Cleaning up the Augean stables with a feather-duster
In responding to the crimes of its clergy, the Vatican has chosen to operate at an almost unimaginable level of triviality. First of all the Irish bishops fly over to Rome and MEET THE POPE. Then the Pope announces that is going to WRITE A LETTER.I’m reminded of a passage from Sir Walter Scott’s novel COUNT ROBERT OF PARIS.
“Notwithstanding this derangement of his most sacred time, our imperial
father, who had postponed the ceremony of disrobing, so important were the
necessities of the moment, continued, until deep in the night, to hold a
council of his wisest chiefs, men whose depth of judgment might have saved
a sinking world, and who now consulted what was to be done under the
pressure of the circumstances in which they were now placed. And so great
was the urgency, that all ordinary observances of the household were set
aside, since I have heard from those who witnessed the fact, that the royal
bed was displayed in the very room where the council assembled, and that
the sacred lamp, called the Light of the Council, and which always burns
when the Emperor presides in person over the deliberations of his servants,
was for that night — a thing unknown in our annals — fed with unperfumed oil!!”
The fair speaker here threw her fine form into an attitude which expressed
holy horror, and the hearers intimated their sympathy in the exciting cause
by corresponding signs of interest…..
The Catholic Church’s obsession with controlling all mattters pertaining to sexuality and reproduction has now led it to the brink of extinction in Ireland and this fannying about by the top brass just looks like the administering of the funeral rites.
The Freudian depths plumbed whilst ‘fannying about’ with matters pertaining to sexuality could certainly lead to extinction unless the rest of us carry on normally. What Freudian imagery surfaces from ‘depths plumbed whilst fannying about,’ Bad cess to Freud.
“First of all the Irish bishops fly over to Rome and MEET THE POPE.”
David, you’ve trivialised it more than you think! ‘and’? Should that not be ‘to’ – or ‘for to’, as they say in Moyle? Did they bump into the Pope in Ikea?
A papal encyclical has to count for more than a letter, lets not trivialise things.
Irish Exerocism:
Mother calls in devil to get the priest out of her son.
The amount of open sectarianism on slugger in recent days is astounding.
Moderate unionist (sic) – you may find child buggery funny but I dont. By the way its spelt exorcism.
Moderate? I dont think so – your mask has fallen.
As a church going Catholic I look to the Holy Father for spiritual guidance at this difficult time for our church.
Those who have been abused need our complete support – those who have sinned against God and our society need to be punished.
I will be at mass tomorrow with my wife and children – my faith in the church has been shaken but my faith has not.
west belfast
Doesn’t it occur to you that your faith may in fact be part of the problem rather than provide any component part of a solution here ? Also, re. your own faith, can you say a little more about where the contemporary church, as an institution, ends and your faith begins ?
Incidentally, regarding Moderate Unionist, it seems to me that you may be projecting a sectarian dimension onto what he/she is saying.
The feckers at the top of the Catholic Church in Ireland don;t have any clue at all as to how they are damaging their Institution drib by drab.
This today from them : “A church statement said the Cardinal understood the oaths would no longer be binding after the taking of witness evidence was complete.”
Fer crying out loud, someone should take the shovel away from them before they dig that hole too much deeper.
west belfast
The enemies of the church may be having a field day but it was the Church that gave them the ammunition. I’ll be happy with the Pope’s letter if the victims are happy with it. They are the only ones entitled to call it in my opinion and I will stand with them and their demands.
Quotation of the day from Christopher Hitchens:
The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime. Ratzinger himself may be banal, but his whole career has the stench of evil—a clinging and systematic evil that is beyond the power of exorcism to dispel. What is needed is not medieval incantation but the application of justice—and speedily at that.
This may interest a few:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLgdcGEqgcw
Henry94 – you are right – the church has brought this upon its self by its own actions but I cannot stand by while those who have nothing but distain for catholicism use the suffering of children as a veil for their sectarianism.
I also agree that the reaction of victims is paramount – but unlike you I will make my mind up based on my own thoughts.
Seosamh – Im sorry I really fail to see your point. Im sectarian because I dont laugh at a joke about child rape? Get real.
On your other point – the traditions of the church are very important to me – I have a lot to thank the catholic church for. My experience is of good men and women working in deprived communities and educating working class children who otherwise would have had a bleak future.
If you want to know what my faith is I suggest you read the Nicene creed.
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/history/nicene381.html
West belfast,
These days, would you leave your child alone in the company of a priest?
Perhaps if they poured petrol over themselves and struck a match….?
These days I wouldnt leave my children alone in the company of any adult – you included!
However these days we know a lot more than we did 10/20/30 years ago.
Can I ask would you leave your child alone with a Minister/Priest/GAA coach/football coach/teacher etc etc. I guess the answer is no.
To make it out that this is only a problem within the Catholic Church is VERY naive.
Another point iluvni – as a male adult with young children I would always make sure that I am not left alone with one of my childrens friends – wouldnt you? When I leave their friends home my children come with me and their friends sit in the back -all fathers will know what I am talking about.
That is the world we live in and we are all much more aware of what is required now. It is perhaps a little sad that this has to be the way but it is the right thing to do.
I don’t think it is a problem just within the Catholic Church but your assumption that you wont trust anyone is likewise barking mad
west belsfast,
I think it is a fair question to ask which profession is the least safe to leave your children with – and I’m afraid the answer, based on the evidence before us, is catholic priests .
But I agree that many will use this issue to attack Catholiciscm and the many excellent priests who have selflessly worked, North and South on behalf of children.
Cynic2 – I didnt say I wouldnt trust anyone – I can only assume you dont hav young children.
Moderate unionist – I think to make your first assumption is a very dangerous comment. Maybe you would have had a point 20 years ago but not now.
Agree with your second point – and I withdraw my comments on you I made earlier – sorry about that!
As a church going catholic I am unashamedly going to defend the countless good priests and others who have done nothing more than dedicate their lives to the faith.
west Belfast,
Has the Pope’s letter reassured you that things will change throughout the parishes of Ireland?
Whats the point of showing your face in church tomorrow if you arent, even all all the scandalous headlines, convinced the top man is committed to 100% transparency.
Iluvni
I believe th sincerity of the letter and very much welcome the impending visit from the Holy See administrators. That will send a shock wave through the Irish hierarchy which is long overdue.
I guess only time will tell but I will be at mass tomorrow to listen to not only the letter but to speak to my fellow catholics.
I also hope and pray that todays unprecedented letter is the beginning of a re-engagement with the faithful. I would like to see that culminate in a Papal visit where the Pope openly meets the victims and asks them for forgiveness. He should also invite the victims to Rome to show the world that the Church wants to reach out.
Do not underestimate the importance of this letter – I am not aware of anything like it happening before.
By the way I go to mass to keep holy the sabbath day and in my faith it is a sin not to do so.
West Belafst,
Until we have a proper understanding of why people are drawn to a vocation that is celibate then there must be at least a suspicion, given what has already unfolded, that it may somehow be related to their sexuality in some instances.
I’m not sure at what point and for what reason celibacy appeared in the church but the current pope could do worse than announce a review as, even if it is very unfair on many priests, I’m afraid celibacy and sexual deviance are probably now assumed by most people in Ireland to be inextricably linked.
Moderate Unionist
Im not sure I agree with the outworkings of your point although I do agree broadly that celibacy should be reviewed – not only because it MAY attract deviants (however Im not convinced it does any more than other areas) but also because so many good men have left the priesthood to get married etc.
Sexual abuse is a societal problem – not just a Catholic Church problem. However it is somehow much more shocking when it a priest who commits the crime. If, and it is still an if, the church truly learns and acts from the mistakes of the past then I believe it can again become a vehicle for moral integrity.
Todays letter is the beginning of that process not the end.
west Belfast,
What exactly do you expect the administrators from head office to achieve?
Can you honestly say you expect them to deliver up to the police, either side of the border, details of secret oaths signed by goodness knows how many victims and preptrators?
Secret oaths/goodness knows how many victims? Mask slipping?
To answer your question – thats exactly what I want to see if that is what the victim wants. Whatever they want i good enough for me.
Mask slipping?
What would lead you to make a comment such as that? The questions I’ve asked have been nothing but civil and courteous to you and your faith.
West Belfast: I lived and worked most of my life in W.Belfast but I do not know where you are coming from because you sound so defensive. As I see it, there is a systemic fault (re CHILD ABUSE) which has to be righted. The focus has to be on putting things right. The RC Church has to put right the bits within its domain, immediately.
Granni Trixie: I don’t think West Belfast is being defensive; he is speaking from the viewpoint of most Catholics who have not encountered any form of abuse from the Catholic Church. He has also expressed his concern at the amount of blatant Catholic hatred which has been displayed in quite a few posts to SOT. West Belfast’s posts on these subjects are much better than my several ravings – possibly because he is still a practising Catholic and I am not.
The RC Church has to put right the bits within its domain, immediately Thoroughly agree with you there Granni Trixie – as I do with most of your posts which are so often humourous and insightful.
blatant Catholic hatred: on re-reading would be better expressed as “blatant anti-Catholic hatred”
Re. The Letter:
“[the priest]is the steward of the good Lord; the administrator of his goods”;
“…may the whole Church in Ireland grow in appreciation for the great gift of the priestly ministry”;
And do please let not one of us disregard the following.
“Seek a personal relationship with him within the communion of his Church, for he will never betray your trust!”
Many decent devout citizens will read this letter in full and find genuine difficulty in denying a pang of conscience, a polite roll of the eyes even perhaps. Deep down, the bulk of them now know that it’s dangerous sinister rubbish in its totality and there is not a thinking person alive who can any longer take it seriously or who can trust the unlovely combination of criminals, frauds, chancers and bewildereds who urge them to do so.
[b]and there is not a thinking person alive who can any longer take it seriously[/b]
I think and {I hope this does not shock you too much} I do take it seriously.
It may come as a further to shock to learn that not everyone in the Cosmos thinks about things in the same blinkered way that you do.
Sadly not a shock padraig me boy, sadly not. I am sure you’ll agree with me though that it is more probably the folks who don’t see through this papal letter who may wearing the blinkers. Those keen on finally moving us finally out of the dark ages should be encouraging everyone left deluding themselves about this silly and dangerous superstition and the profound evil which attends it to do likewise.
West Belfast – I agree with you.
Those who abused the children – and others who through action or inaction compounded that damage have, in addition to the physical and mental damage, in many cases spiritually murdered their victims and others. I cannot see how my committing spiritual suicide will in any way address that wrong. I too, along with my family will attend the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass tomorrow
Seosamh913 ,
Go and have a look , if you can bear it at the numbers of people who attend Catholic Churches right up and down the island of Ireland. I do and have for I attend mass every day and with the help of God will do so till the day I die. This is Lent and the numbers are huge. Nor are they showing in anyway signs of tailing off in anyway because of this crisis.In fact I note ,as other observers have that with the financial melt down they are biger than ever.
So the fact of the matter is long, long after you and me have been called before the Judgement Seat of God the Church will continue as it has fro over two thousand years and as it will continue to flourish into Eternity.
There have always been doomsayers such as yourself who have foretold the the death of Faith, they have come and gone defeated and humiliated by the victory of faith as you will be.
You have your opinions ,which you are entitled but I feel a certain irritation at a vaunting arrogance that suggests that everyone shares or must share in the the views and opinions you hold in your very own little universe.
padraig
Even if what you say is true regarding church numbers, which I would need some convincing of, it proves absolutely nothing about the validity of your beliefs, quite literally nothing at all. Other than perhaps providing rather dispiriting evidence that credulity and superstition remain are all too alive in our community. From a human progress and civilisation point of view I cannot help regretting that I must say.
The other observation I would make is that the arrogance is not mine, you are more than welcome to your personal beliefs. Just don’t please be so arrogant as to expect me to respect either your beliefs or in particular your willingness to believe pretty much whatever you’re told by a collection of lonely, deeply sexually repressed elderly men professing to be virgins without a single solitary shred of reliable evidence supporting what they are telling you.
Thanks
[b]Even if what you say is true regarding church numbers, which I would need
some convincing of,[/b]
Its not complicated or difficult,Seosamh913 , stand outside a Catholic Church this morning, any Catholic Church you like and observe the numbers. But you don’t have to, do you? You’re being disingenuous not to say plain dishonest for unless you live somewhere outside this island and were brought up in the FIji Islands or somewhere that there’s still large crowds streaming out to mass.
It difficult to dialogue with someone who is dishonest about such an obvious issue.
As to:
[b]collection of lonely, deeply sexually repressed elderly men professing to be virgins [/b]
[a] You do not have to be a virgin to be a priest anymore than you need to be a virgin to be a postman or a plumber.
[b] How on earth does someone who professes to hate the Church and claims to be a complete atheist know so many priests that he is in a position to gauge their general psychological state …[i]without a single solitary shred of reliable evidence supporting what they are telling you.?[/i][/b]
“Moderate unionist (sic)”
west belfast, MU appears to be a SF apologist so he’s a different sort of unionist to the politicians who use that label here. As for moderate …
Padraig: but I thought that priests had to be and remain virgins?
On another condradiction, why is getting divorced one of the ‘worst’ sins? I say this because my understanding is that as long as u r divorced you cannot take communion. If you commit murder,say sorry and you can take communion.
I rest my case but correct me if you know different.
[b]Padraig: but I thought that priests had to be and remain virgins? [/b]
No, check it out, Granni, they do not have to be virgins in order to become priests.
[b]why is getting divorced one of the ‘worst’ sins? I say this because my understanding is that as long as u r divorced you cannot take communion. If you commit murder,say sorry and you can take communion.[/b]
If you commit murder and repent, showing thereby you no longer intend to commit murder you can take communion
If you are divorced but repent you can take communion too. Check that out too, Trixie.
What you cannot do is take Communion if you are living with someone you have not been married to in a Catholic Church. For this is an ongoing sinful relationship. Anymore then you can take communion if you are continuing to murder people. Its a matter of continuing a sinful relationship or way of life .
I am not a Sunday School teacher..
I am struck really with how very,very,very little folks who attack the Catholic Church actually know about it.
As I say check it out, all this information is freely available online.
But is it still the case that they commit to being “chaste” on becoming priests,that is they must not have sex. What has been written suggests that they can cherry pick.
I think the defintion of an “ongoing sinful relationship” is absolutely absurd.
In addition what hyprocasy – the church being harder on people living together than on say a sex abuser. This is the sort of thing which will have to change.
padraig
I would be looking for a little more evidence that a bland observation that there are a fair number still attending – can you point to anything objective which supports the view that there are more attending than last year, 5 years ago, ten years ago ?
Regarding the absence of a single solitary shred of reliable evidence supporting what they are telling you, I am referring to the unsubstantiated claims lying at the heart of their, and presumably your, belief claims. Why should I respect the views of anyone of adult age and reasonable intelligence who is prepared to believe anything he or she is told without any evidence ?
[b]What has been written suggests that they can cherry pick.[/b]
You have lost me Trixie,
please explain your reference to [i]‘cherry pick’[/i]
[b]In addition what hyprocasy – the church being harder on people living together than on say a sex abuser[/b]
If a person is in an going sinful relationship and refuses to leave it they cannot receive communion. If they repent and give up the sinful relationship they can receive communion.
If someone abuses children and refuses to give it up they cannot receive communion. If they repent and give up abusing children, they can receive communion.
Its about repentance and changing manner of life in both circumstances.
As I say I feel like a Sunday School teacher here , this is very,very basic stuff.. You appear to be attacking things which you do not appear to have the most basic understanding of, Trixie.
As I say you can read up on this stuff online, which will give you at least a basic understanding of the issues you appear to comment on without even a basic understanding of.
padraig
Can you please explain what benefit the receipt of communion bestows upon anyone, whether a ‘post-repentence’ child rapist or anyone else ? By the same token, what disadvantages does not receiving it entail exactly ?
Thanks
Seosamh913 ,
Just a couple of posts ago you were assuring everyone that:
[b]‘….. there is not a thinking person alive who can any longer take it [i]the church[/i] seriously’[/b]
Now you appear to have dropped that insane claim,when challenged, that everyone in Ireland has left the Catholic Church and become …well just like yourself. The world is not like you, nor does the whole world think like you.
Then after dropping this insane suggestion you moved the goal posts to state that you simply did not know whether people in Ireland went to Church on Sunday or not.When challenged you dropped this insane claim too.
Now you want to move to move the goal posts once again and argue whether or not congergations are growing or not.
Well I am afraid I am not going with you moving the goal posts once again as I am getting a little tired of you moving the posts hither and thither as it suits you.
Honest straight forward debate I can handle, this constant shifting of the goal posts makes me dizzy, they don’t even let you do that in foot ball…and you can see why.
I’ll give you thins link as a last effort but don’t come back shifting goal posts again, I ‘m getting a little tired of it:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/1102/1224257901174.html
West Belfast, my point in starting this thread was to highlight what I construed to be an inadequate response from the church authorities. I’m really glad that you have articulated both your own robust faith and the fact that there is an enormous amount of healthy normality about the multitude of ordinary churchgoers. Many thanks. I agree with most of what you say.
granni trixie: A few definitions:
I always thought “virgin” meant someone who has never had sex, but in the latest OED it says:
“An unmarried or chaste maiden or woman, distinguished for piety or steadfastness in religion…”
The word for someone who has never had sex, apparently, is “Maiden”: “A man (or woman) that has always abstained from sexual intercourse.”
Celibacy: The state of living unmarried (in French I think the word for “single” is “celibataire” (Don’t know the French description for “Swinging singles”)
“Chastity”: Purity from unlawful sexual intercourse; continence.
AFAIK all Catholic clergy take a vow of chastity so they cannot cherry pick. What the sex abusers have been doing is a sin and a breaking of their vow as well as being criminal.
Even Christ spoke strongly against divorce “What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder”. (Matthew 19:6). And St Paul in 1 Corinthians 7:27 “Art thou bound to a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.” St Paul was saying being unmarried helped the religious life (though if you were married, stay married).
St Jerome thought it was even better for a religious person to be a chaste virgin, ie never been sexuality awakened. He said: “to be continent in the state of widowhood is harder, then to keep our virgin pure”.
[b]Can you please explain what benefit the receipt of communion bestows upon anyone[/b]
I wonder why all our posts appear to be in bold now???
It benefits people because it is the Body of Christ.
It disadvantages people because they fail to receive Christ.
As I say I am not a Sunday School teacher so I’ll leave you to study up on this yourself, Trixie at your leisure.
Can anyone get rid of this unwanted “bold” font??? It’s making the reading of the comments quite hard.
I have emailed Mick
[/b]“In responding to the crimes of its clergy, the Vatican has chosen to operate at an almost unimaginable level of triviality.”
Trivial, and almost blackly comical to non-believers, but all very plausible to the faithful. Anyone who has faith doesn’t need evidence, and probably distrusts it when it undermines their faith, so they’re reassured by statements that require them to have faith in the good faith of those making them. After all, the Pope is infallible, being guided by a higher power, and so this statement cannot be in bad faith. When the fundamentals are that flawed, the faithful are the last set of folks that you can rely on hold their idols and his servants to account. The Catholic Church has committed acts (and survived) far worse than harbouring kiddie fiddlers, so it figures it will survive this too (and it will).