New Brady case doesn’t look like cover up
The Guardian’s veteran political commentator Michael White takes world weariness to new heights by predicting that the Catholic Church has the stamina to sit out the media firestorm. These things blow themselves out in time, as all Westminster watchers know. In Britain perhaps, where the abuse crisis hasn’t reached the same level but there’s no sign of a firebreak in Ireland and indeed worldwide, where the storm is gaining second wind and is now engulfing the Vatican. But balance and fairness are essential and never more so than when the cause is just. I see that the Church’s sclerotic spokemen have taken care to spell out that the latest cases under the microscope were reported to the police. This applies to the Bishop Hegarty case . Not for thre first time, the issue here implicates the State which has to answer why a private civil settlement was deemed appropriate for a rape case. Responsibility seems clearer in a 2001 rape case in Cardinal Brady’s Armagh archdiocese reported by UTV tonight. This came to trial, resulting in acquittal but also a follow up compensation settlement. According to a lengthy statement issued hastily to the Irish Times, the cardinal was not bound by the confidentiality agreement of the civil action and suspended the priest, named only as “Father X”. His identity was at first withheld to protect the victim. Then late tonight the suspended priest was named as Father Joseph Quinn. While the priest seems to have been named under pressure, making his life difficult beyond the immediate circle of those in the know, the cardinal’s position appears not to have worsened. But the case again puts him under the closest scrutiny. What other cases will come out in the Irish wash? Interestingly the Economist declares that “ removing the Irish primate, who has said he will only go if the pope requests it, could signal that the era of cover-ups is finally over ” a view which I believe fails to rise to the level of events.Back to Mike White, who links to an interesting court ruling reported in the Daily Mail, market leader in turned-on crossness, which upholds the right of conscience of Catholic adoption agencies not to permit adoptions by gays. I must admit I’ve some sympathy with this view although I wouldn’t have any, if gays didn’t have recourse to other agencies.
Mr Justice Briggs said because an exemption in the 2007 Sexual Orientation Regulations allowed gay charities to restrict their help to homosexuals, it was right that Catholic Care should also be allowed to discriminate. The judge added that the good work carried out by the charity outweighed the importance of European anti-discrimination legislation…However, he sent the case back to the Charity Commission to reconsider in light of his ruling, which means it could yet find reasons to force the adoption agency to close.
TellMeMa, I understand what you are doing with regards to trying to put the church’s problems in context. But it can be a double edged sword. There is a difference between a failing and a cover-up. I believe what Cardinal Brady did was a failing but there were many cover-ups in the Church and that has to be rooted out.
Shane, you don’t think it odd that a single ‘profession’ can account for 3.7% of all abusers? Lets take very rough calculations: about 5000 priests, some 0.15% of the adult population, but responsible for 3.7% of abuse cases? Combined with the absolute (and, I have to say, very naive) trust that many people had in the organisation, which makes it a special case in terms of access, I think 3.7% of abusers is appalling.
Based on your figures Shane, and some very rough calculations (assuming approximately 20% of the adult population are fathers) the data suggest that priests are some 20-fold more likely to be an abuser than non-clergy members of the public and some 200-fold more likely to abuse than a father, and that is something of which parents and child protection agencies should be very cognisant.
Lionel: I agree with you entirely.
Yes, I am trying to balance out the matter in the face of the comments of anti-Catholic secularists etc.
The Catholic church has been a haven for child abusers for decades. It may be over, but only if it is clear to all that accusations of assault must be reported to the Garda in every case, and responsibility for education etc is held by the state.
I am not sure it serves any purpose to demand Brady resign. He does not have my respect, but then I am not Catholic. The question is who is to replace him, even the Pope is tainted! Since it is unlikely they can just grab a student and install him, they may have to make do with what little they have.
Mayoman, a few thoughts:
that statistic also includes members of religious orders.
the number of clergy has roughly halved from the 1960s. Presumably a lot of abuse indicated in the survey is historic.
priests had greater intimate access to children than members of most other professions. They also were much more likely to be trusted and venerated.
paedophiles tend to concentrate in professions where they have access to children. It’s more a case of paedophiles becoming priests than priests becoming paedophiles.
it’s probable that victims of priestly abuse are more conscious of his ‘professional’ profile, and more likely to report or acknowledge abuse in the first instance. Clerical abuse reports only became widespread after Brendan Smyth was exposed (a watershed), prompting other victims of priestly abuse to come forward. This may skew the proportions.
the most comprehensive study into clerical abuse in any country is the John Jay Institute’s report drawn up for the American Catholic bishops’ conference. It found that about 4% of priests and deacons serving in the US between 1950 and 2002 had been accused of sexual abuse of someone under 18. In 1994, Hofstra University researcher Carol Shakeshaft undertook a study for the US government of 225 cases of sexual abuse in the teaching profession in New York City; it found up to 5% of teachers had been accused of sex abuse but warned that the vast majority of abuse wasn’t reported. She submitted written testimony to the Colorado legislature stating: “The physical sexual abuse of students in public schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests.”
About 5% of Irish priests have been accused of abuse (many of those have been cleared)
The HSE or the Department of Education do not investigate abuse they deem ‘historic’.
Shane, do you think we need an investigation into the education system? If you do please say so. But even if it is needed, it in no way excuses the paedophilia of the Catholic church and doesn’t affect the increased risk of abuse associated with priests relative to other sections of society. I have a problem with the way that the 3.7% was presented. It is not an almost negligible part of the problem but clearly indicates a propensity for abuse by a certain section of society in a position of access to children (and therefore, is independent of whether the priesthood attracts paedophiles or not – the risk is the risk). Put another way, if child protection agnecies could identify groups responsible for whole percentages of abuse, be they priests, or any other profession, there job would be very much easier. I also found your paragraph on reporting of clerical abuse a bit confusing, seeming to say it was easier to report clerical abuse, but it wasn’t common until after a certain point in time. While I would certainly, agree with the latter point, I have no doubt that much clerical abuse has been left unreported. The basis for the 100-fold difference, being based on a comparison of data that simply cannot be collected (number of abuse case NOT reported in the educational or clerical setting) cannot be taken as based on aything like meaningful data (but happy to be corrected on this).
it’s probable that victims of priestly abuse are more ……likely to report or acknowledge abuse in the first instance.
Really? Why is that?
about 4% of priests and deacons serving in the US between 1950 and 2002 had been accused of sexual abuse of someone under 18
up to 5% of teachers had been accused of sex abuse but warned that the vast majority of abuse wasn’t reported
So, you want us to believe that children abused by godlike figures called priests are more likely to have reported it.
Where do you draw these imaginings from? Please don’t say a report commissioned by the accused.
This attempt to deflect attention from Irish problems just won’t work. Same goes to you, TellMeMa. I wish more children had told their Mas.
The phrase: bewitched, bothered and bewildered, springs to mind…
Your Honour, I may have acted a wee bit inappropriately, but in fact the child misunderstood my affection. And what’s more, Your Honour, others did it too and some were worse than me, so please go easy on me
And what did you do at school today???
I annoyed Sister Matilde. She beat me and half the class on our arms with her big ruler and our arms all swoll up. And it wasn’t our fault; we’re only 5 and she sent us out for 15 minutes to look at the partial eclipse of the sun and we didn’t hear her ring her little bell. They always ring the big bell when you have to go back inside. And she locked the door and wouldn’t let us in for another 15 minutes. Then she beat us for being disobedient; she said it was a sin. But it worked out ok because she went and got the other nuns and they put cold compresses on our arms to make the swelling go down.
True story, Feb 25th 1952.
joe
It happened before 1952 and it has definitely happened since. I hope we are seeing the end of it now.
Maybe it even happened to the nun who committed this…
I’m not ashamed in the least, pippakin, to admit that I and my sister-in-law who was also beaten that day have since danced on that bitch’s grave.
Joe
I have to confess that if I thought the creatures who broke my mothers arm was alive today. I would seek her out…for a serious talking to…
Mayoman, I am not sure whether an investigation into the education system should be undertaken. I’m quite certain it would uncover a lot of unsavoury facts- for that reason I suspect the government would hesitate to do so. I agree with you that whatever the rate of child abuse in wider society in no mitigates the culpability of priestly abusers, but it does help us understand paedophilia as a widespread phenomenon.
Joe, your comment is erratic and you clearly didn’t understand what I was saying. My point was that priests were so exceptionally venerated it gave an added incentive for paedophiles to join the priesthood – assuming they could abuse with impunity.
Joe, your comment is erratic and you clearly didn’t understand what I was saying. My point was that priests were so exceptionally venerated it gave an added incentive for paedophiles to join the priesthood – assuming they could abuse with impunity.
Shane,
Fair enough. I didn’t understand that you were making that argument.
I think my point stands though. Because they were venerated, god like figures I called them, means that it is more probable that the children didn’t report them. The dam certainly has burst now, though, and rather than beating about the bush with vague, sometimes unbelieveable, excuses, they should bite the bullet and excise the “cancer” at the heart of an overwhelming innocent priesthood.
True, Joe, but this survey was conducted only a few years ago. What I mean is that paedophiles might have assumed in the past – most were probably ordained in the 60s and 70s – that lay victims would never report them because of their elevated social status. It’s probably the exact opposite now – a victim would have more confidence reporting or acknowleging priestly abuse at the present time because it’s so much in the public domain.
It is obvious that the church was not the only hiding place for paedophiles, the cover up has been exposed and hopefully eradicated.
I hope the above applies to the brutality as well. I can think of no acceptable reason for it, unless the nuns/priests had been victims in their turn, which if true shows how far back it goes.
On this thread are two instances of brutality, one in 1926, the other in 1952. Two strangers can quote instances, what does that tell us…
Yes, pippakin. The sad thing about all of this is that parishioners all over the country will be looking at their priests and wondering “Is he one of them?”. That’s intolerable. The Church needs desperately to open their files and expose the criminals before they are all destroyed. There are many many good people. The nun I described was certainly an exception in that convent; but we knew what to expect before we went in to her classroom; her reputation proceeded her and her sisters helped to cover up her propensity for violence. The example I quoted was but one example of her exceptional brutality.
joe
Granni Trixie enjoyed her time in the convent. I said on another thread that I believe there were many working selflessly for their communities.
You are so right all of their good work is tarnished by the cover up of the crimes committed by their colleagues. It is sad and demoralising for future members of the clerical orders.
pippakin and others,
there was a fascinating ‘must-see’ documentary on the Irish missionary movement on RTE a few weeks ago. It is on the RTE iplayer until the 23th March. Regardless of what one thinks of their motivations, I certainly recommend seeing it:
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1067783
shane
Im not ignoring you, am downloading doc. very, very slowly…
It has been written on other threads here, that Ireland/Europe are just the tip of the iceberg, the allegation is there is worse in Africa. I sincerely hope that is not so, but have no firm information either way.
pippakin, please do tell us what you thought of it after you’ve seen it.
shane
Perfectly happy to, but, I think youre avin a laugh…
Me? No. I never laugh.
shane
Youre on then, assuming of course the wretched b/b doesnt pack up.
I will give my impression of Michael Parkinson, Johnathan Ross (without the language) in due course…
shane
Sorry, I think Im going to let you down on the review slot. The b/b keeps cutting out.
I have been following the postings regarding Child Sexual Abuse with more than a little interest and I am surprised that for all the information posted, how little of what went on is appreciated or how openly some of this abuse happened.
My National schooling took place in a small two roomed mixed gender country school in Mid Munster. In most cases there was a male Principle teacher for the third, fourth, fifth and sixth year classes. It was 100% R.C. as were all the small rural and village schools in the region. Preparing for Confirmation was the big event of the senior classes. Once completed all schools were visited by a Religious Diocesan Inspector.
The format was the same as for other lesson examinations, fifteen or so young teenage boys and girls stood around the masters table in a half circle and when selected each read their lesson or answered a question etc. Two or three students would also have to come forward and stand at the side of the table where they would also ask questions on the lessons of the other students.
The same format was followed for the special visit of the religious examiner, he sat in the Masters chair while the Master or presiding teacher stood in the back of the room. This Clerical Religious Inspector then did a brief examination group process with plenty jokes thrown in. Then came the up by the side of the table routine. There usual practice ended, his chair was relocated to the back and side corner of the table.
This was in the early 1960′s, most boys still wore short pants and girls knee length dresses. The inspector pulled his chair over to the side, he would have used the exchange to identify the quite ones, they were first out, a boy followed by a girl by a boy. from the outset his hand went around each waist, each were pulled close for full side contact to begin with then each had their buttocks stroked and squeezed for a few minutes before his hand then went openly up a trouser leg and stayed there fondling the boys genitals and they were kidded, mocked and humiliated by remarks like ” Oh I think he likes this” etc if they stopped reading or asking questions or went silent.
The girls got the very same treatment when their turns came only the fondling lasted a bit longer, especially if he got someone that responded a bit giggly. The sessions lasted about an hour and in this time he would have got through over half the group. I stress all during this time that those of the senior classes not making confirmation at that time together with the all the third and fourth mixed classes were in the room at their seats and while in part screened off by the half circle, most could also see in part what was going on as could the Master at the back of the class room.
Four schools a day meant meant around around twenty boys and twenty girls subjected to this treatment. He was the religious Inspector for around. Since some villages had two rooms of senior classes, and he was responsible for examining around twenty classes in the region, that made somewhere two hundred pupils openly groped and molested through his ‘examinations’ each term and he continued this practice for several years.
The is no excuse for the teachers that stood by and watched this happen, but neither was there one parental complaint that I know of and they all knew it was happening. A bigger disgrace for them at that time would arise it their child was ‘ held back’ from confirmation as that usually happened to somebody ‘not the full penny’ as the saying went then and that stigma carried all sorts of social implications!
I should also hasten to add that I never heard of any of these teachers acting in any inappropriate with pupils other than by not intervening during the events described.
Old reporters of this areas regional newspapers know this story, but to expose it and bring the matter to public attention would cost them half their readership of grandparents and their extended families. This is one sleeping dog that everyone wants to let lie.
Yes what has happened in Clerical child sexual abuse is absolutely appalling for each and every individual victim, their immediate and extended families. However clerical abuse while a significant part of the abuse, is only just that, a significant part as can be seen from the next posting.
The greater Child Sexual Abuse scandals relate to families, extended families and civil society as a whole. The then Cork Examiner broke a story of Pedophile abuse and child prostitution in Cork City and it’s environs in the mid nineties. There are six full pages of details there, and these only scratched the surface. It was not even a nine day wonder, it the flap lasted a week at most and things continued as before.
Two years back I attended a series of lectures on various subjects of a political/social nature in Scotland. A leading surgeon who had made a professional study the use of children for sexual purposes in an instutionalised way laid bare the extent of this in the heart of the British Establishment. He named names and backed these up with accounts of incidents that had surfaced in the public domain. The incidents of this activity he in response to a question from me, could be expected to be somewhat the same in Dublin and in most European major cities.
This why aside from the odd indigent statement, that our politicians North And South will not come to grips with the problem in any meaningful way, any serious investigation they will start is bound by law of averages to end at the doors of some of their own colleagues. We are a long, long away as a society from being ready to grasp this particular nettle and with good reason. Look at those in the South that have been exposed for assisting and facilitating pedophiles, they have been in the top tiers of the State infrastructure.
One yardstick for this tolerance, look at the various national offices these people held in cultural organizations and voluntary organizations before their exposure and resignations. Now see how many had to resign from their cultural activities, speaking engagements etc. The activities of these people have at very least widespread social toleration arising from their perceived and indeed actual power and influence.
As far as Clerical Child Sexual abuse being some sort of watershed; in terms of what other sectors of C.S.A. is out there we aint seen nothing yet!
Munsterview
The extent of the abuse of children may never be known, and perhaps for our peace of mind we should never find out.
We now have the Garda reports and the UK has the CRB reports, these are intended to, and should, prevent known abusers gaining employment with children and vulnerable people.
All anyone can do is safeguard the children and let everyone know that no matter how long the robe, they are not above or beyond the law.
Today the teacher, or indeed parent, who allowed such ‘fondling’ to take place, would be as guilty as the perpetrator.
Munsterview
Forgive me but what were all the parents on? If that had happened in the North in a Protestant school the parents would have lynched him. My late father was a totally honest and law abiding man but if it had happened to me and I had told him I suspect that the RUC would have had to haul him away after the damage he would have done to the Inspector and the Teacher who let it happen.
I do take a more lenient view on the physical abuse. Mores were different then and a ‘good slap’ (within reason) was much more accepted and not necessarily illegal. But sexual assault is a different thing.
Pipakin – I know you mean well in saying I enjoyed my time th inthe Sacre heart Home but I see now that I have obviously communicated badly.
We made our own fun, as children do, given half a chance.In my case as the Home was safer than my family home, I appreciated this and was “happy” enough. My sibling, bewing younger, missed her mum and hated every minute which alas had a most detrimental effect long term.
My original point in bringing this up was to say that leaving out a culture of cruelty in institutions, you have to look at society/families to see why they are needed in the first place – why children end up in care.
Shane
I don’t equate homosexuality and paedophilia at all. The original point made was an allegation that living in an all male environment made men incline to homosexuality. I think that’s nonsense. A % of the population is gay, a larger % (probably ) is bi to one degree or another and may therefore swing depending on what’s available! Many more are totally straight.
granni trixie
I am sorry I misquoted you. I know you believe that some of the problems were family based, and as you know I am not convinced you are right. No doubt there were some children who came from abusive families, that is no excuse for subjecting those damaged children to further abuse, which is what happened in many cases.
History shows many children were removed from homes, some were given new birth certificates and now cannot find out who their real families are. Some have two birth certificates. It is not all the fault of the church. The state, at the least, colluded in the process.
It is too late now for many of the victims of the system, but it is not too late to make sure the abuse and cover up of that abuse stops.
cynic2
A little over two decades ago I was in O’Dohoghue’s pub in Dublin a by then trendy and fashionable meeting place. I was in the company of leading university professor and we were joined by another, the late and distinguished professor F.X.Martin who was also an Augustinian. About half present were recognizable public faces from the from top Establishment figures.
A man dropped by our table and sat down, interrupting the conversation and not bothering to observe even basic good manners. He did not need to, he was one of the top civil servants in the State in one of it’s most powerful and influential offices. He had scanned the crowd present, he was top of the pecking order there and he was strutting his ‘master of the universe’ antics. he was there but not for ‘the day job’ important and all as this was.
My companion introduced me, I ignored the outreached hand, got up from the table, asked to be excused and went up to a bar stool where I began talking with the barman. Our nearby company had seen what happened but misread the situation, for them it was a Provo V The State thing.
He tried not to show it but he was rattled and uncomfortably, but only because he knew who I was and my real reason for spurning him. After about fifteen minutes he moved on to another table and I came back to mine.
” You did that rather obvious Old Boy” my professor companion said ” you could at least observe civilities whatever of your politics” My reply also heard by the nearby tables was ” This has nothing to do with politics, I will not sit at the same table or drink with a known pedophile in public !”
My distinguished friends reply ” That is just a little failing he has!….”
This man was also one of the leading lights of a Cultural Festival where the great and the good took themselves off to a major annual week down the country, it was a no expenses spared bash, speaking invites were eagerly sought and this man had in effect control of it’s themes and finances. My companion quickly took off after him to ‘kiss arse and grovel’ he could not afford financially or career wise to alienate him. In the small, and I should add small minded intimate circles of intellectual incest that was and still is the Dublin literati ( with a few courageous exceptions ) such a move was tantamount to ‘a kiss of death’.
Professor F.X. was visibly upset, while he commended my courage that man held the purse strings for about ten different projects he was involved in, he had to stay neutral !
There is a sequel, in discussing how casually accepted pedophile activity is in ruling elites, F.X. told me ( he was poor as the proverbial church mouse ) than an old university friend now a leading industrialist took him to an expensive up-market restaurant once a month or so and that there he see this individual on a regular basis having a leisurely meal in the company of a certain topical magazine editor.
I had been giving this particular regular information about various wrongdoings in the State, little was published always ‘for legal reasons’, of course yet here I found that the intel I had regularly supplied in confidence about wrongdoing was being traded off for bigger ‘inside’, but harmless stories.
As far as Builders, Bankers and W****** go and their friends and associates in establishment elites, those responsible for what the late George Colly referred to as ‘Low Standards In High Places’, we have not even touched this festering ball of corruption, much less lanced the boil!
This week we see a low ranking Garda questioned for leaking information to the press that led to a Ministers resignation. How did the pleothra journalists and camera crews know the exact day and time to be outside Banker Sean Fitzpatrick’s house for his arrest at 6 am? Another one for the optics to bamboozle the public that something is being done while nothing really changes.
Even the likes of C. could not defend this. However I always did say that banning the likes of me from the public airwaves ( has the sky fallen since it was lifted ) had little to do with silencing ‘The Boys Of The Old Brigade’ and everything to do with protecting the ‘Brown Envelope Brigade’
They, the power elites through their minions and State apparatus continue to try and intimidate half of us who do speak out, but the other half are well bought out and like my distinguished academic friend, silenced for a shilling!
Munsterview: I have mixed feelings about what you write. On one hand,you sound as though you are name dropping but on the other hand your story illustrates how things are as they are which is a valid reason for your piece.
It strikes me that ones view of child abuse is directly related to ones personal experiences which is exactly the points I would make about abortion. What I mean is that part of the problem of discussing child abuse within the cuhurch or anywhere is that it is not experienced in the abstract, you have to relate it to what you know.
Granny,
I do not have any need to name drop. In cultural activity I have achieved a few recognitions for my art in my own sphere but that is another story.
I regret the posting had to be so long and detailed as to try the patience of the readers. However to recap I wanted to to show,
1) In Ireland as in other countries pedophiles are not just offending priests of men in dirty raincoats with a pocket full of sweets. These types are a very much a minority. The majority abuse happens inside dysfunctional or corrupt families. A significant section of this sexual use of children happens also at the very top of society where the practitioners are discreet, networked and unseen.
2) I wanted to show how acceptable this detestable and soul destroying activity is to the establishment as a whole, this professor friend of mine had young children of his own and just did not mentally allow himself to join up the dots at what this degenerates ‘little failing’ would mean in terms of what was happening to children like his own.
3) I also wanted to show why given this interface with establishment figures and this activity, why there is no political will or inclination to root this out rank and file.
4) An immediate family relative has a Masters on the subject of pedophile offenders, this person is , to use the popular tv term, A Profiler whose work has been used by the F.B.I., I personally have worked with over twenty victims of C.S.A. and I have some appreciation of what is behind the headlines in terms of wrecked life’s that included suicides.
5) From open public lectures that I attended on the subject in England by a leading surgeon in who has made study of the use of children for sexual purposes by establishment figures his life’s work in addition to his Medical activities it seems that the problem is much worse in England and much more organised, systematic and institutionalized than here.
I have heard him publicly name leading English figures from all walks of life, backing his claims with facts that became public briefly before being quickly covered up. He also challenged these figures to sue him as he would love to further expose them. Two years and dozens of such lectures later since he gave the one I heard, he still has not been sued.
6) A lot of English people with inside information as to the real extent of the problem of child sex abuse were expecting massive publicity and changes from the Dunblaine massacre report. Tony Blair is supposed to have received this and embargoed it for one hundred years shortly before the Iraq War. If so why?
7) It seems the Cork Examiners six page article child sexual abuse dominate the local media for a week despite the evidence of child prostitution uncovered, it was then yesterdays news. Why did not one local politician ask a Dail Question on it?
Those in Authority who should have exposed it, instead worked to contain, discredit and finally bury the story by tactics that included ‘of the record’ character assassination and personal harassment of those who provided information to break the story.
It will take a watershed wake up in public opinion to provide the climate for exposure and change, we are not even close to this in Southern Politics. The Catholic Churches actions only effect their own victims for the majority of victims out there it is still business as usual and ‘Lord one day at the time’
Finally how many under age children are missing from State Care homes in the South for over a week or even a month or months? Who gives a damm ? That indicates the measure of our concern for children at risk or involved in street prostitution to survive!