From the Belfast Telegraph a new poll on identity gives the following response:
42% said they considered themselves Irish
39% British
18% Northern Irish
And on unification:
36% in favour of United Ireland
55% to remain in UK
(Can’t quite find out the missing 9%)
Interestingly on expectations:
Will NI still be part of the UK by 2021?
Yes: 42%
No: 42%
Here’s the BBC report – Irish identity tops new Northern Ireland Poll.
I’ve been catching up on some reading, recently. Most pleasantly surprised by John Drennan’s latest opus from Gill and Macmillan, Cute Hoors and Pious Protestors… It’s early days yet, but I was struck by this paragraph, part of a dissection of Fianna Fail near the beginning: One of the more fatal consequences of our colonial [...] read our review »
If you want to get a flavour of the proceedings at the Political Studies Association conference on its opening day, then the Storify collation below will bring you some of the images, tweets and sounds of the day. Particular highlights included: the Opening Plenary with David Blunkett, Peter Riddell and Matthew Flinders; and the late [...] read our review »
It’s not published until 3rd March, but one book I recommend you place an advance order for from Slugger’s Bookstore is James Harkin’s Niche. Belfast émigré Harkin examines a number of stories from business, culture and politics and comes to a single insight: everywhere the broad middle is collapsing. He offers Woolworths as an iconic exemplar [...] read our review »
Surely no one thinks NI will leave the UK within the next 11 years. What was the actual question text on “expectations?”
Surely no one thinks NI will leave the UK within the next 11 years. What was the actual question text on “expectations?”
While it would be pointless of any of the 18% who claimed that they were “Northern Irish” to then deny that they must by definition be “Irish”. I wonder how many of the 39% who identify themselves as “British” would at the same time find themselves able to deny that they too were “Irish”.
Sometimes I feel that this tortured question of identity with which unionists are prone to worry themselves to bits is like a mirror image of that awful schizophrenia that the psychologist, Franz Fanon became aware of in oppressed native peoples in French colonies where their colour and ethnicity somehow denied them that full belonging as a French citizen to which they were entitled in law.
Some unionists it would appear, despite being fully accepted as equal UK citizens by virtue of their being natives of one of the six north-eastern counties of Ireland, of being in fact – Irish, seem somehow psychologically terrified of accepting their own reality and so deny their very birthright lest their masters deem them unworthy.
It is all so terribly sad really. Poor buggers!
“this tortured question of identity with which unionists are prone to worry themselves to bits ”
Thanks for the patronising crap-NOT. Frankly I don’t know any unionist who worried about identity.
I suppose the good folks down South don’t actually get a choice on whether they want 1.7 million extra people ?
Seems the people of GB are going off a UI too:
From the British Social Attitudes Survey
The good folk down south as you so coyly refer to them, Alanbrooke, will not be “getting” any 1.7 million (or whatever) people it will not be akin to a post-bellum plantation sale where, (in this case, Southern rather than Northern) carpetbaggers buy up the land and take the sharecroppers along with it but rather a new dispensation of a nationhood of equal citizens of all the island of Ireland.
I agree that this is a concept that those imbued in the ethics of empire might find hard to grasp but one worth grasping nevertheless.
Try reading about democracy Rory, it’s all the rage in Ireland now, you ask people to agree to constitutional changes and don’t just force them on them. It’s really good and you don’t have to listen to all that historical bollocks either.
Re-unification of Ireland? Does that mean the southerners want to re-join the United Kingdom?
Alanbrooke,
I have never heard Rory say anything about forcing people. Quite the opposite.
Surely we should cut out the speculation and add a border poll question to the Westminster polls every 4 years or so.
Adds no expense and provides a genuine measure of public opinion.
>Re-unification of Ireland? Does that mean
>the southerners want to re-join the
>United Kingdom?
no, they just want a national anthem that’s by the Sex Pistols.
..oh, wait, I already used that one in a nother thread a few minutes ago
“ Nobody knows what will happen next- not even our leaders. We walk as a community in darkness down a strange unfamiliar road, into a new landscape for which there are no maps. Except, possibly, newspapers”.
The above is opening paragraph from the article in last Saturdays Irish Times by Declan Kibert which is part of a new series examining contemporary Ireland, how we got here and to possibly identify signposts for the way ahead.
No matter how well the plans are for either Irish Unity or to frustrate it by political parties, Kibert’s statement will equally apply, it will be totally unknown territory. Only one thing is certain, vested interests North and South will attempt to preserve as much of the existing social status quo and centralized, unaccountable power as they possibly can.
It seems to me that in addition to discussing the possibility/probility of a Unified Country on this island there should also be a parallel discussion as to what kind of Ireland it could be otherwise we could all wake up some monday morning in a unified state incorporating and institutionalizing the worst faults of the two and no way out!
Posted by Munsterview on Mar 15, 2010 @ 10:05 PM
Slug
I have saved a lot of funds into my TAX-FREE ISA/PEP fund so I thin I would have to rule out living in NI if there was a UI
I think you are allowed to keep any savings accounts that you opened while living in another member state if you move within the EU (or at least between Ireland and the UK) as long as you pay the relevant tax (in this case none).
You might find that you’d be better off keeping your savings in a hard currency like the Euro…
MV – couldn’t agree more.
A UI needs to be a genuinely better place for everyone involved or it is a pointless exercise.
I do think the act of starting the debate on what the final product should look like would in itself allow a very important opportunity to shape the future direction of the country.
… STILL waiting to hear the reasons why behind unification ….
Cormac
Fixed Goalposts!
Rory Page 3 Post 3 – I think it is a pity that some unionists dont describe themselves as Irish as well as British, but it is hardly surprising.
The definition of “Irish” that has been espoused by nationalists and those in the south for as long as I can remember isnt one that many unionists can relate to or wish to group themselves together with.
Can anyone really deny that in many peoples eyes the modern irish identity is defined by being of roman catholic faith, having gaelic forefathers and culture and in many quarters is measured by your dislike of the Brits?
I don’t really think that the qualities (?) you ascribe to Irishness above are exactly mandatory, Big Chief Ally, although I must admit that “dislike of the Brits” is probably expected.
The Brits wouldn’t really accept you as truly Irish otherwise. They expect us not to like them and the more we don’t the more it seems they like us, being quite happy to sing along to drunken, blood spattered Republican anthems all night long but recoiling in total distaste when someone like a Paisley loudly proclaims his Britishness.
Which of course makes them truly likeable really; and that is fine so long as we continue to pretend to dislike so as not to get them confused.
bigchiefally
In the main agreed!
One of the reasons why I have been consistently writing in these postings of the need for Unionists/ Loyalists of whatever persuasion and indeed Protestants on this Island to look again at their radical roots in the 98 rebellion, in the Young Ireland Movement and in the Celtic Renaissance era, to rediscover and reclaim their heritage.
Given what Anglo Irish literature achieved and it’s reputation in the world, to name but one strand, they do not have to invent a place in this island of Ireland, but just reclaim that part of their own culture appropriated by the narrow and excluding Nationalist/Catholic tradition. The latter is now completely discredited, the unholy alliance of Twenty/Six county church and state is, thankfully shattered shattered beyond repair.
In forging a new identity for this island we can do no better than to start in the last quarter of the 19th, century when it did seem that hope and history could rhyme and that a new all inclusive culture could emerge and indeed briefly did up to the outbreak of the First W.W..
Ireland must be almost unique in Europe in that the majority Roman Catholic population has Culture Heros from 1798 and for over the next 100 years, that are in the main protestant and yet these same people are by in large unknown and unappreciated in contemporary Northern protestant culture.
Going back even further to 1690 and The Battle Of The Boyne, how many Northern grass root Orangemen with their ‘kick the pope’ band traditions are aware that the pope of the day actually send finance and a corps of drummers to the King William to assist him in his Irish campaign, or that post the battle the same Pope ordered High Masses sung all over Europe to thank God for King William’s victory once he got the news ?
Both traditions need to rediscover their common cultural heritage and we both will be the better for it! Well could W.B.Yeaths claim on behalf of this protestant heritage that they were indeed ‘no petty people’.
Is it possible to be equally British, Irish, and Northern Irish all at the same time? lets just throw in European and Anglo-Celt to confuse things further.
BTW ignoring “feelings” the facts state we are all 3 if born or reside in Northern Ireland, its a stupid question. The “border poll” question is a bit more useful, but still a bit pointless without a proper context, there are certain circumstances where even I would favour a united Ireland, but I cant see them exisitng for quite some time. Remember NI was believed by many to be only a tempory measure at first, probably that could even have been the case if the South had not of went to the extremes it did, I guess at the end of it all the biggest obstacles to a UI have been De Valera and the IRA.
David Gordon asked Gerry Adams in Boston would he (Gerry) not be better trying to convince the people (‘back on the ranch’) of a united Ireland than the good folks of south Boston. A proposition with which, to be fair to him, Gerry agreed: “there is a really really supportive base here that understands that this is about uniting orange and green. If it was all green it would be simple.”
It’s a different poll, and the question has not been asked for a while now, the Life and Times poll shows consistently low support for a united Ireland, as little as 18 per cent in 2008.
Hardening support for nationalist parties into those parties’ preferred outcome on the constitutional question is a big challenge. And something we have had little thanks for pointing out here on Slugger over the years.
Maybe it is beside the point? Perhaps bedding in power-sharing between Catholics and Protestants is THE point. But as Gordon says at the bottom of his comment:
Munsterview
You ascribe too much kinship between someone like myself and historic southern Anglo-Irish ascendancy types, based on their Protestant religion.
The only way that two nations can have a right to self-determination is by retaining two states. Nationhood means what it says on the tin. There is no emergent “nationhood” in the GFA process when the ‘basis’ for the delusion it is a consolidation of two separate nations and not the creation of a single nation. You now have two nations, Irish and British, with the British nation having no requirement to join the Irish nation or to accept its nationality but having the constitutional right to retain British nationality and to reject citizenship of the supposedly emergent state.
Intelligence Insider has it right that the pre-determined course is unity within the UK, as it was before. The folks who declare that nothing is pre-determined are actually declaring that the Irish nation has no right to self-determination or to a sovereign state since these fundamentals would be pre-determined as non-negotiable if they were prepared to defend them, and so they are simply unwittingly preparing the ground for what Whitehall pre-determined in the GFA as its contingency to protect British national security interests should the unthinkable occur and a majority in NI vote for unity and a majority in Ireland do likewise.
Alias – I’m sure it is me, but I’ve read your post a couple of times and I have no idea what you are saying.
“Opinion polls do not take into consideration that a large percentage of the population, are in fact idiots. ”
TRUTH
Alias
‘so they are simply unwittingly preparing the ground for what Whitehall pre-determined in the GFA as its contingency to protect British national security interests should the unthinkable occur and a majority in NI vote for unity and a majority in Ireland do likewise.’
Exactly which British national security interests would be adversely affected or need protection if the as you put it ‘unthinkable ‘ occurred ?
So far I’m aware the current Irish Government has no plans to either invade England or annex Scotland or make a province of Wales in any postscript to the ‘unthinkable ‘.
Despite Parnell’s raised arm on his plinth at the top of O’Connell Street and despite Parnell’s famous quote that no man has the right to stop the march of a nation I somehow don’t envisage one of the heroes of our history having ‘military’ conquest in mind .
I see from Mack’s referred web site a few days back that the Irish Republic spends about half of one percent on it’s Defence Forces . Israel spends 16 times as much (much of it borrowed from the USA) and the USA spends almost 4% .
The UK and most major european countries spend circa 2% .
Why if 26% of the Catholic voting community support being the UK and they represent say 45% of the population is it that only 55% prefer the UK?
Does that mean that if for example there are 1,200,000 million on the register in NI and 540,000 are Catholic and 660,000 are Protestant that if 26% of the Catholics vote for the UK and 6% of Protestants vote for a UI that the overall vote for the UK would be 63%. Maybe there are other non aligned voters that prefer a UI or it it only those who expressed an opinion one way or the other? All very confusing.
Munsterview – All I’m doing is saying it as I see it. I’m sorry if youu think I’m been obtuse.
bigchiefally – the old definitions of ‘Irish’ don’t hold anymore, but only in the republic. The only ones who really identify with you definition are the Northern Irish, who do not live in state of Ireland. Identity is an issue for the two communityies of Northern Ireland (which is part of the UK).
It is not an issue for the people of the republic (Ireland). We don’t mind what ye call each other so long as its not a matter of life and death.
cormac mac art ‘
‘We don’t mind what ye call each other ‘
Too true .
‘so long as its not a matter of life and death’
Or money i.e taxes
jud….. If a parallel debate with the Irish Times is starting here on contemporary and future Ireland but with a Northern Focus, then the responses should have a coherence and their own page rather than be scattered through the various posting…….. Are you reading Mick F.?
Mike…. I am well aware of the differences between High Anglicanism and radical presbyterian 98 era and after, indeed what happened in the Northern Counties could be possibly better described as a Protestant Civil War. Likewise in the Eastern Counties it was often very much young Anglicans against their parents class, in short an intergenerational protestant war.
It was a complex situation, one that Dr. Ruan O’Donnell of Ul History Dep. in his studies of the United Irishmen and Women, has been teasing out for most of his adult life and yet he can still be taken by surprise by newly uncovered facts. Some I.T. columnist, Fintian O’Tool I think, gave an overview of these differences between various members of the Irish Protestant congregations some weeks back, so the South is not completely uninformed on the subject!
Allas…… A proper Federal governing structure with meaningful power devolved to the provinces could let each of the latter define it’s own ethos, and like the regions and communities. Under this system there is no reason why two communities could not peacefully co exist, each perusing the ethos that it is comfortable with. I have detailed this structure elsewhere. In this context simple question, which would Donegal have more in common with, Derry or Dublin? Would West Kerry, North Tipp and East Waterford have more in common with each other or Dublin. ?
Cormac Obtrusive…… did I say that? For the record I do not consider you obtrusive, occluding, odious, oleaginous, or oddball . No not even opalescent !
Seriously Cormac I not only respect your viewpoint and welcome your comments, I also readily concede that your views are not unique, a significant sector of Southern Public are totally against anything but the minimum interface with the Six Counties, even if that. I do not question that reality, what I dispute are the reasons especially when based on greed and indifference.
However in the event of a United Ireland I have now doubt that the same generosity of spirit that met the Haitian earthquake financial appeal, the house building in South Africa, Bob Geldof’s Aid for Africa etc. will manifest in the South again, it is part of what we are and I have seen that time and time again North, South, East and West.
I don’t doubt that greed and indifference are some of the reasons, but at least its an acknowledgement that such views exist.
As to the latter, I disagree. People who oppose it do so out of fear, the fear being that incorporating the north into Ireland would significantly de-rail our country as we know it.
Any talk of a united Ireland can only begin AFTER both communities up north lieve in peace with each other.
Cormac
” incorporating the north into Ireland would significantly de-rail our country as we know it”.
Do you want to preserve our crooked politicians?
Do you want to preserve our bent bankers?
Do you want to preserve our bankrupt builders?
Do you want to preserve our arrogant, self bonusing Senior Civil Servants?
Do you want to preserve our greedy Judges who would not take cuts like their cleaners had ?
Do you want to preserve our incompetent wasteful Health services?
Do you want to preserve hospital trolleys piled up patients for days without treatment?
Do you want to preserve probably the worst gangland activity per head of Population for any European Capital?
I could go on and on and on and on, do I need to?
Boys Oh Boys do we sorely need this train wreck and the sooner the better !
I am a Catholic Unionist. Is it hard to believe that we might have an individual opinion, that we might be pragmatic? This poll only shows a pattern of news stories, polls and speeches which appear to be trying to desensitize us to the idea of a UI. It is up to the UUP for example to suddenly learn what PR is, get some catholics involved in the party and standing, kick off any notion of DUP electoral pacts and bring us back from the brink.
What I don’t understand is that this is the independent media publishing this and that they will write a story that they think will sell and that they can see a vested interest in. Its the same as Jim Alister constantly being asked for his view. If anybody had sense he would be gagged and committed but the BBC constantly have him on radio and TV as they think he will be big in the future and they are going to make sure of it – “the media Frankenstein” (I reserve the right to referring to Jim Allister as this). When really lets face it he is a cancer in unionism – deadly and growing.
I agree that there will be no change by 2021 and I back this up with the trend in catholic opinion increasing in favour of the Union from the NILTS in 2006.
slmcc,
Catholic Unionists are not a new phenomenon.
I’d say the ratio in the North is similar now to what we saw in terms of Catholics in the police, judiciary, bank managers, lecturers at Queens etc. during the troubles.
Same idea with Dublin Castle employees in earlier times. The demographic is there, but is not enough to influence a national debate.
It does still surprise me though to see you holding out for an inclusive UU party
That’s something I do doubt we will see by 2021.
Surely this debate about a united Ireland is somewhat outdated within the context of increasing globalisation and an ever expanding EU.
The 19th century view of a united Ireland as a single unitary state I suggest will never be a reality.
An assembly in Stormont with a legal relationship with Westminster, the Dail and Brussels is likely to be the best long term option for the people of Northern Ireland.
If demographics change to the extent that those from a Catholic background represent the majority or close to it a substantial number perhaps in both communities may be content with a unique constitutional arrangement in which Dublin and London could exercise joint authority over Northern Ireland (I’m aware this is not an original idea but does not appear to feature in the discourse on this subject).
Both the union flag and the Irish tricolour could fly outside government buildings reflecting the two traditions in this part of the island.
Both communities would have their respective positions as Irish or British citizens secured.
It would further allow us to harness and exploit the unique relationship we have with both London and Dublin to our financial advantage.
This option would appeal to many who consider themselves Irish but who rely on the British state for employment and would be reluctant to jeopardise that by voting for Irish unity.
The mutually exclusive nature of the poll commissioned by the BT pushes people in to corners and polarises the communities in a manner that could lead to further conflict, this compromise suggestion could be developed over many years and could be a real long term historic resolution to the constitutional problem.
The Belfast Telegraph poll is now (at 6 PM) showing 53% would vote for a United Ireland:-
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/poll-the-future-of-northern-ireland-14721135.html
However, I do not believe polls which tell me what I might want to be the truth.
I suspect that this is just St Patrick’s Day euphoria.
For most of the time, the results have been coming out at 48% for a UI, 50% against. This I believe is the more likely result (for the time being) because it accords with the results of the elections.
But there we are. For much of NI’s history Unionists told Nationalists there would never be a United Ireland because they (Unionists) didn’t want it.
We now have this and other threads, where Unionists can tell Nationalists there will never be a United Ireland because they (Nationalists) don’t want it.
This I suppose is an improvement.
Seandoc
“………… It would further allow us to harness and exploit the unique relationship we have with both London and Dublin to our financial advantage…….. !
So; The Old Southern attitude that some Unionists are more loyal to the half crown to the Crown may not be entirely without foundation after all!
We are an island peoples on this Island twice offshore from Europe and we in the South have paid an Economic price for that as did all on this Island. Ten years ago I needed a certain produce and phoned a Dublin supplier. The price I got was much lower than that of five years before, I let it go and phoned the company director lunch time.
Yes the price was right, up to three years before all had come through U.K. middle traders, now he was dealing directly with Continental suppliers. Munich for example has the biggest St. Patricks parade in the Continent and Ireland has goodwill from Germany and France that G.B. can only dream of despite Nato and Two World War connections.
Our farmers and fishermen face problems unique to this island which why for Northern representatives of these Groups the Irish E.U. offices and ministries are often the first stop. But then business and finance knows know frontiers.
If we are to build a New Ireland it must be an open and honest one, with ourselves with Europe and with the world. We have had more than enough of the ‘Cute Hoor’ exploitive politics of the South……. and equally their ‘ Smart Sammys’ Northern counterparts like those advocated! We are collectively better than this, and our children deserve more
Seandoc – I agree. A United Ireland has for generations been an Article of Fate that bears no relation to reality, be it 2010, 1919, 1798. People laud it without really know what it means.
I mean, I’ve been asking ever since I first wrote on these boards, what is the point of a united Ireland? Incredibly, I’ve never gotten a single satisfactory response.
A united Ireland is a cover-all term disguising the fact that Northern republicans have been in a struggle for civil rights as British citizens within the UK. If UI was a real issue, SF would be massive in the Republic, instead of been the smallest party in the dail. With numbers less than the independents.
Sort out your own problems. We’ve enough of our own down here.
Once that’s done, who know what might happen?
Cormac,
I think your position reflects a bizarrely pessimistic and unimaginative position.
Opportunities to rework a society in a way that benefits everyone (rather than perpetuating the gravy train for the elites) are few and far between, and the discussions for the formation of a 32 county republic would provide such an opportunity.
You are basically saying “everything is great here, nothing could be possibly improved – things are as good as they can ever be”
I’m sure you are very popular with your TD and the local developers, but I’m afraid their gratitude will not result in any gold medals.
You are also overlooking the history of the North periodically expelling a good amount of its Catholic population by force.
I do honestly believe those days at least are behind us, but history also tells us that when it does happen those refugees end up in the South – along with the associated political upheaval that brings with it.
Long term stability is in everyone’s interests and the 6 county solution has not worked very well so far.
“Long term stability is in everyone’s interests and the 6 county solution has not worked very well so far. ”
With Dublin or with London? Neither is a bad option. But I really do love London.
“Allas…… A proper Federal governing structure with meaningful power devolved to the provinces could let each of the latter define it’s own ethos, and like the regions and communities. Under this system there is no reason why two communities could not peacefully co exist, each perusing the ethos that it is comfortable with. I have detailed this structure elsewhere. In this context simple question, which would Donegal have more in common with, Derry or Dublin? Would West Kerry, North Tipp and East Waterford have more in common with each other or Dublin. ?”
You’re making slow progress by acknowledging that there isn’t a single nation in the equation, but you continue to sing “a nation once again” in a state of semi-denial when that is no obviously longer possible.
The GFA recognises that there are two nations: British and Irish. The British Irish Agreement constitutionally asserts this, and further asserts that the British nation can decline Irish nationality in any unified entity (“Irish [b]OR[/b] British or Both”). So there is no process there to create a single nation. There is no Orange and Green here that form a single nation comprised of two traditions (despite what the Shinner touts will tell you) but a direct refutation of Wolfe Tone’s republican vision.
What then is the point of unity? It is now simply to cancel the right to self-determination of the Irish nation by making it subject to the veto of another nation. There can no longer be a nation-state for the Irish nation, so that must be dismantled and replaced with a structure that gives “parity of esteem” to the British nation (“rigorous impartiality”). In reality, this will leave the British nation as sovereign (since Great Britain will continue to exist as its de facto nation-state) while the Irish nation gives up its right to self-determination and becomes a non-sovereign nation.
That is not in any way an Irish nationalist agenda. It solely promotes British national interests. And I see no reason to vote for it.
By the way, spitting the Irish nation up into tiny federal groups is also an anti-nationalist agenda.
Garza
I don’t doubt that Catholic Unionists exist however I don’t know where this (frankly ridiculous) figure of 1 in 4 came from.
I’m a Nationalist who was born and raised in West Belfast.
I have met a few Catholic Unionists over the years but they would number less than 5%.
I always laugh at those Unionists who constantly trumpet this 25% nonsense as if it was scientific fact. A lot of Unionists who quote it have minimal if any contact with the Catholic population.
Frankly, I’ll go with my experience of growing up and living in the Catholic community as opposed to some ridiculous survey (if it even was a survey).
Still, if some Unionists want to believe this and it makes them feel better – good luck to them.
Monk – West Belfast isn’t the sum of Irish nationalism. If it was, SF would have a bigger vote.
Jud – I’m only calling it as I see it. And while my views don’t accord with those of northern nationalists, they represent only a fraction of the Irish population. Their trumpting of a united Ireland simply has no resonance in the Republic, so I cannot see how it will happen. Nobody has demonstrated how it is in the interests of my country.
So can we consign the sentimental dream of a UI to the dustbin? A sentimental dream which has cost countkless lives and which the southern governments didnt have the balls to say ‘Forget it. We dont want you. That might have saved lives.
A nation is a distinct race or people characterized by a common descent, language, or history, usually organized as a separate political state and occupying a definite territory. This term only applies to Ireland as a whole in the sense that it do to Malta or Iceland, to name but two other European Islands Nations.
As I do not have a copy of the G.F.A to hand, can you kindly reference for me that section where it specifically says that there are two nations in The Six counties?
In the 1922 treaty The Six Counties were excluded by Britain from the Free State in defiance of the majority declared will of the Irish people freely expressed in the last free all Ireland election of four years before. Even at that it had to be sold to the Free State public wrapped up in ‘The Border Commission’ that was supposed to get back at least another two counties and other chunks of Nationalist majority areas.
That did not happen, The Brits and Unionists of the day did the same as they tried to do with the G.F.A. and succeeded in keeping their Land Grab. In the South to make it stick Senior Free State Army Officers, veterans of the War of Independence and foot soldiers were collectively dismissed from the Free State Army in 1924 when they objected and claimed they had been mislead and and used by the Free State Establishment to suppress Republicans and betray the 1922 settlement.
In the Southern so called Civil War, most I.R.A. leaders of the War of Independence in custody had already been judicially murdered to remove all effective opposition. So shamefull and Illegial was this activity that eleven lorryloads of Free State Army and other records were burned prior to Fianna Fail taking power to prevent the identifications of the murderers or the holding them to account.Forgotten history to most on this Island but not to Republicans who will forget at their peril!
All other political attempts since to come to grips with the festering legacy of partition including Sunningdale and the G.F.A were no than artificial attempts to make an artificial state work.
The G.F.A was grudging entered into by most Unionists/Loyalists politicians that did so in the knowledge that if they did not participate they would bee seen for the reactionaries they were Internationally and also that an agreement would be entered into over their heads by Britain and the Republic of Ireland. They did not believe in it, they only at best tolerated it, they used every device and tactic available to them to delay it’s implementation and then to hollow out the agreement until they had sucked it dry for any goodwill and completely soured it for the average Nationalist.
Whatever of the intent of the G.F.A. it is now regarded as little more than a necessary evil by a large body of Republican and National opinion, something to use and go along with until something better comes along. Given Unionist talk of repartition ( a definite non runner ) etc it is doing little to give reassurance or security to increasing numbers of their viewpoint either. It is a very poor advertisement for politics being the art of the possible!
What I have been proposing here is New Politics for a New Ireland and that includes the Governance of all Ireland. I have not anywhere in my details of a possible decentralized framework giving real power to communities and districts, regions, etc, advocated….. “spitting the Irish nation up into tiny federal groups”…… as you assert I have done. This could be down to a misunderstanding of what a Federal Solution means. However given the overall tone and content of your piece I suspect that it is a deliberate misinterpretation with a view to misinformation and setting red herrings aswim.
What is the point of a united Ireland?
The only point of a divided Ireland, specifically one which excludes Donegal but includes Tyrone, was to create an artificial majority for the Unionists and enable them to gain power and preferential treatment in the job market.
So a united Ireland would have the opposite effect; though, in a PR system like Ireland’s, a well-organised minority always has a certain amount of bargaining power.
Having two jurisdictions in one province is good news for smugglers, benefit fraudsters, parsimonious shoppers and stamp-collectors, but bad news for users of services like hospitals, and utilities like gas, etc.
Their trumpting of a united Ireland simply has no resonance in the Republic, so I cannot see how it will happen.
the southern governments didnt have the balls to say ‘Forget it. We dont want you.
Dear O dear, are you telling me that the Irish are the only people in the world totally lacking in chauvinism? The Spanish want Gibraltar, the Argentinians are desperate to get the Falklands, the Guatemalans want Belize (to which they have no historical claim as far as I can see) yet the Irish won’t admit their own province, even if it votes to join them?
Now there is a school that says that foreign adventures are best avoided: indeed the English had to abandon Tangier when it was ceded to them (1660 approx) because it was too difficult to maintain. But the Six Counties are only up the road.
No sovereign state will happily accept the unnecessary creation of foreign enclaves on its geographical territory. It leads to problems with smuggling and terrorism: it makes the gathering of taxes much harder.
The existence of NI has caused endless problems for the Republic, particularly the devastation of its tourist industry during the troubles. (The two Irelands story may wash with Unionists, but no-one else believes it, so the tourists just didn’t come). A NI with a Nationalist majority which remains outside the scope of a United Ireland would probably not be a very stable entity, so all this would start up again.
Therefore, any responsible government would take steps to ensure that there is an appropriate mood of national chauvinism when a vote for unity becomes feasible.
I just have a question for Monk:
As i have said in previous posts I am from the Falls also and in previous generations of my Family we have had men fight for a United Ireland but as the two states moved apart even they saw it as futile and summed up the recent troubles as a “Shower of Shite”.
West Belfast is definitely one of the most Nationalist parts of Northern Ireland but mostly this is down to the fact that for years and still to this day people there get a raw deal and are not made to feel part of the NI state – we are brought up disenfranchised. In west Belfast you know yourself that the degree of Nationalism depends upon the person and the area and with that we have a varying want of a United Ireland from those who really want and would fight for it to those who say they want it but hate the south?! (perplexing in itself)
My question is this; If there was the possibility of a fairer Northern Ireland where cultural expression, ambition and possibilities were not held back would those milder nationalists still want a United Ireland?
Lets face the fact that it is easier to change what you have than to pull it all down and start anew! I am not wanting to hark back to History because it causes so many problems here, but I challenge you to name one place in the Island of Ireland that has a shared history with us in Northern Ireland. Even Monks post eludes to the fact that in a United Ireland he would still favour Federalism – because as a Belfast man it is hard to fathom your city falling into second place behind Dublin… This 1 in 4 figure is perhaps more indicative of the fact that most NI catholics reluctantly agree with their ancestral ambition for a UI but aren’t fussed on losing out over it which would definitely happen.
Catholics in NI need a few years of a clear head with our thoughts and then ask us about a UI. With the dogma of the church and its stranglehold on our lives (which they are trying to pursue in education to this day), the dogma of our politics and the fact that you were titled a Roman Catholic-Republican-Nationalist and now the fact that we have the politicians who told us we deserved it all and then put on an Armani suit, walked up to Stormont and forgot what they promised – well this has left us a “confused wee bunch of people” who really don’t know where to turn.
The challenge over the next few years is for Unionism to become much more confident about its position in NI and for Catholics to become more confident about what they want out of the land they stand on, not that they automatically see the nearest Propaganda Mural and suddenly find themselves corralled into a United Ireland. As has been pointed out in so many posts – it’s all about consent, If Sinn Fein let the Catholic people make an informed decision…. well for a start they wouldn’t be elected to begin with.
Stephen
Even Monks post eludes to the fact that in a United Ireland he would still favour Federalism – because as a Belfast man it is hard to fathom your city falling into second place behind Dublin
In what sense is Belfast number 1 in the UK, or not already behind Dublin, Cork, Galway etc (in terms of economic development at least)?
but I challenge you to name one place in the Island of Ireland that has a shared history with us in Northern Ireland.
Donegal, Monaghan, Dundalk