in Northern Ireland after his meeting with the Irish Bishops, that he will ring the Confidential Helpline from a public phone box and do so.

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  24. Comrade Stalin (profile) says:

    NO,

    The OO do have the right to express their opinions and people have the right to oppose the Pope’s visit.

    The problem is that a certain political party, which says it wants to attract Catholic votes and create new, non-sectarian politics, is led by OO members. You cannot ride two horses.

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  25. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    CS

    That is the case in a nutshell. It is also what binds a lot of agnostic and secular criticism of the Pope et al i.e. the desire not to be seen as a sectarian knucklehead.

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  26. Keithbelfast (profile) says:

    Comrade, I fundamentally disagree with you on this one – http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38773000/jpg/_38773809_horses_reuters.jpg

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  27. ding dong (profile) says:

    Not sure whether I agree with the reason the OO are calling for demostartions, but I could understand those abiused by catholic priests doing so.

    I am however somewhat bemused by what might be considered double standards – israel misuse passports and has a diplomat expelled – quiet rightly so.

    Catholic church see its clery abuse hundreds of children (thoughout Ireland & UK) covers up the abuse (throughout Ireland & UK) the former Cardninal Ratzinger endorses/proposes the cover cover up policy and he gets a semi state visit – explain that one?

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  28. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    DD

    You make good points but we all know that the resistance to a papal visit by the OO is just a sectarian knee jerk response. I am uncomfortable with this popes visit for the reason’s you stated but we had Putin shake Brenda’s hand for heaven’s sake! So yes the cost of doing business is talking to people you may have issues with.

    The trouble with the extremists in the OO is that not only have they the bigotry they have a religious underpinning which will endorse there mindset and hereticise any criticism.

    As Hitchens Say “Religion Poison’s everything”

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  29. daisy (profile) says:

    Most absurd protest ever (which is saying something in this place).

    On Radio Ulster this morning when the OO rep was asked about protests and the possibility of violence he claimed that anyone who was not charitable to their Catholic neighbours was nothing to do with the OO. Hmm. Light fuse, stand back… Typical.

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  30. granni trixie (profile) says:

    The insensitivity of the Vatican knows no bounds! In the midst of the finger at last pointing at them as key players in child abuse/coverup, they chose to generate a feel good factor through an unprecedented visit by the Pope! And the ridiculous spectacle of wall to wall TV coveage about Francis Campbell, his rep. It will take more than a PR exercise for good will to be restored.

    This same old,sameold, OO thing muddies the water. Let people unite when the Pope arrives in Britain to vocalise their views on the moral issue of child abuse,coverups,lack of action.

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  31. Rory Carr (profile) says:

    I couldn’t help but notice that the reaction of some rationalists here to Mick’s attendance at Mass was not so far removed from the Orange Order’s reaction to the Pope’s visit.

    Intolerance towards the spiritual practices of others it would seem is not confined to the fundamentalist right.

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  32. Neil (profile) says:

    Another international PR coup by the Orange Order. And all that ‘right to protest’ bullshit goes right out the window as soon as someone mentions Wootton Bassett, sometimes the right to be left in peace counts for something.

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  33. Rory Carr (profile) says:

    If we all have a mass protest against the Orange Order’s sectarian protest at the Pope’s visit we could invite the Pope to join us. And William Rees-Mogg.

    Now wouldn’t that be fun?

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  34. Seimi (profile) says:

    Instead of a mass protest, what about a protest mass? And the Pope could give it!

    Wouldn’t that be even more fun!? :)

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  35. ding dong (profile) says:

    THe OO makes itself yet again an easy target and deserve no mercy – but are we happy that the time is right for the pope to be accorded a semi state visit in the context of what the catholic church locally and worldwide has condoned and covered up?

    While the OO reasons may be strange to many – should we not take the opportunity and discuss the central issue.

    Is it right for the head of the catholic church to be welcomed in Britain while there remains so many unanswered questions particularly about the churches responsibities to the state and observance of state law?

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  36. Greenflag (profile) says:

    The OO have every right to protest against the Pope’s visit as has any other group. Unfortunately any OO protest against the papacy would have all the moral credibility of a group of nazis protesting at Stalin’s atrocities . The OO is an organisation that needs to reform itself before it will be listened to by others assuming of course that it gives a damn one way or the other about how the OO is perceived by non members.

    But well done the UK for expelling an Israeli diplomat . Why has’nt Ireland done the same ? After all the Israeli Government also abused ‘Irish’ state sovereignty? No prizes for guessing how the Israeli Government would react if Irish Government officials were seen to have forged or stolen /copied Israeli passports and issued them to Gazans or Palestinians for nefarious purposes.

    Given the Israeli ‘addiction’ to retaliation in excess – Irish people might get to experience a ‘phosphorous ‘bomb’ first hand ;(

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  37. wee buns (profile) says:

    Giving Irish passports away in Galway….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNlvpdzPKBc

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  38. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    Can I just say as an Orangeman i’m totally embarassed by this statement, whilst I might have some concerns about the visit I think “demonstrating” against it is stupid and counter productive, here is the statement as published on the GOLI website,

    “While we recognise the civil and religious rights of all, we cannot welcome or agree with the visit of the Pope to this country.

    The Pope claims himself to be the vicar of Christ on earth, a title which assumes supreme and universal supremacy both in honour and jurisdiction over all – church, state, the world. Any who would welcome him are in danger of appearing to acknowledge his primacy and universal supremacy in all of these matters.

    We take this opportunity to call on all the people of our land to examine the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments, especially on the matter of eternal salvation, and to see that the teaching of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church is at total variance with the Biblical message that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

    We therefore call on all the citizens of the United Kingdom, and especially members of the Loyal Orange Institution, to demonstrate their opposition to the Pope’s visit to England and Scotland, and to oppose any future invitation to visit Northern Ireland. At the same time, we call on all members of the Loyal Orange Institution to refrain from any uncharitable acts or sentiments against our Roman Catholic fellow countrymen. Furthermore, we urge all members of the Institution to examine their own relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, to make sure that they have a saving faith in Him.

    Finally, we encourage all our members to pray for a visitation to our land, not by the vicar of Christ, the holy father, as the Pope claims himself to be, but by the Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, that both Protestant and Roman Catholic, as well as others from whatever background, may be brought to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, the only mediator between God and man.”

    Its a sloppy preachy contrived statement, and by cramming in a wee bit of “the gospel” tries to disguise its hysteria, basically I can see the finger prints of the Free Ps all over it.

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  39. daisy (profile) says:

    The unfortunate thing about the OO intervention is that it will overshadow any other debate about the Pope’s visit and have proven themselves to be dinosaurs (ironic given that they don’t do evolution). They’ve scored an own goal.

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  40. ding dong (profile) says:

    Greenflag -

    No issue with the expulsion of an Israeli diplomat because of the abuse of sovereighnty and I’m sure you would be at the forefront of call to protest against a state visit from the Israeli head of state.

    So lets follow the logic through – with clearly at least 60 years of evidence of abuse by the catholic church of both citizens and naional soveriegnty – should the pope be welcome or should his visit be opposed – even with protests?

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  41. daisy (profile) says:

    I would like to think that the current encumbent of the Vatican would face more protestors than supporters. I don’t think, however, that the naked sectarianism of the OO as portrayed on the radio this morning should be part of that protest.

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  42. granni trixie (profile) says:

    Drumlins Rock:
    I am in no doubt that the OO has a case to answer regards promoting sectarianism which fuelled the Troubles (but one of many elements).

    However few of us come to the table (of peace?) with clean hands and if IP, Marty, PR can be allowed space to change, I think that the OO is entitled to the same,infact I do believe they are being proactive in showing that they are changing. At the same time todays statement is an own goal and ill advised.

    I just heard someone on radio just now say that the press statement from OO had been delayed since Hillsborough to facilitate interests of “some politicans”. So who exactly is behind this backward step?

    I would love to see some leadership to get the OO out of the cornber into which they are painting themselves.

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  43. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    granni, I have no idea whats going on at Grand Lodge, It dosnt seen to reflect whats going on on the ground.

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  44. Keithbelfast (profile) says:

    “into which they are marching.”

    and I couldn’t agree more with #16. Daisy.

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  45. Greenflag (profile) says:

    ding dong ,

    ‘So lets follow the logic through – ‘

    Lets . Any Israeli Head of State is not likely to be ‘leader’ of the Roman Catholic Church worldwide . I personnally would oppose a visit of the British monarch to ROI on grounds of my opposition to the institution of monarchy per se -at the same time I would welcome her visit as the Head of State of the British people .

    Logic and religion don’t always go together some might say never and I’m one of the ‘some’ . The Pope as I understand it is not visiting Ireland or Northern Ireland at this time . He’s visiting England and perhaps Scotland . The UK ‘State’ ‘invited’ the Pope, so based on diplomatic standard operating procedure he should be welcomed officially by the authorities . Whether Britons either RC or non RC choose to welcome him is their business as is their right to ‘protest’ against his visit .

    I agree with Daisy above that the OO are ‘misfiring’ once again . As the victims of abuse are almost totally RC’s I believe protests by British RC’s will have much more credibility and more import than protest from a shower of troglodytes wearing bowler hats wearing sashes and indulging in funny walks beating drums .

    Good points though ding dong . I don’t expect a papal visit to Ireland from this Pope -perhaps from his successor assuming there are still few Catholics left in Ireland by that time .

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  46. Greenflag (profile) says:

    wee buns ,

    Good video :) Well done the protesters and shame on the Irish Government . Having been recently to Gaza as part of the EU observation team our Foreign Minister Mr Martin should have taken more robust action against the Israeli Government . I don’t know who those Galway protestors are but they deserve full marks for their stance.

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  47. joeCanuck (profile) says:

    As a Head of State he should be treated with the normal respect and courtesies. But people are allowed non-violent protest.
    Now, when leading politicians, Presidents, Prime Ministers etc visit China, they always bring up the issue of human rights abuses. At least N.A. ones do. Will the British leaders bring up the case of human rights abuses, mainly of children, by priests when they meet their ultimate Master?

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  48. Greenflag (profile) says:

    drumlin’s rock ,

    ‘GOLI website,’

    Suggested headline for the Telegraph

    Goli scores own Goal AGAIN ;)

    Good post above post 13 . Your embarassment is heard and does you no harm ;)

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  49. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    like the headline, very drole.

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  50. joeCanuck (profile) says:

    Drumlin’s Rock,

    You have mentioned before that the OO is a democratic organization with elections for officers every year. Are those contested with arguments or just pro-forma affairs; it’s Willie’s turn?

    Did your Da get any of the money?

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  51. Fiona McCarron says:

    Now where’s the logic in concluding Mick was at mass on Sunday after reading:

    “Judging by the reactions I was privy to after Mass on Sunday?”

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  52. Kilsally (profile) says:

    The Order is not seeking the Pope to be banned it is simply Protesting theologically in this 450th anniversary of the Reformation.

    The full statement from Grand Lodge can be read here:- http://www.orange-order.co.uk/chronicle/forum/viewtopic.php?id=20316

    Richard Dawkins the prominent scientist / atheist also seems to be supporting the Make The Pope Pay protest http://richarddawkins.net/articles/5024

    Prominent Gay rights activist Peter Tatchell has a petition on the 10 downing Street website:- http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ProtestthePope/

    The National Secular Society, British Humanist Association and various Gay Rights groups including Outrage and Stonewall are all protesting. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7012758.ece

    There is now a Protest The Pope website organised by various groups not including the Orange Order:- http://www.protest-the-pope.org.uk/

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  53. Kilsally (profile) says:

    Drumlins Rock – `Its a sloppy preachy contrived statement, and by cramming in a wee bit of “the gospel” tries to disguise its hysteria, basically I can see the finger prints of the Free Ps all over it.` ……Erm it mentions the Gospel becuase the Order is a Protestant fraternity. The Qualifiactions of an Orangeman which are to be read at the start of every lodge meeting say:

    “An Orangeman should have a sincere love and veneration for his Heavenly Father;

    A humble and steadfast faith in Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, believing in Him as the only Mediator between God and man.”

    Last years resolutions read:
    “As members of the Loyal Orange Institution we declare ourselves to be a Christian organisation, which embraces cultural, social and political aspects. Our Christian foundation is supreme and on this foundation these other aspects rest. It behoves us never to forget that Jesus Christ is the chief corner stone on which our Institution is built……………..

    Let us get back to the simple purity of Christ’s teaching and example; back to the evangelising spirit of our forefathers; back to the basics of our Protestant Reformed Evangelical faith; back to the reviving power of the Cross of Christ that was so powerfully evidenced here in Ulster in the Year of Grace 1859.”

    http://grandorangelodge.co.uk/press/12th_resolutions/2009.html

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  54. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    Think he gets a wee bit, its seems there was a policy that if you did not withdraw your interest at the end of the year it was reinvested as a “loan” rather than “shares” so many of those under the £20K will get a wee bit, but probably jsut a few hundred at best, ie. someone with £10K who had it in at 6% for 2 years say would get about 150 quid roughly.

    Basically they are Pro-forma, at worst some officers are in the job for life, and the postion is viewed as hereditiry! but increasingly a fixed term of between 2 and 5 yrs is becoming common. Annually all offices are open for any proposal from the floor, only rarely are there multiple nominations.

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  55. Rory Carr (profile) says:

    Hah! This should be fun – the Orange Order, Peter Tatchell, Outrage and Stonewall all marching together.

    Makes you wonder what goes on at those all-male meetings at the lodge.

    Isn’t there something you should be telling us, boys?

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  56. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Kilsally

    If the belief is that the Nazarene is the only Mediator between God and man what is the orange order for please ?

    Also, from a religious point of view, why not ‘cut out the middle man’ of Christ as mediator and just have a direct line to ‘God’ instead – is he/it not interested in or available for a one to one relationship with his flock ?

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  57. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    Kilsally, sorry if I maybe put it over wrong, I fully agree with the gospel statement, and thats what annoyed me most, by putting it along side the call to snub the Pope and openly demonstate against his visit undermines the message completly and makes it harder for those of us trying to reach out to our nieghbours with the same message.

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  58. Kilsally (profile) says:

    surely if you read the statement again it does tell us to look at outselves and also to reach out to are fellow RC countrymen?

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  59. Kilsally (profile) says:

    Seosamh913 `If the belief is that the Nazarene is the only Mediator between God and man what is the orange order for please ? ` The Order is a fraternity not a Church, it simply keeps to general Reformed Theology. However you are quite correct, there is no `need` for it as such just as there is no need as such for a `church congregation` or a `priest / minister /pastor`.

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  60. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Kilsally

    Thanks; and my second point ? If there’s no need for a mediator then why adopt one – Christ ?

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  61. Kilsally (profile) says:

    1 Timothy 2:5
    For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

    Hebrews 9:15
    And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

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  62. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Kilsally

    …but aren’t we told by some that in effect the two are the same being/entity/person ? If Jesus isn’t God then why is he worshipped or his words (very few if any of them ever having been recorded, bear in mind) revered ?

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  63. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    Christ is God, therefore when you pray to him you pray to God, and quite often during prayer we can switch from addressing Christ to Addressing God the Father, there is no difference, however the mediation that Christ preformed was a once and for all action on the cross, it need not and cannot be repeated but was essential that one time.

    And Kilsally it does tell us that, right after telling us to protest against them, by putting the two together it only harms the gospel message.

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  64. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Drumlin Rocks/Kilsally

    Why was it necessary in the first place (assuming it happened at all) ? Where not such ills as the crucifixion ‘cured’ not themselves created by God in the first place ? Ought we not to be suspicious of the will/intentions of any entity that demanded that his only son (..he was in effect his own son ?) that he kill himself ? if so, why should we be impressed by this, still less grateful for it which is what christianity appears to require of us ?

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  65. Drumlins Rock (profile) says:

    Watch the film AI, might get the idea.

    lol,

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  66. Alan N/Ards (profile) says:

    You couldn’t make this stuff up! Totally unbelieveable… a discredited OO complaining about a discredited RC church. Both of these organisations need a reformation. The leadership of both need to be shown the door asap. Let the ordinary decent catholics who are disgusted by the behaviour of the leadership of their church( including Ratzinager) do the protesting. The OO are just going to embarrass the true born again believers in NI once again. Why any born again believer is in the OO is beyond me? Come out from among them! How many christians are in the OO? At a guess I would say 2/3%. That says it all doesn’t it.

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  67. Greenflag (profile) says:

    Alan N /Ards ,

    ‘a discredited OO complaining about a discredited RC church. ‘

    Well said . Pot kettle and black come to mind . I can think of other organisations /institutions on this and the neighbouring island who have failed miserably to adapt to modern times . Admittedly none have ‘failed’ as successfully as the RC Church and the OO . The UUP are almost ‘brilliant’ adapters in comparison ;)

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  68. Paddy (profile) says:

    Kilsally contradicted himself before i had a chance to quote those well know scriptural pieces at him.
    Another guy says Christians are a minuscule part of the OO. Quite right. But clerics in the self sstyled Church of Ireland are a major component and Drumcree Church was used as the staging point to kill Catholics during the Garvaghy Road siege.

    As regards the attacks on Catholicism by the Combat 18 crew here: I think of Pascal’s wise words. Your attacks would have credence if you knoew what you were talking about. But you don’t even know your own “religion”.

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  69. cut the bull says:

    after giving full coverage to this statement on Good Morning Ulster this morning and giving it a half hour on Talk back.

    The BBC seemed to pull this story as it dissapeared into thin air and was not covered on either the lunchtime or 6.30 news.

    I found this interesting as any journalist worth his salt would have been pushing this story asking those are members of the OO and hold jobs as MLA’s and positions as ministers in the executive what exactly their views were on this statement.

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  70. cut the bull says:

    was this an attempt bt the NIO to give the news story a poilitical massage and not rock the status quo.

    The failure to cover this on television news was a failure on the BBC’s behalf.

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  71. granni trixie (profile) says:

    Cut the bull: what you say is consistent with a point I made earlier – on radio Brian Kellaway claimed that this statement was ready to go before Hillsborough,but delayed as it would embarrass “certain politcians”.

    Media journalists have a case to answer. Maybe a proper investigative journalist will follow up?

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  72. Lionel Hutz (profile) says:

    I have no problem with anyone protesting against the pope for a variety of reasons but to go further and suggest he should not be allowed to visit is too far. It’s sectarian nonsense. The OO will die out because of actions like this

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  73. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    The Orange Order and the BNP I suppose it is only a matter of time.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8588952.stm

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  74. Neil (profile) says:

    Good on the order. On a roll, keep up the good work. They’re a savvy bunch wha?

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  75. Seosamh913 (profile) says:

    Be much better if the bonehead deadbeat bowler hat wearers were vastly outnumbered by other catholic, protestant and commonsense dissenter protesters with more worthwhile bases for protesting against the arrival of Herr Ratzinger and what he represents than the boring boors from Diamond Danville.

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  76. Driftwood (profile) black spot says:

    That’s a real PR coup for the OO. Standing for the BNP.

    I just hope the local politcians move to unequivocally condemn it or there will be blood.

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  77. Kilsally (profile) says:

    Standing for the BNP is down to the individual member, the BNP is a legal political party, although not one i agree with or would vote for, although I do agree with some of their policies (notably it is mostly Labour votes and Labour constituencies they are taking not Tory votes). Whilst this is in England and under the Grand Lodge of Englands jurisdiction the Grand Lodge of Ireland has issued several statements in recent years condemning racism and racist attacks not to mention having members of the Ghana, Togo and Mohawk lodges parading with them.

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  78. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    Kisally

    Are you are joking, if you repudiate racism you distance yourself from people standing for racist parties. Northern Ireland politicians are used to saying free speech when bile and hate against minorities is their common creed. Sadly they are not used to being held accountable for those views when the outcry occours. The Orange Order has to decide whether it wants to be legal organisation obeying the rules and codas of a modern democracy or a racist sectarian rump dreaming about the protestant ascendency and makinh NI a laughing stock. Defending your culture acceptable when that culture is based on racism and sectarianism.

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  79. apollo293867 (profile) says:

    Sorry meant to say

    Defending your culture IS NOT acceptable when that culture is based on racism and sectarianism.

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