“Perhaps for the citizens of the Republic too, the Belfast Agreement is in fact a settlement.”
It is, perhaps, symbolic that, rather than attending Sinn Féin’s Irish Unity Conference in London, David Adams, Martin McGuinness, et al, found themselves stranded on a Belfast runway in an ice-bound Aer Lingus jet. It meant they missed Paul Bew’s contribution to the debate. And in the Irish Times today David Adams, belatedly, has his say
It is often forgotten that unionists are not the only ones who need to be attracted to the idea of a united Ireland. The people of the Republic must endorse a unitary state as well. It has always been taken for granted that they would jump at the chance of reunification with the North, but it would make more sense if in fact they preferred to stick with the existing arms-length relationship.Whatever its faults, the Republic is settled, cohesive and self-contained. Why on earth would its people want to gamble all in some new dispensation with nearly two million troublesome Northerners – most particularly if it were the case that a substantial number of their erstwhile neighbours were being dragged into something against their will?
Maybe republicans aren’t rocking the boat in the South because they realise that the people there aren’t any keener on a united Ireland than unionists are. Perhaps for the citizens of the Republic too, the Belfast Agreement is in fact a settlement.
Relax Cormac – you are a unionist – no shame in that…
“an upholder of the legislative union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland” – Random House Dictionary
Fair ’nuff.
No generation in the ROI would want to go down in history as the one that rejected a UI. My guess is that it would pass in a referendum by about 3:1.
So Davey, which party in the south would oppose reunification?
Erasmus – I wouldn’t bet on it, but who knows?
Like I said, as long as the current situation in the north continues, it will diminsh southern interest in unification.
Ulick – THAT’S a good question. Can’t think of any of them that would like to go down in history that way.
But look, unless you can convince both the unionists and the republic, it ain’t gonna happen. All this talk about it is hot air unless someone comes up with convincing reasons. I have yet to hear them. From anybody.
So c’mon, try me.
Cormac,
I have to say that your commnets don’t chime with my own views and those I hear around me.
“All this talk about it is hot air unless someone comes up with convincing reasons. I have yet to hear them. From anybody.”
Give me convincing reasons for Great Britain to remain in Northern Ireland if the majority vote for unification.
1. Cormac mac Art on Mar 12, 2010 @ 04:38 PM
Cormac, your postings on this issue while not coruscating have certainly been enlightening regarding a certain viewpoint in the Twenty Six county State. Please excuse me if I do not take you up on each and every point raised, it is not that I am backing away from an argument, it is rather that it is a futile exercise attempting to argue with a closed mind!
“ An immoral, and amoral, party like that has no right to government in Ireland. They have no great representation here either, when compared to parties native to Ireland. Their business are purely northern matters, and it is to those they should focus before venturing south”. Posted by Cormac mac Art on Mar 12, 2010 @ 05:29 PM
Now to borrow a phase from Al Gore, an Inconvenient Truth for you, Fine Gael, Fianna Fail, Clann Na T., Clann Na Phobalacht, The Workers Party, The Irish Republican Socialist Party, even the Progressive Democrats can all trace their roots back to Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein it self has unbroken lineages back to it’s foundation year. While The Labor Party had it’s own roots time and again from the twenties to the present it has had direct intakes of ex Sinn Fein members.
“… when compared to parties native to Ireland…” Indeed! A good polemic need not be objective but once it disregards all salient facts, it just becomes a rant!
The objections that you raise to my nomenclature goes to the kernel of the issue, Ireland to me is a thirty-two County entity and I use terms like twenty-six counties, six counties to define what specific parts of Ireland I am referring to. I believe that,……. it is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of Ireland which includes it’s islands and seas to be part of the Irish Nation.
As to your viewpoint regarding Irish National Independence, Sovereignty and acceptance of status quos, these issues also came up during the American discussions leading to their Independence and were amply addressed by Franklin at the Philadelphia Congress when he stated……..
“ If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace, we ask not your counsels or arms. Couch down and lick the hands that feed you, may your chains set lightly on you and may posterity forget that ye were our country men”
As to some of the other points raised, from the outset since I am no longer a member of Sinn Fein while I have taken public issue with the party on matters of politics and organization, I have avoided naming names or disclosing matters of confidentiality arising from discussions with active or former members. The former A.C. member I referred to re the Superior Courts is also following these postings and it is up to that person to join in this particular debate if so inclined.
As to your support for free speech during those dark and dismal days of Cooney, The Cruiser and Donegan et al, thanks. It is always a thing of joy to find that there was yet another who was in disagreement with that State censorship. Like South African A.N.C. comrades finding post apatite that almost the whole of the white populace was working to dismantle apatite from within, I am also amazed given what I can recall of these times that there were so many of you involved in silent secret protest, it is really heartening. In fact given how many of you there really were, I am even more amazed that the State could have found the dozen or so individuals necessary to police the whole censorship system !.
Erasmus – what are your views?
Munsterview – do I really come across as a closed mind?
Yes, they all trace their roots back to Sinn Fein. But they are not Sinn Fein, and have not done what SF have done in the past forty years.
So what if SF has an unbroken lineage? Does that make it hereitary ruler of the nation? The newest political party has every right to be a contender as SF.
nomenclature – okay, lets call it Eire and Northern Ireland. Both of whom are located in Ireland. How’s that?
Philadelphia – Good man, Ben; but ideals are easier to proclaim than live up to. Real life knocked that lesson in, with scars.
I just don’t agree with censorship. Its utterly contrary to why we wanted a country of our own in the first place. Problem is, you have to hear endless amounts of shite!
Cormac mac Art ,
‘if someone can PLEASE come up with at least ONE good idea for unification, I’ll support it.’
We’d no longer have to listen to or read the endless amounts of shite about the topic
!
This would lead to stress reduction ,lower blood pressure , reduced paranoia and probably an increased life expectancy for those affected by the issue
To paraphrase Jack Lynch’s ‘crisis what crisis ‘
Problems what problems ?
There would be a certain fascinating irony if the north voted for unity and the south backed off. However if the north goes for it so will the south. Simple as.
Since first responding to Slugger to support Ms Cahill and getting involved in subsequent debates ( old ways die hard ) I have been writing consistently in my postings that, one, we need a new debate for a new future on this island and, two, that the young, educated populace, still in a daze at the suddenness of the prosperity carpet being yanked from under their feet, had yet to get involved in the Twenty-Six Counties.
Well!, congratulations to The Irish Times, it seems the great debate has just started in earnest in to-days edition with an invitation for the general public to join in. Declan Kibert, distinguished professor of English at UCD, kicked off with an excellent article some of which I have quoted in the following for any who do not normally get The Irish Times. The article can be called up at irishtimes.com
All the quotes, unless otherwise attributed, are by Declan Kibert.
“ Nobody knows what will happen next- not even our leaders. We walk as a community in darkness down a strange unfamiliar road, into a new landscape for which there are no maps. Except, possibly, newspapers”.
“ The people with money have no balls and the people with balls have no money” Sean Dunn.
“ Just a few weeks ago, politicians awarded themselves an allowance of up to E 15,000 a year in untouched expenses. Before that hundreds of the most senior civil servants had their incomes proofed against any pay cuts. While the newspapers were being drip-fed stories of Fas junkets, the nomenklatura was securing its financial future, if not that of the country”.
“ Ireland is presently immobilized by process morons with blackberries and Iphones” Francis Wheen
“ Every time a surgeon is told that an operation cannot be performed, the wisdom of a team of experts, arduously assembled over years of considerable effort is set at nought”.
“Last November The Irish Congress Of Trade Unions (Ictu) presented a ten-point plan to combat unemployment, including a job sharing model. The model was rejected even though it has worked well in Germany. “ I think that most of the hostility came from the Department Of finance”…. David Begs, General sec Ictu.
“ Before the Tiger years, Irish people understood that the real quality of life lies in those things that cannot be quantified”.
The fore coming weekly commentators are equally interesting in that when all appeared to be going well and the Celtic Tiger roaring the loudest, these people while acknowledging the positives of the new situation, were also consistently expressing concern at the erosion of values, the choice of priorities in society, the political system on auto pilot etc. In short they had identified the chickens and the direction of their incoming flight long before they came home to roost.
In as much as my personal opinion is worth anything, I think that this series and the associate debate will be well worth following by anyone interested in past, contemporary or future politics on this island.
The point is not that anyone would oppose unification in principle, where it could fall is on the small print and particularly the cost.
“The point is not that anyone would oppose unification in principle, where it could fall is on the small print and particularly the cost.”
Exactly. It simply will not happen unless sound econmic reasons can be given.
Erasmus – Not a chance. Two different counties, two different views on unification. Can you give me a good reason(s) why it should occour?
Cormac mac Art ,
‘It simply will not happen unless sound economic reasons can be given.’
Not true. There was NO sound economic reasons for Irish independence in 1922 or else they were minimal. German reunification took place not just because the former East Germany was economically destitute but because the state was seen to be ‘politically’ non viable post 1990.
If a UI ever takes place it will not be because of ‘sound’ economic reasons but by reason of sound ‘demographic’ ones . Anyone who thinks it will happen because of any other reason is indulging in wishful thinking .
I understand your line of thought, but this is neither Ireland 1922 nor Germany 1992.
I’m not apply ‘sound economic reasons’ to events of 1922. It was the outcome of a protracted, emotive process that took place with a great deal of violence.
German unification took place in a state of europhia after the bloodless end of forty years of division. But to this day many Germans wish went more carefully because of the huge differences between east and west.
Neither of those cases applies to us.
But okay, I could be wrong. All I want to know, from the start, is WHY a united Ireland should exist?
“There are those that look at things the way they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?”
I’m not interested in dreams – I want good, honest-to-god reasons. Can anyone give me some?
Cormac,
“…. but this is not Ireland 1922 or Germany 1992..”
More moving goal posts it appears!
On the one hand you seem to insist that we have a unique situation in the here and now that cannot be referenced even to even past historical events in this island like 1922 that gave rise to a fractured, divided country in the first place, never mind elsewhere in Europe like the unification of Germany in 1992 that have coped very well with the issue and has lessons to teach from the event.
On the other hand The Department of Foreign Affairs has envoys going to political trouble spot around the world including the Middle East selling the ‘Irish Model’ as a possible solution and that includes the provision for long term unity.
Yes no doubt there will be financial implications: your lack of generosity in this regard and narrow focus on finances only to the exclusion of all else is no different to the attitude that had the sick, the old and the infirm piled on stretchers along hospital corridors during the height of the Celtic Tiger prosperity era. Eiren O’Malley summed it up in his use of the Old Irish Proverb; ‘ It’s easy to sleep on another man’s wound’ for his book title, or to use a more colloquial version F*** you Jack, I am all right!
cormac mac art,
‘I understand your line of thought, but this is neither Ireland 1922 nor Germany 1992.’
I did’nt say it was. But if you step back for a minute or two from the peace process induced sense of ‘normality’ you should discern that the current NI State as a stand alone State would be economically ‘destitute’ and politically non viable.
Unlike the East German One Party ‘democracy’ which got no support from West Germany for the 45 years it existed NI has had a ‘West Germany’ i.e England /Britain to ‘pay up’ every year since the state was established in 1920 .
as to
‘All I want to know, from the start, is WHY a united Ireland should exist?
A good question .As one who prefer a fair repartition of NI I don’t know . Why should a UK exist ? an EU ? a USA? a Burkina Faso ?
Probably because most people want then to exist.
A fair repartition? Fair to who?
The first partition had nothing to do with fairness to the Nationalist and Catholic populace who formed the majority of the peoples on this island then as they still do. The establishing of the Northern Irish Statelet Regional state had nothing to do with the wishes of the overwhelming majority of the peoples on this island or even of the wishes of the majority inside that state.
When Britain was faced with the inevitable they drew a line around the industrialized North East of Ireland held Derry for emotive historical reasons and otherwise included sufficient of a land area to make the area as large as possible without compromising the artificial majority for the foreseeable future.
Just how much this was based on anything other than expediency was clearly illustrated by Churchill’s offer to Dev to give the whole Six Counties back to the Southern State in return for Ireland providing Port and other war facilities before WW2!
Of more recent vintage Wilson at the meeting in Dr. .John O’Connells house in Dublin in the early seventies, offered the prospect of Irish unity to the Republicans present, an offer repeated to Gerry A and co at the secret 70′s meeting also. At heart most Unionist/Loyalists in the Six Counties know this bitter truth, the general population of England consider them to be Irish and accordingly, not an indispensable part of G.B. National identity.
Likewise the British Establishment, while Cameron may try to court their political support to shore up his own lack of same, if he has a clear, unassailable working majority then the concerns of the Six Counties will be far down his list of political priorities save for it’s nuisance and irritant aspect in the U.K body politic proper.
Cormac,
“…………. but this is neither Ireland 1922 nor Germany 1992….. ”
These particular views of yours are not without certain support in The Southern Irish State, they were to be found right through the Northern troubles and with all due respect to the lucidity of your arguments, they have been better articulated by the likes of the late Conner ‘Cruise’ O’Brien, by Owen Harris who was appointed a Senator by Bertie ‘ I won my unaccounted money on horses’ Ahern to say in Linster House, the things that it would not be acceptable to the Fianna Fail grass roots if uttered by one of their own T.D. or Senators.
Connor was not a particularly effective Minister, in fact it was said of him that he ran everyones Department bar his own! His views were so important to the British Establishment that when he was booted out of office by his constituents for incompetence and a lack of concern for their ‘bread and butter’ issues, an indignant (English) Times thundered its disapproval and in their colorful terminology demanded that a lifeboat be send to rescue him from us natives. You may recall this failed politician and useless minister was given a well remunerated editorial newspaper job in ‘the mainland’ to continue his anti-Irish unity and indeed, anti-Irish diatribes.
In fact so anti-majority Irish were the convictions of these two that they joined that other great paragon of democracy and tolerance, Enoch Powell in directly interfering in Northern politics by supporting the most inflexible, Unionist views that they could find. Another sources of these views in their most pristine form may be found in the interviews of ex-I.R.A. man and informer Sean O’Callahan, but then they would be as they are the well rehearsed ‘Masters Voice’ of MI5, MI6, M17 and a half or whatever, who speak with the real voice of the British establishment!
I will concede that Harris was responsible for the line in Tremble’s speech that ‘ The North had been ‘A Cold House For Catholics’ which is the closest the latter group have ever come to getting an official apology from The Six County State for their dreadful treatment over the previous seventy five years, and only then when he could go as far away from The Six Counties and it was possible to be in Europe and so close to the North Pole that he could have also have commented first hand on the effects of Global warming in the Arctic Glaciers.
From the outset of the Northern Troubles when it as obvious to the watching world that the problems arose from a failed statelet, there were but three possible outcomes,
one, the first, the most effective, the ethical and honorable one was to address the Civil Rights rights and other issues in a way guaranteed to produce inclusivity, equal rights, peace and justice,
second, maintain as far as possible the status quo which meant dribbling out piecemeal reforms that were grudgingly given and always too little, too late to make any appreciable difference,
Third attempt to contain the dissenting views and fail to admit the extent of the problem until a full scale urban guerilla war situation existed, then do every thing possible to suppress this war by military means rather than address the underlying political issues until such time as the suppressed populace have shown an endurance to in the words of Terence McSweeney ‘ tolerate more than the oppressor can inflict’ and then come to the table with all utterly changes and relations soured for a generation if not generations.
It has been always the third option for Britain as an imperial Power. In the present circumstances when the political bankruptcy of the Southern Golden circles could not be more transparent, there is a chance to re examine all options and that included viewing and dealing with the Island of Ireland as a single geographical, political and social entity with proper governance and decentralized power to local communities.
In short we can learn from our mistakes of the past four decades and begin with the first option or we can make all the same mistakes all over again.
Just seen this, makes for interesting reading, very interesting reading indeed!
New politics and perceptions are indeed taking root in the Six Counties. The welcome debate started by the Irish Times will also hopefully ignite a debate in the South well outside the usual pedantic uninspiring party politics waffle that pass for discourse. Perhaps down here too we will get a rapid shift in perceptions an engagement in real politics concerning real issues.
42% said they considered themselves Irish
39% British
18% Northern Irish
And on unification:
36% in favour of United Ireland
55% to remain in UK
(Can’t quite find out the missing 9%)
Interestingly on expectations:
Will NI still be part of the UK by 2021?
Yes: 42%
No: 42%
munsterview ,
‘A fair repartition? Fair to who?’
To both sides in NI. We don’t need a disruptive and alienated 850,000 Unionist minority in a 32 county republic just as Northern Ireland might have done better had it not had a 500,000 nationalist minority at the time the state NI was carved out of Ulster . Why repeat the shite ?
Both Churchill and Wilson could promise all the United Ireland’s they wanted but both De Valera and John O’Connell understood that delivery would have been another matter entirely .
What the general population of England or for that matter Scotland or Wales or the Channel Isles /Isle of Man consider in respect of NI being Not really British etc is virtually irrelevant or of little consequence to how people feel and act and vote within Northern Ireland. Remember who is dog and who is tail ?
‘In short we can learn from our mistakes of the past four decades’
The TUV and UUP are not listening . They enjoy continual ‘repetition’ of errors as an aide memoire ;( and begin with the first option or we can make all the same mistakes all over again. The DUP may be in a more amenable mode although Arlene Foster’s self sacrificial offering in the interests of ‘united ‘unionism’ in order to deprive SF of a Westminster seat seems to fly in the face of more recent ‘agreement’ talk between SF/DUP.The Tories will make use of the UCUNF for just as long as it might help to lift them into power at Westminster . Beyond that the grystall ball looks very cloudy indeed.
Munsterview – thanks for #23. It sounds very reliable.
I’m honestly not trying to ‘move goalposts’. All I want to know is why unification should be. If so many are for it, then all I want is be given reasons that might actually make me think “Wow, they are right I am wrong – lets unify.”
Greenflag – “Why should a UK exist ? an EU ? a USA? a Burkina Faso?” I neither know nor care. Let other states do as they please, I’m only concerned with my one.
Munsterview – post 22 went way off line. For the record, I held O’Brien and Harris contemptable. ‘Nuff said.
By pointing out that Ireland 2010 is “neither Ireland 1922 nor Germany 1992″ I mean just that.
Once again, in lieu of virtually all of the responses that have gone before, I await a reply telling me the obvious benifits of a united Ireland. At this stage (post sixty-something) I really wonder if there is any, because none of you have given me any.