Cleaning up the Augean stables with a feather-duster
In responding to the crimes of its clergy, the Vatican has chosen to operate at an almost unimaginable level of triviality. First of all the Irish bishops fly over to Rome and MEET THE POPE. Then the Pope announces that is going to WRITE A LETTER.I’m reminded of a passage from Sir Walter Scott’s novel COUNT ROBERT OF PARIS.
“Notwithstanding this derangement of his most sacred time, our imperial
father, who had postponed the ceremony of disrobing, so important were the
necessities of the moment, continued, until deep in the night, to hold a
council of his wisest chiefs, men whose depth of judgment might have saved
a sinking world, and who now consulted what was to be done under the
pressure of the circumstances in which they were now placed. And so great
was the urgency, that all ordinary observances of the household were set
aside, since I have heard from those who witnessed the fact, that the royal
bed was displayed in the very room where the council assembled, and that
the sacred lamp, called the Light of the Council, and which always burns
when the Emperor presides in person over the deliberations of his servants,
was for that night — a thing unknown in our annals — fed with unperfumed oil!!”
The fair speaker here threw her fine form into an attitude which expressed
holy horror, and the hearers intimated their sympathy in the exciting cause
by corresponding signs of interest…..
Mick works in mysterious ways.
By cherry pick I meant that you make it sound as if priests can abstain from sex sometimes,not that they are expected to go for it all the time (ie a lifetimes abstinence).
You appear to be suggesting that my views are ill informed. I used to be really into religiosity but began to find it such a struggle to remain with a church which seemed so basically hypocritical and fell far short of my ideals.
And this was before these scandals were publicised.
So I may be out of date but you know what – I honestly cant be bothered to look up your refs.
Seosamh – a simple google on church attendance in Ireland produced this among many.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1102/1224257901174.html
I feel like a biology teacher ,Trixie . But I’ll try and explain this as simply as I can.
John Doe, before he goes away for the priesthood can have had sex with a woman and so he is no longer a virgin. …ok so far???
Now he decides to become a priest. The Church has no difficulty with this. So now John Doe gets trained and ordained and he is a priest but not a virgin. Do you follow this Trixie.
If you are still having difficulties {though I have tried to explain as simply as I can]. check out the definition of ‘Virginity’ and ‘celibacy’ on an online dictionary, they are not the same thing. I think this is were you are getting confuses.
padraig
Not sure where you’re coming from here. I haven’t dropped any claims, nor am I moving goalposts. I would say that you seem to tire very easily and have not produced a single shred of evidence supporting the ridiculous belief claims upheld by the catholic church or identified any actually purpose for some of its core rituals or any tangible benefits arising out of them.
Perhaps your lack of enthusiasm to engage is indicative of a less than full understanding of all of this on your part. Based on your responses so far though I’m more inclinded to the view that what it actually demonstrates is that deep down you don’t actually wholeheartedly believe them yourself. If so, I would welcome this and feel it’s best that you acknowledge it.
Thanks
[b]so it figures it will survive this too (and it will). [/b]
Agreed, it has survived, is surviving it and will continue to survive it.
Yes Granni – do not bother – just wallow in self imposed ignorance
Padraig:
“I wonder why all our posts appear to be in bold now???”
You did not lock off the bold coding in one of your comments. It’s been fixed now.
So of them only lose their virginity after they join the priesthood. But at least Bishop Casey resigned instantly (or, at any rate, fled the State instantly), whereas this lot seem to have become infected with FF-itus (a contagious condition that never goes away).
Coll Ciotach
Thanks for this, I would say that it seems to me unlikely that the weekly attendance numbers would have been lower than this, say 5 or 10 years ago. Happy to be contradiucted on that if there are reliable figures avilable though ?
Seosamh – what are reliable? as a certain P Pilate once observed – “What is the truth” – yet the Truth was staring him in the face.
Coll
I mean reliable in the generally accepted meaning of that word – worthy of reliance or trust, conforming to fact and therefore worthy of belief. I am not saying that the figures you linked to are not reliable, my point on comparable data of a reliable type over a period of time indicating any significant trend, one way or the other, on church attendance – that might be interesting.
What Truth was staring Pilate in the face incidentally ?
Christ
No need for that kind of language Coll Ciotach.
Every need for it –
Christ be with me, Christ within me,
Christ behind me, Christ before me,
Christ beside me, Christ to win me,
Christ to comfort and restore me.
Christ beneath me, Christ above me,
Christ in quiet, Christ in danger,
Christ in hearts of all that love me,
Christ in mouth of friend and stranger.
Coll: by St Columba (afaik), the exiled murderer. His life is a good example of penance and forgiveness.
Sorry guys you’re losing me here; what tangible need is being serviced by Christ exactly ? If there are any, can they not be satisfied with reference to our relationship to other human beings ?
The dove of the Church? I thought it was St Patrick but it really is a minor matter. What matters is the message
As I am not a theologian I am wide open to correction so I will attempt with my limitations to answer your question.
When we enter into Communion with Christ we establish a link between us and God our Creator which was destroyed when humanity attained the knowledge of good and evil. From that day we lost our automatic communion with God, as we were able to understand what was right and what was wrong – we could exercise that choice.
We become one with God.
If you want to learn more I would start with a good primer on Catholic Theology – perhaps something by Father John Laux
Coll
Can you put a date on the time when when humanity attained the knowledge of good and evil please ?
David Crooks @ 21 page 2 (and start of thread): I note your amended comments, and belatedly I’d say your comment ” the Vatican has chosen to operate at an almost unimaginable level of triviality” is quite OTT.
The Vatican has for some years now been making changes to its organisation to prevent this dreadful crime from recurring. Nearly all cases, even though some are just coming to light now, occurred around 20 to 30 years ago. And restitution is being made to the victims. And the perpetrators et al brought to justice.
The Catholic Church stables are being thoroughly cleaned. Note that Pope Benedict mentioned in his letter of further action to be taken this year.
Similar abuses that occurred in non-Catholic institutions are being revealed (listen to Radio 4 programme this afternoon). Perhaps in the near future the Catholic Church will be able to help non-Catholic institutions – by example and practicably – to eliminate paedophilia and other sexual abuses throughout our society, not just from within itself.
TellMeMa, just to correct a myth that you have been proffering on Slugger:
[i]Myth: Less than 1 percent of the clergy are involved in sexual abuse. Fact: 4,392 priests, or 4 percent of the total number of members of the Catholic clergy between 1950 and 2002, have had allegations made against them. [Editor’s note: As of the end of 2005, over 5,000 priests have been accused of abusing almost 13,000 minors.][/i]
The source is Thomas J. Reese, S.J., is editor in chief of America. That 4% – or 1 in 25 – is Catholic priests in America. If 4% of them had allegations of sex abuse against them substantiated, then the actual figure is substantially higher than 4% since not all victims make a complaint and not all complaints were substantiated.
So the actual figure is more likely to closer to 10%, or 1 in 10 priests that are sex abusers. The figure of 1 in 25, however, means that they are unfit as a group to have unsupervised access to childern.
Alias: my source is
Pedophiles and Priests: Anatomy of a Contemporary Crisis (Paperback) ~ Philip Jenkins (Oxford University Press, USA) and referred to paedophiles only, not other forms of sex abuse.
One review states:
Since 1982, 400 Catholic clergy (out of a total of 50,000 American priests) have been accused of sexual misconduct with minors. In this in-depth study, Jenkins, professor of history and religious studies at Pennsylvania State University, examines the circumstances surrounding the molestation charges that peaked in the early 1990s. He looks at such prominent cases as those of Father Bruce Ritter, founder of Covenant House, who was forced to resign in disgrace in 1990; and the notorious Rev. James Porter, who may have molested more than 100 children before he was convicted and sentenced to prison. Jenkins probes scandals in other religions; looks at the traditional “anti-Catholic” feelings in the U.S.; documents the media’s frenzied reactions to the charges; chronicles the feminist response to the allegations; and researches the financial drain on the Church caused by litigation (estimated to be in the hundreds of millions of dollars) as well as the debate surrounding recovered memory and repressed memory. Jenkins (Intimate Enemies) has written a thorough, academic study that convincingly challenges the popular estimate of the extent of pedophiles in the Church.
400 of 50,000 = 0.8%
Note: the author, Jenkins, is not a Catholic.
Jenkins’ facts are wrong. Thomas J. Reese cites his sources, and also shows how definitions are manipulated to give lower figures (e.g. hebephilia and paedophilia). If 51% of the substantiated allegations against Catholic priests involved children “between the ages of 11 and 14″ and the number of priests against whom allegations have been made is 4,392 (as of 2002), the figure for catholic priests in the US who are paedophiles is 2239 and not 400.
And here’s another myth:
[i]Myth: Most of the abuse occurred with older teenagers. Fact: Only 15 percent of the victims were 16 to 17 years of age; 51 percent were between the ages of 11 and 14.[/i]
By the way, whether the priest molests boys or girls, teens or preteens is not relevant. It is sinister apologetics to try to restrict the debate to paedophilia while ignoring the other classifications of sexual abuse committed by priests against children in order to create a false impression that priests are a lower risk sex abuser group than they actually are.
With 1 in 25 priests being substantiated sex offenders (and the actual figure being substantially higher), the appalling vista remains in full focus that this group is nor fit to have unsupervised access to children yet is allowed that access at the direct expense e of the children who are then abused by them.
http://www.reformation.com/
[i]If 51% of the substantiated allegations against Catholic priests involved children “between the ages of 11 and 14” and the number of priests against whom allegations have been made is 4,392 (as of 2002), the figure for catholic priests in the US who are paedophiles is 2239 and not 400.[/i]
Incidentally, this assumes that the ratio is one complainant to one priest. There is bound to be a margin of error in that.
Are you assuming that the priest only abuses one victim?
No seosamh I cannot say when the date was, and I know no one who can – do you?
That’s my point Coll, I think that it is your starting position which is false, illogical and incapable of withstanding acceptable standards of evidence.
Coll, let us leave this field to our opponents and they can argue amongst themselves, which I am afraid they will not find as interesting.
In a short time (a few weeks) they will see that the Catholic Church has not gone away, it has not lost its moral authority, etc etc, because they cannot see the Catholic Church in any wider perspective than the sins of paedophiles and other sex abusers.
Alias: on what basis have you decided that Jenkins is wrong? Have you done a proper statistical analysis? Have you checked all your sources? Or is it just that it does not agree with your already made-up opinion?
I think that research published by OUP and by a non-Catholic is a pretty reliable source.
Alias:
PS: I always qualified my 0.8% as paedophiles only but you probably missed that as you did not read my posts as thoroughly as you should have.
Seosamh – can you tell me when mankind developed the power of speech? just for example?
TelleMeMa
So the church hasn’t lost its moral authority then ? Breathtaking, I’ll grant you that.
Coll
I am sure that a qualified scientist could help you with the question, the point is one couldn’t with your earlier assertion re. good/evil, purely because it’s a nonsensical statement to make and depends on sun-worshipping stone-age fairytale thinking which requires an unacceptable and entirely false assumption that without religion there would not be any moral basis for human existence.